Ask the Editors: Should I Buy an OLED or LCD TV? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
I did and what I remember from it is this sentence

[...] our first impression of the 2017 “QLED TVs” is that they look and feel like edge-lit LCDs - with everything that involves.
My comment above about Larsen's article concerned what he didn't say about the measurement of color volume, not edge-lit look and feel (whatever that means).

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post #32 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 06:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Overall contrast is increased by either making brights brighter or darks darker. So I can't find a way to interpret what you say here.
Overall contrast on VA is still 5000:1

If you increase the brightness, the black will have to suffer because the maximum contrast is still 5000, this is what the guy is saying in the FLAT PANEL article.

Of course maybe the new Samsung tech will make it even better, we'll be review for that.
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post #33 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
Overall contrast on VA is still 5000:1

If you increase the brightness, the black will have to suffer because the maximum contrast is still 5000, this is what the guy is saying in the FLAT PANEL article.

Of course maybe the new Samsung tech will make it even better, we'll be review for that.
Please give a direct quote of what the guy is saying.

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post #34 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 06:59 AM
 
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A lcd tv looks unatural n processed to me vs a Oled thats more easy on the eyes.
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post #35 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Overall contrast is increased by either making brights brighter or darks darker. So I can't find a way to interpret what you say here.
You apoarently don't understand contrast ratio. Let's face it Samsung can add all the bells and whistles they want . But at the end of the day these sets are edgelit and it's putting lipstick on a pig.

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post #36 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Please give a direct quote of what the guy is saying.
Here you go

It is really very simple when you think about it, and also easily observable and measureable. A VA LCD panel has a native contrast ratio of around 4000-6000:1. Let us say 5000:1 for the purpose of this example. Whenever a movie scene asks the LCD panel to go beyond that contrast ratio of 5000:1 (which is will often when watching HDR content), the TV has to make one of 2 choices:

1: Boost the backlight unit to full effect to achieve 1000 nits peak brightness in specular highlights (a car’s paint or the sky) but consequently blow out all the dark and semi-dark tones in the picture.
2: Leave the backlight at normal intensity and get a balanced picture but limiting peak brightness to far less than the claimed 1000 nits figure.
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post #37 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
You apoarently don't understand contrast ratio.
A ratio increases when either its numerator is increased or its denominator is decreased.

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post #38 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:30 AM
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For typical viewing, OLED is the best bang for the buck at 65" and lower. LCD for larger screens.

OLED beats LCD for high contrast content. LCD and OLED are similar for uniformly bright screens. Top end LCDs are better for really bright screens like hockey, winter olympics or some animations.

Just my opinion.
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post #39 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:34 AM
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For HDR gaming Im considering either the Sony Z9 or A1E? I know its too soon to tell but who would you put money on in a street fight? Im also thinking about waiting to see if there is a second sen Z9 later in the year...
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post #40 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:39 AM
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The impression that I'm getting is that OLED is better than LCD for most content but what about HDR content? Has anyone had a chance to compare the same HDR video playing on an OLED and LCD side by side in a controlled setting? Most 2016 OLEDs have a 600nit peak brightness. Is that enough brightness to give a good HDR experience?

Sorry, I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to OLED. I have been firmly in the LCD camp for the past 7 years.
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post #41 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Thanks for the kind words! To answer your question, I'd buy the OLED. As others have said in these comments, all LCDs require Band-Aids to overcome inherent shortcomings that OLEDs simply don't have in the first place.
Thanks for the feedback Scott!

So..... Now I just have to wait for the final pricing of the A1E vs the LG OLEDs and reviews of the processing differences between the two.

I hope the reviewers get their hands on these new models soon for analysis.

Thanks again Scott and I can't wait for your podcast analysis of either one of these units, or even better a comparison of the two.

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post #42 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
For HDR gaming Im considering either the Sony Z9 or A1E? I know its too soon to tell but who would you put money on in a street fight? Im also thinking about waiting to see if there is a second sen Z9 later in the year...
If I had the money, it would be a Sony OLED anytime (we should still wait for the review anyway).
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post #43 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
Here you go

It is really very simple when you think about it, and also easily observable and measureable. A VA LCD panel has a native contrast ratio of around 4000-6000:1. Let us say 5000:1 for the purpose of this example. Whenever a movie scene asks the LCD panel to go beyond that contrast ratio of 5000:1 (which is will often when watching HDR content), the TV has to make one of 2 choices:

1: Boost the backlight unit to full effect to achieve 1000 nits peak brightness in specular highlights (a car’s paint or the sky) but consequently blow out all the dark and semi-dark tones in the picture.
2: Leave the backlight at normal intensity and get a balanced picture but limiting peak brightness to far less than the claimed 1000 nits figure.
Thank you.

Notice that Larsen does not say what the native contrast of the QLED panels actually is -- he is just making a ballpark estimate in this illustrative hypothetical example. His two choices do not allow for the possibility of local dimming, which the QLED sets have (so for #1 , not all dark tones in the picture will be blown out, only some of those in the same local dimming zone).

And finally, when he says that the panel will often be asked to go beyond the native contrast ratio when watching HDR content, he is just wrong. The contrasts in HDR content will be mapped to dynamic ratios that the TV is capable of reproducing. That is a surprising error from an expert like Larsen.

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post #44 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Overall contrast is increased by either making brights brighter or darks darker. So I can't find a way to interpret what you say here.
True, but absolute black has more impact that extreme whites do IMO. Thats what I was trying to say. I believe that more content benefits from the inky-blacks that we get from OLED than peak whites from LCDs. Sure, both ends of the "range" increase contrast but its well documented that OLED has the market cornered on overall Contrast ratio. Its infinite. Thats pretty good

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post #45 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Sure, both ends of the "range" increase contrast but its well documented that OLED has the market cornered on overall Contrast ratio. Its infinite. Thats pretty good
I'd guess that OLED will continue to have better blacks in 2017. However, i understand that there are internal reflections in OLED panels that prevent blacks from being quite perfect, and for its part, Samsung claims to have improved its blacks by using additional anti-reflective coatings.

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post #46 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 08:31 AM
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I'm not as technical nor a videophile but my main reasons for buying my LG B6 OLED was I did not want the light-bleed and blooming that the two KS8xxx Samsung models I bought had. Sure, my B6 isn't perfect (some vertical banding while panning a solid background shot) but that doesn't bother me as much as light-bleed and blooming, which I saw majority of the time while watching content. Find the pros and cons you can live with b/c there is no such thing as the perfect TV. Good luck.
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post #47 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I'd guess that OLED will continue to have better blacks in 2017. However, i understand that there are internal reflections in OLED panels that prevent blacks from being quite perfect, and for its part, Samsung claims to have improved its blacks by using additional anti-reflective coatings.
Im sure Sammy will improve their black performance as they go along. Its obvious that the higher-end LCDs like the Z9 series from Sony and even the 940D(I almost bought one) do a very good job with blacks compared to other sets. No question there. For Samsung it'd be nice to see them embrace FALD more since IMO that really helps black levels with LCDs. Thats why I was impressed with the blacks of the high-end Sonys.

OLED does have some issues with NEAR blacks. Ive seen it but it can mostly be tweaked out using some of the advanced settings within the TV. The 2017 models will improve on that too, Im sure.

Face it - were totally spoiled here.
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post #48 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 10:56 AM
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If you currently have a perfectly good looking set, I'd hold off until the dust settles on all this HDR technology. It's still a moving target!
The Samsung 2017 QLED is ONLY the precursor to the true QLED of 2018. In other words, a filler in the mean time, and NOT the real thing!
If you HAVE TO GET a set in 2017, best wait until the reviews are in re all the new Betas we've been presented with.
The other aspect of LCDs, NOT mentioned here is, the sets get better as the hours go on them, the panel gets blacker, plus add in FW updates, the sky is the limit. My HU9000, upgraded with the SEK-3500U, plus numerous FW updates, more than gives me what I need and want. I put the performance upgrade as 250% since it originally came out of the box. It's come a long way baby. It's also a 65" curved set that fits nicely into my cabinet. With everything going back to flat, and thereby making the next set only a 60", and no 3D. Sorry, I'll wait it out until 2020.
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post #49 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 11:02 AM
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"My recommendations for this type of TV include the Sony XBR-75X940D ($3798, only available with a 75″ screen), Sony XBR-65Z9D ($5498), and Vizio P65-C1 ($1900). The Vizio supports HDR10 and Dolby Vision; the two Sony models support HDR10, and they are expected to get a firmware upgrade to support Dolby Vision as well."

Scott, this is the first I've heard that the Sony 940D is expected to get an upgrade to support DV. Do you have a source for that? It would be great news for those of us who own the set.

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post #50 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 11:24 AM
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I can remember when plasmas first came out and some were asking what was the life expectancy of plasma. I still have my Pioneer Elite 150D 60 inch which is 9 years old and still looks as good as when I bought it. The thing is a work horse as between myself and my wife it is easily on at least 10 hours a day. I know OLED is still "new" but wondering if it will perform as well as my Pioneer has. When it goes an OLED will replace it as I prefer an emissive display technology.
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post #51 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 11:24 AM
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The Samsung 2017 QLED is ONLY the precursor to the true QLED of 2018.
Not true...blue materials of significant lifetime have yet to be developed, and there's been nothing shown aside from a tiny 20" prototype several years ago. True QLED is many more years away.

No reason to wait now unless you must have that little extra oomph of color volume on the highlights.
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post #52 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 11:36 AM
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Should I Buy an OLED or LCD TV?

If someone can't make up their mind about which to buy, after they have researched both technologies, there remains only one thing for them to do. Toss a coin way up in the air; Heads OLED, Tails LCD, and go with which ever one they find they are hoping the coin will show facing up. That is the only cure for Paralysis By Analysis.
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post #53 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by paligap View Post
"My recommendations for this type of TV include the Sony XBR-75X940D ($3798, only available with a 75″ screen), Sony XBR-65Z9D ($5498), and Vizio P65-C1 ($1900). The Vizio supports HDR10 and Dolby Vision; the two Sony models support HDR10, and they are expected to get a firmware upgrade to support Dolby Vision as well."

Scott, this is the first I've heard that the Sony 940D is expected to get an upgrade to support DV. Do you have a source for that? It would be great news for those of us who own the set.
My understanding is that Dolby Vision needs a specific piece of hardware in the TV in order to process the Dolby Vision output. So if a TV did not come with Dolby Vision out of the box, then it will never have it, not even through software updates. The Sony Z9D was built with that specific hardware for Dolby Vision, but it was apparently kept a secret.
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post #54 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
OLEDS don't have shortcomings? Aren't we forgetting some things? The Q9 has peak white of 2000 nits. It has no desaturation of colors at high brightness, unlike OLED. (Didn't you read imagic's piece on color volume?) It no longer has desaturation off-axis and, according to Samsung, does not even have the off-axis color shift of OLED.
I didn't say that. I said (or at least I meant) that OLEDs don't have the shortcomings of LCDs...specifically, off-axis desaturation and lower contrast, higher black levels, and uniformity problems. Of course, OLEDs have their own problems, as you point out. The Samsung QLED seems to have made progress in off-axis picture performance, but we won't really know the extent of those improvements—not to mention uniformity with its edgelit design—until we see some reviews and measurements.

As I also said, no TV is perfect; all have strengths and weaknesses. The real question is, which strengths do you prefer, and which weaknesses annoy you least? My answers to these questions lead me to prefer OLED over LCD in general. Your answers may lead you to a different conclusion, which is fine.
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post #55 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by paligap View Post
"My recommendations for this type of TV include the Sony XBR-75X940D ($3798, only available with a 75″ screen), Sony XBR-65Z9D ($5498), and Vizio P65-C1 ($1900). The Vizio supports HDR10 and Dolby Vision; the two Sony models support HDR10, and they are expected to get a firmware upgrade to support Dolby Vision as well."

Scott, this is the first I've heard that the Sony 940D is expected to get an upgrade to support DV. Do you have a source for that? It would be great news for those of us who own the set.
This is what I was told by a Sony rep at CES. Actually, he's my guest on Home Theater Geeks next week. FYI, that episode is pre-recording tomorrow, Friday 2/10 at 5:30 PM Pacific time. You can tune in live at http://live.twit.tv. I will ask him this question again.
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post #56 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
His two choices do not allow for the possibility of local dimming, which the QLED sets have.
The 2017 QLED sets are edgelit, so even if Samsung says they have local dimming—and may makers of edgelit sets make this claim—I don't buy it. They may be able to approximate local dimming, but edgelighting simply can't do real local dimming, not matter what manufacturers say. (BTW, Sony also claims its edgelit X930 has local dimming, thanks to what Sony calls Slim Backlight Drive. But I don't accept that it's real local dimming any more than I do with Samsung's QLED.)

Last edited by Scott Wilkinson; 02-09-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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post #57 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:20 PM
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The impression that I'm getting is that OLED is better than LCD for most content but what about HDR content? Has anyone had a chance to compare the same HDR video playing on an OLED and LCD side by side in a controlled setting? Most 2016 OLEDs have a 600nit peak brightness. Is that enough brightness to give a good HDR experience?

Sorry, I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to OLED. I have been firmly in the LCD camp for the past 7 years.
I can say this - properly authored HDR content looks awesome on my 65" E6 OLED. LG has a 4K demo out called ChessHDR that really shows off both bright highlights AND inky blacks. Its the first demo I show people and they usually need jaw repair afterwards due to the floor-hit.

That being said, I suspect it will look awesome on a high-end LCD too. Maybe the brighter highlights will look slightly "better" on the LCD but I cant see how. And, Im sure the blacks will NOT be as good as the OLED. Im sure there are some demos that will look a little better on Sony Z9 or whatever. I still feel that blacks and contrast mean more to the OVERALL video image than just peak nits. Hence, Im an OLED guy.
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post #58 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanookdi View Post
My understanding is that Dolby Vision needs a specific piece of hardware in the TV in order to process the Dolby Vision output. So if a TV did not come with Dolby Vision out of the box, then it will never have it, not even through software updates. The Sony Z9D was built with that specific hardware for Dolby Vision, but it was apparently kept a secret.
That's what I thought as well. But according to my source at Sony, what Dolby Vision really needs is a certain amount of processing power, which Sony's X1 Extreme processor has. Thus, a set with that processor can be updated to support Dolby Vision. But I'll confirm this when I talk with him on Friday during the pre-record of Home Theater Geeks.
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post #59 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:32 PM
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My B6 has incredible depth, colors, and is bright as I will ever need ...even more so than my Pioneer 5020, which I didn't think was possible. No LCD I ever witnessed had this depth of field, which is the most important aspect to my eyes.

The way I look at it, there was the world's best consumer TV in the 9G KURO, until now.

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post #60 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Thank you.

Notice that Larsen does not say what the native contrast of the QLED panels actually is -- he is just making a ballpark estimate in this illustrative hypothetical example. His two choices do not allow for the possibility of local dimming, which the QLED sets have (so for #1 , not all dark tones in the picture will be blown out, only some of those in the same local dimming zone).
The bolded is still not acceptable. You have a scene with bright specular highlights, like a shiny black car. Even in your example, the blacks of the car will be elevated. Even comparing a really good LCD with actual local dimming + FALD like the Sony Z9, it suffers against an emissive display any time it has to put bright pixels next to dark ones in the same dimming zone. And this is something that can be seen on a variety of content. That's a high hurdle to climb.
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