2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 41 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1201 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:35 AM
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Not interested in beating this dead horse with you anymore or your windmill-tilting. You're not the final authority on these topics no matter how convinced you are of the objectivity of your personal lab testing. As I am more impressed by 3D and what 8+ million zones can do for blackout viewing (and the flexibility to watch at wider angles), I can extrapolate from the 940D comparison that I made the right decision on the 65" screen (the 77" uniformity is the only thing that, again, gives me pause). The processing differences are overrated especially at 10 feet away. I don't need your biased comparison to convince me of anything. Good day.
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post #1202 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Everyone can take the "shootout" PR the way they wish, but...

The bad frame posterization/black crush/detail issue Vincent pointed out in The Revenant frame with the '17 LG, and movies like Arrival and T2 Trainspotting 4K UHD are very real... .
Agreed that scene in The Revenant looked awful on the C7 but earlier Vincent had said that shadow detail was only very marginally better on the Sony and that with heavily compressed dark scenes the Sony was slightly cleaner but showed less depth and dimensionality than the C7 and that he preferred the LG approach.
I suppose it's a matter of you pay your money and take your choice.
I chose the B7 because of its tone mapping approach that tends to retain highlight detail (at the expense of overall brightness in mixed scenes),higher brightness in full screen bright scenes with less aggressive ABL and the fact that the screen is vertical and not leaning back. I just hated that slope, the TV looks like a drunk assembled it ! (maybe I did. )
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post #1203 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:45 AM
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There is also obvious banding/posterization in the standard opening intro and closing of every episode of PE II, unless you crush the blacks.

Did they bother to show any PE II scenes like this at the shootout?
yes

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...for members like Ken and others for the purist perspective, the E7 is the better choice only because the fact the A1 cleans up source blemishes without a way to turn that off.

...

The only reason I accept the result is the BVM-X300 showed that PEII source banding, the E7 did, the A1 "fixed" it... if 1:1 reference is the contest, the E7 won.
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post #1204 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:44 AM
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What a load! I don't necessarily choose a brand to be a fanboy of but the A1E should've won. It features all the benefits of the C7 but with better color gradient and motion handling.
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post #1205 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:47 AM
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What a load! I don't necessarily choose a brand to be a fanboy of but the A1E should've won.
Thankyou for your opinion.

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post #1206 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Really just for the improvements that have been seen in the 2017 series.
I know you are no 3D enthusiast, as I am. When I had a few friends over too watch a hockey game on my new 65C6, I also played Avatar in 3D and the WOW effect set in on the 3D movie.
Good luck with the 77G7.
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post #1207 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:40 AM
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And as this post and others over the last couple of pages shows, the Sony guys are upset and rebelling. Scoring in the past done by attendees? No good, the voters are biased if your display didn't win. Scoring done by industry professionals? No good if your display didn't win, the categories were wrong. Man this gets tiring.

Personally I'll never understand this. If you like the Sony, who cares how the voting went? Likewise the LG. Why would you be so offended? If you attended the shootout like I did, I saw enough to make up my mind without even waiting for the scoring.

Have some faith in your own convictions and don't insist on getting affirmation from others. They're both great displays.

BTW, motion tests were scored!
Totally agree. I own the Sony, and could give 2 *****s if it came in last. I love it. Whats up with the people crying over loosing?

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post #1208 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by HitchcockBirds View Post
What a load! I don't necessarily choose a brand to be a fanboy of but the A1E should've won. It features all the benefits of the C7 but with better color gradient and motion handling.
But with tone mapping that clips highlights (as oppossed to the C7 which retaines much more detail-albeit at the expense of overall brightness) and a noticeably darker presentation of scenes that are overall very bright because of more aggressive light limiting . It's dark scene handling of highly compressed material is also less dimensional with reduced depth compared with the LG. It also has a silly backward slope.
The A1 does win out in some respects but is beaten in others by the C7 and so it comes down to what is important to the individual. Having compared both side by side I much preferred the overall presentation of the C7 as some bright scenes had more impact whilst some scenes with bright highlights showed considerably more detail. I handed over my cash for the C7 but would say it would have been nice to have the best bits of both TVs.
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post #1209 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 04:13 AM
 
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The reason to get the Sony as an alternative to the 17 LG is simply If you can see the X1E handing of dynamic HDR10 presenting a "better" presentation to Dolby Vision.

This is the only reason why I treasure my A1 including SDR handling.

It's not a Sony - LG comparison, it's a Sony - Dolby comparison IMO.

When Meridian was played at the shootout, on day 1 and day 2, this comparison was undeniable to most attending and the comments I overheard about it.

If this is not important to a viewer, the LG is the "first choice".
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post #1210 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 04:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by HitchcockBirds View Post
What a load! I don't necessarily choose a brand to be a fanboy of but the A1E should've won. It features all the benefits of the C7 but with better color gradient and motion handling.
Totally Sony's fault for not fully QC'ing their product settings etc...

LG did, and they made sure their TV was not misrepresented.

The E7 color was at 55 and Dynamic Contrast low.

Sony rep who was there on day 1 (when the A1 looked better) but absent on day 2 (when the A1 looked different than day 1) should have been there to ensure his product was on ACE low and color 55 also.. and verify all the cuts in adv color settings were really necessary...

As a result, as presented, the E7 looked better at the shootout outside of the Meridian stream.

It is only of my opinion that A1 would have been better off had the setting were left to default and let the X1E chip auto-balance.

A calibrated E7 is excellent, the real-life issue is, when a E7 comes out the box, it's not going to look like the way it did in the shootout.. you'll need a "talented" calibrator.

The A1 out the box is close to reference, with a talented calibrator not needing to do too much to get it to 1:1 reference.. I witnessed D-Nice do it in minutes, I couldn't tell you what he did because I wasn't paying attention to his settings adjustments, all I know is I looked up where he said "here see".. all 3 TVs (BVM) were 1:1 the same...

The shootout's A1 settings are who I wouldn't hire for the job, but the E7 settings I'd hire in a heartbeat because the calibration was immaculate.

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post #1211 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 04:27 AM
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So, what happens to the tvs that were used? Sold as open box? I live in Rye and may pop over to Value if so. If someone knows, please just PM me, i dont want to distract from the thread.

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The sets were not from VA. They were purchased from other vendors by CEWeek.

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post #1212 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 04:33 AM
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The sets were not from VA. They were purchased from other vendors by CEWeek.
Is Robert and VA no longer the organizers of the shootout?
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post #1213 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 04:46 AM
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Tyler,

Thought I read that you were involved with doing the calibrations.

Did you guys do a perceptual match to the reference display and come up with alternate white points? If so, how did the 2017 LG OLED x,y coordinates compare to the ones you did back at Spectrical?
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post #1214 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
The E7 color was at 55 and Dynamic Contrast low.

Sony rep who was there on day 1 (when the A1 looked better) but absent on day 2 (when the A1 looked different than day 1) should have been there to ensure his product was on ACE low and color 55 also.. and verify all the cuts in adv color settings were really necessary...

As a result, as presented, the E7 looked better at the shootout outside of the Meridian stream.

It is only of my opinion that A1 would have been better off had the setting were left to default and let the X1E chip auto-balance.

A calibrated E7 is excellent, the real-life issue is, when a E7 comes out the box, it's not going to look like the way it did in the shootout.. you'll need a "talented" calibrator.

The A1 out the box is close to reference, with a talented calibrator not needing to do too much to get it to 1:1 reference.. I witnessed D-Nice do it in minutes, I couldn't tell you what he did because I wasn't paying attention to his settings adjustments, all I know is I looked up where he said "here see".. all 3 TVs (BVM) were 1:1 the same...

The shootout's A1 settings are who I wouldn't hire for the job, but the E7 settings I'd hire in a heartbeat because the calibration was immaculate.
You do realize the using the same settings on the Sony would not result in it looking better than the LG - right? Different brands of displays don't usually use the same settings and achieve a similar picture - in this case matching to the reference monitor. They may share the same panel, but that's where the similarity stops.

What you really want to say is if they used your settings the A1E would look better. This is the reason for standards and calibration. In the end you can use your settings and get back to posting about how great the A1E is

A few days on your own and more posts about patents and your superior settings Where's a car analogy when you need one? Both are great displays, I'd take either the 2 Sony's or the LG with a calibration by DNice and be happy for the next 5 years - which is what I'm doing

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post #1215 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 05:44 AM
 
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The E7 color was at 55 and Dynamic Contrast low.

Sony rep who was there on day 1 (when the A1 looked better) but absent on day 2 (when the A1 looked different than day 1) should have been there to ensure his product was on ACE low and color 55 also.. and verify all the cuts in adv color settings were really necessary...

As a result, as presented, the E7 looked better at the shootout outside of the Meridian stream.

It is only of my opinion that A1 would have been better off had the setting were left to default and let the X1E chip auto-balance.

A calibrated E7 is excellent, the real-life issue is, when a E7 comes out the box, it's not going to look like the way it did in the shootout.. you'll need a "talented" calibrator.

The A1 out the box is close to reference, with a talented calibrator not needing to do too much to get it to 1:1 reference.. I witnessed D-Nice do it in minutes, I couldn't tell you what he did because I wasn't paying attention to his settings adjustments, all I know is I looked up where he said "here see".. all 3 TVs (BVM) were 1:1 the same...

The shootout's A1 settings are who I wouldn't hire for the job, but the E7 settings I'd hire in a heartbeat because the calibration was immaculate.
You do realize the using the same settings on the Sony would not result in it looking better than the LG - right? Different brands of displays don't usually use the same settings and achieve a similar picture - in this case matching to the reference monitor. They may share the same panel, but that's where the similarity stops.

What you really want to say is if they used your settings the A1E would look better. This is the reason for standards and calibration. In the end you can use your settings and get back to posting about how great the A1E is

A few days on your own and more posts about patents and your superior settings Where's a car analogy when you need one? Both are great displays, I'd take either the 2 Sony's or the LG with a calibration by DNice and be happy for the next 5 years - which is what I'm doing
Well having lived with owning the A1 and W7, That would mean a win/win no?

My commentary is not coming from a struggle to pick one or the other.. it's unbiased due to having owned them both longer than anyone else.

You are not the "new" Ken Ross in these posts, who is actually a very smart and eye-talented guy.. he's earned my respect in responding to, you'll get no such further attention from me.
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post #1216 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I hold the iCloud and Apple Pay patents..

Don't.

I think I can handle TV settings.

BTW: UltraViolet, Amazon Prime Video and Disney Access are my licensees too.. just in case TV relatedness is necessary...
1) How do those make you an expert on Moore's Law? Clearly it doesn't. You're posting sheer nonsense.

2) I think it's quite clear you can't handle TV settings based on your posting history and prior claims. Look at how wrong you were about how much better than AE1 is than the LG x7 OLEDs. It turns out that it has slightly better processing that allows it to remove posterization/banding from the source (that can't be defeated) and better upscaling that may or may not be noticeable from any reasonable seating distance, but it lacks a CMS and you're stuck with whatever color Sony deems to bless you with. That's a whole lot less than you were proclaiming/promising.
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post #1217 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:17 AM
 
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1) How do those make you an expert on Moore's Law? Clearly it doesn't. You're posting sheer nonsense.

2) I think it's quite clear you can't handle TV settings based on your posting history and prior claims. Look at how wrong you were about how much better than AE1 is than the LG x7 OLEDs. It turns out that it has slightly better processing that allows it to remove posterization/banding from the source (that can't be defeated) and better upscaling that may or may not be noticeable from any reasonable seating distance, but it lacks a CMS and you're stuck with whatever color Sony deems to bless you with. That's a whole lot less than you were proclaiming/promising.
1) I posted the first ownership pictures of the W7 and A1 in AVS.. My execution of Moore's Law made that possible.

2) I owned the W7 days before the A1.. my commentary are based on "owning" both, not having had to choose between 1 or the other. My commentary continues to be owning both and having gained great perspective of both from the shootout. I was the first in this thread to predict the E7 would win the shootout. I was right. Again, as a owner of both, for my opinion, it's unbiased to me.

And to be very clear.. The A1's handling of HDR10 "dynamically" IS superior to Dolby Vision.. That wasn't the contest, but to anyone into UHD, this is a very big deal. Anyone attending the Meridian streaming portion of the shootout on both days, saw this side-by-side demonstration. For me, this is the only point of the comparisons that provided personal verification to my admiration of both sets.

If the A1 didn't offer dynamic HDR10 remastering, I wouldn't own the A1 and would have returned them both.

My "settings" posts and admiration for the A1 has always been around the dynamic HDR10 handling, look it up.. I don't watch cable on my A1.. I don't watch USB video, DVDs, or 480p content on my A1... no gaming (the W7 is used for games) My A1 is fed 4K UHD or Blu-ray discs 95% of the time.

When I watch 4K UHD movies on the A1, they all look at or above Dolby Vision. The BVM-X300 doesn't deliver that, so don't misconstrue what my excitement has been for the A1 with not having said the 2016 LG OLEDs should be able to hit that X300 reference also.

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post #1218 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:19 AM
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The one certainty of these shootouts is no matter the caliber of the judges or how they conduct the testing there are going to be those who are contemptuous of the results.

My only critique of the two day event is that the evaluators didn't go into more detail and explanation with their conclusions. Hopefully more light can be shed on this with Scott Wilkinson's next podcast as I'm pretty sure that's what he'll be covering.

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post #1219 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:19 AM
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You have to rub it other people's faces, so what do you expect.
I think you're probably over-reacting here. Ken's just calling it as he saw it. Simple as that. And that's fair. You don't have to agree with him. I don't think his comments should be perceived as "rubbing it in other people's faces". It's just a TV you know!
in all fairness, I wasnt talking about Ken it was the other guy/woman that chimed in.
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post #1220 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:30 AM
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Totally Sony's fault for not fully QC'ing their product settings etc...

LG did, and they made sure their TV was not misrepresented.

The E7 color was at 55 and Dynamic Contrast low.

Sony rep who was there on day 1 (when the A1 looked better) but absent on day 2 (when the A1 looked different than day 1) should have been there to ensure his product was on ACE low and color 55 also.. and verify all the cuts in adv color settings were really necessary...

As a result, as presented, the E7 looked better at the shootout outside of the Meridian stream.

It is only of my opinion that A1 would have been better off had the setting were left to default and let the X1E chip auto-balance.

A calibrated E7 is excellent, the real-life issue is, when a E7 comes out the box, it's not going to look like the way it did in the shootout.. you'll need a "talented" calibrator.

The A1 out the box is close to reference, with a talented calibrator not needing to do too much to get it to 1:1 reference.. I witnessed D-Nice do it in minutes, I couldn't tell you what he did because I wasn't paying attention to his settings adjustments, all I know is I looked up where he said "here see".. all 3 TVs (BVM) were 1:1 the same...

The shootout's A1 settings are who I wouldn't hire for the job, but the E7 settings I'd hire in a heartbeat because the calibration was immaculate.
Al, I didn't want to say it but since you did, you are right on target. One of the things I noticed was that the LG team was there every day and bright and early on the day of the judging to make sure that their set was set up to display it's maximum performance. They actually flew in a picture quality guy from Korea who was there to make sure the LG was set up properly. Sony did have an engineer, who was fantastic, there the day before and on set up day but no one was there from Sony the day of the judging. The LG team stuck with that TV the whole day and I don't even think they went to the rest room lol. They took the shootout incredibly serious and that's another reason that contributed to their set being perfect and winning.
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post #1221 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:31 AM
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You may like your settings' output but I highly doubt your tinkering is close to a real calibration. Where are you located. I will be more than happy to challenge you with your claim.
Of course, our eyes lie to us all the time!

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post #1222 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:32 AM
 
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Al, I didn't want to say it but since you did, you are right on target. One of the things I noticed was that the LG team was there every day and bright and early on the day of the judging to make sure that their set was set up to display it's maximum performance. They actually flew in a picture quality guy from Korea who was there to make sure the LG was set up properly. Sony did have an engineer, who was fantastic, there the day before and on set up day but no one was there from Sony the day of the judging. The LG team stuck with that TV the whole day and I don't even think they went to the rest room lol. They took the shootout incredibly serious and that's another reason that contributed to their set being perfect and winning.
And as a result, during the shootout the E7 looked superior to the other TVs and deserved to win..

No questions about it..

Thanks jrref for chiming in.
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post #1223 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:35 AM
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Of course, our eyes lie to us all the time!

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post #1224 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:43 AM
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Al, I didn't want to say it but since you did, you are right on target. One of the things I noticed was that the LG team was there every day and bright and early on the day of the judging to make sure that their set was set up to display it's maximum performance. They actually flew in a picture quality guy from Korea who was there to make sure the LG was set up properly. Sony did have an engineer, who was fantastic, there the day before and on set up day but no one was there from Sony the day of the judging. The LG team stuck with that TV the whole day and I don't even think they went to the rest room lol. They took the shootout incredibly serious and that's another reason that contributed to their set being perfect and winning.
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
And as a result, during the shootout the E7 looked superior to the other TVs and deserved to win..

No questions about it..

Thanks jrref for chiming in.
That's a neat feature, a TV that comes with its own technician to make sure it's always operating perfectly. How much does that add to the MSRP?

All kidding aside, I gotta agree. Ultimately, the LG E7 looked the most like the Sony mastering OLED and anyone who was in the room could see that. So, at the end of the day, the LG winning is logical.
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post #1225 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:43 AM
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Maine 2 hours away from the closest Magnolia. Where you can't find a professional calibrator that's willing to come out here. LOL I'm returning my 65" Z9D for a 75" Z9D next Saturday. If your willing I would welcome you.Thank you
Where in Maine? I'm not a professional per say but i think I'm pretty good. Although I have not done any 3dlut Cal's either

There is a professional calibrator in Maine. His name is Gregg Loewen and his business is lionav.com

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post #1226 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:44 AM
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"Where's a car analogy when you need one?"

Well, here's mine. You can't make this is a blind test anymore than you could with a shootout of exotic sports cars. With the exception of the Westinghouse as the judges probably don't have much experience with low end brands they would have been able to deduce what television they were looking at without the aide of menus or physical appearance.
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post #1227 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:46 AM
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Would love to know the following: Which vendor(s) were used to buy the TVs, where did the money to buy those TVs come from, and if they were purchased outright, what happens to the TVs now?



Robert was there for the whole time, but this year's shootout was run by CE Week. And, as you've likely noticed, the name of Robert's store was not in the event's title—at least for this year.
I believe the people from CE week bought the sets from Best Buy, just like an ordinary consumer would buy a set from Value Electronics or another retailer. If you looked at the bottom of the CE week cover page for the Shootout, you will see Robert's name and Value Electronics listed.

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post #1228 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:52 AM
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it's a well documented problem with the LG sets which the Sony doesn't have because of its Smooth Gradation feature. I have 180mb/s down so am at the top streaming speed and it's an evident problem with my B7, and E6 before that.
First off, this is not a 'well documented problem' with the LG sets. It's a well documented problem with certain content. That's a big difference. False contouring exists within the content and the Sony is simply reducing what's already there. The LG is more faithful to the source.

Second, many LG owners don't see this as an issue with the majority of streaming content on Netflix & Amazon. I get a stellar picture on much of this content and see infrequent instances of false contouring. Even the infrequent instances when it's there, it's gone within seconds.
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post #1229 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:55 AM
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Netflix and Amazon are not really affected. It's HBO Go and Showtime Anytime that are bad. My connection is pristine. It's not that. It's these other streaming services that are crap.
I'm sure if these services are that bad and so highly compressed, there's more than false contouring going on and the Sony won't eliminate that. I don't watch those services, so I can't comment.
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post #1230 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
"Where's a car analogy when you need one?"

Well, here's mine. You can't make this is a blind test anymore than you could with a shootout of exotic sports cars. With the exception of the Westinghouse as the judges probably don't have much experience with low end brands they would have been able to deduce what television they were looking at without the aide of menus or physical appearance.
Okay, I admit, when I was walking the dog this morning I was formulating a car analogy, knowing how they provide a flawed form of entertainment in threads like this. I was just waiting for somebody to ask for one.

So, here's my attempt...


- LG's 2017 OLED is an electric race car. Gotta tune it to perfection; it's not for amateurs. Doing so yields a professional result.

- Sony's A1E is an exotic electric sports car that's almost as fast as a racecar, but is street legal and can be driven in traffic because it has an adjustable suspension. But set in in "track" mode and it's race-ready.

- Sony's Z9D is last year's concept car that still uses a gas engine and does not corner as well as the A1E, but is faster going in a straight line than that electric exotic. There's a truck-sized version that's insane.

- Samsung's Q9F is a self-driving luxury sports sedan than does not appeal to racecar drivers. It's not something you'd bring to the track, and it actually costs more than the exotic sports car, but some folks like it because it's comfortable and stylish—and available as a 7-seater—while still offering performance that satisfies people who are not racecar drivers.

- Vizio's P-series is basically a Corvette. It's an American company selling sports cars for less than premium foreign competitors. And while it does not beat the top dogs from the foreign companies, when people see the price/performance ratio, it challenges their preconceptions of what the brand offers.

- And the Westinghouse? Well, it's that economy car with the "racing-style" steering wheel and seats that runs on a 4-cylinder engine. Fit and finish suffer, as far as sports car handling goes it's not that great. But it costs a fraction of what the others do, seats five comfortably, and at least it has Amazon Alexa built in.
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Last edited by imagic; 07-15-2017 at 08:55 AM.
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