Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 104 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3091 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
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Just making sure you are referring to X-tended Dynamic Range and Adv. Contrast Enhancer? What do you have yours set at? I've noticed if you set these too high they blow out the top end of color contrast.
In Standard HDR I keep them both on HIGH.

This pushes the TV to its full image processing power, and with 4K BD, in Standard HDR mode.. there's nothing I've ever seen do what it does.

Not until the TV goes into Vivid picture mode do I see any unpleasant performance. Standard HDR and Cinema Pro for SDR for me looks like the perfect images.
Any tricks you know to make the picture brighter and more popping? What about turning off the ABL? I read in the Rtings review that the A1 has a more aggressive ABL than the C7 and thus dims images more frequently.
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post #3092 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 11:17 AM
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I thought each 77 is carefully inspected.
I do not believe any TV is inspected piece by piece, maybe spot checked.......
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post #3093 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
In Standard HDR I keep them both on HIGH.

This pushes the TV to its full image processing power, and with 4K BD, in Standard HDR mode.. there's nothing I've ever seen do what it does.

Not until the TV goes into Vivid picture mode do I see any unpleasant performance. Standard HDR and Cinema Pro for SDR for me looks like the perfect images.

The dynamics of HDR should go from quiet and slightly lit dark scenes.. to big bold explosive room lighting brightness... I'm getting that performance on my A1 in Standard HDR, Expert 1 color, with both of these things on HIGH.

All I can say is the BvS duel with the green Kryptonite staff, and then after the Doomsday scene. If this scene is not blowing you away with its image performance, meaning if its not the best image performance you've seen on a TV ever..1) Let me know what TV did a better job so I can look into getting it, or 2) you may be holding your A1E performance back listening too much to the "rules"..
What about "Black Adjust", you like that at all? No, so far I am loving the A1E but the lower input lag of the C7 may pull me that direction. I use my OLED for 70% PC gaming, 15% UHD Blu-Ray and 15% Amazon Prime.

Oh and what movie are you referring too?

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Any tricks you know to make the picture brighter and more popping? What about turning off the ABL? I read in the Rtings review that the A1 has a more aggressive ABL than the C7 and thus dims images more frequently.
Has anyone seen a service menu with the Sony? I think I've read people turning off ABL on the LG's in the service menu.

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post #3094 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 11:29 AM
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Any tricks you know to make the picture brighter and more popping? What about turning off the ABL? I read in the Rtings review that the A1 has a more aggressive ABL than the C7 and thus dims images more frequently.
After my eyes took that painful hit last night from that searing flash at the end of the planetarium scene in La La Land.. I have no comment on what is supposed to be a brightness lacking on the A1.
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In Standard HDR I keep them both on HIGH.

This pushes the TV to its full image processing power, and with 4K BD, in Standard HDR mode.. there's nothing I've ever seen do what it does.

Not until the TV goes into Vivid picture mode do I see any unpleasant performance. Standard HDR and Cinema Pro for SDR for me looks like the perfect images.

The dynamics of HDR should go from quiet and slightly lit dark scenes.. to big bold explosive room lighting brightness... I'm getting that performance on my A1 in Standard HDR, Expert 1 color, with both of these things on HIGH.

All I can say is the BvS duel with the green Kryptonite staff, and then after the Doomsday scene. If this scene is not blowing you away with its image performance, meaning if its not the best image performance you've seen on a TV ever..1) Let me know what TV did a better job so I can look into getting it, or 2) you may be holding your A1E performance back listening too much to the "rules"..
What about "Black Adjust", you like that at all? No, so far I am loving the A1E but the lower input lag of the C7 may pull me that direction. I use my OLED for 70% PC gaming, 15% UHD Blu-Ray and 15% Amazon Prime.

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Any tricks you know to make the picture brighter and more popping? What about turning off the ABL? I read in the Rtings review that the A1 has a more aggressive ABL than the C7 and thus dims images more frequently.
Has anyone seen a service menu with the Sony? I think I've read people turning off ABL on the LG's in the service menu.
B6 / C7 / A1 one will be chosen. I believe the LG's have an oled light feature? I can't recall if my A1 had that when I had it. Not sure if that controls the brightness
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post #3095 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 11:40 AM
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With real-world content with XDR and ACE on, the W7 is better than all other TVs on the market, except the A1, which blows it away on HDR and SDR playback.
Spoiler!
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post #3096 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 12:10 PM
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Wow playing dark games on this thing is beast mode. D00M, Alien Isolation...
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post #3097 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 12:37 PM
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B6 / C7 / A1 one will be chosen. I believe the LG's have an oled light feature? I can't recall if my A1 had that when I had it. Not sure if that controls the brightness
Brightness on Sony TVs = OLED LIGHT / "Backlight" control. The widely known brightness is called Black Level on Sony TVs.
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post #3098 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 12:44 PM
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Wow playing dark games on this thing is beast mode. D00M, Alien Isolation...
Which settings are you using for input lag?
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post #3099 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 01:10 PM
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Am I correct that Custom is not tone mapping metadata but clipping?
So this part of the video is unclear. It sounds like Philip is talking about the z9d only here, since he makes that comment shortly after saying the z9 is their "prosumer display". He also makes reference to this behavior in Custom mode coming in a "future update".

Maybe the "future update" is baked into the A1E firmware.

You can probably check for yourself though with a few simple tests, and have a few options.
Option 1 - Go to this site ( http://rmadvancedcaldisc.com/rm-uhdhdr-10.html ) and buy R Masciola UHD test patterns. The clipping patterns arent in the free demo download so this will cost you $25. (related AVS thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-patterns.html ).

After you downlaod the patterns go into the mp4 files folder ( 02. MP4 Files\01. Basic Setup Patterns\05. White Clipping ) and copy "01 White clipping 1 HDR10.mp4" onto a usb stick. Put it in the TV and play with built in TV Video player or whatever android video player you prefer.

You'll see a ramp of boxes of increasing intensity, labeled with RGB brightness value and some with nits value (100, 400, 1000, etc).

You can see whether the TV is tone mapping or clipping by noticing which boxes are flashing in the pattern. If custom is clipping, the last box that should flash would be around 600-700nits or so. If the one just to the left of 1000 is clipping you're definitely in tone mapping mode.


Option 2:
You mentioned you have a lot of UHD bluray. Apparently Sony UHD bluray have a hidden calibrations patterns menu. I dont have this personally but found instructions on the internet, it looks like it will work the same as Option 1 for you.

"Go to scenes and enter 7669 to start the test pattern. Towards the end there are three grayscale step/ramp patterns. You will use the first two, the second has steps from 100-1000 nits." (source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post46213257 )

It sounds like that second pattern is the one you want and will be similar to the R Masicor pattern I mentioned above.


Now, when looking at this, also understand that the contrast control can have an impact on the clipping behavior. For example, on the z9 Cinema Home Contrast 95 == Cinema Pro Contrast 86 in terms of grayscale response in HDR. I wouldnt be surprised if A1E operated similarly.

Without a meter it will be hard to really do much in terms of modifying grayscale response, but if you aren't getting flashing up to 1000 (in a tone mapping mode), try reducing contrast to see if you can get there to ensure you are not clipping content. Don't reduce contrast too much though as it reduces the brightness of almost the entire curve and you may end up with too dark of a picture if you have to drop contrast too much.

Thats about as far as you can get without a meter, if you really want to nerd out on it you can get an xrite i1 display pro for around $200 on amazon. That meter is very high performing and would help you get the most out of your set (along w/ free software like HCFR) but it would also be a bit of a time commitment so unless you are into it for the hobby and the need to get that last 5% out of your display doing the above is probably good enough.

I hope that helps

Last edited by 10k; 05-06-2017 at 01:15 PM.
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post #3100 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 01:46 PM
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I have a W7...

When you watch the same content between the 2 sets, you'll see..

To me, the A1 clearly has more superior handling of color texture, brightness balances, motion smoothness and plasma-like silky panel warmth.

When the A1 settings activate the XDR and ACE features.. there's NOTHING that touches it.. all of these reviews and side-by-sides are keeping these settings off for a "neutral" comparison.

With real-world content with XDR and ACE on, the W7 is better than all other TVs on the market, except the A1, which blows it away on HDR and SDR playback.

I feel sorry for people relying on tapered test pattern based reviews and hearsay forum posts.. needing to make an informed decision.. vis-a-vis all diverse content handling over the month I've owned the A1 and W7, the A1E X1e enabled LG based TV pisses on everything.

The only real way for anyone to know for sure for their own opinion is to own both.

BTW: A1E HDR10 dynamic handling looks better than the streaming Dolby Vision titles.. I own 2 DV enabled LG TVs and every VUDU DV movie available. The A1E 4K disc handling is superior whereas the 4K disc handling on the LG does not perform better than their VUDU DV counterparts. The next and more real test will be the DV enabled discs with the LG to the HDR10 version on the A1.
Everything you are stating seems to be based on very subjective views. The reason why the review sites use patterns and test cases is because they are objective measurements. They are looking at how the TV compares to "reference" image quality. I'm not saying the Sony isn't better than the LG but I don't believe your comparisons are fair, especially when neither set has been professionally calibrated.
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You missed the sarcasm, but that's OK. My B6's picture is fabulous.

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My quick summary after a night of testing for computer/gaming use:

1. A1E is physically gorgeous. I really love minimalist designs.
2. OLED panel, image is amazing. Not much else to say here.
3. TV has froze on me. Not totally sold on Android for TV's. IMO LG's OS is better.
4. A1E sound is good enough for listening to sports/talking. My normal HiFi speakers were obviously much better for music/movies.
5. 4K 4:4:4 60 Hz input lag (30ms) is noticeable but not super annoying. [Game mode]
6. Clarity "high" setting in which the panel is strobed 8ms on and 8ms off at 60 Hz is unusable. Very noticeable flicker. Resultant MPRT of 8ms was of course much clearer than the normal sample-and-hold 16ms MPRT of 60 Hz, but flicker precludes its use.
7. Using motion smoothing outside of game/graphics mode (only place you can enable) as expected is unusable. Frame interpolation (120 Hz) once again cuts the MPRT down to 8ms from 16ms, but large input lag and motion artifacts precludes its use.
8. TV is silly heavy. I think they went a bit overboard on this.
9. Disappointing that the max brightness is less than the LG's. ABL is also noticeable.
10. The TV will display an image above 60 Hz, but will frame skip rendering that moot.

11. Easter egg. Setting a custom 1080p resolution at 4:4:4 12-bit color at 120 Hz in game mode drops the input lag down to a tested average 15-20ms! This is a great TV for 1080p gamers. You get the 8ms MPRT motion clarity of 120 Hz sample-and-hold and also get that 120 Hz quick/smoothness with barely perceptible input lag. Just don't turn Clarity to "high", it still only strobes at 60 Hz rendering the other 60 Hz in darkness!
6. Clarity "high" setting in which the panel is strobed 8ms on and 8ms off at 60 Hz is unusable. Very noticeable flicker. Resultant MPRT of 8ms was of course much clearer than the normal sample-and-hold 16ms MPRT of 60 Hz, but flicker precludes its use.

There is one comment from a UK owner that Game mode has less apparent BFI flicker than the Cinema Pro mode. Did you notice any differences, or maybe this is just something to do with game mode being 60Hz and Cinema Pro (in UK) 50Hz or some low multiple of 24Hz, and the owner being less sensitive to 60 Hz flicker?
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post #3103 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 02:58 PM
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Sorry I didn't get to this before today but was finally able to record the A1E with my 1000 fps camera. It confirms your findings of 60Hz BFI. See the attached animated gif. Sorry about the low resolution but that's a limit of my camera when recording at 1000 fps. Each frame is 1ms. As you can see, it scans the screen from top to bottom instead of flashing it all at once.

Each person has different sensitivity to 60hz flicker. It didn't bother me. But at the same time, I found the motion resolutions still pretty poor. Using the industry standard FPD Motion Resolution benchmark, I got about 600 lines. Not even close to my old CRTs. I would still take this over LG's 600 lines with motion interpolation because I can't stand interpolation artifacts.
Great GIF!

I hesitate to ask, but could you check if the BFI frequency changes if you add some motion interpolation (I guess "Smoothness" slider)? It would be weird if the scanning was still 60Hz even if the interpolated images were at 120fps.
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Anyone is free to buy these TVs for themselves.. as an avid TV buyer, it's my impression.

The A1E is the best TV I've ever seen and purchased. Anyone coming into this thread will have to put on their big boy pants and accept those statements.

It doesn't take a calibration to see it, and if that's true, then anyone don't waste your money and go buy a EF9500 and calibrate it.
Glad you like it. Hope to see other makers get into the OLED act and make them better and cheaper. Once the 55" is around $3k i just may jump.

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post #3105 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 03:01 PM
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I do not believe any TV is inspected piece by piece, maybe spot checked.......


I thought that was part of LGs concierge service for the 77. I vaguely remember something like that


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post #3106 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 03:07 PM
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Was it a 60 fps content playing? You need 60 fps content to truly see the motion blur go away according to Ness. On 24p movies it doesn't do much.
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interesting. Would there be any reason to expect better motion resolution from a 1080p120 signal?
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Oh nice, I love slow-motion videos. Yes, 60 Hz BFI on this TV isn't that great. It exactly doubles the motion clarity from 16ms sample and hold to 8ms scanning. While that is progress, you obviously do not get anywhere near the ~1ms MPRT clarity of a CRT scanning. In order to get some real motion clarity benefits, the "on" scan should be 5ms or less. But of course the shorter duration the more dim the picture.
Probably can't make it out in the low-res video but it was playing sports/skiing recorded at 60fps. I couldn't actually figure out how to get the set to play 24fps content at native frame rate from USB - everything was playing at 60hz.

The A1E BFI motion resolution will be on-par with 120 fps content. You can see that for yourself if you zoom the rtings BFI blur image and compare to a 120 fps interpolated blur image from A1E or C7. Both show same amount of blurring around the letters. I can see how some people who don't own CRT might find that satisfying but it clearly leaves much to be desired. So did plasmas and their slow and inconsistent phosphor decay.

While 120 fps produces similar blur results to 60Hz BFI, we have no 120 fps content other than PC games and interpolated 60 fps. I have zero tolerance for motion interpolation artifacts. Luckily I'm not bothered by BFI flicker as long as sufficient brightness is maintained. I've been spoiled by CRT and it's depressing that we've gone more than a decade without a suitable replacement for 60 fps motion resolution.

Still praying that the current HDR brightness race will eventually lead to displays that can do BFI with 1ms duty cycle like a CRT and still have decent brightness.
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post #3107 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 03:18 PM
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No, so far I am loving the A1E but the lower input lag of the C7 may pull me that direction. I use my OLED for 70% PC gaming, 15% UHD Blu-Ray and 15% Amazon Prime.

Has anyone seen a service menu with the Sony? I think I've read people turning off ABL on the LG's in the service menu.
There is no way to disable ABL via service menu on any LG OLED. You're thinking of ASBL. 2017 models from Sony and LG both have that ability without messing with SM as long as you keep brightness below 150 nits. On LG, you do this with OLED light < 40 and for Sony your turn off XDR.

Based on the rtings tests, I think the biggest picture quality difference you will see between your C7 and A1E will be near-black gradation. As you can see, the LG OLEDs still fail this test. The 2016 models were even worse and truly horrific when watching dark compressed content from cable or streaming - it was often an unwatchable noise and posterization fest. I briefly tested the C7 with such content and it looked much better than E6 but still showed noticeable contouring. I plan to test this on the A1E next time I visit the store.

Anyone know how to disable the store demo mode on the A1E? It drove me nuts constantly switching back to that stupid glass blowing demo when I was trying to test my own USB content.
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post #3108 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 03:23 PM
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My Sony 4k player runs 4k/HDR videos from its internal app!
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post #3109 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 03:24 PM
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Great GIF!

I hesitate to ask, but could you check if the BFI frequency changes if you add some motion interpolation (I guess "Smoothness" slider)? It would be weird if the scanning was still 60Hz even if the interpolated images were at 120fps.
I don't think the set can do BFI and motion interpolation at the same time. At least not for 60hz content. There is only 1 extra frame to work with and it can only be black or interpolated image.

With 24Hz content, there are more extra frames to work with so maybe Sony can do something clever there. I wasn't able to get the set to play anything from USB at 24Hz so wasn't able to test this. I'll try again next time I visit the store.
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post #3110 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 03:39 PM
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It's so typical Sony TV Android Youtube app does NOT have codec VP9.2, but there UBP-X800 does

Here is an attached ss of a Youtube vid
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I had a Sammy KS8000 last fall before I tried 930d & eventually 65b6(And now A1E) And only the KS had VP9.2

There sure are a lot more HDR vids available now vs 6 months ago! Just finished a dozen or so and I am speechless.

Al, I'm also over in "Custom" now. And it seems to pop a li'l more than STD.
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post #3112 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Anyone is free to buy these TVs for themselves.. as an avid TV buyer, it's my impression.

The A1E is the best TV I've ever seen and purchased. Anyone coming into this thread will have to put on their big boy pants and accept those statements.

It doesn't take a calibration to see it, and if that's true, then anyone don't waste your money and go buy a EF9500 and calibrate it.
You are free to have your opinion but these sets are too close in terms of IQ to objectively say one is better than the other without having both professionally calibrated.
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post #3113 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 04:18 PM
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Check out this guy's review. I like his perspective. He makes some valid points.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebf2Oi23Pw0
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post #3114 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 05:00 PM
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Meant to say review of HDR in film Star Trek, NOT a review of A1E.
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
I don't think the set can do BFI and motion interpolation at the same time. At least not for 60hz content. There is only 1 extra frame to work with and it can only be black or interpolated image.

With 24Hz content, there are more extra frames to work with so maybe Sony can do something clever there. I wasn't able to get the set to play anything from USB at 24Hz so wasn't able to test this. I'll try again next time I visit the store.
'Of course' you can use both interpolation and BFI; at least on the 120Hz LCD's you can both turn on Smoothness and Clearness (but they also have the 'Clear' preset which already combines both and the A1 lacks it). I've seen the Smoothness slider (seemingly?) greyed out in Game Mode on the A1 but not in the Cinema modes ... (would assume the combination would also bump the motion resolution above 600).
But one of the owners would have to confirm, I finally got to see it in person yesterday as the 65" has finally landed in the store nearby and 55" should follow in the coming week

(it certainly grabbed the attention of the random passers by as it was set up along the path to the exit, the LG OLEDS are in some back corner almost hidden from sight as on that side is where the big screen models are on display . Nevertheless still a poor location for the A1 with fluorescent lighting that immediately take away any premium feel of the Bravia OLED display stand when a dedicated room with spot lighting right beside it hasn't been in use for over a year, this is where the LG's used to be on display).

Funny illustration of the tilt; iirc they were about equally tall:



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Originally Posted by Nick Martelli View Post
I'll say this again. You can also create your own custom rating on rtings
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Rather than saying it again it would be more helpful to link to it http://www.rtings.com/user/ratings/new/tv (but it requires registration for whatever reason; it was hard enough to find it in the first place and there is no explanation anywhere beforehand of what the point of becoming a 'user' is)

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post #3116 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 05:11 PM
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Monoprice active cables are junk. They never worked for me.
And my 10-footers work perfectly, to dispel your broad sweeping statements.
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I thought each 77 is carefully inspected.
That may be true, but I suppose it's possible that the yields would fall into the single digits if they used more scrutiny than they do now. All three of these samples can't be outliers:
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post #3117 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Probably can't make it out in the low-res video but it was playing sports/skiing recorded at 60fps. I couldn't actually figure out how to get the set to play 24fps content at native frame rate from USB - everything was playing at 60hz.

The A1E BFI motion resolution will be on-par with 120 fps content. You can see that for yourself if you zoom the rtings BFI blur image and compare to a 120 fps interpolated blur image from A1E or C7. Both show same amount of blurring around the letters. I can see how some people who don't own CRT might find that satisfying but it clearly leaves much to be desired. So did plasmas and their slow and inconsistent phosphor decay.

While 120 fps produces similar blur results to 60Hz BFI, we have no 120 fps content other than PC games and interpolated 60 fps. I have zero tolerance for motion interpolation artifacts. Luckily I'm not bothered by BFI flicker as long as sufficient brightness is maintained. I've been spoiled by CRT and it's depressing that we've gone more than a decade without a suitable replacement for 60 fps motion resolution.

Still praying that the current HDR brightness race will eventually lead to displays that can do BFI with 1ms duty cycle like a CRT and still have decent brightness.
Interesting stuff thanks!

Are you sure your sports footage didn't already have motion blur in the video itself? I think the safest way to test is with a game that have no motion blur enabled. I asked before if grabbing a playing session of Rayman Legends in a video file with high bitrate and then playing it back on the TV app would be sufficient to test the BFI motion blur removal but I had no response. What do you think?

Can't agree more about CRT-like motion being throwed out the window for all these years being a real pity. I don't miss interlaced TVs at all, but they should have found a technology that doesn't do motion blur before dissing CRTs. They saw the LCDs in laptops and they probably went that route just to make thin TVs.

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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Based on the rtings tests, I think the biggest picture quality difference you will see between your C7 and A1E will be near-black gradation. As you can see, the LG OLEDs still fail this test. The 2016 models were even worse and truly horrific when watching dark compressed content from cable or streaming - it was often an unwatchable noise and posterization fest. I briefly tested the C7 with such content and it looked much better than E6 but still showed noticeable contouring. I plan to test this on the A1E next time I visit the store.

Anyone know how to disable the store demo mode on the A1E? It drove me nuts constantly switching back to that stupid glass blowing demo when I was trying to test my own USB content.
To disable store demo mode you need to go in the android home using the HOME button where you see all the android apps and select the Settings button and inside that in the system preferences category there is one button that is called "Retail mode setting".

Here's the link:

http://sony-eur-eu-en-web--eur.custh...dUQldobg%3D%3D
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post #3118 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 07:14 PM
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6. Clarity "high" setting in which the panel is strobed 8ms on and 8ms off at 60 Hz is unusable. Very noticeable flicker. Resultant MPRT of 8ms was of course much clearer than the normal sample-and-hold 16ms MPRT of 60 Hz, but flicker precludes its use.
Hm, will have to give it a try.
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11. Easter egg. Setting a custom 1080p resolution at 4:4:4 12-bit color at 120 Hz in game mode drops the input lag down to a tested average 15-20ms! This is a great TV for 1080p gamers. You get the 8ms MPRT motion clarity of 120 Hz sample-and-hold and also get that 120 Hz quick/smoothness with barely perceptible input lag. Just don't turn Clarity to "high", it still only strobes at 60 Hz rendering the other 60 Hz in darkness!
Interesting. But did you use the Leo Bodnar tester or something else? I'm asking since it's not supposed to properly support anything other than 60 Hz.

LG C7D
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post #3119 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 07:52 PM
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It's so typical Sony TV Android Youtube app does NOT have codec VP9.2, but there UBP-X800 does

Here is an attached ss of a Youtube vid
I noticed that too...
With new streaming technologies , and paid subscriptions (i.e. Netflix, Amazon). Is it still necessary to get a 4K player that'll be "future proof".
It seems to me that it'll be overkill
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post #3120 of 8164 Old 05-06-2017, 07:56 PM
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Just getting around to setting up Game Mode.

I play A LOT of Destiny on Xbox. I believe it is 30fps. What motion settings will minimize input lag?

TIA
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