2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'd vote for Movie mode (or whatever it's called for a given brand) versus Standard mode. Enthusiasts usually don't get calibrations, but they do seek out optimal settings. How close to properly calibrated Movie mode gets is an interesting metric.
I prefer standard mode on my TVs. Movie modes tend to make things look yellowy to me. I agree most probably use one of the movie modes.
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post #512 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pkeegan View Post
If I'm pleased with the image I've adjusted in, what will a calibration do that's worth $400?
exactly my thoughts too.
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post #513 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 09:46 AM
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OK a PA system is being set up, should be able to hear the presenters soon.
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post #514 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I still don't understand that either. With the cost of most of the flagship displays, and the wild west of SDR and HDR now, it amazes me people won't pull $400 out of their wallet for an accurate image.
My TV cost $6K and I didn't have it professionally calibrated. Glad I didn't. Twice it reset to factory defaults. I would have thrown $400 down the toilet.

I usually try settings from other owners, try it out for a while, and invariably go back to the default settings. The TV makers have a huge incentive for their TVs to look proper out of the box.
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post #515 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Just because someone has money to burn, doesn't mean they actually know anything about what they're spending it on. For example, just cause youre some rich guy that can afford a sports car and buys it just because you can, doesn't mean you know how to drive like a professional race car driver or even know what's under the hood. They buy it because it's nice and expensive and can brag about it.

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post #516 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I prefer standard mode on my TVs. Movie modes tend to make things look yellowy to me. I agree most probably use one of the movie modes.
With the exception of some HDR-specific differences, the picture modes are essentially named collections of presets. If your settings are identical apart from picture mode, SDR content should be indistinguishable from one picture mode to the other. You'll see differences in how HDR tone mapping is applied, but those differences apply to light levels. Your color balance and white point shouldn't be affected.

@jrref can either confirm this or tell you how I'm wrong. Either way, one of us should learn something.

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My TV cost $6K and I didn't have it professionally calibrated. Glad I didn't. Twice it reset to factory defaults. I would have thrown $400 down the toilet.
I'm sure your calibrator would have given you a hard copy of the settings he tweaked and showed you how to reapply them in case of such an eventuality. Or you could just have him show you, and you could snap photos with your phone for future reference.

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post #517 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Strobel View Post
Plenty of people buying high-end TVs wouldn't even know that's something they could do, no less should do. Many just want the satisfaction or bragging rights that come with believing they have 'best' hardware. And if they aren't also in touch with the enthusiast community, they likely wouldn't know who the 'good' calibrators are anyway. Is it worth $400+ if you don't know that the guy's going to do a good enough job that the results will be noticeably better? Does Joe "the sales guy told me this TV is the best" Shmoe know to ask whether the guy will calibrate his scope-y doodad with a radiospectrowhatzit?



Point being, it's often a matter of (reasonable, understandable) ignorance rather than indifference.



The people following the shootout are the most likely to have calibrated sets, and the people who are least likely to have calibrated sets are also the least likely to even know about the shootout. That, combined with the inherent variance in out-of-box accuracy, makes it a dubious metric in my view. It'd be more useful if any of the sets being evaluated were known to have a particularly poor track record of out-of-box accuracy, but I don't believe that's the case (please correct me if I'm wrong). There's not enough time to evaluate every aspect of the TVs, so best to focus on a few keys areas under optimal conditions.

This was definitely the case for me. I came here a couple of years ago when I was trying to make my first TV purchase out of college, where I learned (and continue learning) a ton about different technologies and such (which has been great). Before coming here, I didn't even know TV calibration was really a "thing." After getting advice here and buying my TV, people at BB talked to me about getting my TV cal'd there after a couple hundred hours. Coming here, I knew people generally did not suggest using BB for your cal. So not only did I not know that cal was a thing in the first place, but that the quality is wide ranging too.

When you have been in an enthusiast community for so long, it can be easy to forget just how much things we care about and think about just don't cross the minds of people not involved. I'm naturally curious, technical in nature (my schooling/career is technical), and try to research whenever I make a big purchase, so it was very natural for me to seek out a place like this forum, but that's definitely not the case for most people, IME.


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post #518 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by pkeegan View Post
If I'm pleased with the image I've adjusted in, what will a calibration do that's worth $400?
Most important is whether you like your picture or not, but a good calibration will make a great TV's PQ look dramatically better. For a lot of people that's worth $400. If accuracy is important, then you will want to get it calibrated, or invest in the gear to DIY. Otherwise enjoy the PQ as is.

But keep this in mind: Most likely the colors and grey scale will be inaccurate and out of balance. The basic settings; i.e. color, tint, brightness, etc. will not correct that problem. For example, if the color red is running hot, when you lower the basic color or picture setting, it will reduce red output, but also reduce green and blue - which maybe were tracking close - but now red is better, but blue and green are off.

The only way to tell how well your TV is performing is to put a meter on it and run through all the various tests with specialized patterns. The software will tell you how close things are - or not. The human eye will detect if the errors are over 3%. Most TV's out of the box have errors exceeding 5%.

This is very simplified - but you basically go into the advanced adjustments where you have discrete grey scale and color controls and work on it until the scans indicate that the errors are under 3%. If you don't have a meter and appropriate software, you have no business messing with the advanced settings - but that's where the magic takes place.

That's why you get your TV calibrated - so that you get the best PQ that you display can muster.
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post #519 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:21 AM
 
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I can tell you now from the first clip, this is coming down to the A1 and C7.. the LEDs can't even compete on the first Planet Earth image.
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post #520 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:23 AM
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Are they going to stream on livestream like previous years?
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post #521 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:40 AM
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Does anyone know what time the shootout starts tomorrow?
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post #522 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I can tell you now from the first clip, this is coming down to the A1 and C7.. the LEDs can't even compete on the first Planet Earth image.

You don't think the Z9D will fair better when the HDR content is mastered higher than 600 nits?

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post #523 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:53 AM
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Are they going to stream on livestream like previous years?
Yeah, I didn't see a link for it.
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post #524 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Strobel View Post
I'm sure your calibrator would have given you a hard copy of the settings he tweaked and showed you how to reapply them in case of such an eventuality. Or you could just have him show you, and you could snap photos with your phone for future reference.
Yep, not like the old days where you need a super secret decoder ring to get to the settings. You have them on a spreadsheet or doc, and re enter if you need to.
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post #525 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Coming back to you as promised with the definitive information from SONY... Here's what they've said:

"Yes, you are correct that all of the Sony television models you [we] listed [namely ZD9/Z9D, A1E, 930E and 940E] contain the Dolby Vision capable SoC. All Sony televisions that support Dolby Vision will all be using hardware to decode Dolby Vision. No televisions will be using softare to decode [Dolby Vision]."

As a point of interest, we also have succeeded in obtaining official confirmation that the number of local dimming zones with respect to the ZD9/Z9D models: "number over 600 with the 65-inch [ZD9/Z9D], number significantly more than that with the 75-inch, and number significantly even more than that with the 100-inch" so it would appear with respect to the different screen sizes of ZD9/Z9D you are obtaining not just the benefit of a larger screen size but also significantly more local dimming zones, which kinda explains why we've noticed the 75" seems to perform better than the 65" and the 100" is better still... So it should be noted that with respect to this shootout the performance of the 65" size Sony ZD9/Z9D being tested and evaluated is not entirely representative of the performance of the 75" or 100" sizes, as the larger sizes will comparatively yield superior performance. Something worth considering.
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I can tell you now from the first clip, this is coming down to the A1 and C7.. the LEDs can't even compete on the first Planet Earth image.
... It is a known fact that there is differences in motion performance between the 65" and 75" Sony Z9D due to different panels used for the different sizes (this has been confirmed by owners, including myself, and even recognized by a professional and well known review site). It is unfortunate that a 65" Z9D is representing this technology and brand at the Shootout ... "But it is what it is". So regardless the outcome I am more then content to sit back and enjoy watching my tv which is the most important thing regarding this form of entertainment !
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post #526 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:57 AM
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You don't think the Z9D will fair better when the HDR content is mastered higher than 600 nits?
This is the only chance the Z9D may get a higher score on anything. The fact it can still do 3D should factor in a total score but alas it is not.

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... It is a known fact that there is differences in motion performance between the 65" and 75" Sony Z9D due to different panels used for the different sizes (this has been confirmed by owners, including myself, and even recognized by a professional and well known review site). It is unfortunate that a 65" Z9D is representing this technology and brand at the Shootout ... "But it is what it is". So regardless the outcome I am more then content to sit back and enjoy watching my tv which is the most important thing regarding this form of entertainment !
It is a shame that the 75 Z9D isn't a part of this shootout considering the panel seems to have better results than the 65.
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post #527 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 10:59 AM
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... It is a known fact that there is differences in motion performance between the 65" and 75" Sony Z9D due to different panels used for the different sizes (this has been confirmed by owners, including myself, and even recognized by a professional and well known review site). It is unfortunate that a 65" Z9D is representing this technology and brand at the Shootout ... "But it is what it is". So regardless the outcome I am more then content to sit back and enjoy watching my tv which is the most important thing regarding this form of entertainment !
Yeah, and OLED's have better uniformity overall on the 55", is what it is. Pick one size screen for all participants, and race whatcha brung.

No one should focus on winner's and losers, all these displays (except for the sidelit samsung) are good.
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post #528 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I prefer standard mode on my TVs. Movie modes tend to make things look yellowy to me. I agree most probably use one of the movie modes.
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I usually try settings from other owners, try it out for a while, and invariably go back to the default settings. The TV makers have a huge incentive for their TVs to look proper out of the box.
If things look yellowy to you, you are not alone - pretty common. There are three possibilities that come to mind.

1) Most often, you've gotten used to watching everything with a color temp setting that's cooler than the D65 ( 6500K) standard. It takes about two weeks to get used to the warmer temp setting.

2) Your RGB balance in the grey scale part of the picture is way off - which is casting a yellow tint throughout the picture as it sits under the color composition layer.

3) A certain type of color blindness where your blue receptor count is lower than average. If that's the case, when you step outside, the world probably looks a bit yellowy as well. There are actually calibration workflows that can compensate for this, but you will be the only one who can stand to watch the TV afterwards.
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post #529 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Yeah, and OLED's have better uniformity overall on the 55", is what it is. Pick one size screen for all participants, and race whatcha brung.

No one should focus on winner's and losers, all these displays (except for the sidelit samsung) are good.
I Have to give some pros to samsung do to color volume and AR coating. It may not look like a winner but it have some good points.
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post #530 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Strobel View Post


I'm sure your calibrator would have given you a hard copy of the settings he tweaked and showed you how to reapply them in case of such an eventuality. Or you could just have him show you, and you could snap photos with your phone for future reference.
A decent pro-calibrator also will give you his mailadress or phonenumber incase there are problems...he might even come back and correct errors..
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i wonder if any manufacturer reps will be present and can give some insight into the dark band/jail bar issue we've seen plague all 2017 oleds.
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post #532 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
If things look yellowy to you, you are not alone - pretty common. There are three possibilities that come to mind.

1) Most often, you've gotten used to watching everything with a color temp setting that's cooler than the D65 ( 6500K) standard. It takes about two weeks to get used to the warmer temp setting.

2) Your RGB balance in the grey scale part of the picture is way off - which is casting a yellow tint throughout the picture as it sits under the color composition layer.

3) A certain type of color blindness where your blue receptor count is lower than average. If that's the case, when you step outside, the world probably looks a bit yellowy as well. There are actually calibration workflows that can compensate for this, but you will be the only one who can stand to watch the TV afterwards.
1) No. I've used movie mode for months at a time in the past and I always thought things looked yellow. I never got used to it.
2) Maybe. But normal mode doesn't look yellow. It looks the closest to reality.
3) No. Outside doesn't look like movie mode.

I think movie modes just crank up the yellow and/or decrease the other colors. My guess is it's easier on the eyes with the lights off.
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post #533 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Does anyone know what time the shootout starts tomorrow?
The shootout runs from Noon to 5pm on Wednesday, and 9am to 2pm on Thursday. The results will be announced at 2:30pm on Thursday.
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post #534 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Strobel View Post
I'm sure your calibrator would have given you a hard copy of the settings he tweaked and showed you how to reapply them in case of such an eventuality. Or you could just have him show you, and you could snap photos with your phone for future reference.
One time it happened after a big service pack update. Everything reverted back to default. And the image looked different using the same default settings. They did something to improve the image. So, maybe I could have re-applied the calibration and gotten the same improvement, but maybe the TV would require a new calibration.
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post #535 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
It is a shame that the 75 Z9D isn't a part of this shootout considering the panel seems to have better results than the 65.
Then you have the problem, all things being equal, the 65" image will look sharper.
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post #536 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:40 AM
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I just picked this up off the Live Stream web site


Value Electronics
Our live webcast will begin again @ 1:30PM EST sharp today!
Value Electronics TV Shootout channel pits major consumer electronics manufacturer's flagship 4K Ultra HD TV offerings and compares their picture quality in order to crown the king of TV.



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post #537 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:42 AM
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So are they streaming this? I see no links.

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post #538 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:43 AM
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I just picked this up off the Live Stream web site





Value Electronics

Our live webcast will begin again @ 1:30PM EST sharp today!

Value Electronics TV Shootout channel pits major consumer electronics manufacturer's flagship 4K Ultra HD TV offerings and compares their picture quality in order to crown the king of TV.






.


Can you post the link

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post #539 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
1) No. I've used movie mode for months at a time in the past and I always thought things looked yellow. I never got used to it.
2) Maybe. But normal mode doesn't look yellow. It looks the closest to reality.
3) No. Outside doesn't look like movie mode.

I think movie modes just crank up the yellow and/or decrease the other colors. My guess is it's easier on the eyes with the lights off.
I am with you on this and I have always used STD. as movie looks like it has a haze over everything.

Nothing is so firmly believed as that which least is known
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post #540 of 3546 Old 07-12-2017, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert9674 View Post
Can you post the link
https://livestream.com/accounts/632436



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