Ask the Editors: Should I Buy an OLED or LCD TV? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
That is the whole purpose behind local dimming. The contrast increases greatly when the individual LED's are dimmed significantly or shut off. Your 5000:1 figure is before local dimming is added to the equation, multiplying the native contrast of the lcd panel. It does not take millions of local dimming zones to equal the emissive per pixel nature of blacks of an OLED. One would only need perhaps a few thousand zones of individually modulated led's, plus a sophisticated algorithm, in conjunction with the lcd panel blocking most of the light, to reach the equivalent of OLED blacks.
Local dimming has its share of problems though and it does not allow for OLED blacks. Heck, that's what many of us have an OLED. Perhaps the absolute highest end models mostly get it right but it's still not the same thing as OLED black. Never will be. LCDs just can't do it. And if local dimming isn't executed perfectly then it introduces light pillars and other very strange PQ problems that render it basically a detriment versus a plus.

There is no way a non emissive display will ever get blacks as "right" as an emissive display. Just isn't going to happen and even if they get close it requires big money too do it which means those TVs are priced out of reach for most buyers.

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post #92 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
I'm not sure how you think that RTINGS would be able to measure ~6700:1 with an ANSI contrast pattern if it's not native.
If it was a full array local dimming set, that would be different, but they're edge-lit.
All their other measurements seem correct. (about 1000-1200:1 for IPS panels, ~3000:1 for AUO VA panels)
KS9500 HDTVtest black levels. 0.045 cd/m2

Rtings KS9500 black levels. 0.015 cd/m2

Different methods? seems like is difficult to get an accurate reading.

Black level retention is only stable when local dimming is completly off and is of course in SDR mode. HDR exacerbate black levels,blooming,halos. ect ect


Some people even crush blacks to get a better contrast either by using brightness or dynamic contrast modes.


Been there done that.


I don't know how samsung is going to do it right with just edge lits.I will be only recommending this Qled for bright enviroments.


Also while the viewing angles improved, it seems that black levels become progressively worse at off angle and probably visible blooming at off angle.

Last edited by losservatore; 02-10-2017 at 03:29 AM.
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post #93 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
KS9500 HDTVtest black levels. 0.045 cd/m2

Rtings KS9500 black levels. 0.015 cd/m2

Different methods? seems like is difficult to get an accurate reading.

Black level retention is only stable when local dimming is completly off and is of course in SDR mode. HDR exacerbate black levels,blooming,halos. ect ect


Some people even crush blacks to get a better contrast either by using brightness or dynamic contrast modes.


Been there done that.


I don't know how samsung is going to do it right with just edge lits.I will be only recommending this Qled for bright enviroments.


Also while the viewing angles improved, it seems that black levels become progressively worse at off angle and probably visible blooming at off angle.
Yeah - its hard to take Samsung seriously when they refuse to properly light their higher end panels and stick with extremely useless edge lighting. It sucks. Period. Its for kids bedroom TVs and maybe for those that dont care about PQ and stick the TV over their fireplace and call it good. Otherwise....please.... lets get real here. Edge Lighting? On what are supposed to be premium TVs? Like tits on a boar hog!

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post #94 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 08:07 AM
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i didn't read this whole thread because for me i was in the same boat , but let me tell you after i bought my lg oled b6 65 inch came home put it on the wall and turned it on ,i made the right decision 150 percent this tv is stunning ,i have owned a lcd high end Samsung and took it back the blacks and the bleeding on no 4k content were horrible..
i still haven't messed with my tvs settings really, buy this oled you will not regret it the blacks are perfect the pic is perfect and i turned the brightness down a tad its too bright in my room .
i owned this tv for 2 months and still love it everyday i turn it on
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post #95 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ziocomposite View Post

This would depend on the processing power of the player. (Manufacturer support of course)
I was thinking about my xbox one s, MSFT is adding Atmos and audio pass through support, although I don't know if they will add it, licensing fee and stuff, but who knows, I'll add that request on the feature request page and see where that goes.
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post #96 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 09:04 AM
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I would like to correct this thread:


Should I Buy an OLED or LCD TV or should I just be a boss and buy a projector?



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post #97 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 09:43 AM
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One potential issue with OLED that I haven't seen anyone mention is screen size. If I am in the position to only be able to have a screen size of 50" maximum I don't have a single option in the OLED market. No matter how much money I am willing to spend.
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post #98 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kleenex View Post
The Sony Cledis in a large enough screen size.
I'm already in talks with Sony to see if they'll take my country in exchange for a wall sized screen.
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post #99 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 11:45 AM
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.....and yet another shill for uber expensive panels how tiresome 💩
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post #100 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
I would like to correct this thread:


Should I Buy an OLED or LCD TV or should I just be a boss and buy a projector?


Projectors have become very unexciting technology for me. The last time I was truly excited about projectors was when JVC released the RS1 and it's direct successors.

These days, you would think PJ technology would be very different, wouldn't you?

You would expect 4k to be in every projector, anywhere from the cheapest projectors to the highest end ones.
You would also expect RGB LED projectors to be dirt cheap and ubiquitous, and laser projectors not that much more expensive.

I mean, it's only been what? TEN YEARS?

Yes, it's been that long. And 4k is still not even close to being as affordable as it should be for the technology that would benefit the most out of the extra resolution.

It's been 10 years and most projectors are still using the same boring lamp technology that make projectors lose a lot of mainstream appeal because of how expensive they are, and how frequently you have to change them.

JVC does have a projector that is in line with our timeline (4k, laser) But not inline with the prices we would expect TEN YEARS LATER. I mean, the thing is $60,000.

I'm sure if other companies had competed with Sony, 4k would be dirt cheap by now on projectors by now.


The sad truth is that the economies of scale are not there so that projectors advanced as quickly as we'd like.
On the television side of things though, things are far more exciting.

High end OLEDs have prices that are low enough for enthusiasts to commit, and even the cheapest televisions have 4k and HDR these days. (there's a 50" 4k TLC for $300 street price for example)

Projectors still deliver the biggest image. It's just too bad that the advancements in projectors have made it really difficult for me to get excited about even considering one right now.
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post #101 of 514 Old 02-10-2017, 05:55 PM
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I'd rather have a zero black 77" OLED than the logistical constraints of a projector.
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post #102 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
I'd rather have a zero black 77" OLED than the logistical constraints of a projector.
I have to agree. They really are for specific rooms and situations where they can shine. Overall though, nah....I'll pass. Just too many yeah buts and contingencies.
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post #103 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
KS9500 HDTVtest black levels. 0.045 cd/m2

Rtings KS9500 black levels. 0.015 cd/m2

Different methods? seems like is difficult to get an accurate reading.

Black level retention is only stable when local dimming is completly off and is of course in SDR mode. HDR exacerbate black levels,blooming,halos. ect ect


Some people even crush blacks to get a better contrast either by using brightness or dynamic contrast modes.


Been there done that.


I don't know how samsung is going to do it right with just edge lits.I will be only recommending this Qled for bright enviroments.


Also while the viewing angles improved, it seems that black levels become progressively worse at off angle and probably visible blooming at off angle.
hdtvtest reviewed the UE65KS9500, Rtings reviewed the UN55KS9500. Looks not like those are exactly the same model.

back UE65KS9500 hdtvtest review


back UN55KS9500 Rtings review
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post #104 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
hdtvtest reviewed the UE65KS9500, Rtings reviewed the UN55KS9500. Looks not like those are exactly the same model.
My bad ,I forgot that the uk edge lit model is the KS9000.


Black levels 0.039 cd/m2


Digital trend tested the (US) KS9500 in a dark enviroment they have it on video.
they also put the tv against the Sony 930D in a dark enviroment.

while edge-lit performs well in a bright enviroment ,dark enviroment performance is pretty awful.


Edit: here is the video. Samsung ditching fald is a big mistake.


Last edited by losservatore; 02-11-2017 at 11:04 PM.
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post #105 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 01:47 PM
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Contrast

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Overall contrast is increased by either making brights brighter or darks darker. So I can't find a way to interpret what you say here.
The denominator is far more important than the numerator when it comes to contrast (law of small numbers rules).
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post #106 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
I'd rather have a zero black 77" OLED than the logistical constraints of a projector.
Pfft... 77"? I'd have to sit directly in front of it and lean forward.

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post #107 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bberns22 View Post
The denominator is far more important than the numerator when it comes to contrast (law of small numbers rules).
Bingo - deep blacks are the foundation of a quality video image. Thats why plasma was so popular amongst those that cared about PQ. Thats why OLED is gaining popularity. No one claims OLED is perfect or that LCDs dont have some "feathers in their cap". But overall, it starts with black. Get that right and the rest get easier and easier.

After being a plasma-guy and now having an OLED, I could never return to having weak/washed out/cloudy blacks. Never. Cant do it.
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post #108 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post
Projectors have become very unexciting technology for me. The last time I was truly excited about projectors was when JVC released the RS1 and it's direct successors.

These days, you would think PJ technology would be very different, wouldn't you?

You would expect 4k to be in every projector, anywhere from the cheapest projectors to the highest end ones.
You would also expect RGB LED projectors to be dirt cheap and ubiquitous, and laser projectors not that much more expensive.

I mean, it's only been what? TEN YEARS?

Yes, it's been that long. And 4k is still not even close to being as affordable as it should be for the technology that would benefit the most out of the extra resolution.

It's been 10 years and most projectors are still using the same boring lamp technology that make projectors lose a lot of mainstream appeal because of how expensive they are, and how frequently you have to change them.

JVC does have a projector that is in line with our timeline (4k, laser) But not inline with the prices we would expect TEN YEARS LATER. I mean, the thing is $60,000.

I'm sure if other companies had competed with Sony, 4k would be dirt cheap by now on projectors by now.


The sad truth is that the economies of scale are not there so that projectors advanced as quickly as we'd like.
On the television side of things though, things are far more exciting.

High end OLEDs have prices that are low enough for enthusiasts to commit, and even the cheapest televisions have 4k and HDR these days. (there's a 50" 4k TLC for $300 street price for example)

Projectors still deliver the biggest image. It's just too bad that the advancements in projectors have made it really difficult for me to get excited about even considering one right now.
So tell me: where can I find a 100" plus LCD or OLED for less than $2k? Or how about $4k? Having trouble? I'll throw you a bone: $6k?

I'll wait.


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post #109 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Bingo - deep blacks are the foundation of a quality video image. Thats why plasma was so popular amongst those that cared about PQ. Thats why OLED is gaining popularity. No one claims OLED is perfect or that LCDs dont have some "feathers in their cap". But overall, it starts with black. Get that right and the rest get easier and easier.

After being a plasma-guy and now having an OLED, I could never return to having weak/washed out/cloudy blacks. Never. Cant do it.
I was a 'plasma guy'. I own three including a beautiful VT60 plasma. I also own a BenQ DLP projector that was half it's price...

I only watch movies on the projector now. I could never return to a postage sized screen.

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post #110 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 03:55 PM
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Well, we aren't a hive mind (yet), so knock yourself out. I will venture to say there's more to immersion than bigness...
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post #111 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Overall contrast is increased by either making brights brighter or darks darker. So I can't find a way to interpret what you say here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bberns22 View Post
The denominator is far more important than the numerator when it comes to contrast (law of small numbers rules).
Important to what? Important to the numerical value of the quotient, yes, I suppose. But we're interested in human perception, here. Even though differences in very small denominators might be imperceptible to a human viewer, they make a large difference to the numerical value of contrast ratio. So for small values of the denominator, contrast ratio is not measuring anything we are interested in.

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post #112 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Bingo - deep blacks are the foundation of a quality video image. Thats why plasma was so popular amongst those that cared about PQ. Thats why OLED is gaining popularity. No one claims OLED is perfect or that LCDs dont have some "feathers in their cap". But overall, it starts with black. Get that right and the rest get easier and easier.

After being a plasma-guy and now having an OLED, I could never return to having weak/washed out/cloudy blacks. Never. Cant do it.
Once again I feel compelled to chime in. I too was a "plasma-guy," having owned one of the best plasmas ever made (the Pioneer KURO Elite PRO-151). I followed the development of OLED closely and would often drool over the LG line when they first started showing up in B&M showrooms. But I also wanted to upgrade to a bigger screen, so I decided the smallest I would get would be a 70". As I said in a previous post, I ended up with the Sony 940D 75" LED and aside from some occasional issues with light-bleed and some "mostly" minor issues with haloing, I couldn't be happier.

I bring this up because your post, and others like it, imply that anything other than a plasma or OLED will result in "weak/washed out/cloudy blacks" (these are YOUR WORDS). I'm here to tell you and everyone else visiting this thread that if you were to visit my home and see my 940D with good source material, you would be VERY IMPRESSED with the blacks. They are DEEP and INKY, and at times I swear they couldn't look any better, even on an OLED. A case in point would be the movie Sicario; it has many, many dark scenes and the blacks and shadow details are simply phenomenal on the 940D.

I would ask you (and others) to think about this and try to refrain from leading others to believe, by your implications, that you can't experience deep blacks with any other display but a plasma or an OLED.
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post #113 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 04:13 PM
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OK, you can but not without compromise. It also doesn't explain away the impressions of more depth with OLED (I'm going to call that psychological for the most part, but it is a curious observation nonetheless and perhaps related to the pixel level brightness control). Observe a star field, and the weakness of limited FALD zone counts becomes clear. It's another costly Band-Aid to make LCD "almost as good" as emissive. I get wanting to acquire a bigger screen to increase immersion (and maybe even some for some specular highlight fun) but not at the expense of what is lost.
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post #114 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 04:31 PM
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I will admit that star-fields looks better on an OLED, but without an OLED being "side by side" with my 940D you would still be quite impressed with the star-fields in movies like Interstellar and Star Wars: The Force Awakens. Even on the tv series The Expanse the star-fields look great on the 940D.

Let's face it, MOST movies and tv series don't have star-fields, and the 940D and Sony's Flagship (the Z9D) display excellent black levels and shadow details. In fact, I would venture to say that in some cases the shadow details are BETTER on these two displays than on OLEDs due to OLED's inherent weakness of "crushing blacks" (unless you have the settings dialed in perfectly).

In closing, I am NOT against OLEDs, for if I had won the lottery I would have purchased the LG G6 77" OLED. But I do take offense at you and others slamming LEDs and implying that their blacks are vastly inferior to those of an OLED.
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post #115 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 04:45 PM
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You would be hard pressed to find a post from me (and please link me to it if I'm suffering from some momentary cognitive impairment) that claims the blacks of high-end FALD sets (which I am fully aware have eclipsed most, if not all, plasmas) are vastly inferior (obviously, zones can be completely shut off giving the impression of impressive depth), but as a sci-fi fan, I do feel the artifacts with a limited zone arrangement are not preferable to me even if it entails a smaller screen. If a lottery is the only way to attain a 77" OLED, I guess most of us are in trouble.

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post #116 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 05:09 PM
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In fairness, you have been much more "reasonable" than others when it comes to LED black levels, though at times you use terms that SEEM to slam the FALD technology. A case in point would be your post above where you say, "Observe a star field, and the weakness of limited FALD zone counts becomes clear. It's another costly Band-Aid to make LCD 'almost as good' as emissive." The words "weakness" and "Band-Aid" aren't very flattering!

Regarding "winning the lottery," I guess I'll have to make another retraction, for I really wouldn't have to win the lottery to purchase the LG 77" OLED; I could always take out a loan....oh, wait a minute, the WAF would prevent me from doing that!

LG OLED 77C8...Denon X4300H 9.2 AVR...LG UHD UBK90 (Dolby Vision BDP)...Philips UHD BDP-7501...Toshiba HD-A30...Dish Hopper 3...Roku Premiere Plus...Harmony One

5.2.4 Set-up: SVS Prime Bookshelf Speakers (4)...SVS Prime Center...SVS Prime Elevation (4)...SVS PC-2000 & PC12-NSD Subs

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post #117 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 05:21 PM
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Welp, I guess that's my bias sneaking through.
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post #118 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
Once again I feel compelled to chime in. I too was a "plasma-guy," having owned one of the best plasmas ever made (the Pioneer KURO Elite PRO-151). I followed the development of OLED closely and would often drool over the LG line when they first started showing up in B&M showrooms. But I also wanted to upgrade to a bigger screen, so I decided the smallest I would get would be a 70". As I said in a previous post, I ended up with the Sony 940D 75" LED and aside from some occasional issues with light-bleed and some "mostly" minor issues with haloing, I couldn't be happier.

I bring this up because your post, and others like it, imply that anything other than a plasma or OLED will result in "weak/washed out/cloudy blacks" (these are YOUR WORDS). I'm here to tell you and everyone else visiting this thread that if you were to visit my home and see my 940D with good source material, you would be VERY IMPRESSED with the blacks. They are DEEP and INKY, and at times I swear they couldn't look any better, even on an OLED. A case in point would be the movie Sicario; it has many, many dark scenes and the blacks and shadow details are simply phenomenal on the 940D.

I would ask you (and others) to think about this and try to refrain from leading others to believe, by your implications, that you can't experience deep blacks with any other display but a plasma or an OLED.
Im glad you're happy with the 940D. It was on my short list and the extra screen size is certainly welcome. Im sure it performs as well as you say. But, it wasnt for me. I just cant do LCDs and have taken them off of my list forever unless some real breakthrough occurs. I doubt it though - OLED is my thing. As for refraining from commenting, well, the anti-OLED posse has had a LOT of nasty things to say around here. That doesnt mean I have to stoop to their level though. But, its pretty widespread knowlege that blacks are NOT an LCD strength. Nothing I say or dont say will effect that perception. You give me way too much credit.. But, I hear ya and Im fine with staying civil here. I wont ever say that LCDs can match OLED black level performance though. That would be lying. Enjoy your set.

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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
OK, you can but not without compromise. It also doesn't explain away the impressions of more depth with OLED (I'm going to call that psychological for the most part, but it is a curious observation nonetheless and perhaps related to the pixel level brightness control). Observe a star field, and the weakness of limited FALD zone counts becomes clear. It's another costly Band-Aid to make LCD "almost as good" as emissive. I get wanting to acquire a bigger screen to increase immersion (and maybe even some for some specular highlight fun) but not at the expense of what is lost.
Agree - and its not just starfields. Great example tonight - we watched Batman Begins which has lots of dark scenes and puts a lot of pressure on a display to get blacks right. The OLED was basically perfect in this regard. There was detail when I expected it and then there were shots in the caves that should have been infinite black and the TV got these scenes right too. The movie has never looked better. I sure it would look good on a high end LCD like the 940D but the absolute depth and dimensionality would be hard for any non-emissive display to match.

The screen size is also great - like I said, the 940D was on my short list!! I almost bought one. FALD is a band-aid and adds yet more processing and screwing around to get things right. And most FALD sets Ive seen end up having other issues. Maybe the 940D is different. I did see one in my local Best Buy Magnolia center and it did look good with dark scenes. But, NOT as good as the E6 in the same environment. I could tell the difference fairly easily.

We can all agree that these are both great TVs and we are spoiled.
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post #119 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 06:47 PM
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Got my 65C today and what a mess it is, maybe a this is a bad panel, I just watched a hockey game and the noise around ever hockey player is like go back to my old tube TV in 480i, what the heck is going on? NOOO NO I would not buy a OLED! I am hoping I can do a return!
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post #120 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Got my 65C today and what a mess it is, maybe a this is a bad panel, I just watched a hockey game and the noise around ever hockey player is like go back to my old tube TV in 480i, what the heck is going on? NOOO NO I would not buy a OLED! I am hoping I can do a return!
Maybe you should do some research so that you can select the correct settings?

Just a thought.
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