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post #1321 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 12:53 PM
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^^ Good riddance to curved but also 3D (I know I am going to catch hell on that) but I am ready for VR movies when you are in the middle of it!
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post #1322 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:00 PM
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^^Well, not sure how 3D affects you in any quantitively negative way? Curved screens certainly did if you didn't want distorted viewing. Glasses-free 3D is really what I'd like to see instead of an annoying, uncomfortable contraption I have to wear over my head. Passive is the best compromise in the meantime.
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VR is the future of 3D, one or two more generations and the picture quality plus comfort will be there and nothing is gonna beat that visual experience when it arrives.
In the meantime, good luck mimicking the 3D presentation afforded by a 77" UHD OLED screen, which will probably be buried with me (even though I'm not yet 40).
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post #1323 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:04 PM
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Just heard the results announced. LG must be very pleased with this clean sweep.

In case it hasn't been posted yet, here is what Forbes is reporting: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#103707becc6c

Between the dismal showing of Samsung's Q9 and it's pricing parity with LG's OLEDs, these results almost certainly indicate a continuation of the trend LG WOLED established a year ago:
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post #1324 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
A real question for the attendees,

Can you guys elaborate on the ABL performance between the C7 and A1E? What I've noticed in store with both sets next to each other is a more consistent picture experience with the LG. The ABL kick on the Sony was pretty obvious to spot whereas the LG seemed either not do it or it was subtle enough that I wasn't able to pick up on it. Keep in mind, that's with store settings so I'm curious how that experience is with calibrated settings?

I watch a fair amount of racing (F1, MotoGP) and full screen, bright images, in the middle of the day are the name of the game for that. Would love to hear some details specific to ABL performance.
The abl on the Sony was clearly more aggressive than the LG. Unless you saw the sets together, I am not sure you would notice. On a screen with a lot of white, the LG was clearly brighter. The Sony was more like a plasma. Either way, it didn't bother me.
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post #1325 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:21 PM
 
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So @Al Leong : If you talk about quantitative measure, this review is the fastest growing of all of the OLED posts combined!
Because this is the peak of all the 2017 discussions!!
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post #1326 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Just heard the results announced. LG must be very pleased with this clean sweep.

In case it hasn't been posted yet, here is what Forbes is reporting: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#103707becc6c

Between the dismal showing of Samsung's Q9 and it's pricing parity with LG's OLEDs, these results almost certainly indicate a continuation of the trend LG WOLED established a year ago:
"crushes"

Lol

"Hyperbole" won't make the sports move any smoother..

Just saying ?
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post #1327 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
VR is the future of 3D, one or two more generations and the picture quality plus comfort will be there and nothing is gonna beat that visual experience when it arrives.
They will need to make these headsets adjustable for a person's vision too. Wearing VR headsets over glasses is not very comfortable. Being able to adjust for both the left and right eye will be needed.

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post #1328 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Just heard the results announced. LG must be very pleased with this clean sweep.

In case it hasn't been posted yet, here is what Forbes is reporting: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#103707becc6c

Between the dismal showing of Samsung's Q9 and it's pricing parity with LG's OLEDs, these results almost certainly indicate a continuation of the trend LG WOLED established a year ago:
I guess Samsung is biding their time with a QDCF display (next year?) and a true QLED display down the road - 4/5 years. I'm not sure if a backlight for a QDCF will be any better than a conventional one. But they're a marketing juggernaut and to the average consumer they're still considered a premium brand - which they remain in some aspects.

As for the shootout there is some controversy if the Sony A1E was calibrated at its best but as you know from past shootouts it's the same ole same ole.
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post #1329 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:41 PM
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I think you meant Samfung is biding their time?
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post #1330 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
I think you meant Samfung is biding their time?
Fixed, thanks!

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post #1331 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
The A1 is not $1k more. The A1 is equivalent to the E7 and they are basically the same price. Sony doesn't have an entry level set to competen with the C7.
I understand this...but I also understand that the C7 provides identical PQ as the E7 and G7. So why would someone buy an E7 other than cosmetic changes? That was my point. You can still spend 1000$ less on the 55 c7 even compared the E7 because you are getting the exact same processing, motion, etc etc.

Personally I felt the motion on the Sony was way beyond the LG, but for the price of the c7, unless the sony came down tremendously, that's a no brainer to go with the LG
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post #1332 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
I guess LG is abiding their time with a QDCF display (next year?) and a true QLED display down the road - 4/5 years.
I believe you meant Samsung, right?

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I'm not sure if a backlight for a QDCF will be any better than a conventional one. But they're a marketing juggernaut and to the average consumer they're still considered a premium brand - which they remain in some aspects.
Did you mean 'WOLED Backlight? Compared to what Samsung will offer based on QDCF on conventional blue LED backlight? Not sure what you are trying to say here.

QDCF on conventional Blue LCD backlight avoids the need for blue QDCF, while QDCF on WOLED backlight needs all three RGB QDCF primaries...

Quote:
As for the shootout there is some controversy if the Sony A1E was calibrated at it's best best but as you know from past shootouts it's the same ole same ole.
Even the A1Es 'Honorable Mention' is good for LG WOLED - if the results in that category had been reversed, it wouldn't have changed much.

Seems LGs improvements in reduced ABL were the key advantage that gave them the edge over the Sony A1E. Who knows how the panels are specified, but it seems that LG allows panel customers to make their own determination as to the level of ABL 'protection' they feel comfortable with (and Sony chose to stick closer to the ABL limts LG used on their 2016 OLEDs).

That, and the fact that Sony had some processing that could not be turned off (and hence delivered images that were slightly off from reference).
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post #1333 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:01 PM
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I understand this...but I also understand that the C7 provides identical PQ as the E7 and G7. So why would someone buy an E7 other than cosmetic changes? That was my point. You can still spend 1000$ less on the 55 c7 even compared the E7 because you are getting the exact same processing, motion, etc etc.
Because they value the premium integrated Soundbar (akin to the uber-premium A1E's 'sound-in-glass' ).

In terms of videophiles with proper Surround Sound systems, the C7 is the best possible picture at the lowest possible price (as you confirm).

Quote:
Personally I felt the motion on the Sony was way beyond the LG, but for the price of the c7, unless the sony came down tremendously, that's a no brainer to go with the LG
It's amazing the quality of 65" TV you can get for under $4000 today (and probably for close to $2500 by the Holidays ).
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post #1334 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Did you mean 'WOLED Backlight? Compared to what Samsung will offer based on QDCF on conventional blue LED backlight? Not sure what you are trying to say here.

QDCF on conventional Blue LCD backlight avoids the need for blue QDCF, while QDCF on WOLED backlight needs all three RGB QDCF primaries...
What I meant is a LCD with an QDCF will still require a backlight as it's still a transmissive display. What I was getting at is will it be any more effective with light bleed than a LCD with conventional filters.

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post #1335 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
(I don't believe I'm about to actually "agree" with KR)



Having seen the X300 presentation of the source encoded contouring, and see the E7 faithfully transmit the same source issue and the A1 seamlessly "clean it up" by default was a real eye-opener for me.



I prefer to see the artifacts, film grain, imaging flaws because as a content enthusiast, I like to determine the quality of the content encoding/production/streaming bitrate.


You can always turn off smooth gradation on the Sony. It was set to low for the shootout.
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post #1336 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:12 PM
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What I meant is a LCD with an QDCF will still require a backlight as it's still an emissive display. What I was getting at is will it be any more effective with light bleed than a LCD with conventional filters.
I think you meant to type 'transmissive', no .

An LCD with QDCF essentially transforms a transmissive display into an opto-emissive display. Light bleed and viewing angles will be greatly improved and much closer to an electro-emissive display lile plasma or RGB OLED than to an LCD with conventional color filters...
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You can always turn off smooth gradation on the Sony. It was set to low for the shootout.
If that is true, why wasn't the feature turned OFF for the shootout?

Did the shootout use default settings for processing functions?
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post #1338 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:16 PM
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I think you meant to type 'transmissive', no .

An LCD with QDCF essentially transforms a transmissive display into an opto-emissive display. Light bleed and viewing angles will be greatly improved and much closer to an electro-emissive display lile plasma or RGB OLED than to an LCD with conventional color filters...
Did I have a stroke? Yes that is what I meant, thank you!

So, I guess there is reason for some optimism from Samsung for next year.

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The abl on the Sony was clearly more aggressive than the LG. Unless you saw the sets together, I am not sure you would notice. On a screen with a lot of white, the LG was clearly brighter. The Sony was more like a plasma. Either way, it didn't bother me.
Thank you! having seen them side by side, the ABL diff keeps running through my head.

I have a Kuro 151 D-Nice calibrated and would like something with better ABL performance and more consistency for certain types of viewing so that's why I keep going back to the LG. I do like the Sony though.

A question on the LG ABL. From reading, it doesn't seem to kick in below 150nits which is 44fl. Does that mean if you have it calibrated to lets say 200nits, when the ABL does kick in, it won't go below 150nits? Am I understanding that right?
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You can always turn off smooth gradation on the Sony. It was set to low for the shootout.
Oh jeez Tyler. Now #gradiationgate is about to begin...

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post #1341 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I think that's what we said. At the shootout, D-Nice and some of us proved that you can make the LG and the A1 look identical depending on how you calibrate it.


Even when the white balance was exactly the same, The Sony lacked color saturation, as compared to the LG or the X300. We know the panel is capable of the correct saturation, so I think the main difference is a different HDR color volume (tone) mapping strategy that each company is using. Remember there is no standard for that. That is just software, there's nothing preventing the TV manufactures from releasing a firmware update with new tone mapping. Unless they were handicapped by hardware LUT size in the TV, Which I doubt is the case.

Also for the Meridian DV vs HDR10 streaming, since the X300 was out of the question, because each TV was using its own internal app, we don't know which was correct or not.

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2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
If that is true, why wasn't the feature turned OFF for the shootout?



Did the shootout use default settings for processing functions?

It is something that I would leave on after doing a professional calibration. Where as something like noise reduction or motion interpolation would not be.

I think it is a great technology, especially until we get panels that don't show banding natively. Remember these panels are natively still gamma based, which requires more than 10 bits to not show Banding for HDR.
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post #1343 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Because they value the premium integrated Soundbar (akin to the uber-premium A1E's 'sound-in-glass' ).

In terms of videophiles with proper Surround Sound systems, the C7 is the best possible picture at the lowest possible price (as you confirm).



It's amazing the quality of 65" TV you can get for under $4000 today (and probably for close to $2500 by the Holidays ).
I wonder if Sony will offer a "base model" equivalent to the C7 next year?
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post #1344 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It is something that I would leave on after doing a professional calibration. Where as something like noise reduction or motion interpolation would not be.

I think it is a great technology, especially until we get panels that don't show banding natively. Remember these panels are natively still gamma based, which requires more than 10 bits to not show Banding for HDR.
Tyler, thanks and just to add we did turn off the smoothing control on the A1 after day 1 just to see, and it still did a better job with gradient processing and D-Nice pointed this out as well. It was turned back on to Low because that's the default setting.
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post #1345 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
Thank you! having seen them side by side, the ABL diff keeps running through my head.

I have a Kuro 151 D-Nice calibrated and would like something with better ABL performance and more consistency for certain types of viewing so that's why I keep going back to the LG. I do like the Sony though.

A question on the LG ABL. From reading, it doesn't seem to kick in below 150nits which is 44fl. Does that mean if you have it calibrated to lets say 200nits, when the ABL does kick in, it won't go below 150nits? Am I understanding that right?
Hopefully this helps:

ABL only kicks in when the brightness exceeds the graphed targets over the corresponding % of the screen (so 150 Nits is only for a full-screen 100% field).

For SDR content, brightness can go to 430 Nits for up to 25% of the screen before ABL kicks in and for HDR content brightness can go to 900 Nits for up to 3% of the screen or 720 Nits for up to 10% of the screen before ABL kicks in...
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post #1346 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
Thank you! having seen them side by side, the ABL diff keeps running through my head.

I have a Kuro 151 D-Nice calibrated and would like something with better ABL performance and more consistency for certain types of viewing so that's why I keep going back to the LG. I do like the Sony though.

A question on the LG ABL. From reading, it doesn't seem to kick in below 150nits which is 44fl. Does that mean if you have it calibrated to lets say 200nits, when the ABL does kick in, it won't go below 150nits? Am I understanding that right?
I have a DeWayne calibrated 141. If ABL is a concern for you, get the LG. ABL really doesn't factor into my thinking.

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post #1347 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It is something that I would leave on after doing a professional calibration. Where as something like noise reduction or motion interpolation would not be.

I think it is a great technology, especially until we get panels that don't show banding natively. Remember these panels are natively still gamma based, which requires more than 10 bits to not show Banding for HDR.
Thanks for the explanation.

If that is the case, I agree it is unfair to ding the Sony for being slighly off-reference for that test.

Having a 'movie-mode' calibration/settings distinct from a 'reference-mode' calibration settings would have been a fair way to compare fairly for different tests... (perhaps next year ).

Your comment on tone-mapping, however, seems to be an area where the A1E was a substantive step behind the E7 (possibly a gap to be closed with an update, but supporting the assessment that the LG was the best TV for HDR...).
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Even when the white balance was exactly the same, The Sony lacked color saturation, as compared to the LG or the X300. We know the panel is capable of the correct saturation, so I think the main difference is a different HDR color volume (tone) mapping strategy that each company is using. Remember there is no standard for that. That is just software, there's nothing preventing the TV manufactures from releasing a firmware update with new tone mapping. Unless they were handicapped by hardware LUT size in the TV, Which I doubt is the case.

Also for the Meridian DV vs HDR10 streaming, since the X300 was out of the question, because each TV was using its own internal app, we don't know which was correct or not.
I wonder if what we saw on the A1 at the shootout was due to panel variation because on my A1 which is meticulously calibrated, the CMS looks fine.
The second set is from a C7.
I added the color volume runs for the A1 and then the C7.
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post #1349 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:48 PM
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My apologies if this has already been discussed, but the thread is moving too quickly for me to read everything.

For those that were at the event, what were the clear areas where the LG OLED lagged noticably behind the other TVs?

1/ Did the BFI on Sony's A1E and the LCDs deliver noticably smoother motion performance than LG's higher-persistance OLED?

2/ Even though I understand the LG OLED had the best 'color volume', was it noticably lagging in the 'brightness wars' against the LCDs in a way that looked inferior on actual HDR content?

3/ It sounds as though LG has made great strides in near-black gradations and uniformity, but were there areas where it was still noticably inferior to the LCD in rendering near-black scenes (noticable crush, near-black streakibg/banding, etc...)?

4/ ABL that was visibly more distracting than local dimming artifacts on the LCDs?

5/ Anything else?
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post #1350 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
I wonder if Sony will offer a "base model" equivalent to the C7 next year?
Nobody knows right now. They will get 100,000 panels from LGD that is all we know. Except for LG which has five models manufacturers have limited to none variation in OLED models this year, don't expect that to change by much in 2018.
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