2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I wonder if what we saw on the A1 was due to a variation in the panels because on my A1 which is meticulously calibrated, the CMS looks fine.

The second set is from a C7.


Yes but you are showing the SDR calibration. I was only referring to HDR10.

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post #1352 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I wonder if what we saw on the A1 was due to a variation in the panels because on my A1 which is meticulously calibrated, the CMS looks fine.
The second set is from a C7.
I believe Wifi-Spy's comment was regarding HDR, not SDR. He specifically memtioned 'tone mapping'

Have you ever done a side-by-side comparison of your properly-calibrated C7 and A1E when viewing HDR content?

From the comments, there shoukd be a noticable difference in HDR saturation even if SDR saturation is identical...

Sounds as though you were actually there, so if I am parsing these various comments incorrectly, my apologies.

Did the A1E look less saturated than the E7!only on HDR content, or also on SDR?
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post #1353 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:55 PM
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Yes but you are showing the SDR calibration. I was only referring to HDR10.
Exactly what I thought .
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post #1354 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Nobody knows right now. They will get 100,000 panels from LGD that is all we know. Except for LG which has five models manufacturers have limited to none variation in OLED models this year, don't expect that to change by much in 2018.
We'll have to wait and see. Alot will depend on how successful they are during this first year with OLED and how many panels they are able to commit to for next year (both Sony amd LGD).

And then there is the new 55" FHD panel offering - depending on the price LGD sells it for, that would allow Sony to easily offer a 'better, best' product lineup for 2018...
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post #1355 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 04:06 PM
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These are the HDR scans on my A1 after the Android update. Sorry I don't have equivalent scans for the C7.
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post #1356 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
These are the HDR scans on my A1 after the Android update. Sorry I don't have equivalent scans for the C7.
Since BT.2020 is the reference color space, you'd need the same data from your C7 to be able to compare HDR saturation...
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post #1357 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I wonder if what we saw on the A1 at the shootout was due to panel variation because on my A1 which is meticulously calibrated, the CMS looks fine.
The second set is from a C7.
I added the color volume runs for the A1 and then the C7.
Those charts only show a fraction of what is going on. You would need to do at least a 5G color checker and 10 point sat sweep run at 10% through 60% stimuli to get more info as to why I say the A1E needs a LUT Box.
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post #1358 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 05:29 PM
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Well, as some have already stated - this should knock Sony off of its arrogant *ss and lower their prices on the A1E.
But you have to pay the Sony tax.

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post #1359 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 05:47 PM
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I'm trying to. However I don't have enough people yet to make the trip. PM me your info and I'll add you to the list.
It's bigger than the US, so just being from Canada probably doesn't always help. Of course most of us do live near the southern edge, which helps a bit with the concentration.

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post #1360 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Those charts only show a fraction of what is going on. You would need to do at least a 5G color checker and 10 point sat sweep run at 10% through 60% stimuli to get more info as to why I say the A1E needs a LUT Box.
Yep I know. I was just trying to start some discussion on why the A1 at the shootout was less saturated.

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post #1361 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
(I don't believe I'm about to actually "agree" with KR)



Having seen the X300 presentation of the source encoded contouring, and see the E7 faithfully transmit the same source issue and the A1 seamlessly "clean it up" by default was a real eye-opener for me.



I prefer to see the artifacts, film grain, imaging flaws because as a content enthusiast, I like to determine the quality of the content encoding/production/streaming bitrate.


You can always turn off smooth gradation on the Sony. It was set to low for the shootout.
There's an always-on gradation corrector algorithm at work even when the setting is "off".

When "off" the A1 still 80% corrected the source gradation.

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post #1362 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Even when the white balance was exactly the same, The Sony lacked color saturation, as compared to the LG or the X300.
On day 1, this wasn't the case at all, I would have been the first one to call foul if so... and immediately walked out and not wasted any of my valuable time.

On day 2, it WAS the case, the color volume on the A1 was off.. the HDR looked like SDR to the E7 and the color was dull.. For the A1 to look so undersaturated is a smack-in-the-face to any owner of the TV that knows what it looks like by default.

I saw the settings on the A1 on day 2 and they were different.. recalibrated from day1 (see point 1 below).

I had no interest by day 2 to say anything about it, because:

1) That's Sony's job to ensure their product was on point both days, not the public to "fight" their battles and
2) D-Nice and jrref session at the end of day 1 showed me the "light" and I could have left day 1 happy with the A1's full performance for that day. I am glad I attended day 2 to see the A1 as presented that day to keep ownership sanity.. had I not attended day 2, my posts here would have likely been very offended based on the A1's representation on day 1.

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post #1363 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
"crushes"

Lol

"Hyperbole" won't make the sports move any smoother..

Just saying ?
To be fair, I've read plenty of hyperbole on the Sony side. 'Correcting' that hyperbole has been the thrust of half of my posts. With that said I totally agree, Archer's use of the word 'crushes' was totally over the top in describing the LG win.

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Even when the white balance was exactly the same, The Sony lacked color saturation, as compared to the LG or the X300. We know the panel is capable of the correct saturation, so I think the main difference is a different HDR color volume (tone) mapping strategy that each company is using. Remember there is no standard for that. That is just software, there's nothing preventing the TV manufactures from releasing a firmware update with new tone mapping. Unless they were handicapped by hardware LUT size in the TV, Which I doubt is the case.

Also for the Meridian DV vs HDR10 streaming, since the X300 was out of the question, because each TV was using its own internal app, we don't know which was correct or not.
Well at least from the standpoint of saturation, this removes 2nd day calibration 'errors' from the equation in terms of matching to the reference.
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post #1364 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 07:57 PM
 
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To be fair, I've read plenty of hyperbole on the Sony side. 'Correcting' that hyperbole has been the thrust of half of my posts. With that said I totally agree, Archer's use of the word 'crushes' was totally over the top in describing the LG win.
I've yet to read 1 A1 owner post their plans to return their A1 for an LG OLED due to the shootout result..

When I start to see that, I'll give Archer and his banter weight.
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post #1365 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I've yet to read 1 A1 owner post their plans to return their A1 for an LG OLED due to the shootout result..

When I start to see that, I'll give Archer and his banter weight.
Aww dang, I saw you specified the shootout results specifically. Nevermind my fun is ruined

But Ken is right, a lot of hyperbole has surrounded the A1 as well...

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post #1366 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:23 PM
 
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Aww dang, I saw you specified the shootout results specifically. Nevermind my fun is ruined

But Ken is right, a lot of hyperbole has surrounded the A1 as well...

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Whatever has surrounded the A1, owners have agreed it delivered upon and the A1 passed meeting that benchmark with owners a long time ago. Again, no A1 owners are jumping off the boat.. No A1 owner has expressed being bummed by not having chose the "winner". If I'm mistaken, please link to posts. There's harmony in the A1 owner's thread.. the biggest issue there is living with Android OS.

Now, what surrounds the LG OLED, have to be lived up to by those who believe in what the headlines are telling them... Will there be motion issues during the next Super Bowl or World Cup? Will there be HDCP sync issue when the OPPO 203 starts playing a Dolby Vision disc before the LG OLED is turned on forcing a factory reset in order to get the OPPO HDMI input signal back? Mysteriously auto reset picture settings? Mysteriously reset of streaming app passwords? Out the box picture quality confusion for those not able to understand why they need a "pro" talented calibrator and not just Geek Squad?

We'll see

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post #1367 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:28 PM
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Whatever has surrounded the A1, owners have agreed it delivered upon and the A1 passed meeting that benchmark with owners a long time ago. Again, no A1 owners are jumping off the boat.. No A1 owner has expressed being bummed by not having chose the "winner". If I'm mistaken, please link to posts. There's harmony in the A1 owner's thread.. the biggest issue there is living with Android OS.

Now, what surrounds the LG OLED, have to be lived up to by those who believe in what the headlines are telling them... Will there be motion issues during the next Super Bowl or World Cup? Will there be HDCP sync issue when the OPPO 203 starts playing a Dolby Vision disc before the LG OLED is turned on forcing a factory reset in order to get the OPPO HDMI input signal back? Mysteriously auto reset picture settings? Mysteriously reset of streaming app passwords? Out the box picture quality confusion for those not able to understand why they need a "pro" talented calibrator and not just Geek Squad?

We'll see
Ahh. There it is. I knew sooner or later you'd crack.

The planets are back in line.

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post #1368 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:33 PM
 
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Ahh. There it is. I knew sooner or later you'd crack.

The planets are back in line.

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As a W7 owner, its a warning of what to expect that the headlines are not telling you.
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post #1369 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:35 PM
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As a W7 owner, its a warning of what to expect that the headlines are not telling you.


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post #1370 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:38 PM
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Quick question: has the A1 had DV enabled yet? (legit question)

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post #1371 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 08:41 PM
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How 'bout that Vizio! Those oleds don't produce a 2k+ better picture and blacks. I don't care who you are.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Quick question: has the A1 had DV enabled yet? (legit question)

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No, Sony has yet to issue the DV update. Personally for me, I'm not accepting the update unless it can be turned off to not lose Sony's dynamic HDR10 remastering feature.

On the LG, the TV doesn't have a HDR10/DV switch, which is OK with me because DV is the better looking HDR format on the LG.
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post #1373 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:02 PM
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No, Sony has yet to issue the DV update. Personally for me, I'm not accepting the update unless it can be turned off to not lose Sony's dynamic HDR10 remastering feature.

On the LG, the TV doesn't have a HDR10/DV switch, which is OK with me because DV is the better looking HDR format on the LG.
OK. So I wouldn't jump the gun in assigning DV HDCP handshake issues involving the 203 to being the fault of the LG then.

Owning the 203 myself and participating in the 203 thread often I can tell you pretty much any issues arising in setup paths either involve the player itself (needing addressed with firmware updates since the DV ability has only been out a month and has bugs to work out) or improper HDMI cables coupled with improper player settings.

Just an FYI.

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post #1374 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:07 PM
 
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OK. So I wouldn't jump the gun in assigning DV HDCP handshake issues involving the 203 to being the fault of the LG then.

Owning the 203 myself and participating in the 203 thread often I can tell you pretty much any issues arising in setup paths either involve the player itself (needing addressed with firmware updates since the DV ability has only been out a month and has bugs to work out) or improper HDMI cables coupled with improper player settings.

Just an FYI.

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I'm currently at 3X 203 units.. on the A1 and 675es, the current updated FW presents flawless operation. The W7 unit is the only one that presents this issue and it only happens with DV 4K UHD titles. If the OPPO starts playing the DV title before the W7 is turned on, the video connection breaks and needs a reset from the TV or OPPO itself. All players are on Audioquest Chocolate HDMI.
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post #1375 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:12 PM
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I'm currently at 3X 203 units.. on the A1 and 675es, the current updated FW presents flawless operation. The W7 unit it the only one that presents this issue and it only happens with DV 4K UHD titles. All players are on Audioquest Chocolate HDMI.
And? As I said, the DV ability is fairly new to the 203 and still has a few kinks to be worked out. The Oppo is an ongoing firmware upgrade piece of electronic. A fantastic player but constant firmware releases none the less.

Considering you don't have any other display to test the DV related issue with, and being an analytical/technical guy yourself, you should know its a little reckless to make an assertion that it's a fault of the LG.



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post #1376 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:16 PM
 
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And? As I said, the DV ability is fairly new to the 203 and still has a few kinks to be worked out. The Oppo is an ongoing firmware upgrade piece of electronic. A fantastic player but constant firmware releases none the less.

Considering you don't have any other display to test the DV related issue with, and being an analytical/technical guy yourself, you should know its a little reckless to make an assertion that it's a fault of the LG.



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I'll give you this last bit of commentary.. the G6 is DV capable.. but..

The last DV movie I tried to play and faced this issue was Fate Of The Furious and I took it down to the A1's OPPO and watched it with Sony's dynamic HDR10 presentation.. the hassle is not worth the effort for what DV delivers opposed to the A1's dynamic delivery.

I put the discs in, they work on the A1, no need to play troubleshooter or wait for OPPO, LG and Dolby to get competent engineers to get it right.
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post #1377 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:17 PM
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Also, the very first troubleshooting tip to be followed in the Oppo thread is making sure your HDMI cables are Certified Premium. From the search I just did, the Audioquest cables are not.

But since this isn't an Oppo thread, I won't go into that bag of worms. Just pointing out its pretty reckless to make a claim that people getting the LG should expect DV handshake issues as a fault laid on the TV and not the player or other factors.

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post #1378 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:18 PM
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I put the discs in, they work on the A1, no need to play troubleshooter.
Good to hear. Doesn't mean it's a fault of the LG though.

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post #1379 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:22 PM
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or wait for OPPO, LG and Dolby to get competent engineers to get it right.
Is there an eye roll emoji?

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post #1380 of 3546 Old 07-15-2017, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
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I'm very happy that not one LG owner has done any crowing in either Sony thread. Kudos!
I think it says a lot. We LG owners knew the A1 was(would be) a fantastic television. We certainly couldnt put it down and say it was garbage like some said about the LG. Its an OLED and Sony knows cinema. And most, if not all, were non-owners of OLED that were smack talkin'.

The part that still rubs me the wrong way is all the people that still talk $**** about motion issues with the LG. People need to stop. Not all movies move the same and not all cinematographers pans are smooth. Put a plasma next to your LG and it can be dialed in. And if you cant, check your blu ray players' settings. I thought there was a huge problem playing dvds, but it ended up being my Sony blu ray players settings. I still think there are some that have no idea what Soap Opera effect is and there are those that have no idea that 24p movies have a natural judder to them. Some cinematographers pan smoother than others and some pans look juddery. Thats just cinema. Dont blame it on the tv. If something looks unwatchable in 24p on your LG, you are doing something wrong.
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Sony 65A1E
LG 65EF9500
LG 55EG9100
Samsung 60F8500
LG UP870 Multi-Region
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