Ask the Editors: Should I Buy an OLED or LCD TV? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Got my 65C today and what a mess it is, maybe a this is a bad panel, I just watched a hockey game and the noise around ever hockey player is like go back to my old tube TV in 480i, what the heck is going on? NOOO NO I would not buy a OLED! I am hoping I can do a return!
I just got my 65C6 today as well and video noise on some Fios channels was bothersome but it was only on certain channels. Most other channels looked quite good to me. It was mainly on SD channels like TCM that I noticed it. HD channels on the other hand looked very nice. I did my initial adjustments on the settings and I really am glad I went with OLED. Blurays, 3D Blurays, 4K material via streaming all look excellent.

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post #122 of 514 Old 02-11-2017, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by greglee View Post
important to what? Important to the numerical value of the quotient, yes, i suppose. But we're interested in human perception, here. Even though differences in very small denominators might be imperceptible to a human viewer, they make a large difference to the numerical value of contrast ratio. So for small values of the denominator, contrast ratio is not measuring anything we are interested in.
absolutely correct
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post #123 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Important to what? Important to the numerical value of the quotient, yes, I suppose. But we're interested in human perception, here. Even though differences in very small denominators might be imperceptible to a human viewer, they make a large difference to the numerical value of contrast ratio. So for small values of the denominator, contrast ratio is not measuring anything we are interested in.
That also applies to the bright end. Double amx bightness or halve the black level - it will not seem as significant as the numers indicate.
However, due to our iris adaption we will be able to percept the difference bn 10000:1 and 100000:1 native quite clearly.
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post #124 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 05:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Got my 65C today and what a mess it is, maybe a this is a bad panel, I just watched a hockey game and the noise around ever hockey player is like go back to my old tube TV in 480i, what the heck is going on? NOOO NO I would not buy a OLED! I am hoping I can do a return!
What are your setting.
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post #125 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
I was a 'plasma guy'. I own three including a beautiful VT60 plasma. I also own a BenQ DLP projector that was half it's price...

I only watch movies on the projector now. I could never return to a postage sized screen.
Understood. Screen size certainly adds to the immersive experience. No question there. Everyone has slightly different priorities or things we can live with or without.
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post #126 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 06:54 AM
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Contrast is about the denominator

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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Important to what? Important to the numerical value of the quotient, yes, I suppose. But we're interested in human perception, here. Even though differences in very small denominators might be imperceptible to a human viewer, they make a large difference to the numerical value of contrast ratio. So for small values of the denominator, contrast ratio is not measuring anything we are interested in.

Small value denominator is the first thing you are interested in if contrast is important (assumes gaumat of both displays are equivalent). A black level difference between .0005 nits and .05 nits represents a 100:1 and is tremendously discernible in a darkened (or even moderately lit) room. Comparatively, going from 800 nits to 2000 nits won't yield a fraction of the perceived contrast improvement. Look at the slope of the lines for the attached luminescence vs visual perception charts, these clearly demonstrate my point. The human eye sensitivity to luminescence is logarithmic, with most of the perceived differences coming from lower levels (see how the line slope is nearly vertical at the low end).

There are two reasons why manufacturers tout high luminescence values:
1: It's somewhat easier to improve high luminances levels (relative to low) in a display. In a world driven by physical laws a 2x increase in overall light output is easier to achieve than a 10x,20x,100x, improvement in low luminescence capability.
2: This is a more more regrettable reason: most people will identify a unit change from 1000 to 2000 as a bigger difference than .005 to.05 (forget about the impact of a logarithmic scale). Display manufacturers can capitalize on this to market their product.

Again, if contrast is important to you then a display's black level performance (low luminescence capability) is paramount. The exception is if you watch a display in a very bright environment, that necessitates high output to compete with the ambient light. In that case you don't give a hoot about black level anyway as dark scenes won't be particularly visible.
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post #127 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
That also applies to the bright end. Double amx bightness or halve the black level - it will not seem as significant as the numers indicate.
However, due to our iris adaption we will be able to percept the difference bn 10000:1 and 100000:1 native quite clearly.
Eye's sensitivity to luminance is logarithmic (not linear) with the steep slope of the curve at low luminescence levels. So it absolutely does not apply to the bright end
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post #128 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
What are your setting.
Fios cable box from 1080i to 720p no improvement. Blu-ray even looks like crap.
Any place to get 4K content? Maybe it's me but I can say for sure it's my not my wife and she wants me to put the old TV back on the stand. Snowy back ground in everything I've watched so far.
Just watched into the Inferno 4K on Netflix, it cleard up the pixilation on the white letters but the dark back ground had all sorts of noise in it standing about 4 feet from the TV

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post #129 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bberns22 View Post
A black level difference between .0005 nits and .05 nits represents a 100:1 and is tremendously discernible in a darkened (or even moderately lit) room.
Well then how about a black level difference between .000005 and .0005 nits, which is also 100:1. Is that also "tremendously" discernible? If your answer is "yes", could we trouble you for some evidence?

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post #130 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 10:00 AM
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Myth of higher brightness

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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Well then how about a black level difference between .000005 and .0005 nits, which is also 100:1. Is that also "tremendously" discernible? If your answer is "yes", could we trouble you for some evidence?
I specifically chose .0005 and .05 becuase they meet the low luminance levels of the UHD Alliance standards (more than 1000 nits peak brightness and less than 0.05 nits black level OR more than 540 nits peak brightness and less than 0.0005 nits black level) I will take 540/.005 (108,00:1) over 1000/.05 (20,000:1) any time. I have no evidence of this but I would bet that the dual standard arises from black level differences between OLED and LCD (at least at the time the standard was created). Its also interesting to note the the content standard calls for a black level of than 0.03 nits, not even meeting the worse .05 standard for display. I have no idea where you got .000005 nits from but the human eye can have a static dynamic range of 1,000,000,000:1, however under normal normal lighting that drops to 1000:1. I suspect, under controlled conditions, it is possible that someone could detect the difference between .000005 and .0005 nits but under almost all normal circumstances the answer is probably no. And it's definitely a big NO attempting to see it on any current consumer display device as none produce a gamma curve with the correct slope (let alone the ability to to produce a clean image at .000005 nits). Here is a good basic primer on the eye's sensitivity to light:

http://www.telescope-optics.net/eye_...y_response.htm.

The laws of small numbers and the logarithmic sensitivity of the eye demand that improvements in black level will far outweigh improvements it total luminescence when it comes to contrast perception. If there are scientific based studies that show otherwise I would love to see them.them.
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post #131 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 11:59 AM
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Good to talk about perceptual contrast and percieved light vs measured which people seem to ignore or have no clue.


Many reviewers say that Oled looks like HDR when watching SDR content.Oled produce an impresive dynamic image.


Nice to have someone that knows about this topic as I'm still learning.

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post #132 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
So tell me: where can I find a 100" plus LCD or OLED for less than $2k? Or how about $4k? Having trouble? I'll throw you a bone: $6k?

I'll wait.

Keep waiting. Because you can't.

Projectors are the only way to get a huge screen. What I said was, that projectors have become a very boring technology to me, that seems to be stale in comparison to the progress we've seen on televisions.
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post #133 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 12:37 PM
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LCD black filters only work in bright enviroment once the lights are off the trick is gone.Can't appreciate blacks and shadow details in a bright enviroment.


When watching films, please lights off for me.
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post #134 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 01:54 PM
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I have no idea where you got .000005 nits from ...
I made it up. And on the off-chance you actually did have some evidence that humans could perceive a difference between contrast ratios with such small denominators, I was prepared to give a new example with even smaller denominators. I'm just saying, in effect, that humans do not have infinitely sensitive powers of sensory discrimination. If that contradicts your understanding of the logarithmic nature of perception, I think your understanding must be defective.

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post #135 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 02:02 PM
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I made it up.
Yes you did..
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post #136 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Fios cable box from 1080i to 720p no improvement. Blu-ray even looks like crap.
Any place to get 4K content? Maybe it's me but I can say for sure it's my not my wife and she wants me to put the old TV back on the stand. Snowy back ground in everything I've watched so far.
Just watched into the Inferno 4K on Netflix, it cleard up the pixilation on the white letters but the dark back ground had all sorts of noise in it standing about 4 feet from the TV
Compression noise. Do you really watch your 65" from 4 feet out? I know someone here does, but that's an outlier, I suspect.
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post #137 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 02:33 PM
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Compression noise. Do you really watch your 65" from 4 feet out? I know someone here does, but that's an outlier, I suspect.
No, my couch is 8 ft, even at that distance the picture look soft? It's like the TV is a 1080 set instead of a 4K, this could be a deal like VW scam. How would you know, I mean the software could be lying!
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post #138 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 03:37 PM
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No way is this akin to the VW scam. I've seen detail I haven't seen in a ZT60, which is a flagship 1080p plasma.
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post #139 of 514 Old 02-12-2017, 03:41 PM
 
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Good to talk about perceptual contrast and brightness which people seem to ignore or have no clue.


Many reviewers say that Oled looks like HDR when watching SDR content.Oled produce an impresive dynamic image.


Nice to have someone that knows about this topic as I'm still learning.
For me SDR on OLED look HDR inside a very limited range (the incremental contrast range of the OLED create in a way, a kind of High dynamic range). The infinite contrast must help.
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post #140 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kamus View Post
Keep waiting. Because you can't.

Projectors are the only way to get a huge screen. What I said was, that projectors have become a very boring technology to me, that seems to be stale in comparison to the progress we've seen on televisions.
I feel the same way about flatscreens: nothing much interests me besides the intro of OLED which is still only available from one manufacturer and still represents a comparably poor value. Add to that my opinion that the whole of the flatscreen market is worse off after the death of plasma and the fact that we seem to have hit the limit in terms of size and I find it hard to get excited about them.
A good counter argument would be that projectors have seen steady increases in performance, resolution and features while simultaneously seeing dramatic decreases in price. Which doesn't sound all too different from what has happened in the flatscreen space.

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post #141 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 11:22 AM
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For me, even the larger flat screens are best for casual viewing. A real cinematic experience requires a dedicated, light controlled room and a really large screen, relatively speaking (mine is 120"), with all the associated audio. I'm able to convincingly transport myself to an alternate reality in my home theater.


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post #142 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
No, my couch is 8 ft, even at that distance the picture look soft? It's like the TV is a 1080 set instead of a 4K, this could be a deal like VW scam. How would you know, I mean the software could be lying!
Though the TV may be 4K, depending on source will only output just as good or worse. Is there a way for you to record/upload a video of your TV along with settings & maybe some examples of Media via TV, Bluray, etc? Mostly interested in your settings.
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post #143 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
For me, even the larger flat screens are best for casual viewing. A real cinematic experience requires a dedicated, light controlled room and a really large screen, relatively speaking (mine is 120"), with all the associated audio. I'm able to convincingly transport myself to an alternate reality in my home theater.


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Can I play the "Devil's advocate" with you?

I have a son-in-law who has a Mitsubishi Projector and a 115" screen with three rows of seating in his Home Theater above his garage (in a "dedicated, light-controlled room"). I believe the first row is 10' away from the screen, the second row approximately 15' away, the last row about 20' away. He also has a fairly decent sound system to go with it.

I have the 75" Sony 940D in my basement in a "dedicated, light-controlled room." I have one row of seating sitting 7.5' away from the screen. My sound system is actually better than my son-in-law's, especially in the "low end" (the bass is "tighter" and more "precise").

If I sit in his first row there is definitely a marked difference between our two set-ups (as far as "immersion" goes), and it gives me a true "cinematic experience." If I sit in his second row it is a wee bit better than mine. If I sit in his third row there is no difference, or perhaps mine is slightly more immersive.

But there is a real difference in PQ, for my Sony 940D's black levels are vastly superior to his and the overall contrast is appreciably better. So, I actually prefer watching movies in my Home Theater.

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post #144 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 12:17 PM
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I feel the same way about flatscreens: nothing much interests me besides the intro of OLED which is still only available from one manufacturer and still represents a comparably poor value. Add to that my opinion that the whole of the flatscreen market is worse off after the death of plasma and the fact that we seem to have hit the limit in terms of size and I find it hard to get excited about them.
A good counter argument would be that projectors have seen steady increases in performance, resolution and features while simultaneously seeing dramatic decreases in price. Which doesn't sound all too different from what has happened in the flatscreen space.
As someone who sold his BenQ W1070 and bought an LG 65 E6P, I can say that I do not miss my projector at all, and will never go back. The quality of the image is not even in the same universe. I do miss having a 120" screen, but would not trade the PQ. I also recognize that the W1070 is an entry level DLP with horrible contrast, but even if we're talking about a top end JVC, you'd need to put it in a specifically treated room to get the most out of it, and even in the best treated room, a JVC would still not produce a better picture than an OLED.

Projectors have not seen much in terms of improvements to lowered prices. Real 4k Projectors are still around $30k and they don't even have laser light sources. To get that you need to spend in the $50-60k range. The lumen outputs are still basically the same as well, which makes slapping the HDR label on them, disingenuous to say the least...

Many parts of a PJ will come down in price over time, but the one thing that never does, is the cost of a quality lens. Because of that, the prices of a PJ will ever only fall so far, and it takes a really good lens to do reference quality 4k.

A 100" OLED will likely be under $20k before a JVC 4k HDR PJ with a laser light source is, and the OLED would still win in PQ, so I don't see any scenario that would make me go back to a PJ.
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post #145 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
Can I play the "Devil's advocate" with you?

I have a son-in-law who has a Mitsubishi Projector and a 115" screen with three rows of seating in his Home Theater above his garage (in a "dedicated, light-controlled room"). I believe the first row is 10' away from the screen, the second row approximately 15' away, the last row about 20' away. He also has a fairly decent sound system to go with it.

I have the 75" Sony 940D in my basement in a "dedicated, light-controlled room." I have one row of seating sitting 7.5' away from the screen. My sound system is actually better than my son-in-law's, especially in the "low end" (the bass is "tighter" and more "precise").

If I sit in his first row there is definitely a marked difference between our two set-ups (as far as "immersion" goes), and it gives me a true "cinematic experience." If I sit in his second row it is a wee bit better than mine. If I sit in his third row there is no difference, or perhaps mine is slightly more immersive.

But there is a real difference in PQ, for my Sony 940D's black levels are vastly superior to his and the overall contrast is appreciably better. So, I actually prefer watching movies in my Home Theater.
I agree with this and have become accustomed to very good PQ which means intense contrast & deep blacks. I have yet to get such an experience in any theater/projector setup Ive tried or watched. Screen size is great, dont get me wrong. But Id rather watch movies at home with my current setup. Just sit closer and the effect is pretty close to a larger screen from further away. The sound is better too, IMO.

And then the 3D performance of the E6 really pushed it over the top

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post #146 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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No, my couch is 8 ft, even at that distance the picture look soft? It's like the TV is a 1080 set instead of a 4K, this could be a deal like VW scam. How would you know, I mean the software could be lying!
Try turning up the Sharpness user control and see if it looks better. In olden days, guides to setting Sharpness would always recommend setting Sharpness to 0, because any greater value would result in unpleasant ringing at edges. But some modern Sharpness controls work better. If a higher setting for Sharpness looks ugly, you can always turn it back down.

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post #147 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 12:49 PM
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Try turning up the Sharpness user control and see if it looks better. In olden days, guides to setting Sharpness would always recommend setting Sharpness to 0, because any greater value would result in unpleasant ringing at edges. But some modern Sharpness controls work better. If a higher setting for Sharpness looks ugly, you can always turn it back down.
Not in the case of the C6 turning sharpness up will add artifacts and actually make cable look worse.

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post #148 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 03:06 PM
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Found out why I got a price close too 2 grand, on my 65C6, a price that BB choked on, I guess you pay a high price to be able to return it, well a least once? So far the panel is excellent, maybe I need to adjust something, just have not had time to do what I wanted with adjustments.
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post #149 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
I just got my 65C6 today as well and video noise on some Fios channels was bothersome but it was only on certain channels. Most other channels looked quite good to me. It was mainly on SD channels like TCM that I noticed it. HD channels on the other hand looked very nice. I did my initial adjustments on the settings and I really am glad I went with OLED. Blurays, 3D Blurays, 4K material via streaming all look excellent.
Blu-ray 3D was the first ting I watched and it had no noticeable noise and the 3D was out standing, when I went to none 3d and TV, noise showed up big time.
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post #150 of 514 Old 02-13-2017, 03:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Blu-ray 3D was the first ting I watched and it had no noticeable noise and the 3D was out standing, when I went to none 3d and TV, noise showed up big time.
The first week with my OLED, I complained A LOT about noise (probably my first 100 comments were about noise).

Now, I can't see it and the TV look magnificent.

Give it some time and if you still think it look bad after 2 weeks, bring it back.
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