2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 54 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1591 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by New24K View Post
Why would that be?

Talk about not being transparent.
I'm just trying to be humorous with the Sammy comment, but I have a feeling it might have come in behind the Westinghouse; i.e. dead last. That would be some serious facial egging action - wouldn't want that to get out.

Not sure if they did the same last year or not.
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post #1592 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:24 PM
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Why would that be?

Talk about not being transparent.
Perhaps you have not heard of the 2017 'QLED' TVs (or the 'LED' TVs that predate them ).
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post #1593 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
I'm just trying to be humorous with the Sammy comment, but I have a feeling it might have come in behind the Westinghouse; i.e. dead last. That would be some serious facial egging action - wouldn't want that to get out.

Not sure if they did the same last year or not.
NO!

Every year prior they have given out ALL of the scores.

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post #1594 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:24 PM
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-snip In the end, the best solution will win (and if they are both roughly equivalent, they will coexist, like Dolby Digital and DTS surround sound ).
Coexist would be great. But as I suggested earlier, some movies do not need any enhancements for the same reason you wonder why they were made in the first place!
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post #1595 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:26 PM
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Ouch (and probably correct).
Samsung doesn't seem to want to make a serious tv. They're content to sell cheap "mainstream " sets at BB where their salespeople push Samsung.

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post #1596 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:29 PM
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Samsung doesn't seem to want to make a serious tv. They're content to sell cheap "mainstream " sets at BB where their salespeople push Samsung.
Agreed. As @video_analysis calls them Shamsung! Which is right in line with some cheaper alternative products coming out of some countries!
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post #1597 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:31 PM
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Do we know if the 2016 units are certified for DV @60fps??

This is really a weird one.
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Since your W7 is playing DV, it must be something to do with DV @ 60 on 2016's - as in "not-at-this-time" or maybe "never".
It might be a hardware limitation like the 2016 Vizio P Series. Vizio CTO Matt McRae mentioned it was because DV did not include framerates beyond 30fps at the time of the hardware's design. And doubling that to 60fps requires significant horsepower that only updated hardware could provide. That may be why it works on 2017 LGs but not 2016 LGs.
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post #1598 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:32 PM
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NO!

Every year prior they have given out ALL of the scores.
This year was done very differently. Last year the winner was chosen by the general public. This year it was done with the judges doing the scoring and using a more objective scientific approach. It help to reduce or eliminate any brand bias.

I wanted to know the same as you, because I was curious to know how well the Vizio did. Lots of positive comments were made during the event. Alas, I guess I'll never know.
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post #1599 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
It might be a hardware limitation like the 2016 Vizio P Series. Vizio CTO Matt McRae mentioned it was because DV did not include framerates beyond 30fps at the time of the hardware's design. And doubling that to 60fps requires significant horsepower that only updated hardware could provide. That may be why it works on 2017 LGs but not 2016 LGs.
Even if all of this is correct, doesn't explain why 2016 OLEDs don't accept a 60fps DV stream and 'fall-back' to 30-fps display (toss every other frame) rather than reject the DV stream and 'fall-back' to 30fps HDR10 stream instead...
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post #1600 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:37 PM
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Was anyone on this thread present that can comment subjectively on the Vizio's performance? Looking to get something for my parents. Obviously the best of the best would be nice, but that's not necessarily practical and sometimes it's just splitting hairs.

Also reading between the lines here but I gather VE is no longer involved in this "shootout" but since they own the copyright their name is listed sometimes at the bottom with an asterisk?
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post #1601 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
This year was done very differently. Last year the winner was chosen by the general public. This year it was done with the judges doing the scoring and using a more objective scientific approach. It help to reduce or eliminate any brand bias.

I wanted to know the same as you, because I was curious to know how well the Vizio did. Lots of positive comments were made during the event. Alas, I guess I'll never know.
As a minimum, they should rank the top 3 entrants and publish their scores. If you are not confident your TV is one of the best 3 in the world, you have no business entering the Shootout...
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post #1602 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post
Was anyone on this thread present that can comment subjectively on the Vizio's performance? Looking to get something for my parents. Obviously the best of the best would be nice, but that's not necessarily practical and sometimes it's just splitting hairs.

Also reading between the lines here but I gather VE is no longer involved in this "shootout" but since they own the copyright their name is listed sometimes at the bottom with an asterisk?
I think you can find imagic's posts from the event where he commented that the Vizio P was the undisputed 'value winner' (for the second year in a row).
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post #1603 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Even if all of this is correct, doesn't explain why 2016 OLEDs don't accept a 60fps DV stream and 'fall-back' to 30-fps display (toss every other frame) rather than reject the DV stream and 'fall-back' to 30fps HDR10 stream instead...
I was pulling 60fps HDR-10 no problem. 2016 E6. So the fall back is HDR-10 which is not such a bad thing. It would be nice if the 60fps DV stream could be chopped in half, but not really necessary as most DV streams are 4:2:2 @ 24. So far, only this 12 minute short film stands between me and 60fps DV bliss.. I don't think there's much else out there - if any.
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post #1604 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
Since your W7 is playing DV, it must be something to do with DV @ 60 on 2016's - as in "not-at-this-time" or maybe "never".

Were you able to notice any difference in PQ with DV vs. HDR-10? One thing I can't really stand is the almost-headache-inducing SOE from the 60Hz presentation. I much prefer 24Hz - judder and all! I'm old school and proud of it!
I just looked at this again for this post on the G6, now playing on the W7 and here is what I see:

The DV version is superior to the HDR10 version in that there are easily visible more layers of contrast from dark to light.

More shade detials and the brights are more definite/contained in image spaces whereas the HDR10 G6 performance brights looks more "soft"...

There's also more global image luminance and color volume in the DV version, lightning has a more perceived brightness...

If a person only saw the HDR10 version on the G6, they wouldn't believe the PQ could possibly be better.. the DV stream is easily much more dynamic with the dark/color of the thunder sky.. Highlights are more sharp and bright in the cave scene... easily can see the difference.

But, this is only the 2nd 60fps 4K content I know of, the other being Billy Lynn Halftime Walk 4K UHD.

I agree with the 24fps, I love film to look like "moving pictures" film.
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post #1605 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post
Was anyone on this thread present that can comment subjectively on the Vizio's performance? Looking to get something for my parents. Obviously the best of the best would be nice, but that's not necessarily practical and sometimes it's just splitting hairs.

Also reading between the lines here but I gather VE is no longer involved in this "shootout" but since they own the copyright their name is listed sometimes at the bottom with an asterisk?
The Vizio performed better than the Q9 in my opinion. The black level performance was second to the Z9 in LEDs.
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post #1606 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:49 PM
 
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To add insult to injury, their plasma's got rave reviews for PQ, while at the same time, their LCD models generally did not garner much praise. If those sets were FALD, the implementation was off, because poor black levels were the biggest complaint at the time. At the same time, the Vizio FALD implementation was getting high marks.

Before they try to re-enter the US market with another OLED offering, they need to do some R&D. The current model being sold in Europe isn't going to cut it. Currently, they're OEM'ing an LG panel, their processors do not have the chops to play Dolby Vision ( so it can't be added with a FW update ), there's no CMS. Basically it's the A1 without an X1 - and for more money. The reviewers will not be kind in its current form.
Where are you getting that panasonic does not have CMS? From what I remember I was told by the guy at the store when demoing the panasonic oled in my country that the panasonic oleds have a full CMS, I did not have a chance to try the controls as I was only demoing the set but they have them (I think you have to switch to professional 1 or 2 mode to calibrate). The reviews also state it
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EZ950 also offers a complete CMS, so you can tweak the color primaries / gamut for both SRD and HDR
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1499666281
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it comes with a full set of calibration controls including a 2- and 10-point white balance control and a full colour management system (CMS)
https://www.avforums.com/review/pana...v-review.13312
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post #1607 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:50 PM
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@facesnorth

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I think you can find imagic's posts from the event where he commented that the Vizio P was the undisputed 'value winner' (for the second year in a row).
The 2016/2017 Vizio P series is a CNET editors choice. You literally need to spend 2x on a different brand to get comparable or better PQ. The improvements in PQ for the extra cost will be --- like you said --- splitting hairs.

Flame protection: ( I know that there are 2016 LG OLED's out there at a discount, but they're getting hard to find ).
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post #1608 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:56 PM
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Where are you getting that panasonic does not have CMS? From what I remember I was told by the guy at the store when demoing the panasonic oled in my country that the panasonic oleds have a full CMS, I did not have a chance to try the controls as I was only demoing the set but they have them (I think you have to switch to professional 1 or 2 mode to calibrate). The reviews also state ithttp://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1499666281
https://www.avforums.com/review/pana...v-review.13312
My apologies. I stand corrected. I watched an early video review, and I thought I heard "no CMS", but English was not the reviewer's primary language. Possibly a FW update added it?

Kind of hard to pay close attention to a TV I can't buy.
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post #1609 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:57 PM
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I just looked at this again for this post on the G6, now playing on the W7 and here is what I see:



The DV version is superior to the HDR10 version in that there are easily visible more layers of contrast from dark to light.



More shade detials and the brights are more definite/contained in image spaces whereas the HDR10 G6 performance brights looks more "soft"...



There's also more global image luminance and color volume in the DV version, lightning has a more perceived brightness...



If a person only saw the HDR10 version on the G6, they wouldn't believe the PQ could possibly be better.. the DV stream is easily much more dynamic with the dark/color of the thunder sky.. Highlights are more sharp and bright in the cave scene... easily can see the difference.



But, this is only the 2nd 60fps 4K content I know of, the other being Billy Lynn Halftime Walk 4K UHD.



I agree with the 24fps, I love film to look like "moving pictures" film.


Al how does this stream compare to your AE1 and how the XE1 processes the HDR10. I assume this process is similar to LG "active" HDR.


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post #1610 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 01:58 PM
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I was pulling 60fps HDR-10 no problem. 2016 E6. So the fall back is HDR-10 which is not such a bad thing. It would be nice if the 60fps DV stream could be chopped in half, but not really necessary as most DV streams are 4:2:2 @ 24. So far, only this 12 minute short film stands between me and 60fps DV. I don't think there's much else out there - if any.
Meridian and Sparks on Netflix are the only 60fps DV titles in existence that I know of. And they are just short demos. The only feature at 60fps is Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk, but the disc is HDR10; maybe it will get a DV re-release someday. I know Dolby is starting to push hard into the live HDR broadcast area, so sometime in the future there may be DV sports broadcasts or something similar at 60fps.
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post #1611 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:01 PM
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My apologies. I stand corrected. I watched an early video review, and I thought I heard "no CMS", but English was not the reviewer's primary language. Possibly a FW update added it?

Kind of hard to pay close attention to a TV I can't buy.
I believe the Panasonic has a full 3D-LUT which allows them to offer the best CMS possible....

At least that is what they told me at CES and what their recent Flagship FALD LED/LCD TVs have had.
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post #1612 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:06 PM
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Meridian and Sparks on Netflix are the only 60fps DV titles in existence that I know of. And they are just short demos. The only feature at 60fps is Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk, but the disc is HDR10; maybe it will get a DV re-release someday. I know Dolby is starting to push hard into the live HDR broadcast area, so sometime in the future there may be DV sports broadcasts or something similar at 60fps.
All of this reinforces my gut feeling that I should pass on the 2017s and wait a year or two to see how this HDR stuff shakes out...

If the only current content I'm forced to view in HDR10 instead of Dolby Vision is a few 60fps HDR shorts, not the end of the world.

By the time their are compelling HFR DV UHD Blurays I want to watch in full glory, all of this dust should have cleared and I'll have an excuse to upgrade .
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post #1613 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:07 PM
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Was anyone on this thread present that can comment subjectively on the Vizio's performance? Looking to get something for my parents. Obviously the best of the best would be nice, but that's not necessarily practical and sometimes it's just splitting hairs.
The Vizio P-Series is exactly what I would buy for my parents. It performed exceptionally well for a sub-$1,000 TV. I agree with Al that it bested the $5,000 Q9 in several respects.

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post #1614 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:19 PM
 
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Al how does this stream compare to your AE1 and how the XE1 processes the HDR10. I assume this process is similar to LG "active" HDR.


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I've affirmed again here at home as I did at the shootout, my opinion is the Sony dynamic HDR10 presentation meet the DV dynamics and further is superior in image balances to this Meridian DV stream.

I find LG's "Active HDR" works, on day 2 of the Shootout, it was active on the E7, but in my opinion, it doesn't take HDR10 content dynamically to the same performance height as Sony's process of where I could say the LG process ever looked equal or better than Dolby Vision; which for LG is a small matter because LG is the most capable "real" DV platform...

The paradox for me so far is I find playing content like Daredevil S2, ep12 - the Sony HDR10 dynamic performance here was the first instance I noticed the A1E was doing something "special" with HDR10, the dynamic HDR performance being superior to the DV version with the bright highlights of the sunlight coming through the cracks of the dark warehouse, the black level details of the Punisher sitting in the woods, then going into a utility room in those woods and turning on a florescent light that just pierces off the screen on top of those dark backgrounds not being affected in performance due to the volume of OLED pixels separating the dark/light performance.. the DV version of this episode, in my opinion, doesn't present the contrast of light-dark no where near the same..

But..

As related to DV disc content, I've found Sony's dynamic HDR10 with Fate Of The Furious delivers to 90% of what the real DV disc version delivers to the W7 in comparison, which is really saying a ton as full bitrate Dolby Vision is a very heavyweight PQ fidelity experience to the point that if I attempt to adjust any settings in the Cinema DV picture mode on the W7 past the default (like Brightness up 3 to 53) the W7 processor can't take it and black level performance get sketchy and motion judder gets extreme.. I said it before, and I'll say it again, default picture settings on the W7 with DV discs ensures a flawless experience of DV..

For Sony to achieve 90% of that with all HDR10 discs while processing dynamic metadata, is remarkable..

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Is it even confirmed that the sony has dynamic metadata insertion?

Because if that was the case, I don't think wed see highlight blowouts/clipping like we've seen
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post #1616 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:24 PM
 
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Is it even confirmed that the sony has dynamic metadata insertion?

Because if that was the case, I don't think wed see highlight blowouts/clipping like we've seen
It's always-on,.. pushed more aggressively through the use of ACE and Contrast as of the latest FW update (June 1).

When settings are in tune with the X1E algorithm, there are no blown highlights.

The trick is being able to keep up with the changes Sony makes to the algorithm on each update.
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post #1617 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:25 PM
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And to be very clear.. The A1's handling of HDR10 "dynamically" IS superior to Dolby Vision.. That wasn't the contest, but to anyone into UHD, this is a very big deal. Anyone attending the Meridian streaming portion of the shootout on both days, saw this side-by-side demonstration. For me, this is the only point of the comparisons that provided personal verification to my admiration of both sets.

If the A1 didn't offer dynamic HDR10 remastering, I wouldn't own the A1 and would have returned them both.

My "settings" posts and admiration for the A1 has always been around the dynamic HDR10 handling, look it up.. I don't watch cable on my A1.. I don't watch USB video, DVDs, or 480p content on my A1... no gaming (the W7 is used for games) My A1 is fed 4K UHD or Blu-ray discs 95% of the time.
I don't understand how the shootout omits HDR-10 PQ EOTF tracking.
That would be like ignoring gamma tracking in SDR.

There is no tone-mapping standard but there is a P Q EOTF that seems to have been thrown out the window.
If a display does not track luminance, how can it be calibrated or accurate?

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post #1618 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:25 PM
 
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Is it even confirmed that the sony has dynamic metadata insertion?

Because if that was the case, I don't think wed see highlight blowouts/clipping like we've seen
It's always-on,.. pushed more aggressively through the use of ACE and Contrast as of the latest FW update (June 1).
Not sure if I believe it. If that was the case there wouldn't be clipping.

There's a difference between inserting dynamic metadata in the fly and just throwing out metadata entirely and clipping.
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post #1619 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:26 PM
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No one said it had to be sold in Best Buy now did they? There are multiple divisions within Panasonic that "can" sell that OLED in he US. It does not have to be the division that would deal with Best Buy, Amazon and the likes.
Correct no one said it had to be sold in Best Buy. But that still doesn't answer the question of if they intend to bring out an Oled this year why remain quiet when showing it off at different events. If they were fully committed to releasing the television in the United States this year it would be easy enough for them to say that the Oled's "will" be sold in the US but the release date is tbd. So far they have not done that when their competitors are already selling Oled's in the US.



If Panasonic does come back to the US market this year with Oled's that would be great. More choices/competition is always better. However many people have doubts that it's not going to happen this year and reasonably so based on the messaging/actions of Panasonic so far.
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post #1620 of 3546 Old 07-17-2017, 02:27 PM
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They won't even give out the scores!

All the more reason the European/Crampton & Moore - which will include the Panasonic - is the better shootout this year.
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