2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 02:21 PM
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post #212 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 03:25 PM
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There's a successor? Last year Vizio would have preferred the P series to be in the shootout instead of the R series.
No R Series successor yet and the P series looks like being the same as last year. The 2017 panel, processor, inputs and other hardware and external design are identical, only the software is improved. Stagnation must have something to do with the failed chinese takeover. Not a good time for Vizio to participate in a Shootout anyway..The R series dispite its flaws has the allure of a top of the line, the P series has not that is why it is unlikely that it will participate.
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post #213 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 04:45 PM
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No R Series successor yet and the P series looks like being the same as last year. The 2017 panel, processor, inputs and other hardware and external design are identical, only the software is improved. Stagnation must have something to do with the failed chinese takeover. Not a good time for Vizio to participate in a Shootout anyway..The R series dispite its flaws has the allure of a top of the line, the P series has not that is why it is unlikely that it will participate.
I think you're in for a long wait on that R Series successor. It ended up being more of an embarrassment to Vizio than ever having the allure of a top of a line model. Since the P series is currently on the most likely to make the cut list I'm thinking it's more likely than unlikely that it will participate in this year's shootout. Assuming it does participate the P series will likely finish last however I'll be quite amused if it finished ahead of the Q9.
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post #214 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe a RS65-B2 successor would be allowed to participate. Any other Vizio model is not going to happen..


I'm pretty sure last year there may have been a disagreement with Robert and Vizio about which TV to use. Could have happened this year too.

As for this year, can the 2016 Vizio R even be ordered? Someone posted in the owners thread last month that he tried to buy 1 and wasn't able to. Also, I don't believe it ever got the HDR10 update either.

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post #215 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 05:53 PM
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I'd like to see the 75x940e there if for no other reason than how it compares to the Z9D.

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post #216 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 06:06 PM
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No R Series successor yet and the P series looks like being the same as last year. The 2017 panel, processor, inputs and other hardware and external design are identical, only the software is improved. Stagnation must have something to do with the failed chinese takeover. Not a good time for Vizio to participate in a Shootout anyway..The R series dispite its flaws has the allure of a top of the line, the P series has not that is why it is unlikely that it will participate.
When Vizio introduced the P series for the 2014 model year, they said at the time that its hardware would be on a TWO YEAR refresh cycle. So, there's no stagnation, and LeEco's aborted acquisition was simply that. Vizio didn't need LeEco in order flourish, but LeEco needed Vizio's U.S. distribution channels. The P series is actually a viable candidate, and their recent firmware updates have done wonders for PQ.
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post #217 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 09:44 PM
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When Vizio introduced the P series for the 2014 model year, they said at the time that its hardware would be on a TWO YEAR refresh cycle. So, there's no stagnation, and LeEco's aborted acquisition was simply that. Vizio didn't need LeEco in order flourish, but LeEco needed Vizio's U.S. distribution channels. The P series is actually a viable candidate, and their recent firmware updates have done wonders for PQ.
From what i understand Vizio and LeEco spend six months talking after which they announced that LeEco would buy Vizio for $2 billion in juli 2016. In april 2017 it turns out that LeEco has money problems and because of that the deal is off.

It is a big deal when someone takes over your company. And when after believing for six months that the takeover is prettymuch a fact and it turns out that it ain't going to happen that surely must have had some impact on mindset, planning and money spending at Vizio. Vizio hoped for instance with LeEco's help to increase international sales of TVs and speakers. According experts without new ventures, Vizio could see stiff competition chip away profits and its long-term viability challenged.
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post #218 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 09:53 PM
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I'm pretty sure last year there may have been a disagreement with Robert and Vizio about which TV to use. Could have happened this year too.

As for this year, can the 2016 Vizio R even be ordered? Someone posted in the owners thread last month that he tried to buy 1 and wasn't able to. Also, I don't believe it ever got the HDR10 update either.
Only a few of those were sold. Some folks still believe that the R series product never existed. I think that it was a poor attempt to join the expensive high-end stuff and it shows that they ain't ready for that yet, or maybe it is not what they are good at.
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post #219 of 3546 Old 06-15-2017, 10:27 PM
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From what i understand Vizio and LeEco spend six months talking after which they announced that LeEco would buy Vizio for $2 billion in juli 2016. In april 2017 it turns out that LeEco has money problems and because of that the deal is off.

It is a big deal when someone takes over your company. And when after believing for six months that the takeover is prettymuch a fact and it turns out that it ain't going to happen that surely must have had some impact on mindset, planning and money spending at Vizio. Vizio hoped for instance with LeEco's help to increase international sales of TVs and speakers. According experts without new ventures, Vizio could see stiff competition chip away profits and its long-term viability challenged.
I think that the only Vizio employee who might have been disappointed when the deal fell through was the founder. He was looking forward to that $2 billion bag of cash. The deal obviously did not impact Vizio's R&D budget. They've introduced, and are now shipping a full lineup of new for 2017 D, E, and M series hardware with significant updates. Next year, the P series will get its refresh/upgrade. Right on schedule. My point was that the LeEco deal did not cause any stagnation. Vizio wasn't going away.
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post #220 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 04:50 AM
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I think that the only Vizio employee who might have been disappointed when the deal fell through was the founder. He was looking forward to that $2 billion bag of cash. The deal obviously did not impact Vizio's R&D budget. They've introduced, and are now shipping a full lineup of new for 2017 D, E, and M series hardware with significant updates. Next year, the P series will get its refresh/upgrade. Right on schedule. My point was that the LeEco deal did not cause any stagnation. Vizio wasn't going away.
With a takeover and increase of sales they might have some extra money to put a few OLEDs on the market...and/or maybe a successor to the R Series. Surely more cash would give them some room to make some adventures moves..that is not going to happen now.
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post #221 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 08:12 AM
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With a takeover and increase of sales they might have some extra money to put a few OLEDs on the market...and/or maybe a successor to the R Series. Surely more cash would give them some room to make some adventures moves..that is not going to happen now.
I get all of that, but it's pure speculation on your part as to Vizio's future product plans and directions. Your assertion that the P series was stagnating due to the LeEco deal was the only reason I chimed in. There would have been less of a chance under LeEco's ownership that Vizio might make some adventurous moves because the problem with LeEco is that they don't have any cash. That's why the deal fell through. Vizio is better off as an agile American based independent entity producing quality feature laden products for 1/2 the price of the competition.

Looking forward to the shootout.
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post #222 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 09:33 AM
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If D-Nice is correct, and the Panasonic OLEDs will be sold in the US before the holidays - the Panasonic EZ1000/1002 should definitely be in this shootout.

Every professional to review it has stated that it is the best OLED TV/TV for 2017.
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post #223 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 10:04 AM
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If D-Nice is correct, and the Panasonic OLEDs will be sold in the US before the holidays - the Panasonic EZ1000/1002 should definitely be in this shootout.

Every professional to review it has stated that it is the best OLED TV/TV for 2017.
I don't think it's a good idea to use prototypes. That way if it didn't show as well as expected, there won't be a bunch of "pre-production" excuses. It really needs to be a currently shipping product. If it's as good as the hype, then it should kick serious booty next year.

Do you have any links to these reviews you mentioned?
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post #224 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 11:14 AM
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I don't think it's a good idea to use prototypes. That way if it didn't show as well as expected, there won't be a bunch of "pre-production" excuses. It really needs to be a currently shipping product. If it's as good as the hype, then it should kick serious booty next year.

Do you have any links to these reviews you mentioned?
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post #225 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 11:31 AM
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http://www.techradar.com/reviews/panasonic-ez1002-oled
The reviews look good. For the price they'd better be. It's not currently available for purchase in the U.S., so it won't make the cut for this year's shootout. Maybe next year.

Also, at $9,000 for a 65" and no Dolby Vision support - I'll pass.
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post #226 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 11:52 AM
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I don't think it's a good idea to use prototypes. That way if it didn't show as well as expected, there won't be a bunch of "pre-production" excuses. It really needs to be a currently shipping product. If it's as good as the hype, then it should kick serious booty next year.

Do you have any links to these reviews you mentioned?
It's not a prototype - it is selling already around the world.

It just won't make it to the US, according to D-Nice, for a few more months.

Here is a stellar, very thorough (albeit long) video review:


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post #227 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 12:57 PM
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Also, at $9,000 for a 65" and no Dolby Vision support - I'll pass.

It's not $9,000 - it is $6,500

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post #228 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 05:01 PM
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I get all of that, but it's pure speculation on your part as to Vizio's future product plans and directions.
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Your assertion that the P series was stagnating due to the LeEco deal was the only reason I chimed in.
I get that..
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There would have been less of a chance under LeEco's ownership that Vizio might make some adventurous moves because the problem with LeEco is that they don't have any cash. That's why the deal fell through.
ok.
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Vizio is better off as an agile American based independent entity producing quality feature laden products for 1/2 the price of the competition.
When Wang gets a good offer he will sell. Some suggested that other chinese manufacturers might be interested in Vizio. It looks to me though that he will have a hard time finding another buyer.
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post #229 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 08:25 PM
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It's not $9,000 - it is $6,500
I saw a price in the U.K that was around 7,000 pounds. ( couldn't find the character for "pounds" ). That translated to $9K. Must be some serious tariffs going on in "jolly old".

Regardless of the price, not having support for Dolby Vision is a deal breaker.

Thanks to everyone for all the info. It looks like a fantastic TV. I've always had a fond appreciation for Panny products. Their plasma's were phenomenal. Too bad they couldn't get it into the U.S. in time for this year's shootout. Next year is looking even more interesting for OLED's!!
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post #230 of 3546 Old 06-16-2017, 08:26 PM
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When Wang gets a good offer he will sell. Some suggested that other chinese manufacturers might be interested in Vizio. It looks to me though that he will have a hard time finding another buyer.
No doubt.
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Since this is a new york "shootout" event, i dont think any other oled brand would be included this year other than lg and sony. But having now seen the panasonic right next to the lg and sony oleds (im not in america), to my "untrained" eye, the panasonic seemed a little better than the other two. If you set aside pricing and lack of DV, i would give the nod on PQ to panasonic. I do they think they'll be having similar events in uk or europe, so let's see if the panasonic oled makes it to the top or not. The professional reviewers would be using their "trained eyes" which according to them ordinary humans dont possess.
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post #232 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 05:27 AM
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Since this is a new york "shootout" event, i dont think any other oled brand would be included this year other than lg and sony. But having now seen the panasonic right next to the lg and sony oleds (im not in america), to my "untrained" eye, the panasonic seemed a little better than the other two. If you set aside pricing and lack of DV, i would give the nod on PQ to panasonic. I do they think they'll be having similar events in uk or europe, so let's see if the panasonic oled makes it to the top or not. The professional reviewers would be using their "trained eyes" which according to them ordinary humans dont possess.
Yes, people who don't train, don't possess the benefits of that training. A surgeon trains to use a scalpel. A pilot trains to fly a plane. A runner trains for a marathon and a boxer trains to fight. Without that training, one's physical abilities are not as well honed. I like driving cars but I am not trained at driving Indycars so I have no chance of winning the Indy 500.

There is a big difference between claiming some unusual genetic trait like super-human visual acuity (like being able to see infrared light) and having training that lets you perform specific tasks better than a person who lacks training.

Of course there are cases where it helps to combine training with doing a task that you are physically gifted at. So, if you have 20/10 vision and have training in mastering 4K HDR video, you may very well be able to see more issues with a display than a glasses or contacts-wearing lawyer who just walked into an electronics store to look at and perhaps purchase a TV.

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^To me, people like these are just like the ones in the audio field, claiming they are industry insiders working in recording studios, so only they possess the 'trained ear' unlike ordinary people to make judgment on what is the best sounding headphone or HTS. I don't ignore their opinions, but i use them as a reference point, i let my own eyes or ears be the final judge by demoing the video or audio gear in question. What i'll be watching/hearing in my room in the end will be through my "untrained" senses.
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post #234 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 07:15 AM
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^To me, people like these are just like the ones in the audio field, claiming they are industry insiders working in recording studios, so only they possess the 'trained ear' unlike ordinary people to make judgment on what is the best sounding headphone or HTS. I don't ignore their opinions, but i use them as a reference point, i let my own eyes or ears be the final judge by demoing the video or audio gear in question. What i'll be watching/hearing in my room in the end will be through my "untrained" senses.
But... AV enthusiasts often do not have untrained senses. Same goes for audio enthusiasts. Just look at how folks here discuss black levels and letterbox bars and OLED versus FALD and then compare that to what a "typical" consumer sees when they look at a TV. Often it's worlds apart. "Training" is basically the effect where once you see a flaw in a display, you can't un-see it.

If you pay attention to something, you are training your senses. I do not agree with any notion that only a pro can achieve these things. Just like an amateur can train for a marathon and post a good time that competes with pros, so can AV enthusiasts here on AVS Forum learn and train themselves to be better at judging and scrutinizing gear. I am virulently opposed to the idea that "only an expert" can be a good judge, or have the requisite training.

The pilot example is a good one. Many people who are pilots learn to fly as a hobby, not so that they can make it a career. They train the same way as the pros and nothing stops 'em from acquiring the same skills as a pro, if they are dedicated.

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post #235 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 07:19 AM
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But... AV enthusiasts often do not have untrained senses. Same goes for audio enthusiasts. Just look at how folks here discuss black levels and letterbox bars and OLED versus FALD and then compare that to what a "typical" consumer sees when they look at a TV. Often it's worlds apart. "Training" is basically the effect where once you see a flaw in a display, you can't un-see it.

If you pay attention to something, you are training your senses. I do not agree that only a pro can achieve these things. Just like an amateur can train for a marathon and post a good time that competes with pros, so can AV enthusiasts here on AVS Forum learn and train themselves to be better at judging and scrutinizing gear. I am virulently opposed to the idea that "only an expert" can be a good judge, or have the requisite training.

The pilot example is a good one. Many people who are pilots learn to fly as a hobby, not so that they can make it a career. They train the same way as the pros and nothing stops 'em from acquiring the same skills as a pro, if they are dedicated.
+1
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post #236 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 07:27 AM
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Since this is a new york "shootout" event, i dont think any other oled brand would be included this year other than lg and sony. But having now seen the panasonic right next to the lg and sony oleds (im not in america), to my "untrained" eye, the panasonic seemed a little better than the other two. If you set aside pricing and lack of DV, i would give the nod on PQ to panasonic. I do they think they'll be having similar events in uk or europe, so let's see if the panasonic oled makes it to the top or not. The professional reviewers would be using their "trained eyes" which according to them ordinary humans dont possess.
I think the better adjective to describe the eyes of the judges would be "experienced". The training was completed years ago. The location of the event is meaningless. Most of the participants will be arriving to the event from locales outside of New York, and in some cases outside of the U.S. If the Panasonic was available for purchase in the states, I'm certain it would have been part of the this event.

Interesting to note is that the Panasonic also uses an LG panel. So here we go again with the "superior" processing that makes one display possess better PQ than another - even though the panels are essentially the same. The lack of Dolby Vision is a deal breaker. In order for a TV to handle DV, it needs a very powerful SoC and DV is not freeware. Unlike HDR-10 which can be implemented through software, if the TV can't do DV now, there will be no adding it later. There's two disappointing cost cutting corners that Panasonic chose to take.
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post #237 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
I think the better adjective to describe the eyes of the judges would be "experienced". The training was completed years ago. The location of the event is meaningless. Most of the participants will be arriving to the event from locales outside of New York, and in some cases outside of the U.S. If the Panasonic was available for purchase in the states, I'm certain it would have been part of the this event.

Interesting to note is that the Panasonic also uses an LG panel. So here we go again with the "superior" processing that makes one display possess better PQ than another - even though the panels are essentially the same. The lack of Dolby Vision is a deal breaker. In order for a TV to handle DV, it needs a very powerful SoC and DV is not freeware. Unlike HDR-10 which can be implemented through software, if the TV can't do DV now, there will be no adding it later. There's two disappointing cost cutting corners that Panasonic chose to take.
I'd love to know how Vizio can put Dolby Vision in its affordable M-Series, or how TCL affords putting Dolby Vision in its 55" P-Series that costs $600 and gives you 72-zone FALD. How can they do it if adding DV is prohibitively expensive to the point that Panasonic can't afford it for its flagship TV?

I truly do not have insight into this.t I do find it odd that Dolby Vision is found in TVs that are priced to sell in large quantities, and not on a luxury TV that costs multiple times more. Maybe there's an economy of scale issue?

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Last edited by imagic; 06-18-2017 at 07:42 AM.
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post #238 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 07:37 AM
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Can you explain how it is that Vizio puts Dolby Vision in its affordable M-Series, and now TCL puts Dolby Vision in its 55" P-Series that costs $600 and gives you 72-zone FALD, if adding it is prohibitively expensive to the point that Panasonic can't afford these things for its flagship TV?

I truly do not have insight into this, but I do find it odd that Dolby Vision is found on Vizio and TCL models that are priced to sell in large quantities, and not on a luxury TV that costs multiple times more.
I would think this would do more with licensing than hardware even though you would be amazed as to what manufacturers will cut to save a penny in each unit's material cost.
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post #239 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 07:41 AM
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The pilot example is a good one. Many people who are pilots learn to fly as a hobby, not so that they can make it a career. They train the same way as the pros and nothing stops 'em from acquiring the same skills as a pro, if they are dedicated.
Oh please! Single engine weekend propeller jockeys do not have to go through anything close to the training and testing that a multi-engine jet certification requires. A similar analogy can be made with the training and experience that most of the judges at this event will possess. They are the jet pilots on this industry. We consumers are the propeller jockeys.
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post #240 of 3546 Old 06-18-2017, 07:45 AM
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Oh please! Single engine weekend propeller jockeys do not have to go through anything close to the training and testing that a multi-engine jet certification requires. A similar analogy can be made with the training and experience that most of the judges at this event will possess. They are the jet pilots on this industry. We consumers are the propeller jockeys.
No they do not. But, if they WANT to they can master flying a jet. That's all I am saying. John Travolta did it. Now, I am not about to claim that AVS Forum members are the John Travoltas of the AV industry, but... all I'm saying is that there are no hard limits on what dedicated enthusiasts can do.


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