2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 43 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1261 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
FWIW, I commented that even with BFI switched on with my Sony 940c, the judder was still horrific. Switching smooth on with my B6, actually yielded the best results, but still had artifacts.

This is an incredibly rare instance and a superb example of content creators who are beyond clueless. I can't recall ever seeing anything that bad.
It's one of the worst examples I've seen. I wish I still had my plasma to see how it would handle it.
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post #1262 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I am speaking about source related issues and display related issues. They are two different things. The false contouring that most of us see are source related issues. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but you would be 100% wrong. The Sony clears up that content related false contouring, the LG does not.

Further, I have yet to see any instance (as in not one), where the LG displayed false contouring that was not in the content. IOW, I've never seen the LG creating its own false contouring.

Again, I don't watch crap sources like HBO to go or whatever. The 'lowest quality' sources I've watched are Netflix and Amazon and they both can look great.
I don't really care where it comes from. But to "upgrade" my tv to OLED and experience a downgrade in PQ related to streaming on those 2 sources (at least) was a disappointment. I've never even seen this before going to LG and OLED. If the Sony can eliminate it, great. I may be upgrading on a 2018 model.
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post #1263 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
With your G7 (congrats BTW) the onboard apps are the best to use because in my opinion the LG streaming apps are the best and most capable of any STB or Smart TV.

With the Roku connected to an A1, the benefit of dynamic HDR10 handling would be the same as the built-in app.

Any color issues that may have been seen with the Sony on day 2 of the shootout is due to its settings on that day.

For reference: during the start of the sit-around with D-Nice and jrref, jrref immediatly pointed out the A1 was too blue on a city scape scene from PEII in comparison to the E7 and X300, which I agreed. I did see a correction to that within their session with the TVs, but on day 2 I have to accept the blue was back.
Not sure I agree with that, Al. I say that because the only time I noticed the color of the Sony being obviously skewed, was when using the onboard streaming app. So the color during all the other testing did not deviate as markedly from the LG as it did during the streaming exercise. So the Sony was handling the streaming color differently than it was via the HDMI input.

Now is it possible that the color is simply less accurate via the streaming app than it is on the LG's streaming app? Yes, I suppose it could be. It is possible, as crazy as I know I sound, for 'something' on the Sony not to be superior to the LG. I know for sure John will think I'm crazy.
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post #1264 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post
So has nearly everyone else - I have started with the 3D disc and quickly switcehd to the Blu-Ray discs. Promethus & one of the avengers wasn't bad in 3D.

Need to go to the movie and see Fort Ti for good 3D!!
Well if you can still grab a 2016 LG OLED, you'll get the best presentation of 3D, including the movie theaters, that you'll ever see. I think John & Al might actually agree with that too.

I was just never a fan of 3D, regardless of how good it was, because I always felt it was gimmicky.
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post #1265 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:55 AM
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I may have missed it but was Dolby Vision calibrated during the test? Also how do some of you think the E6 or G6 would compare in the test if they were brought in to go against the ZD9/Samsung etc.
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post #1266 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post
Sony's first attempt at a reference consumer TV was the Profeel series back in the 1980s. I had the original 25" model as my set for a number of years.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f--gadget-.jpg
I had that puppy!!! Sony was truly #1 for many years during that era. Once they stopped manufacturing their own displays, I think they lost their edge.
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post #1267 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Not sure I agree with that, Al. I say that because the only time I noticed the color of the Sony being obviously skewed, was when using the onboard streaming app. So the color during all the other testing did not deviate as markedly from the LG as it did during the streaming exercise. So the Sony was handling the streaming color differently than it was via the HDMI input.

Now is it possible that the color is simply less accurate via the streaming app than it is on the LG's streaming app? Yes, I suppose it could be. It is possible, as crazy as I know I sound, for 'something' on the Sony not to be superior to the LG. I know for sure John will think I'm crazy.
Yep,
There should be no difference but I wish you would have mentioned this to me because I would have had them check to make sure that the correct PM was set for the streaming because if it wasn't, that could have made you see what you saw.

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post #1268 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by grodd View Post
I may have missed it but was Dolby Vision calibrated during the test? Also how do some of you think the E6 or G6 would compare in the test if they were brought in to go against the ZD9/Samsung etc.
Yes I was there when Tyler calibrated DV on the E7 on setup day.
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post #1269 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Not sure I agree with that, Al. I say that because the only time I noticed the color of the Sony being obviously skewed, was when using the onboard streaming app. So the color during all the other testing did not deviate as markedly from the LG as it did during the streaming exercise. So the Sony was handling the streaming color differently than it was via the HDMI input.

Now is it possible that the color is simply less accurate via the streaming app than it is on the LG's streaming app? Yes, I suppose it could be. It is possible, as crazy as I know I sound, for 'something' on the Sony not to be superior to the LG. I know for sure John will think I'm crazy.
The HDMI input and streaming apps have 2 separate settings memory.. so one thing is for sure is the streaming and HDMI was not sharing the same setting memory.
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post #1270 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
The HDMI input and streaming apps have 2 separate settings memory.. so one thing is for sure is the streaming and HDMI was not sharing the same setting memory.
Correct but I wish I would have seen them check this just to make sure because it is easy to overlook this step and that could have been what Ken was seeing.
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post #1271 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Well if you can still grab a 2016 LG OLED, you'll get the best presentation of 3D, including the movie theaters, that you'll ever see. I think John & Al might actually agree with that too.

I was just never a fan of 3D, regardless of how good it was, because I always felt it was gimmicky.
My experience with Tron Legacy 3D BD on the G6 is the reason I recommend the 2016 LG OLED as likely the best all around buy for those looking for the last "everything" TV, this include Dolby Vision over HDMI and in-app support.
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post #1272 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:02 AM
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It is indeed well documented when Vincent Teoh on YouTube is talking about how bad Game of Thrones episodes are on LG sets and it has been discussed at length on the forums here as well. Maybe you are choosing to overlook negative feedback, another bias. Also, it has been identified in Rtings testing where the LG sets cannot display a smooth gradient, whereas other sets can. Previous to my E6 and B7 I had a 9 year old Samsung LED LCD set that never had any posturization visible like it is on my LG sets - very visible and very distracting on many shows from HBO Go and Showtime. If you care to check them out for your own knowledge, try "The Wizard of Lies". My iPad doesn't even show these issues when viewing the same content. For some reason the LG (or OLED in general) cannot handle them.
My Vizio P Series TV is equally as bad with Game of thrones. Bad banding in very dark scene and it can also be seen in snow scenes.

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post #1273 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Ken I don't know what you are trying to get to here but the one thing that I learned was that the calibration was critical because as you read in Kevin Collins review, he gave the vote to LG because the color was slightly more accurate than the A1. I was there on judging day early, before you arrived and I saw the interaction concerning the LG which was very appropriate. From what I understand, all the sets were checked and adjusted by the calibration team because they were so new that they apparently drifted slightly and they wanted to make sure that they were all perfect. LG was giving their input on this final checkout to make sure everything was correct and to their preferences which was totally fine and really demonstrated their commitment to perfection. I know because the were concerned about the contrast and the brightness settings on the LG.
John, what I am trying to say is that you have no idea if the day 2 settings were better or worse than the day 1 calibrations as regards to accuracy. You can only say they were different. You can't even say how different they were. You just can't without any substantiation. All I've heard is that Al said 'one click' on the brightness was different. Beyond that, show me the results.

The implication here from some is that the calibrators did not do a good job on day 2. I'd like to see proof of that. Otherwise I have to be honest, it sounds like more of the same sour grapes I hear every single year without fail.
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Originally Posted by grodd View Post
I may have missed it but was Dolby Vision calibrated during the test? Also how do some of you think the E6 or G6 would compare in the test if they were brought in to go against the ZD9/Samsung etc.
In my opinion, the G6 would prevail over the Z9/Q9 only because I believe (though no one seems to agree) that the G6 contained a superior image processor than the other 2016 LG OLEDs.. I maintain this today as my G6 and W7 look 1:1 the same and I don't see any of the issues in the G6 that has been pointed out as being present on the C7 reviews.
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My experience with Tron Legacy 3D BD on the G6 is the reason I recommend the 2016 LG OLED as likely the best all around buy for those looking for the last "everything" TV, this include Dolby Vision over HDMI and in-app support.
VR is the future of 3D, one or two more generations and the picture quality plus comfort will be there and nothing is gonna beat that visual experience when it arrives.
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post #1276 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Yep,
There should be no difference but I wish you would have mentioned this to me because I would have had them check to make sure that the correct PM was set for the streaming because if it wasn't, that could have made you see what you saw.
I only thought about the potential failings of the entire streaming exercise on the way home. I've had plenty of experience with these streaming apps from different sources and I'm well aware that PQ, in many areas, can vary with the device. Onboard vs. external can be quite different.
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post #1277 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
The HDMI input and streaming apps have 2 separate settings memory.. so one thing is for sure is the streaming and HDMI was not sharing the same setting memory.
Absolutely. It's the same way on my 940c. All the streaming apps have the same memory setting. It's too bad that each app doesn't have separate adjustments. It's no different on the LG, but at least there are separate settings for DV vs HDR10...obviously.
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post #1278 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:10 AM
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Ken I don't know what you are trying to get to here but the one thing that I learned was that the calibration was critical because as you read in Kevin Collins review, he gave the vote to LG because the color was slightly more accurate than the A1. I was there on judging day early, before you arrived and I saw the interaction concerning the LG which was very appropriate. From what I understand, all the sets were checked and adjusted by the calibration team because they were so new that they apparently drifted slightly and they wanted to make sure that they were all perfect. LG was giving their input on this final checkout to make sure everything was correct and to their preferences which was totally fine and really demonstrated their commitment to perfection. I know because the were concerned about the contrast and the brightness settings on the LG.
I think that the first thing Sony needs to do with their FW update is to add a CMS. That way color accuracy will no longer be an issue. Might be more important than DV.
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post #1279 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:11 AM
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John, what I am trying to say is that you have no idea if the day 2 settings were better or worse than the day 1 calibrations as regards to accuracy. You can only say they were different. You can't even say how different they were. You just can't without any substantiation. All I've heard is that Al said 'one click' on the brightness was different. Beyond that, show me the results.



The implication here from some is that the calibrators did not do a good job on day 2. I'd like to see proof of that. Otherwise I have to be honest, it sounds like more of the same sour grapes I hear every single year without fail.


Gotta hand it to KR, he simply cannot help responding to any and every suggestion regarding either a relative flaw in the LG or a relative strength of the Sony. The reason they are saying the calibrations were different from day 1 to day 2 is because they saw a difference with their own eyes. The reason they are saying the calibration on day 1 was better is because they saw the A1 appear more like the reference monitor. How are they supposed to provide proof of this? Obviously they can't. It all comes down to trust and respect. I don't disrespect the judges opinions because they were just describing what they were seeing.


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post #1280 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
John, what I am trying to say is that you have no idea if the day 2 settings were better or worse than the day 1 calibrations as regards to accuracy. You can only say they were different. You can't even say how different they were. You just can't without any substantiation. All I've heard is that Al said 'one click' on the brightness was different. Beyond that, show me the results.

The implication here from some is that the calibrators did not do a good job on day 2. I'd like to see proof of that. Otherwise I have to be honest, it sounds like more of the same sour grapes I hear every single year without fail.
Without an explanation of what the settings were, there will be discussion about what was seen in the shoutout opposed to what we all see in our homes. When you get your G7, it's not going to look like the E7 in the shootout until it gets calibrated, by a highly talented pro; so even this, the shootout is a reference expectation for the TV but in the reverse (and positive) of knowing what the G7 should ultimately look like. Unfortunately, for A1 owners at the shootout, we didn't see an improved A1 but a less performing one.. the E7 looked miles ahead better than my W7.

If the comparison was out-the-box defaults, then that's unquestionable law.. when human adjustment are in play, questions are viable.

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Originally Posted by ataneruo View Post
Gotta hand it to KR, he simply cannot help responding to any and every suggestion regarding either a relative flaw in the LG or a relative strength of the Sony. The reason they are saying the calibrations were different from day 1 to day 2 is because they saw a difference with their own eyes. The reason they are saying the calibration on day 1 was better is because they saw the A1 appear more like the reference monitor. How are they supposed to provide proof of this? Obviously they can't. It all comes down to trust and respect. I don't disrespect the judges opinions because they were just describing what they were seeing.


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I respond where I feel there's a logical difference. Is that OK? I have also freely admitted, on numerous occasions, where I saw a distinct advantage to the Sony. Get over it. If you don't like my honesty, don't read my posts.

I am simply asking for a response from the calibrator. Further, did you attend the shootout? No? I didn't think so. If you did, you'd see there were no great deviation in color, for most tests, between the LG & the Sony. There simply wasn't. Did you hear the judge say he gave it to the LG for 'slightly better' color? So obviously if there were any changes, they were slight.

I will continue to respond to posts where I think there's an obvious alternate explanation.
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.
Do you think that the color mapping that Sony use is what makes the colors less accurate?
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post #1283 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:27 AM
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Do you think that the color mapping that Sony use is what makes the Sony less accurate?
That's a question for D-Nice. Otherwise you know where your question will go.

To be fair, I think the color differences are very minor. The only significant differences I saw were during the streaming exercise.
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Do you think that the color mapping that Sony use is what makes the colors less accurate?
It's probably because there is no CMS adjustments?

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Man, this is getting better and better.

Basically, the LG won the game on the field but the contention is the game was either rigged (whether intentionally or ignorantly) or that the Sony did better during warm-ups. Gotcha.

Sometimes this hobby perplexes me when some people try to use it as a status symbol and therefore fight to the end to justify that their piece of electronic is the best.

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post #1286 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
If the comparison was out-the-box defaults, then that's unquestionable law.. when human adjustment are in play, questions are viable.
I don't think out of the box comparisons would stop all this debate. People would just say that one or other was a better or worse example of the TV than the opponent. In other words they would point to the varience seen within TVs of the exact same model type.
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post #1287 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:37 AM
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It's probably because there is no CMS adjustments?

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Agree, Just wondering about the color mapping algorithm that Sony use to enhance the colors....Sky ,ocean ,greens have a (unique) distinct look when comparing to other brands.

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post #1288 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:41 AM
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Agree, Just wondering about the color mapping algorithm that Sony use to enhance the colors....Sky ,ocean ,greens have a different look.
Yea the everyday memory colors are the most important to get right.

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post #1289 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I respond where I feel there's a logical difference. Is that OK? I have also freely admitted, on numerous occasions, where I saw a distinct advantage to the Sony. Get over it. If you don't like my honesty, don't read my posts.

I am simply asking for a response from the calibrator. Further, did you attend the shootout? No? I didn't think so. If you did, you'd see there were no great deviation in color, for most tests, between the LG & the Sony. There simply wasn't. Did you hear the judge say he gave it to the LG for 'slightly better' color? So obviously if there were any changes, they were slight.

I will continue to respond to posts where I think there's an obvious alternate explanation.
Ken, we got it.
You are not going to get a response from the guys who calibrated the sets at the shootout. All I can say is that I witnessed some of the calibrations and they were all done to perfection by experienced guys, but the sets were so new and I don't believe they were burned in so I believe, and it's only my guess, that they were trying to correct any drift.
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post #1290 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
That's a question for D-Nice. Otherwise you know where your question will go.

To be fair, I think the color differences are very minor. The only significant differences I saw were during the streaming exercise.
The color differences were minor but consistent. The blue push was noticeable on all content but was most noticeable with white or gray. Credits were too hot, clouds, etc. glad DeWayne can get that fixed.
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