Ask the Editors: Should I Buy an OLED or LCD TV? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 12:44 PM
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How about Samsung QLED on Black Friday. Perfect time for a TV to go 50% off.
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post #62 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by eclipsegt View Post
Most 2016 OLEDs have a 600nit peak brightness. Is that enough brightness to give a good HDR experience?
should be enough: dolby cinema movie theaters have 106 nits, and people enjoy it somehow

As they say the proof is in the contrast

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post #63 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 02:02 PM
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I just want to add a few things based on the comments I've seen here so far:
  1. The brightness "improvement" on the 2017 LG OLEDs are minimal at best. Having seen the entire line in person at CES as well as talking to several LG reps, the nominal peak brightness will not be 1000 nits. That figure is more for marketing purposes since Samsung and the LED companies keep touting terms like "HDR1000" etc. The peak brightness will nominally be ~800 nits compared to ~650-700 nits on the 2016 models. Marginal improvement at best and one that you will not notice unless you saw the TVs side by side.
  2. With that said, the ~600-800 nit brightness of OLEDs is more than enough to see the HDR difference in the vast majority of household rooms. As was mentioned, unless your room is full of sunlight, the nit difference between OLED and LED (while big on paper) is marginal in practice with MOST content. Falgship Samsung and Sony models will definitely render bright HDR scenes better than OLED but the difference isn't as stark as some will have you believe. In fact, while we are always comparing small window benchmark content to compare brightness specs, many reviewers ahave said they did not see a huge difference in brightness when actually watching real content between an OLED and top model LED (one example: http://www.consumerreports.org/tvs/consumer-reports-tv-lab-deep-dive-best-flagship-tvs-of-2016)
  3. In contrast, the clouding and "halo" effect on ALL LEDs in dark scenes is ALWAYS noticeable from my experience. Even on the Sony Z9d and all of the 2017 LED models, I can always seen the light cloud around text in particular on a dark screen. No amount of local dimming can fully remove it. Of course, it's more noticeable in a dark room so if you are only planning to watch in a bright room (not a theater type of environment) then it may be passable to you. But it drives me crazy so again the OLED decision was easy
  4. Another thing to consider is the viewing angle advantage of OLED. What this amounts to is that the brightness and color saturation advantage of LED drop significantly when viewed off angle. Meanwhile the OLED levels are consistent at all angles. So again, that LED brightness "advantage" is somewhat nullified unless you are viewing the LED from straight on.

In summary what I am saying is that the cons of LED are far more impactful IMO than the cons of OLED. I would say LED is ideal for bright rooms and for someone who is using it primarily for HDR gaming. OLED does great in bright rooms and for gaming as well while being far superior in dark rooms and on movie content. Also, despite what the marketing folks will try to say, the 2017 models are really just a incremental upgrade on all fronts. Even the LG and Sony reps admitted this at CES. 2018 will be a much bigger jump in TV quality for OLED and LED/QLED. If you REALLY feel like you want the best most state of the art TV possible, they'll be options come next year. In the meantime, getting a good 2016 model on sale is not a bad move by any means.
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post #64 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanookdi View Post
My understanding is that Dolby Vision needs a specific piece of hardware in the TV in order to process the Dolby Vision output. So if a TV did not come with Dolby Vision out of the box, then it will never have it, not even through software updates. The Sony Z9D was built with that specific hardware for Dolby Vision, but it was apparently kept a secret.
That has been shown to be incorrect and can be enabled via software.
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post #65 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
That has been shown to be incorrect and can be enabled via software.
Does that mean the UHD players that were not shipped with firmware capable of Dolby vision decoding can be updated via firmware to do so?

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post #66 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idealty View Post
In summary what I am saying is that the cons of LED are far more impactful IMO than the cons of OLED. I would say LED is ideal for bright rooms and for someone who is using it primarily for HDR gaming. OLED does great in bright rooms and for gaming as well while being far superior in dark rooms and on movie content. Also, despite what the marketing folks will try to say, the 2017 models are really just a incremental upgrade on all fronts. Even the LG and Sony reps admitted this at CES. 2018 will be a much bigger jump in TV quality for OLED and LED/QLED. If you REALLY feel like you want the best most state of the art TV possible, they'll be options come next year. In the meantime, getting a good 2016 model on sale is not a bad move by any means.
I'm with you on #2&4. #1&3 I have no experience with =P

Bright-Side, gaming, usually cheaper -> LED

Dark-Side, gaming, extra money -> OLED

Obviously I'm #TeamDarkSide but seriously, is content really going to be mastered to 1K+ levels? because it really hurts to watch at night lol

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Originally Posted by i_max2k2 View Post
Does that mean the UHD players that were not shipped with firmware capable of Dolby vision decoding can be updated via firmware to do so?
This would depend on the processing power of the player. (Manufacturer support of course)
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post #67 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 03:14 PM
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I've read every post where everyone concludes that an LED will NOT do well in a dark room and I just had to chime in to challenge that statement. I own the Sony 940D and on MOST material the black levels are incredible, and this includes the letter-boxed bars with movies with a Wide Aspect Ratio. (I have it in my Man Cave with controlled lighting.) I am coming from a 9G Pioneer KURO Elite (PRO-151), so I know what good black levels look like. The fact is during really dark scenes (like dark shots in the Harry Potter Franchise) my KURO's letter-boxed bars wouldn't hold up; they would turn "dark gray." But with the 940D they remain PITCH BLACK.

Having said that, the comments about haloing are true, though it isn't nearly as bad as what I've seen with other LEDs. My biggest gripe is with occasional light-bleeding into the letter-boxed bars, especially with HDR content. Thankfully it is "occasional," for with some movies (like The Revenant and Sicario) there was zero light-bleed.

The truth is I would have bought an OLED if not for the ridiculous price of the LG 77". I was determined to buy a display with at least a 70" screen and the 940D, for the money, is an incredible display. Even the viewing angle is acceptable (I have a row of 4 recliners side by side and the contrast remains bright).

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post #68 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idealty View Post
2018 will be a much bigger jump in TV quality for OLED and LED/QLED. If you REALLY feel like you want the best most state of the art TV possible, they'll be options come next year. In the meantime, getting a good 2016 model on sale is not a bad move by any means.
Which is exactly why I'm waiting....
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post #69 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 03:50 PM
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Ugh! I can't wait another year plus. Hopefully the difference in physical appearance isn't so great. This way if it's a giant leap in quality I can do a swap without certain people in my house noticing. LOL!
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post #70 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Thanks for the kind words! To answer your question, I'd buy the OLED. As others have said in these comments, all LCDs require Band-Aids to overcome inherent shortcomings that OLEDs simply don't have in the first place.
Scott, you say you would rather take the OLED (I presume LG's, since that is all that's currently available in USA), even if the Z9D was the same price. Have you actually had experience viewing a Sony Z9D in a controlled environment, (i.e. not on the showroom floor of Best Buy, but with the lights off), displaying both SDR and HDR? If so, in what way was the Z9D lacking, in your opinion?

Have you viewed the LG OLEDs side by side with the flagship FALD's from Sony and Samsung?

Another thing that was neglected was asking the person what type of content they watch primarily?

The LG OLEDs are indeed one-trick ponys. Indeed they have the deepest blacks, but they also exhibit significantly more noise above black than the Sonys and Samsungs which clearly have superior processing.

The LG OLEDs also exhibit much greater false-contouring (color banding) than do my Sony flagships. (I have not had a Samsung flagship in a while, because of their stupidity in only offering flagship TV's with an aggressive curve).

If the person watches a lot of overly-compressed cable/sat which is far from clean, and streams a lot of their content, which is not always pristine, the LG OLED's (at least for 2016) do not handle these signals nearly as well as the Sonys and Samsungs.

I have a 2016 LG OLED C6, but I will be ditching it eventually, because it has such poor processing. Even with some BD content the noise can look far worse than my Sonys side by side. Not on all BD content, or every single film, mind you, but more frequently than it should for its premium price and supposedly being "the best display ever." I keep the 2016 LG OLED around mainly to have as a reference black to compare to other displays. I likely will not be keeping it for several years.

Planet Earth is a disaster on my OLED. Horrible false contouring (for example Planet Earth Ep. 1 at 31 minutes, underwater scene), horribly noisy (see Planet Earth Ep. 4: Caves from around 3 minutes in for the next several minutes), etc.

Noise, noise, noise, on the LG OLEDs.

When a source is very clean, and there is no low-level noise in a source or a BD transfer, the LG can look better than anything else, reference quality in the dark, although it struggles in the shadow detail department as well. You can coax more shadow detail out of it by adjusting the gamma/brightness settings, but then you just exacerbate the noise that crops up on occasion. You can cut down on the noise (somewhat, but not fully) by crushing the blacks.

LG processing has always been second-rate, and not top-tier. They are no match for Sony/Samsung in this area, and that includes their TruMotion, which is not nearly as effective as Sony's Motionflow.

Z9D if you can afford it, and make the viewing angles work, all day long. The OLED has slightly superior black level performance, but above black, which is no less important, all the way up the grayscale to peak white, the Z9D is overall better.

The Z9D is clearly better at HDR than the 2016 LG OLEDs as well, although occasional halos/blooming light seepage into black bars can crop up in HDR, since the brightness is cranked to the max, although this is not an issue with SDR content. We'll have to wait and see what the 2017's bring for OLEDs and flagship LCDs. The Sony Z9D is not perfect by any means with its presentation with HDR, but simply the best we have for now, and better than the OLED.

I am a fan of OLED tech, but at present, not LG's version. It's ok on pristine sources, but I want a display that thrives in every environment, not just dark room viewing with clean, noise-free transfers.

The Z9D thrives in every environment, except more than 20-30 degrees off-axis. It looks superb in the pitch dark, it looks good with some light in the room, and as the brightest consumer display ever released, it is great even in a sun-drenched room.

The Z9D (currently) is hands down the best (widely available consumer) experience for HDR on the market. It also does 3D well, although I must give credit and the nod to the passive implementation on the LG OLED.

I hope (and expect) Sony's clearly superior processing will address a number of the issues with the 2016 LG OLEDs, and Sony's Motionflow is much better and more refined than LG's TruMotion as well.

If you go OLED, save up for the Sony version, or at least wait and see if LG has upped their processing game for 2017.
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post #71 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 04:57 PM
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I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, but I hope someone has pointed out that LG with their added white sub-pixel can cheat the peak-luminance measurements higher. People need to take that into account when they simply go by the quoted numbers. But that extra (fourth) white subpixel only serves to make white brighter, and is not able to increase the individual luminance of red, green, and blue.

Quoted numbers (nits) do not always tell the full story. We'll have to wait and see about that ~1000 nit OLED measurement in vivid mode, using that added extra subpixel (which causes inherent problems of its own).

Displays side by side running identical content is best for assessing the particular qualities of different displays.
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post #72 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kleenex View Post
The Sony Cledis in a large enough screen size.
So I am think to get the new OLED LG W 7, what are your thoughts. I was first thinking of Sony XBR Z series 65 inches but prefer OLED over LCD.
Your suggestion will be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #73 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 05:12 PM
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So I am think to get the new OLED LG W 7, what are your thoughts. I was first thinking of Sony XBR Z series 65 inches but prefer OLED over LCD.
Your suggestion will be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #74 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
OLEDS don't have shortcomings? Aren't we forgetting some things? The Q9 has peak white of 2000 nits. It has no desaturation of colors at high brightness, unlike OLED. (Didn't you read imagic's piece on color volume?) It no longer has desaturation off-axis and, according to Samsung, does not even have the off-axis color shift of OLED.
OLED, like every display technology, has shortcomings. Some are minor, and others are more serious. OLED tech also delivers some clear advantages.

ABL, which prevents OLEDs from delivering "pop" with bright screen (higher APL) HDR. High-end LCD's can perform better in a bright room, overcoming ambient light and reflections.

Sample and hold display, and LG's version has no strobing or black frame insertion, like one can get with high-end LCDs, to remedy this.

Image retention. The risk of uneven wear when used as a PC monitor, which involves static content.

The unknown of what a large proportion of HDR will do to the lifespan. The vast majority of content most people are watching is SDR. What if a couple of years from now many are watching/gaming predominately in HDR? The increased output for HDR could exacerbate uneven wear and image retention issues. It's speculation at this point, but there are some owners of late-generation plasmas that are not happy about the image retention they see.

As I already mentioned, that added extra white subpixel on LG's OLED panels presents issues with color accuracy, color luminance, and resolution.
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post #75 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 05:36 PM
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I want to buy the b6 on ebay from a company called ielectrica. Does anyone know if this company is legit?
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post #76 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
Scott, you say you would rather take the OLED (I presume LG's, since that is all that's currently available in USA), even if the Z9D was the same price. Have you actually had experience viewing a Sony Z9D in a controlled environment, (i.e. not on the showroom floor of Best Buy, but with the lights off), displaying both SDR and HDR? If so, in what way was the Z9D lacking, in your opinion?



Have you viewed the LG OLEDs side by side with the flagship FALD's from Sony and Samsung?



Another thing that was neglected was asking the person what type of content they watch primarily?



The LG OLEDs are indeed one-trick ponys. Indeed they have the deepest blacks, but they also exhibit significantly more noise above black than the Sonys and Samsungs which clearly have superior processing.



The LG OLEDs also exhibit much greater false-contouring (color banding) than do my Sony flagships. (I have not had a Samsung flagship in a while, because of their stupidity in only offering flagship TV's with an aggressive curve).



If the person watches a lot of overly-compressed cable/sat which is far from clean, and streams a lot of their content, which is not always pristine, the LG OLED's (at least for 2016) do not handle these signals nearly as well as the Sonys and Samsungs.



I have a 2016 LG OLED C6, but I will be ditching it eventually, because it has such poor processing. Even with some BD content the noise can look far worse than my Sonys side by side. Not on all BD content, or every single film, mind you, but more frequently than it should for its premium price and supposedly being "the best display ever." I keep the 2016 LG OLED around mainly to have as a reference black to compare to other displays. I likely will not be keeping it for several years.



Planet Earth is a disaster on my OLED. Horrible false contouring (for example Planet Earth Ep. 1 at 31 minutes, underwater scene), horribly noisy (see Planet Earth Ep. 4: Caves from around 3 minutes in for the next several minutes), etc.



Noise, noise, noise, on the LG OLEDs.



When a source is very clean, and there is no low-level noise in a source or a BD transfer, the LG can look better than anything else, reference quality in the dark, although it struggles in the shadow detail department as well. You can coax more shadow detail out of it by adjusting the gamma/brightness settings, but then you just exacerbate the noise that crops up on occasion. You can cut down on the noise (somewhat, but not fully) by crushing the blacks.



LG processing has always been second-rate, and not top-tier. They are no match for Sony/Samsung in this area, and that includes their TruMotion, which is not nearly as effective as Sony's Motionflow.



Z9D if you can afford it, and make the viewing angles work, all day long. The OLED has slightly superior black level performance, but above black, which is no less important, all the way up the grayscale to peak white, the Z9D is overall better.



The Z9D is clearly better at HDR than the 2016 LG OLEDs as well, although occasional halos/blooming light seepage into black bars can crop up in HDR, since the brightness is cranked to the max, although this is not an issue with SDR content. We'll have to wait and see what the 2017's bring for OLEDs and flagship LCDs. The Sony Z9D is not perfect by any means with its presentation with HDR, but simply the best we have for now, and better than the OLED.



I am a fan of OLED tech, but at present, not LG's version. It's ok on pristine sources, but I want a display that thrives in every environment, not just dark room viewing with clean, noise-free transfers.



The Z9D thrives in every environment, except more than 20-30 degrees off-axis. It looks superb in the pitch dark, it looks good with some light in the room, and as the brightest consumer display ever released, it is great even in a sun-drenched room.



The Z9D (currently) is hands down the best (widely available consumer) experience for HDR on the market. It also does 3D well, although I must give credit and the nod to the passive implementation on the LG OLED.



I hope (and expect) Sony's clearly superior processing will address a number of the issues with the 2016 LG OLEDs, and Sony's Motionflow is much better and more refined than LG's TruMotion as well.



If you go OLED, save up for the Sony version, or at least wait and see if LG has upped their processing game for 2017.

So you have a Z9D and an OLED? Or which Sony flagships do you have?

You keep using Planet Earth as an example, but I remember when it came out it had a wealth of problems, including posterization and excess noise. It sure looked good back then despite those problems, but it was far from perfect. Look back to reviews of it from various sources and they will mention those under water scenes had color banding. There were also signs of color banding around bright sun shots. I remember it being noisy on near blacks on my Pioneer Elite plasma too. You're saying that the Sony processing on your flagships don't exhibit these faults that were clearly there in the source?

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post #77 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scpmghemonc View Post
So I am think to get the new OLED LG W 7, what are your thoughts. I was first thinking of Sony XBR Z series 65 inches but prefer OLED over LCD.
Your suggestion will be appreciated. Thanks.
I love the look of the TV, but you are paying at least 3 grand more for just the 65" version of the TV just to get the super duper thinness. Maybe a black Friday sale will cut the price by a couple grand.
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post #78 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
This is what I was told by a Sony rep at CES. Actually, he's my guest on Home Theater Geeks next week. FYI, that episode is pre-recording tomorrow, Friday 2/10 at 5:30 PM Pacific time. You can tune in live at http://live.twit.tv. I will ask him this question again.
Scott,
Love your podcasts too and also very interested in this answer about upgrading the XBR-75X940D with Dolby Vision. Also curious about the real differences with the 940E other than a faster processor. I am in the "need a 75 inch or bigger screen" camp so LCD for me!😀 If I miss the live podcast when is it posted?

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post #79 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I didn't say that. I said (or at least I meant) that OLEDs don't have the shortcomings of LCDs...specifically, off-axis desaturation and lower contrast, higher black levels, and uniformity problems. Of course, OLEDs have their own problems, as you point out. The Samsung QLED seems to have made progress in off-axis picture performance, but we won't really know the extent of those improvements—not to mention uniformity with its edgelit design—until we see some reviews and measurements.

As I also said, no TV is perfect; all have strengths and weaknesses. The real question is, which strengths do you prefer, and which weaknesses annoy you least? My answers to these questions lead me to prefer OLED over LCD in general. Your answers may lead you to a different conclusion, which is fine.
Sorry Scott, I was a big fan of FALD LCD and thought I could wait to see QLED but when LG did away with 3D and finally going to see the 65 C 3D, with no real show stopping upgrade on the 2017 OLED, I pulled the trigger on the 65C. OH by the way, paying close to 2 grand made it a deal/
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post #80 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
I still think that most, not all, video hobbyists would say that Dark Room movie performance is their most critical viewing environment and this is where OLED simply dominates the competition.
Except consumers do not purchase a technology, they purchase an actual product. We can discuss OLED in the abstract if you'd like, but the OP was interested in a particular OLED product that he could purchase. Sony makes OLED reference monitors.

LG OLEDs (something in the OP's price range) indeed dominate the competition in absolute black, no question. However, LG's OLEDs do not dominate the competition in near black or above black.

While deep black levels are a critical and highly sought after component of PQ, they are not the only variable that factors in the equation determining the overall quality of the picture.

More often than not, the LG OLEDs and the Z9D will have blacks that look essentially the same. Only on particularly challenging scenes (starfields for example) will the OLED assert its dominance, and it comes at a price. Sometimes there is more noise in the blacks to go with that extra depth or pop:

hdtvtest review of KD-65ZD9:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd65zd9-201610164372.htm

"The Sony 65ZD9 also handled above-black region in a cleaner fashion than the LG OLED. In Skyfall (one of the best Blu-ray transfers of all time), the LG delivered the sequence where Raoul Silva (Javier Bardem) approached the chapel with more depth and dimensionality, but we could see the pixels dancing away in the night sky, whereas it looked more stable and less noisy on the Sony."
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post #81 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
Except consumers do not purchase a technology, they purchase an actual product. We can discuss OLED in the abstract if you'd like, but the OP was interested in a particular OLED product that he could purchase. Sony makes OLED reference monitors.

LG OLEDs (something in the OP's price range) indeed dominate the competition in absolute black, no question. However, LG's OLEDs do not dominate the competition in near black or above black.

While deep black levels are a critical and highly sought after component of PQ, they are not the only variable that factors in the equation determining the overall quality of the picture.

More often than not, the LG OLEDs and the Z9D will have blacks that look essentially the same. Only on particularly challenging scenes (starfields for example) will the OLED assert its dominance, and it comes at a price. Sometimes there is more noise in the blacks to go with that extra depth or pop:

hdtvtest review of KD-65ZD9:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd65zd9-201610164372.htm

"The Sony 65ZD9 also handled above-black region in a cleaner fashion than the LG OLED. In Skyfall (one of the best Blu-ray transfers of all time), the LG delivered the sequence where Raoul Silva (Javier Bardem) approached the chapel with more depth and dimensionality, but we could see the pixels dancing away in the night sky, whereas it looked more stable and less noisy on the Sony."
I got a OLED65B6P at iElectrica.com for a great price and iElectrica has very good ratings unlike many low price online options. Love the blacks and detail.
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post #82 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
Overall contrast on VA is still 5000:1

If you increase the brightness, the black will have to suffer because the maximum contrast is still 5000, this is what the guy is saying in the FLAT PANEL article.
That is the whole purpose behind local dimming. The contrast increases greatly when the individual LED's are dimmed significantly or shut off. Your 5000:1 figure is before local dimming is added to the equation, multiplying the native contrast of the lcd panel. It does not take millions of local dimming zones to equal the emissive per pixel nature of blacks of an OLED. One would only need perhaps a few thousand zones of individually modulated led's, plus a sophisticated algorithm, in conjunction with the lcd panel blocking most of the light, to reach the equivalent of OLED blacks.

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post #83 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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"My recommendations for this type of TV include the Sony XBR-75X940D ($3798, only available with a 75″ screen), Sony XBR-65Z9D ($5498), and Vizio P65-C1 ($1900). The Vizio supports HDR10 and Dolby Vision; the two Sony models support HDR10, and they are expected to get a firmware upgrade to support Dolby Vision as well."

Scott, this is the first I've heard that the Sony 940D is expected to get an upgrade to support DV. Do you have a source for that? It would be great news for those of us who own the set.
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This is what I was told by a Sony rep at CES. Actually, he's my guest on Home Theater Geeks next week. FYI, that episode is pre-recording tomorrow, Friday 2/10 at 5:30 PM Pacific time. You can tune in live at http://live.twit.tv. I will ask him this question again.
I just asked Phil Jones about this, and he corrected me. The Z9D will get a firmware update to add Dolby Vision, but the X940D will not, because it does not have the X1 Extreme processor. I misunderstood his comments to me about this at CES. Sorry for the confusion!
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post #84 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Scott,
Love your podcasts too and also very interested in this answer about upgrading the XBR-75X940D with Dolby Vision. Also curious about the real differences with the 940E other than a faster processor. I am in the "need a 75 inch or bigger screen" camp so LCD for me!😀 If I miss the live podcast when is it posted?

BJBBJB
As I just posted, I was mistaken about the X940D being upgraded to Dolby Vision; that will be done only on the Z9D. We will talk about the differences between the 2016 and 2017 models. If you miss the live stream, it will be shown again on Thursday 2/16 at 2 PM Pacific time and posted shortly after that.
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post #85 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I just asked Phil Jones about this, and he corrected me. The Z9D will get a firmware update to add Dolby Vision, but the X940D will not, because it does not have the X1 Extreme processor. I misunderstood his comments to me about this at CES. Sorry for the confusion!
Thanks for asking and passing on the clarification so quickly.

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post #86 of 514 Old 02-09-2017, 11:39 PM
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And here I am just waiting for someone to put out a TV with good motion handling again.
LCDs have all that spare brightness and it's just going to waste when watching SDR content.

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It is really very simple when you think about it, and also easily observable and measureable. A VA LCD panel has a native contrast ratio of around 4000-6000:1. Let us say 5000:1 for the purpose of this example. Whenever a movie scene asks the LCD panel to go beyond that contrast ratio of 5000:1 (which is will often when watching HDR content), the TV has to make one of 2 choices:

1: Boost the backlight unit to full effect to achieve 1000 nits peak brightness in specular highlights (a car’s paint or the sky) but consequently blow out all the dark and semi-dark tones in the picture.
2: Leave the backlight at normal intensity and get a balanced picture but limiting peak brightness to far less than the claimed 1000 nits figure.
Samsung's 2016 TVs seem to have ~6700:1 native contrast according to the RTINGS reviews.
The question I would be asking is how likely it is that you're going to have something with 1500 nits peak white right next to something else which has a brightness of <0.22 nits - and how much that even matters when you factor in the masking effect of a 1500 nits object on-screen.
The problems with an edge-lit display are going to be with low-APL content, not bright high-APL content.

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An emmisive tech like cledis ,real ( emissive )Qled and Oled will be more accurate with pretty much everything, including color volume.
LG's OLEDs suffer from a reduced color volume at higher brightness levels due to the WRGB design.
I don't have measurements, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least 1/4 of their upper range of brightness suffers from reduced saturation.
A few reviews last year pointed out the "tone mapping issues" with LG's OLEDs but I think what they were actually seeing was the limitations of the WRGB design that LG is using to cheat the brightness numbers.

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I didn't say that. I said (or at least I meant) that OLEDs don't have the shortcomings of LCDs...specifically, off-axis desaturation and lower contrast, higher black levels, and uniformity problems.
LG's WOLEDs have big problems with color saturation and hue at an angle.
They don't lose contrast or have gamma-shifting problems like VA LCD panels do however.
IPS LCDs have the best viewing angles if you're concerned about color saturation/hue changes.
Plasmas and CRTs were much better than any of these.Source

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So you have a Z9D and an OLED? Or which Sony flagships do you have?

You keep using Planet Earth as an example, but I remember when it came out it had a wealth of problems, including posterization and excess noise. It sure looked good back then despite those problems, but it was far from perfect. Look back to reviews of it from various sources and they will mention those under water scenes had color banding. There were also signs of color banding around bright sun shots. I remember it being noisy on near blacks on my Pioneer Elite plasma too. You're saying that the Sony processing on your flagships don't exhibit these faults that were clearly there in the source?
Sony TVs have a debanding feature called "Super Bit Mapping" which can be very effective.
Additionally, LG's OLEDs have problems with reduced bit-depth near black which can introduce or exaggerate problems in a source.
'Purists' get too caught up with "displaying content as intended".
Not all image processing has a negative effect on image quality, and Sony's seems to be the best in this regard.
I would not be surprised if Panasonic's OLED has better image quality than Sony's when displaying a high quality source with all image processing disabled, but I think that Sony's is probably going to end up better overall when you consider the variety of sources that people use.

Before you suggest buying a player which supports this feature or using the madVR renderer for all of your content, it's far more convenient to have it built into the display, and having it built into the display is the only way you're going to be able to use that type of processing for OTA content or video streamed through the TV's apps. (Netflix/Amazon/YouTube video etc.)
Debanding is a useful feature to have for all sources too - not just bad ones - since even a good SDR Blu-ray is still only an 8-bit encode.
And a debanded source can't fix the problems caused by the display itself having reduced gradation near black.
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Larsen doesn't say that, and I don't see why anyone would. There is a very obvious reason why the LG version of OLED desaturates bright colors -- high brightness requires turning up a white emitter. Mixing white into a color makes it less saturated.
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
LG's OLEDs suffer from a reduced color volume at higher brightness levels due to the WRGB design.
I don't have measurements, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least 1/4 of their upper range of brightness suffers from reduced saturation.
A few reviews last year pointed out the "tone mapping issues" with LG's OLEDs but I think what they were actually seeing was the limitations of the WRGB design that LG is using to cheat the brightness numbers.


LCD can't saturate colors at lower Luminance levels ,which affect the other side of the spectrum. color volume should be accurate from bottom to top ,not just the top.

I think that edge lit are less accurate in many areas including color volume.


his article about the color volume test pattern make a lot of sense.


after I sold my plasma in feb 2016 I went through many displays ,edge lits and fald but ended back with emmisive.

I learned a leason specially with edge lits. like the Sony 930 and JS8500. I dont think I grab another edge lit.
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post #88 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 12:15 AM
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LCD can't saturate colors at lower Luminance levels ,which affect the other side of the spectrum. color volume should be accurate from bottom to top ,not just the top.
Yes, it's a problem that I've posted about before.
LCD has limited color volume near black, while WOLED has limited color volume near white.
I don't care for edge-lit LCDs either.
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post #89 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 01:41 AM
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Rrtings measurement ist NOT the native contrast. No VA tech reaches 6700:1 native. About 5000:1 is the brickwall of that tech and that is only valid for the slowest VA types with the worst viewing angles.
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Rrtings measurement ist NOT the native contrast. No VA tech reaches 6700:1 native. About 5000:1 is the brickwall of that tech and that is only valid for the slowest VA types with the worst viewing angles.
I'm not sure how you think that RTINGS would be able to measure ~6700:1 with an ANSI contrast pattern if it's not native.
If it was a full array local dimming set, that would be different, but they're edge-lit.
All their other measurements seem correct. (about 1000-1200:1 for IPS panels, ~3000:1 for AUO VA panels)
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