2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 87 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2581 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
So you wasted all this text because you have no objective way to prove your point? Your opinion is subjective.

Move on... I have 4 2017 OLEDs here (55C7, 65C7, 55A1E, 65A1E). I have 2 2016 OLEDs here (55B6... in storage, 65B6... in storage). I have 2 LED LCDs here (49" 900E, 65Z9D... testing only). I STILL have 5 Kuros here (1 500M...retired, 2 101FDs... 1 retired and 1 used as reference point, 1 141FD... used as reference point, 1 4280HD... retired). I don't think I have an issue upgrading my Kuros since that has already been done. I simply replaced them with OLEDs and not Z9Ds because objectively and subjectively the 2017 OLEDs are better for MY viewing enjoyment.
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post #2582 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Cutler View Post
You can buy a base model c6 like yours for cheaper than a loaded Accord......watch out baller LOL....
Mine is a 2013 1LT with 19k miles when i got it a few months ago. The A8 Trans in the new C7's are having big time probs, so scared to deal with that and still love the looks of the C6. After about 15 to 20k in mods i will have C7 money tied up in it.
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post #2583 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 03:57 PM
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Exclamation Recap

For those just tuning in...

CE Week TV Shootout 2017


(LG E7 OLED / Sony A1E OLED / Sony Z9D LCD / Sony BVM-X300 OLED reference monitor / Samsung Q9F LCD / Vizio P Series LCD / Westinghouse Amazon Fire TV LCD)

Three judging categories:

1) Studio Lighting/ Home Theater
2) HDR
3) Streaming Performance


WINNER (in all 3 categories):

LG E7 OLED

Spoiler!

Congrats LG!!!

LG Official Press Release [PDF]:

LG OLED 4K ULTRA HD TV WINS FOURTH CONSECUTIVE CE WEEK TV SHOOTOUT TITLE


Runner-up (a very close 2nd place which some felt should have won):

Sony A1E OLED

Spoiler!


NOTE: The following "places" are based on comments in this thread - these are not "official"


3rd Place (some feel it should have won the HDR category)

Sony Z9D LCD/LED (considered the "best LCD/LED of 2016")

Spoiler!


4th Place (most likely):

Vizio P Series LCD/LED (great price!):

Spoiler!


5th Place:

Samsung Q9F LCD (Go Samsung!)

Spoiler!


Last Place:

Westinghouse Amazon Fire TV LCD/LED

Spoiler!

(Why was this one there again? So that Samsung wouldn't come in dead last? )


Mark Henninger's (@imagic) Shootout article:

>LG E7 Wins 2017 Annual TV Shootout<

Article by one of the judges (Kevin Collins):

>2017 CE Week TV shoot out<

'Home Theater Geeks' Podcast with Scott, Joel Silver, Matt Murray, and Mark Henninger:

>2017 TV Shootout [Episode 363]<


P.S. What I took away from this thread is: some people seem to really enjoy "beating deceased horses", @Al Leong really, really likes the Sony A1E, @D-Nice can sometimes get cranky, @Ken Ross is very tired, and @WiFi-Spy is an alien .

Oh and... MY TV easily would have won this Shootout! (...but OLEDs are okay too)

Spoiler!


I think that about sums it up.

Looking forward to next year's Shootout!



Richard
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post #2584 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:03 PM
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Richard,

Perfect summation.

/thread lol

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post #2585 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Z9D lost against a 2016 Oled.
Which is why it is important for shootouts to be transparent and post all the settings used on the displays.

The clowns at Consumer Reports did not know how to set-up their Z9D correctly, as anyone can observe who actually reads their pathetic shootout article

"With a 10 percent white window??a standard measurement of a small white square at the middle of the screen??the Samsung soared to 1250, and the Sony remained constant at 770 nits. The LG rose to 660 nits."

They obviously screwed up the settings for the Sony, since every other reviewer gets around 1800 nits on a 10% window. They obviously measured with black frame insertion engaged, severely cutting light output and hampering the Sony. LG OLED does not offer black frame insertion, so I guess they could not screw that up.

I have pointed this out to you on multiple occasions but you disingenuously continuously link to this severely flawed Consumer Reports review which docked the Z9D because the amateurs at CR did not know how to recognize or engage HDR mode. They also docked the Z9D for not having good speakers, and other such minor trifles, and they take price into account.

This is a totally pathetic shootout review, and if you want to listen to those amateurs over at Consumer Reports, more power to you.

As for Rtings, more amateur-hour shills for LG OLED. They never once mentioned in any of their reviews of 2016 LG OLED the near-black issues, they did not dock LG OLED for any of the motion issues that many people complained about, and they give the 2016 LG OLEDs the same processing scores as Sony's with the X1 Extreme, which is laughable. They always give all 8.0's across the board in that category.

They gave 2016 LG OLED the highest motion scores possible, even though many people find LG OLED motion unsatisfactory, and they admit that LG's OLEDS show more judder and that Trumotion is more prone to artifacts than Sony's Motionflow. To make matters worse, if anyone looks at their settings, they do not know how to set their displays up properly either.

Archer at Forbes picked the Z9D as TV of the year, even though he had reviewed all the LG OLEDs in 2016 as well. I agree with him.

Sony XBR-65Z9D Review: TV Of The Year
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#361654db65c9

"Sony??s light management is so effective on the 65Z9D that it even manages to deliver outstanding shadow detailing in dark areas alongside the extreme dynamics. In fact, there??s more shadow detail on the 65Z9D than there is on LG??s OLED TVs when they??re running in HDR mode!"

Sony KD-65ZD9 Review: Best HDR TV
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd65zd9-201610164372.htm

"LG OLEDs still held the upper hand in outright black-level response, SDR ??pop?? and viewing angles by virtue of being able to switch every pixel ?? all 8.29 million of them ?? on and off independently of each other. But the ZD9?s blacks got close enough (especially with the help of bias lighting), and some quarters may prefer its near-black performance, motion smoothness and class-leading upscaling over OLED??s."

You can count me as one of those who prefers the near-black performance, motion smoothness, class-leading upscaling over OLED??s on the Z9D, along with easily better bright room performance and easily better HDR than 2016 OLED (and even 2017 if you ask me), with no worries of burn-in or uneven wear. I also frequently use my Z9D as a large PC monitor. I wouldn't want to do that with an OLED.

The Z9D can get much brighter than the 940D, and the 940D outscored the OLED in the bright room category in the 2016 VE shootout. So even if OLED does well in a bright room, Z9D does even better.

Z9D is a much more versatile display than 2016 LG OLED. It performs awesome in dark rooms all the way up to sun-lit rooms, in SDR, in HDR, as a PC monitor, no risk of burn-in, etc. and mine has no vignetting or vertical stripe banding on dim gray screens.
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post #2586 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:11 PM
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Would never trade my 60vt60 for a Z9D.

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post #2587 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
I had to line up my guns all the time on a Mits 46" RPTV back in 2001. Junk compared to what we have now.
I had a rig similar to the attached pic. It was a 60" Sony and a solid piece of furniture. I could put all my gear on the top of the TV without reservation. One cool feature was that I could bypass the internal amp, and connect the built-in speakers direct from my Dolby Pro Logic AVR and use them as the center channel. I ran it for about two years before I had a service done. The tech asked me if I was aware that the red gun was out of focus. Doh!! I thought the picture was pretty good, but after the service call, I wish that I had that done two years earlier. Of course 480i was so "blurry" that I never noticed that out-of-focus gun until it was pointed out to me.

The TV was $5,000 in 1995.
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post #2588 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
LG's Chess HDR demo still looks noticeably better on the Z9D compared to the C7. The golden gleam on the king's breastplate is dull and lackluster on the OLED, but shines with a nice bright golden gleam on the Z9D. When the soldier guy swings the sword and the fiery trail follows the sword, it is dull and lackluster in color on the OLED, and much more vivid and bright and colorful on the Z9D. The chess pieces are a positively delicious pure vivid white on the Z9D, but dull in comparison on the OLED.
For clarification, the native YouTube app is currently not working properly on the C7 for HDR10 videos - it broke after the .09 update (going off memory as I'm at work). This might explain why the Chess HDR demo on the C7 looks washed out. If not I find it hard to believe the 4 judges didn't pick up on the notable differences you're claiming.
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post #2589 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Would never trade my 60vt60 for a Z9D.
Be forewarned, you're going to be taken to the woodshed by OLED4UNME for that crack.

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post #2590 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
Be forewarned, you're going to be taken to the woodshed by OLED4UNME for that crack.
If there's one thing this thread is good for, it's public flogging. It think they're keeping all the dead horses in that same woodshed. Might be a little crowded.
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post #2591 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:28 PM
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I feel the reason they included Westinghouse is so that Samsung wouldn't finish dead last.
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post #2592 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Oledtech View Post
I feel the reason they included Westinghouse is so that Samsung wouldn't finish dead last.
Man, I remember the Samsung QLED thread during CES...boy were people quickly throwing around "OLED Killer" and all that other fud from a manufacturer staged demo and a few Instagram/press pictures.

Wonder where those people are now?

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post #2593 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:35 PM
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I feel the reason they included Westinghouse is so that Samsung wouldn't finish dead last.
Yes. @King Richard said the same thing without saying the same thing or did he actually say the same thing exactly as you said the same thing? This thread keeps saying the same thing so I'm getting confused.

"They're coming to take me away ha ha, they're coming to take me away he he , , , , , ,"

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post #2594 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Man, I remember the Samsung QLED thread during CES...boy were people quickly throwing around "OLED Killer" and all that other fud from a manufacturer staged demo and a few Instagram/press pictures.

Wonder where those people are now?

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Probably over in the LCD forums ignoring this nonsense. Or maybe watching their TVs, or playing video games on their TVs, or who knows. Anything but sticking around to see how this thread ends is my guess.

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post #2595 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Oledtech View Post
I feel the reason they included Westinghouse is so that Samsung wouldn't finish dead last.
Well, since no one is taking the Westinghouse seriously it probably did finished last in the home theater category at least.

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post #2596 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:50 PM
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So you wasted all this text because you have no objective way to prove your point? Your opinion is subjective.
You are the one who claimed you could "objectively" prove that a Kuro was better on SDR than a Z9D. I never claimed a Z9D was "objectively" better than a Kuro, did I? Objective was your word, not mine. I don't have any problem acknowledging that I find the Z9D subjectively better than 2016 LG OLED and Kuro. Others are free to disagree.

Bottom line: you will not accept full-field black measurements, because the LEDs will all shut off, and you do not feel that is representative. Fine. Well, I will not accept ANSI checkerboards either because they do not represent a wide variety of content either, and fail to take into account the perceptual benefits of a good local-dimming algorithm. So if you want something objective, design your own new test pattern or sample. All I know is that stock Kuros do not look as black as my Z9D, even in the dark, let alone if any light is in the room in front of the panel. If you possess the skills to voltage-lower a Kuro and make it surpass a Z9D with darker blacks that come close to OLED, that is great! I am happy that you possess the skills and knowledge to extend the life of everyone's Kuros. I still think they are beautiful displays. They are just too small and dim for me. 50-60 inches is not large enough, and my Kuro had a high-pitched whistle or whine to it. My Samsung plasmas buzzed. My Panasonics buzzed and/or had fan noise. My LED is completely silent.

Maybe a bright starfield looks better on the Kuro: whoopty doo. I am certain that a limited amount of scenes on a Kuro can look better than a Z9D, but I bet there are more dark scenes and also some bright scenes that look better on the Z9D, and the Z9D can look better all day long, not only after dark when the lights are down.

Quote:
Move on... I have 4 2017 OLEDs here (55C7, 65C7, 55A1E, 65A1E). I have 2 2016 OLEDs here (55B6... in storage, 65B6... in storage). I have 2 LED LCDs here (49" 900E, 65Z9D... testing only). I STILL have 5 Kuros here (1 500M...retired, 2 101FDs... 1 retired and 1 used as reference point, 1 141FD... used as reference point, 1 4280HD... retired). I don't think I have an issue upgrading my Kuros since that has already been done. I simply replaced them with OLEDs and not Z9Ds because objectively and subjectively the 2017 OLEDs are better for MY viewing enjoyment.
I have absolutely no problem with you saying that you find 2017 OLEDs to be subjectively better than Z9D. I may tend to agree with you after I finish evaluating my C7.

I have never claimed Z9D overall would outperform 2017 OLED. Show me where I mentioned this here on AVS. I don't think you will find it.

How do you objectively measure all the noise and macro-blocking and poor processing and juddery motion and clipped blown out highlights and color dilution in HDR I see on 2016 LG OLED?

Subjectively for me, in my viewing environment, which includes plenty of cable watching, YouTube and other streaming, and also sometimes a bright sunny room, I find Z9D better suited to my tastes compared to 2016 LG OLED. I purchased my Z9D before 2017 OLED had been released.

Z9D is around 11 months old. It's a lat 2016 model. I told everyone I did not expect Z9D to win the shootout, and that it would be leap-frogged by the improvements in the 2017 models.
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post #2597 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Probably over in the LCD forums ignoring this nonsense. Or maybe watching their TVs, or playing video games on their TVs, or who knows. Anything but sticking around to see how this thread ends is my guess.
They have to ignore it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

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post #2598 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
You are the one who claimed you could "objectively" prove that a Kuro was better on SDR than a Z9D. I never claimed a Z9D was "objectively" better than a Kuro, did I? Objective was your word, not mine. I don't have any problem acknowledging that I find the Z9D subjectively better than 2016 LG OLED and Kuro. Others are free to disagree.

Bottom line: you will not accept full-field black measurements, because the LEDs will all shut off, and you do not feel that is representative. Fine. Well, I will not accept ANSI checkerboards either because they do not represent a wide variety of content either, and fail to take into account the perceptual benefits of a good local-dimming algorithm. So if you want something objective, design your own new test pattern or sample. All I know is that stock Kuros do not look as black as my Z9D, even in the dark, let alone if any light is in the room in front of the panel. If you possess the skills to voltage-lower a Kuro and make it surpass a Z9D with darker blacks that come close to OLED, that is great! I am happy that you possess the skills and knowledge to extend the life of everyone's Kuros. I still think they are beautiful displays. They are just too small and dim for me. 50-60 inches is not large enough, and my Kuro had a high-pitched whistle or whine to it. My Samsung plasmas buzzed. My Panasonics buzzed and/or had fan noise. My LED is completely silent.

Maybe a bright starfield looks better on the Kuro: whoopty doo. I am certain that a limited amount of scenes on a Kuro can look better than a Z9D, but I bet there are more dark scenes and also some bright scenes that look better on the Z9D, and the Z9D can look better all day long, not only after dark when the lights are down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fn36l_z3WY



I have absolutely no problem with you saying that you find 2017 OLEDs to be subjectively better than Z9D. I may tend to agree with you after I finish evaluating my C7.

I have never claimed Z9D overall would outperform 2017 OLED. Show me where I mentioned this here on AVS. I don't think you will find it.

How do you objectively measure all the noise and macro-blocking and poor processing and juddery motion and clipped blown out highlights and color dilution in HDR I see on 2016 LG OLED?

Subjectively for me, in my viewing environment, which includes plenty of cable watching, YouTube and other streaming, and also sometimes a bright sunny room, I find Z9D better suited to my tastes compared to 2016 LG OLED. I purchased my Z9D before 2017 OLED had been released.

Z9D is around 11 months old. It's a lat 2016 model. I told everyone I did not expect Z9D to win the shootout, and that it would be leap-frogged by the improvements in the 2017 models.
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post #2599 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 04:57 PM
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I had a rig similar to the attached pic. It was a 60" Sony and a solid piece of furniture. I could put all my gear on the top of the TV without reservation. One cool feature was that I could bypass the internal amp, and connect the built-in speakers direct from my Dolby Pro Logic AVR and use them as the center channel. I ran it for about two years before I had a service done. The tech asked me if I was aware that the red gun was out of focus. Doh!! I thought the picture was pretty good, but after the service call, I wish that I had that done two years earlier. Of course 480i was so "blurry" that I never noticed that out-of-focus gun until it was pointed out to me.

The TV was $5,000 in 1995.
I think my Mits 46" was around 3.5k at Sound advice in 2001. My 2005 Mits 52628 was much better but cost 5k.

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post #2600 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:01 PM
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I feel the reason they included Westinghouse is so that Samsung wouldn't finish dead last.
Quote:
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They have to ignore it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

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There's no narrative to fit, except perhaps that CES claims should not be taken at face value. I seem to remember people saying OLEDs would do 1000 nits at CES, too. And that LeEco was gonna buy Vizio for 2 billion bucks. And OLED keeps being described as "perfect" despite the fact that improvements are made each year, lol.

The Q9D is a very different TV aimed at a different market than the E7. I'd say this is a good thing, the market for ultra-premium TVs is very small and it's a plus to have options. As I said about 1000 comments ago, the Q9F is a luxury sports coupe loaded with options, while the shootout is all about evaluating track-ready street-legal sports cars.

That Samsung showed a prototype QLED at CES with an LCD panel that actually did seem to solve the off-axis issue and maintain deep blacks (I saw that panel next to the panel that shipped, much better in those regards) is a decision that was not explained and surely did lead to much hand-wringing and consternation.

At the end of the day the Q9F proved more evolutionary than revolutionary. And therefore, the CES hype did turn into criticism. I never got an answer why the CES panel did not make it into production, c'est la vie.

Having said that, they way the Q9F is being discussed in this thread is a joke. But hey, it's the Internet and that means anything goes, including random conspiracy theories, especially in the media climate of 2017.

Well here's a news flash. The E7 won. But, all TV shootouts are "fake news" and that's the end of the story. None are science, all are PR events. The conclusion may be valid, the calibrations legit, the judges experienced pros, but like a TV talent show, its primary purpose is entertainment. Judging by this thread's popularity, I'd say the shootout succeeded.

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post #2601 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:05 PM
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Yes. @King Richard said the same thing without saying the same thing or did he actually say the same thing exactly as you said the same thing? This thread keeps saying the same thing so I'm getting confused.

"They're coming to take me away ha ha, they're coming to take me away he he , , , , , ,"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fn36l_z3WY
^^^this had me laughing!!!
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post #2602 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:09 PM
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It was refreshing reading a spirited defense of the Sammy just now. Thanks imagic.

Doesn't change my stance on the laughable "cult" that quickly formed around it during CES. As I said, a fall from expectations that high expressed by forum goers must have hurt

Speaking of PR, I wonder what Sammy could accomplish if they focused more on revolutionary changes instead of spinning their marketing wheels so hard. And accomplish means picture quality wise, not sales wise. We all know they can sell. Would be nice if they could sell a better product
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post #2603 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:12 PM
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Mine is a 2013 1LT with 19k miles when i got it a few months ago. The A8 Trans in the new C7's are having big time probs, so scared to deal with that and still love the looks of the C6. After about 15 to 20k in mods i will have C7 money tied up in it.
1LT is a base model and for 15-20k in mods it better have forced induction in some fashion.....is yours auto or MANual?
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post #2604 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:17 PM
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Numbers have very little to do with how the human visual system perceives contrast. You can throw up an ANSI checkerboard on a Kuro side by side with the Z9D, and then cover up the bright squares with black felt if you like, and then measure it with one of your very expensive fancy shmancy meters, and it doesn't necessarily amount to a hill of beans if the Kuro measures a noticeably lower black level. Our eyes do not work like mechanical meters.

When you have an area of black right near a bright area of white, the human visual system can only perceive a very limited amount of contrast. The only thing that matters is the contrast which your eyes are able to perceive. Even if the Kuro measures better on this lone measurement test, all that matters is what each looks like side by side. If the limited perception of contrast means the black squares appear as black on the Z9D as on the Kuro, even though the Kuro measures significantly lower, who cares?

An .mp3 or aac encoding algorithm can toss out 80-90% of the original data in the audio signal and still remain perceptibly transparent in most cases. The encoder analyzes the audio signal and if there is a soft sound very near in frequency to a louder sound, it can toss it out and we will not notice.

Well our visual system is similar in that if there is something black right next to something bright, we cannot detect a large discrepancy in contrast. Local-dimming algorithms (and video encoders for that matter) exploit these types of weaknesses of the human visual system, just like lossy audio encoders exploit the weakness of the human auditory system.

So who cares how blacks measure? Does a 256 kb/s mp3 or mp4 sound six times worse than the original track on the CD, because if you measure it, it will only contain about 1/6 the bits of the original waveform.

Even if you use an ANSI checkerboard that doesn't match up with the zones very well, and you get a little bit of glow or haloing as a result, and the Kuro did look visibly better, on an ANSI checkerboard, so what?

Who stares at ANSI checkerboards all day long? How often do you see that in content? It is a vastly imperfect way to measure FALD displays. Just as you will not accept full field black measurements, where all the LED's shut off, because you do not feel that measurement most accurately reflects reality in content, so I consider ANSI checkerboards to be poor representations of what will actually be observed with content as well.

There is no one perfect and "objective" black level measurement pattern. One simply has to watch a wide variety of a lot of content side by side to judge properly.

I challenge everyone who has access to a Kuro to watch the opening below deck scenes near the beginning of the film Master and Commander. Watch your black letterbox bars disappear in this scene, melding into a gray fog over the whole screen.

This scene looks much more contrasty with more depth on the Z9D, and the bars are black, not a gray like one will see on their Kuro. You could do this with any number of low-APL scenes on a Kuro, like some of those very dim scenes in Harry Potter, for example. Kuros lose their black bars and have a gray fog over the screen. A Z9D will look closer to OLED on these scenes than a Kuro.

Even back in 2009 when I set my Samsung B8500 FALD side by side with my 500M, there were (a minority of) scenes where the LED looked visibly and noticeably blacker than the Kuro beside it. Well Kuros have not improved since 2008-2009, but FALD LED technology, LCD panels, and local-dimming algorithms have improved significantly over the past 8 years, so what used to be a small minority of scenes that looked noticeably darker on LED compared to Kuro has swollen to a much larger percentage. Of course in higher-APL content, in many cases a Z9D and Kuro will look very similar and it could be considered a tie.

There is no such thing as a true fade to black on a Kuro. There is only a fade to dark gray. All anyone has to do is set an LED beside one to see the stark difference. Scenes with credits, where most of the screen is black except for some lettering in the middle? Look much blacker on a good FALD, even if there is a slight glow or halo around some of the lettering in the center of the screen.

No haloing on the Kuro, but no black across the entire screen either. Dark gray.

As long as there is enough bright content in between the bars on a Kuro, the bars are perceived as black, even though Kuros do not go totally black like an OLED. However, if there is not enough bright highlights on screen to bring the limitations of the human visual system into play, tricking your eyes into perceiving black, a Kuro will look only dark gray, and not pure black.

So the Kuros do not have black bars or even black across the whole screen on very low APL scenes. Kuros are gray, and that is a fact. The Z9D never looks gray like a Kuro does in SDR.



Yes, full screen or majority of the screen whites are not nearly as good on a Kuro or any plasma as on the Z9D, or even OLEDs. It is a real weakness of all plasmas, including Kuros, that some would like to gloss over.



I most certainly will. As Joel Silver mentioned in the podcast, most people view their TV with light on in the room, a large amount of the time. You want to skew the playing field to put the Kuro in the best possible advantageous position. You want to limit comparisons to only a dark room, even though the Z9D beats a Kuro in many respects in a light-controlled room as well.

The Z9D is a much more versatile display than any Kuro. It does not have to deal with image retention or uneven phosphor wear, it looks vastly better than a Kuro in a room with light, and it has much better/cleaner processing, so less than pristine sources like cable/satellite/streaming will look better on the Z9D than the Kuro as well.

It's overall a superior imaging display in most every environment.



The Kuro WAS reference for several years after their release. I have no problem accepting or admitting that. Your precious Kuros (which you defend as if they were your children or a member of the family or something) have been surpassed by both OLED and Z9D, and you are the one who needs to let it go and lose the emotional attachment love affair. The Kuros are a video display, not the love of your life or your blood and kin. It's ok, to move on now. Most everyone else has.
The biggest thing to prove how much of a unicorn the kuro's are is ask yourself this, in 10 years will any tv discussion of any kind include a Z9D to make a point of any kind?

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post #2605 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:19 PM
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Where do you get this stuff? Are you just copying and pasting old comments or just had a few...
Since D-Nice and others are such a fan of Pioneer Kuros, I encourage him and everyone else to check out the Moving Picture Resolution test on the Kuro demonstration Blu ray discs. They have a clip where a camera is mounted down low, and it is filming the license plates on cars as they come into view and driving toward the camera and passing by. It also has manuscripts and vertical and horizontal scrolling of text.

Try these patterns with LG Trumotion turned off, and see how blurry and double-vision the license plates are. Then watch how blurry the text is as the camera pans horizontally across the text on manuscripts.

Engage Trumotion and dial up the deblur. Notice how the license plates are much clearer and can be read easily, and the text is much clearer as the camera pans across the book or a manuscript or a spinning globe.

I have many other test clips and patterns from Sony, Samsung, etc. and also clips I have snipped from BD rips over the years to test for certain scenes of motion in actual content. I can run through a battery of tests rather quickly this way, since I do not have to plop in many different discs and take a long time fast forwarding to a particular scene.
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post #2606 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:25 PM
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1LT is a base model and for 15-20k in mods it better have forced induction in some fashion.....is yours auto or MANual?
A6 auto. Too much traffic to row thru the gears. I know 1LT is a base model.I like having less stuff to break. The last C6's were the best and the A6 was at it's best in the 2013 and 2014 C7.

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post #2607 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:26 PM
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I remember when Kuro owners were dumping their sets for that magical Sharp Elite LCD. Glad I didn't jump on that wagon.

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post #2608 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:27 PM
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2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017

I have a question for @D-Nice @jrref or anybody else with knowledge of the 2017 Sony sets. If I want to max out BFI to get the highest motion resolution out of my set, which is setting is better to adjust to offset the decrease in brightness without affecting the picture accuracy of Cinema Pro mode? Is increasing brightness, contrast, gamma, or some combination of these 3?
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post #2609 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:37 PM
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As I said about 1000 comments ago, the Q9F is a luxury sports coupe loaded with options, while the shootout is all about evaluating track-ready street-legal sports cars.
It was actually post #1230...Lets load it up again
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- LG's 2017 OLED is an electric race car. Gotta tune it to perfection; it's not for amateurs. Doing so yields a professional result.

- Sony's A1E is an exotic electric sports car that's almost as fast as a racecar, but is street legal and can be driven in traffic because it has an adjustable suspension. But set in in "track" mode and it's race-ready.

- Sony's Z9D is last year's concept car that still uses a gas engine and does not corner as well as the A1E, but is faster going in a straight line than that electric exotic. There's a truck-sized version that's insane.

- Samsung's Q9F is a self-driving luxury sports sedan than does not appeal to racecar drivers. It's not something you'd bring to the track, and it actually costs more than the exotic sports car, but some folks like it because it's comfortable and stylish??and available as a 7-seater??while still offering performance that satisfies people who are not racecar drivers.

- Vizio's P-series is basically a Corvette. It's an American company selling sports cars for less than premium foreign competitors. And while it does not beat the top dogs from the foreign companies, when people see the price/performance ratio, it challenges their preconceptions of what the brand offers.

- And the Westinghouse? Well, it's that economy car with the "racing-style" steering wheel and seats that runs on a 4-cylinder engine. Fit and finish suffer, as far as sports car handling goes it's not that great. But it costs a fraction of what the others do, seats five comfortably, and at least it has Amazon Alexa built in.
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post #2610 of 3546 Old 07-24-2017, 05:41 PM
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It was refreshing reading a spirited defense of the Sammy just now. Thanks imagic.

Doesn't change my stance on the laughable "cult" that quickly formed around it during CES. As I said, a fall from expectations that high expressed by forum goers must have hurt

Speaking of PR, I wonder what Sammy could accomplish if they focused more on revolutionary changes instead of spinning their marketing wheels so hard. And accomplish means picture quality wise, not sales wise. We all know they can sell. Would be nice if they could sell a better product
The dismissals proclaiming OLED killer were the most irritating/amusing. I just stay out of that subforum presently. Let their bubble pop (as they wait for their TV to go supernova to compete with the sun).
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