Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 101 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3001 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
This frame demonstrate the difference in image image handing of the stars between the 2.. I'd prefer to keep the difference in brightness performance to retain these kinds of dark levels definition performances.
hard to say since that's a pretty light background still, it almost looks like gamma 2.4 on a1 vs 2.2 on z9, but in any case as the space behind the stars gets darker the individual stars themselves on the a1 won't lose their brightness like they do on z9. Definitely a huge advantage from having over 8 million "dimming zones"
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post #3002 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
thus why they haven't released another consumer OLED yet.
I think Samsung looks like the student when he cheats in the exam and in the end becomes the first .
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post #3003 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 03:50 PM
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Where did he say this?

I don't think XDR was on in the A1.. more of a picture mode to picture mode comparison.
They always omit these details lol!
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post #3004 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I think the careless mistake everyone makes when referring to "HDR performance" focusing on brightness only.. Brightness is not the full attribute that defines what the Rec. 2020 standard is for UHD HDR content screen performance.

People trying to make informed decisions read about this "Better HDR performance" blanket statement when it should be "Higher brightness capability" being said.. because people buying products thinking they're getting "Better HDR performance" get duped when color reproductions are not where the A1 is. You will get the heightened brightness capability, but the excellence in everything else is missing.
Absolutely true, but besides white colors can get very right as well.

So if we go back to the rtings review, the "color volume" charts speak to the point you are making. On an absolute basis (not normalized), the a1 ranks well but not best in class due to the lower brightness as well as some washout as it approaches max brightness (the 3D plot pinching at the top).

BUT if we look at color volume normalized to the capabilities of the display (i.e. Assume the tone mapping works well, and by all accounts it does work very well) we see the A1 climb near the top of the class in normalized Bt2020 coverage, where the superior black levels give the a1 a big advantage in the darker part of the color space.

End game goal is obviously to have a 10,000nit display that completely fills the volume but we must unfortunately work with what is on the market today

Here's the data table if you want to take a look - http://uk.rtings.com/tv/tests/pictur...3-and-rec-2020

Looking at the 3d plots for each tv linked in the table is also helpful in understanding the numbers.

Last point, I don't think any reasonable person would say the a1 isn't excellent at hdr. The 600nits "real content" output is absolutely enough for a nice hdr effect, and with good tone mapping it looks like the a1 should give a great picture across all ranges of HDR content.
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post #3005 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:07 PM
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How the freak do you get this TV to accept at 18 GBps full input for 4K @ 60 Hz 4:4:4? I've tried port 2 and 3.

I've set Advanced settings>Video options>HDMI video range to "Full" yet my Titan-Xp is still showing me stuck at 4:2:0.

Is there some HDMI Deep color input option I am missing somewhere?

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post #3006 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post
BUT if we look at color volume normalized to the capabilities of the display (i.e. Assume the tone mapping works well, and by all accounts it does work very well) we see the A1 climb near the top of the class in normalized Bt2020 coverage, where the superior black levels give the a1 a big advantage in the darker part of the color space.
Color Volume Normalized (which is also in the current beta version of CalMAN) really doesn't have much of a practical application with content. It's not really judging tone mapping, instead it is just creating a theoretical ideal display with peak output of the measured nits for white, and then seeing how close it comes to this.

Unfortunately, no content exists that would use this normalized volume. The effectiveness of tone mapping isn't playing a role in here, instead you're just seeing if you can measure the primary and secondary colors out to their ideal luminance measurements as well, or if they're falling short. Testing the Sony X900E with relative nits today (my A1E arrives Tuesday, and will get tested then or Wednesday), it scores 80.46% for relative nits DCI, but only 67.95% for 1000 nits DCI and 15.39% for 4000 nits DCI. Sony usually does a good job with tone mapping, but relative doesn't factor that in.

With normalized numbers, TVs with lower nits levels are going to perform far better (The Vizio P65 scores 76.85% here vs. 43.7% with 1000 nits target). The Vizio scores almost the same as the Sony with relative nits, the Sony is over 50% higher when you have a 1000 nits target like UHD streaming and Blu-ray content would use. I'm still measuring it on every display this year, but only for reference since I don't think it has a great real-world application right now.

BTW, if you're curious about how these measure on the Dolby standard, the Vizio is 257 Million distinguishable colors and the Sony X900E is 356 MDC. I'll have A1E data Tuesday or Wednesday.
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post #3007 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:30 PM
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My A1 has been looking sweet especially with the Sony Green Sleeves demo with all the inky blacks and near black detail.

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post #3008 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post
BTW, if you're curious about how these measure on the Dolby standard, the Vizio is 257 Million distinguishable colors and the Sony X900E is 356 MDC. I'll have A1E data Tuesday or Wednesday.
thank you for the correction, so based on your comments it seems that the normalized measurement has almost no real world merit then. I wonder why it's even being bothered to be reported?

Looking forward to your testing of the A1.
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post #3009 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:34 PM
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I agree with u 100% . Now we can say Sony A1E is one of the best monitors absolutely and i consider it without a doubt is the closest for the perfect monitor .
Nothing is perfect but she is real nice
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post #3010 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post
thank you for the correction, so based on your comments it seems that the normalized measurement has almost no real world merit then. I wonder why it's even being bothered to be reported?

Looking forward to your testing of the A1.
Because then a display with a white subpixel will score worse on relative measures, since it can do a brighter white than some secondary and primary colors, than a display with a full RGB and no W subpixel, even if it isn't real world applicable.
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post #3011 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:39 PM
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How the freak do you get this TV to accept at 18 GBps full input for 4K @ 60 Hz 4:4:4? I've tried port 2 and 3.

I've set Advanced settings>Video options>HDMI video range to "Full" yet my Titan-Xp is still showing me stuck at 4:2:0.

Is there some HDMI Deep color input option I am missing somewhere?
Did you set "Enhanced" ? Settings>External inputs>HDMI signal format>Enhanced format
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post #3012 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:41 PM
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Because then a display with a white subpixel will score worse on relative measures, since it can do a brighter white than some secondary and primary colors, than a display with a full RGB and no W subpixel, even if it isn't real world applicable.
Ok I read your article on color space. Instead of normalized it would probably be more instructive to report the 1000nit target volume coverage since most hdr content today is authored to that target.
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post #3013 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:45 PM
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Angry

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Did you set "Enhanced" ? Settings>External inputs>HDMI signal format>Enhanced format
Ya I found it thanks. I love how every TV manufacturer has to call it something different.

I also found that the TV is only single strobing at Clearness setting "high" (60 Hz). Super apparent flicker. Will probably box the TV up tonight.
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post #3014 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 04:47 PM
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Ok I read your article on color space. Instead of normalized it would probably be more instructive to report the 1000nit target volume coverage since most hdr content today is authored to that target.
I'm measuring MDC at 1000, 4000, and 10000 nits (which really shouldn't change on most displays this year), along with L*a*b* for DCI and Rec.2020 at 1000, 4000, and 10000. At least with L*a*b* I can do it in fewer passes, but it's still a lot of measurements to make. I'm also doing relative because it's pretty quick, but just for reference. UHD discs are pretty well split between 1000 and 4000 right now since studios seem to have picked one, though I occasionally see differences come through.
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post #3015 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 05:05 PM
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Al, I still have Motion Custom, just as you have it. On most films I've left CineMotion to OFF. La la Land requires it on, as there are lots of planning shots. And with it on it vanquished all anomalies, without introducing SOE.


I always use cinemotion for 24p content. It's amazing


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Maybe you should investigate the weights they give to different components of a score . The Motion score is almost entirely made up of the pixel response time, the Motion interpolation score is only a 'does it have it or not' and the long awaited BFI option on OLED's makes up about 4% of the Motion score when it could have a big impact (again this is a does it have it or not score, yes = 10, no = 0 ). HDTV Test gave the Z9D and X930E a 'best scaling ever on a consumer model' rating and that is the same image processor the A1 has. Likewise the Sony interpolation has been rated the best almost universally for as long as I can remember and this is not reflected in the score at all.

There are a lot of score components you can heavily criticize on Rtings ...


I'll say this again. You can also create your own custom rating on rtings


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What ever you guys say. Having seen the A1E at Magnolia today, sitting right next to LGs on either side, I'd agree with Rting and their assessment. Two great OLED displays that are very tough to distinguish between.
Hi Ken. I look forward to seeing the LG and Sony at the next Shootout in a couple of months.
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the length of the actuator bar

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I don't remember this being posted and can't find it on Sony's site. What is the length of the actuator bar in the 55in model? I may set one in a bookcase unit. The screen can be in front of the unit and the stand would still work. However if the actuator bar would also need to be in front, it would push the TV screen out too far and I'd have to do some carpentry or buy a stand (which frankly I might do anyway). Any help, please?
While waiting for answer you may use the sketches (and a ruler)
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post #3019 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 05:37 PM
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Thanks AI leong for all your help. Like you said if you want to have the best you got to get the Sony 65A1E. I went to Best Buy and compared the Sony 65A1E with the lg 65C7P and in 5 minutes I decited that the Sony is more better and sharp picture without any blemishes. It is like a perfect picture. I have a Samsung 51D800 but this Sony is like the same but without the pixelation of the plasma.
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post #3020 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 05:42 PM
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I bought the Sony 65A1E from PC Richardson they going to deliver Sunday. Thanks every owner in this forum.
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post #3021 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post
Opps, it's oops ! BTW, BB/Magnolia has it on display at both Springfield AND Potomac Mills. Are you trying very hard to find it? I do not know about BB/Magnolia at Manassas yet, but the aforementioned definitely have it. Get going.
Sorry for the delay - just catching up. Wolvernole, please understand, I am the worlds worst speller (thanks for the correction). As my wife says, I are an engineer. English is NOT my strong suit. Can you believe she plays scrabble on the internet but still puts up with me?

It's interesting, I went to Gainsville,VA BB Magnolia on one day and asked about the A1E and they were uncertain. Two days later I was able to view the A1E in full at the same BB. It looks quite interesting. (Although, I have to say I am not excited about their paring it with a sound system in the back). I am not sure how the sound system will work when the TV is hanging on a wall. I think I will proceed to have a separate system for sound. In fact, I have to BB twice now. I need to put some more pieces together and would like to see the price on the TV come down a little. I am going to try hard and wait for below 4-5k or so. I am now trying to decide on an AVR, 4k player, and sub to go with it as this will be a complete new setup in another room.

For an AVR I am am looking at Marantz SR 5011/6011 or Anthem MRX 720.
For 4K player I am looking at Oppo 203 or Sony 800.
Sub - no idea yet.
Also have PC with large video/photo/music file storage.
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post #3022 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 06:27 PM
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Got my 65" A1E today I'm trying to connect it to my XBox One S, but get the attached even after setting the external input to enhanced. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.
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post #3023 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Congrats.. make no mistakes about it.. there's plenty of very good high-end TVs on the market... the A1E excels with diverse content. A bit earlier I watched the first 10 minutes of Scarface from my VUDU account on the W7, and in HDR Effect mode it looks great.. I then went to my A1 and looked at it again.. and ended up watching the whole film.. there's just a plasma-like performance to the A1 that shows with this content..

Tonight, I'm cracking open the following 4K discs to view for the first time:

1) La La Land
2) Expendables 1
3) Expendables 2

I love my W7.. its great for my workhorse DirecTV Now playback from the Apple TV.. but for my disc and streaming movie viewing, I'll try to watch on the W7 and I'll just get curious about how the A1 would display it and then all roads in my viewing rotation end up leading back to my A1..

I had to force myself to watch the 675es the other day.. I got in 2 episodes of a show I was watching on Netflix before I ended up back at the A1 to watch..

I really love this TV.. the only other product I feel this much loyalty and love for is my car.. and if I had to choose between the 2, the car can go.
Yes, but I saw a lot pixelation in the lg 65c7p like my plasma. The Sony is free of that and the motion is beautiful like perfect. I don't know but I saw the Sony brighter than the lg.

Whitch 4K blu Ray player is the best for you right know.
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post #3024 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BLeodler View Post
Got my 65" A1E today I'm trying to connect it to my XBox One S, but get the attached even after setting the external input to enhanced. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.
I got mine to pass all of those tests (but I still have an issue...which I will post here in a few) by doing the following in the Xbox menu:

Settings>Display>Video Output>Advanced>Allow YCC 4:2:2
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post #3025 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 06:45 PM
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It should be he same 47.4ms as 1080p60 and 1080p60 4:4:4. Some tv introduce lag in 444 mode but it looks like the A1 does not. 120hz vs 60hz won't make a difference as the input lag is already almost 3 frames in 60hz mode. Maybe it might be 5 frames in 120hz instead of 6.


I meant with motion at 120hz. The z9 (75") looks fantastic in motion at 120hz and playing with mouse and board brings back memories

Wondering if people were able to use 120hz also (assuming yes) and with 0 persistence must look great


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I posted this earlier in the thread.
Thanks, somehow I missed it. The info says up to 55", so I assume that's what you have. My needs are for a 65" and there are similar stand legs on Amazon that accommodate a 65". Also, considering how awkward these units are wall mounted, I'm wondering if there is any issue with your installation. A photo front and back would GREATLY be appreciated. I did find this similar product that indicates Heavy Duty, adjustable height and accommodates up to 70" panel (see link). If you have a photo front and back, it would provide me useful visual clues how this solution works. THANKS!

https://www.amazon.com/Atlantic-Univ...01N1HXPVI?th=1
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Have you been able to do a side by side Comparison between the W7 and the A1E? I would love to see how the two flagships display the same content.
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post #3028 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickff View Post
I got mine to pass all of those tests (but I still have an issue...which I will post here in a few) by doing the following in the Xbox menu:

Settings>Display>Video Output>Advanced>Allow YCC 4:2:2
Thank you, this solved it.
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post #3029 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Yay! I didn't learn much that I didn't already knew from that review but a couple of interesting facts:

- They noted the tilt as being a CON. Finally a review mention this.
- Clearness to Low seems to not be doing ANY BFI so it's equal to "off" according to them
- Clearness to High is using a frequency of 60Hz for the BFI compared to the 120Hz most other TVs are using and that probably explains why it is so efficient at removing blur with 60 fps video games since the BFI matches the framerate perfectly. That picture of the [email protected] looks very good and I can finally see such a picture example!
- 24p over 60p/i has a bug that makes content judder sometimes
- A1E is lower brightness than C7
- ABL on the A1E seems worst than on the C7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I have a feeling Samsung or Sony CLEDIS will show something in 2018 with LEDs performing closer to OLED diodes with like 3 million zones.. Once this happens its over for OLED.

It will be OLED level without the possibility of burn in.. I have a hunch Samsung has this already with quantum dot in their R&D, thus why they haven't released another consumer OLED yet.
I thought CLEDIS was individual RGB leds for each pixels, aka 8 millions zones just like OLED? But yeah, it will kill everything else on the market for it's non organic, non image retention, emissive display tech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
Ya I found it thanks. I love how every TV manufacturer has to call it something different.

I also found that the TV is only single strobing at Clearness setting "high" (60 Hz). Super apparent flicker. Will probably box the TV up tonight.
Nooooo! So you are seeing the flickering at Clearness HIGH using 60 fps games as the source? Yes it flickers at 60Hz on HIGH and does not flicker at all on LOW according to rtings.

What about the removal of motion blur? Is it pretty much removed completely on clearness at HIGH? It should be great since it flickers at same rate as the fps but the disadvantage of 60hz BFI is some people will see the flickering and seems like you are one of these people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
OPPO 203 all the way.. The THX certified Panasonic is top notch also. The 203 however has a commitment to upgrade to Dolby Vision disc playback and after owning the 105d and 103d units, I trust OPPO standard of product quality.

On my personal A1 where I do my critical viewing, I tried out the Sony X800 and I'm about 8 feet away and could see the difference in fidelity between the X800 and 203.

I have a X800 connected to my bedroom A1.. and for the viewing distance there (15 feet back), it looks great.

I'm using an AudioQuest Chocolate HDMI cable and the video fidelity is flawless with the 203.
I still have my Oppo-103 here but I never liked the PQ that came out of it from day 1. I bought it for it's "stellar" deinterlacing back then because I planned to use it to watch my interlaced content and the rest too. I found the deinterlacing to be worst than my PS3 with black horizontal bars (missed deinterlacing frames) showing on scene changes on 480i DVDs which disappointed me greatly. As for the non interlaced content, there were graphical bugs during blu-ray playback sometimes (flickering parts of the image in a part of the movie Oblivion was my experience) and the image was a tiny bit more blurry (or less sharp) than on my Dune player or PS3 (the blurry part was said by other owners too).

Did the 103d (darbee) corrected these things and does the 203 corrected them too?

I am very reluctant in going back to Oppo with my personal experience and don't understand the hype they get from my experience. In fact I'm still puzzled to this day about how my experience is so different than what I read about it online.

I have the Panasonic UB900 and thought it looked great on my E6's last year so I kept it and will be able to use it when I get the new 4k tv, possibly the A1E.

Last edited by Creator44; 05-05-2017 at 08:23 PM.
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post #3030 of 8141 Old 05-05-2017, 08:08 PM
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My quick summary after a night of testing for computer/gaming use:

1. A1E is physically gorgeous. I really love minimalist designs.
2. OLED panel, image is amazing. Not much else to say here.
3. TV has froze on me. Not totally sold on Android for TV's. IMO LG's OS is better.
4. A1E sound is good enough for listening to sports/talking. My normal HiFi speakers were obviously much better for music/movies.
5. 4K 4:4:4 60 Hz input lag (30ms) is noticeable but not super annoying. [Game mode]
6. Clarity "high" setting in which the panel is strobed 8ms on and 8ms off at 60 Hz is unusable. Very noticeable flicker. Resultant MPRT of 8ms was of course much clearer than the normal sample-and-hold 16ms MPRT of 60 Hz, but flicker precludes its use.
7. Using motion smoothing outside of game/graphics mode (only place you can enable) as expected is unusable. Frame interpolation (120 Hz) once again cuts the MPRT down to 8ms from 16ms, but large input lag and motion artifacts precludes its use.
8. TV is silly heavy. I think they went a bit overboard on this.
9. Disappointing that the max brightness is less than the LG's. ABL is also noticeable.
10. The TV will display an image above 60 Hz, but will frame skip rendering that moot.

11. Easter egg. Setting a custom 1080p resolution at 4:4:4 12-bit color at 120 Hz in game mode drops the input lag down to a tested average 15-20ms! This is a great TV for 1080p gamers. You get the 8ms MPRT motion clarity of 120 Hz sample-and-hold and also get that 120 Hz quick/smoothness with barely perceptible input lag. Just don't turn Clarity to "high", it still only strobes at 60 Hz rendering the other 60 Hz in darkness!
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