Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 105 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3121 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
'Of course' you can use both interpolation and BFI; at least on the 120Hz LCD's you can both turn on Smoothness and Clearness (but they also have the 'Clear' preset which already combines both and the A1 lacks it). I've seen the Smoothness slider (seemingly?) greyed out in Game Mode on the A1 but not in the Cinema modes ... (would assume the combination would also bump the motion resolution above 600).
But one of the owners would have to confirm, I finally got to see it in person yesterday as the 65" has finally landed in the store nearby and 55" should follow in the coming week
OLEDs don't have a separate light source that can be dimmed independently at a higher rate like on LCD. The maximum native panel refresh is 120Hz so you can only provide a maximum of 120 unique images per second. Since 60 of those images are the original content, you're left with only 60 to either display black or an interpolated version of the original frames. Either approach will only cut the sample-and-hold time in half so you're only going to double the motion resolution at best. Thus I only saw about 600 lines of motion resolution using a 60fps test pattern.

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Interesting stuff thanks!
Are you sure your sports footage didn't already have motion blur in the video itself? I think the safest way to test is with a game that have no motion blur enabled.
The rtings.com BFI test image tells you everything you need to know. Do you not see the blurring around the letters of the zoomed image with BFI enabled? Same thing happened on the fine lines of the 60fps test pattern I used to test motion resolution (it looks something like this). The thin lines became blurred into a single thick line and reduced the motion resolution to ~600. Also keep in mind that motion resolution depends on the speed of the motion. Some slower panning games may not be as difficult to display clearly. Even this test pattern isn't all that fast but anything faster would have caused all LCD, Plasma, or OLED panels to fail. Releasiing a benchmark that only CRT can pass wouldn't be very useful to a disc called "Flat Panel Display Benchmark Software".
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post #3122 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post
Check out this guy's review. I like his perspective. He makes some valid points.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebf2Oi23Pw0
I think that's Florian Friedrich talking ,an HDR expert. Scott has inviting him to his podcast to talk about HDR.


Nice video! Thanks!
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post #3123 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
OLEDs don't have a separate light source that can be dimmed independently at a higher rate like on LCD. The maximum native panel refresh is 120Hz so you can only provide a maximum of 120 unique images per second. Since 60 of those images are the original content, you're left with only 60 to either display black or an interpolated version of the original frames. Either approach will only cut the sample-and-hold time in half so you're only going to double the motion resolution at best. Thus I only saw about 600 lines of motion resolution using a 60fps test pattern.



The rtings.com BFI test image tells you everything you need to know. Do you not see the blurring around the letters of the zoomed image with BFI enabled? Same thing happened on the fine lines of the 60fps test pattern I used to test motion resolution (it looks something like this). The thin lines became blurred into a single thick line and reduced the motion resolution to ~600. Also keep in mind that motion resolution depends on the speed of the motion. Some slower panning games may not be as difficult to display clearly. Even this test pattern isn't all that fast but anything faster would have caused all LCD, Plasma, or OLED panels to fail. Releasiing a benchmark that only CRT can pass wouldn't be very useful to a disc called "Flat Panel Display Benchmark Software".
Oh yes I could see the blurring on the BFI image on the rtings review and at first I was disappointed but when you compare it to the no BFI standard 60hz sample and hold image then it's a great improvement.

The thing is, I want to see it myself at some point hence why I asked if grabbing Rayman gameplay at 59.94fps would be enough. My guess would be yes. And Rayman blurs the image easily by just walking left to right.
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post #3124 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 07:21 PM
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Probably can't make it out in the low-res video but it was playing sports/skiing recorded at 60fps. I couldn't actually figure out how to get the set to play 24fps content at native frame rate from USB - everything was playing at 60hz.

The A1E BFI motion resolution will be on-par with 120 fps content. You can see that for yourself if you zoom the rtings BFI blur image and compare to a 120 fps interpolated blur image from A1E or C7. Both show same amount of blurring around the letters. I can see how some people who don't own CRT might find that satisfying but it clearly leaves much to be desired. So did plasmas and their slow and inconsistent phosphor decay.

While 120 fps produces similar blur results to 60Hz BFI, we have no 120 fps content other than PC games and interpolated 60 fps. I have zero tolerance for motion interpolation artifacts. Luckily I'm not bothered by BFI flicker as long as sufficient brightness is maintained. I've been spoiled by CRT and it's depressing that we've gone more than a decade without a suitable replacement for 60 fps motion resolution.

Still praying that the current HDR brightness race will eventually lead to displays that can do BFI with 1ms duty cycle like a CRT and still have decent brightness.
I cannot take 60 Hz flicker, nor the input lag and artifacts of frame interpolation to 120 Hz. The only solution for me is to completely abandon 60 Hz and go to 120 Hz with single scan.

So I need HDMI 2.1 or Display-port 1.3/1.4. I hate, HATE 60 Hz. And yet I wait....
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post #3125 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 07:27 PM
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Florian teams up with Joe Kane here:

http://quality.tv/home
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post #3126 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post
Check out this guy's review. I like his perspective. He makes some valid points.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebf2Oi23Pw0
Just watched this, excellent video and I hope he makes a lot more of these.

The most interesting comments to me were around most highlights in the film being around 600nits, although some reach close to 1000. He suggests that since the metadata of the film calls for frame average light level of 500nits, that the film was authored and highlights were managed downward to fit this frame average light level.

It makes sense that they would do this since most HDR displays on the market cannot exceed around 500nits "real content" according to rtings, and many fall far short of this.

Although this is only one movie, this review also validates what Al was saying earlier in the thread about HDR movies being authored to 600nit target.

Star Trek Beyond probably looks fabulous on A1E, especially since a lot of dark scenes seem to be in the ~10nits range.


:edit: He also did a similar technical analysis for Arrival
spoiler: the movie being dark was an artistic choice. Most highlights in the film, even the sun in the sky rarely exceed 100nit. There are many scenes in the film at 1nit. Later on in the film for thematic reasons the film gets brighter but highlights do not exceed 500nit. Theres a link to an interview with the colorist in the description of the video on youtube.

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post #3127 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Creator44 View Post
The thing is, I want to see it myself at some point hence why I asked if grabbing Rayman gameplay at 59.94fps would be enough. My guess would be yes. And Rayman blurs the image easily by just walking left to right.
Yes, video footage of your favorite games is fine. I do the same and have a bunch of clips on USB drive. Keep in mind that some art style games don't have much fine detail. I prefer to use FPS games where you can see textures lose details on floors and walls as you spin the camera around. Not all FPS games have built-in motion blur and many allow disabling the feature on PC version.

Be sure to also take along some [email protected] samples because many older TVs did not support [email protected] USB playback because it exceeded the Blu-Ray h.264 specifications.
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post #3128 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 08:00 PM
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Ordered this today. Will be getting my A1e from VE in a few days. This mount says it will hold up to a 65" and 150lbs. The only negative reviews said that the stand was too heavy. That is a good thing imo



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post #3129 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 10:14 PM
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For those using xbox one s for movies. Are you setting your xbox as 4k? Or setting it to 1080p and checking the 'allow 4k' check box? The difference being letting the xbox do the scaling for non UHD vs the a1e upscaler?


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post #3130 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 11:00 PM
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Now that HDR is being incorporated into games, what is everyone using for HDR settings in Gaming Mode on the A1E, and specifically for a PS4 Pro? I assume the PS4 Pro sends the HDR meta-data and everything is auto-detected by the A1E so long as PS4 Pro settings are set as follows:

[In the Video Output Settings menu, set the HDR and Deep Color output settings to Automatic].

For your information, I've included the current (and upcoming) tally of PS4 Pro games that support HDR in the spoilers link.

Spoiler!
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post #3131 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Martelli View Post
For those using xbox one s for movies. Are you setting your xbox as 4k? Or setting it to 1080p and checking the 'allow 4k' check box? The difference being letting the xbox do the scaling for non UHD vs the a1e upscaler?


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The Xbox upscaling sucks. It crushes blacks real bad. For normal blu-rays I recommend setting it to 1080P and unchecking the allow 4K because the blu-ray app will still upscale unless the 4K box in unchecked even though it claims it will output at 1080P. The 1080P output with 4K checked only works for games.
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post #3132 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 11:07 PM
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Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Owners Thread (No Price Talk)

I just tried putting it on 1080p and checking 'allow 4k'. Popped in Pacific rim UHD and it worked just fine. So it works for 4k movies.

I don't know why that setting would still scale for non uhd. Is it a bug?

What the xbox needs are 2 new settings when in 4k uhd mode:
1. Let your tv upscale non uhd video
2. Let your tv upscale non uhd games

With check boxes next to each


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post #3133 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 11:54 PM
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I just tried putting it on 1080p and checking 'allow 4k'. Popped in Pacific rim UHD and it worked just fine. So it works for 4k movies.

I don't know why that setting would still scale for non uhd. Is it a bug?

What the xbox needs are 2 new settings when in 4k uhd mode:
1. Let your tv upscale non uhd video
2. Let your tv upscale non uhd games

With check boxes next to each



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Yeah it works fine for UHD blu-rays with the 4K checkbox marked, but it is broken for regular blu-rays. Your solution would work best but I'm not holding my breath for them to fix it. It is ridiculous that I have to change a setting when I want to watch a regular blu-ray and it is making me consider buying a stand alone player. I actually can't believe how messed up their upscaling is. I wouldn't mind leaving it on if it worked but my god is it bad.
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post #3134 of 8141 Old 05-06-2017, 11:59 PM
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Flipping channels on cable, playing Netflix, Amazon, and VUDU, playing video games, 4k BD discs and even back to DVDs.

The Canelo and Chavez fight tonight.. I will be watching that on my A1 through the GoldenBoy online PPV feed using the internal Chromecast.

Diverse, real-world content.
Have you tried DVDs? Do you have any concert DVD? I have couple old concert DVDs which are not available in better quality so would be cool if even those are watchable on this TV
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post #3135 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 02:21 AM
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Sorry I didn't get to this before today but was finally able to record the A1E with my 1000 fps camera. It confirms your findings of 60Hz BFI. See the attached animated gif. Sorry about the low resolution but that's a limit of my camera when recording at 1000 fps. Each frame is 1ms. As you can see, it scans the screen from top to bottom instead of flashing it all at once.

Each person has different sensitivity to 60hz flicker. It didn't bother me. But at the same time, I found the motion resolutions still pretty poor. Using the industry standard FPD Motion Resolution benchmark, I got about 600 lines. Not even close to my old CRTs. I would still take this over LG's 600 lines with motion interpolation because I can't stand interpolation artifacts.
And what about clearnes "low"?
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post #3136 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 06:13 AM
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My quick summary after a night of testing for computer/gaming use:










11. Easter egg. Setting a custom 1080p resolution at 4:4:4 12-bit color at 120 Hz in game mode drops the input lag down to a tested average 15-20ms! This is a great TV for 1080p gamers. You get the 8ms MPRT motion clarity of 120 Hz sample-and-hold and also get that 120 Hz quick/smoothness with barely perceptible input lag. Just don't turn Clarity to "high", it still only strobes at 60 Hz rendering the other 60 Hz in darkness!

Did you test the input lag? I would have assumed with the need for 1080p scaling the lag would have re'ained 44ms?



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post #3137 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 06:34 AM
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You should not just look at the overall score on Rtings, but the scores that matter to you.
+1

This is one of the reasons why I am not a big fan of giving a TV 'an overall score'.
Especially when people try to rank different TV based on '0.x' score differences.

There are always trade-off to be done (banding, clouding, posterization, color inaccuracy, on-screen reflections, image retention, narrow viewing angles or whatever) and this is where it comes to the future buyer to identify where priorities should be put on based on his environment, sources, use and personal preferences/perception.
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post #3138 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 07:18 AM
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Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Owners Thread (No Price Talk)

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Originally Posted by BerserkDoomguy View Post
Yeah it works fine for UHD blu-rays with the 4K checkbox marked, but it is broken for regular blu-rays. Your solution would work best but I'm not holding my breath for them to fix it. It is ridiculous that I have to change a setting when I want to watch a regular blu-ray and it is making me consider buying a stand alone player. I actually can't believe how messed up their upscaling is. I wouldn't mind leaving it on if it worked but my god is it bad.

@Al Leong , does your oppo have these options?

I have the lg up970 but haven't used it in favor of the xbox because it needed firmware updates. I think that one scales too, with no option to pass through.

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post #3139 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 07:40 AM
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Can someone with the 65 measure the length of the tv side to side not diagonal
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post #3140 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Martelli View Post
@Al Leong , does your oppo have these options?

I have the lg up970 but haven't used it in favor of the xbox because it needed firmware updates. I think that one scales too, with no option to pass through.
I have my 203 on a Source Direct option which I believe passes through the native rez.
That is correct. I once owned a 203, and the OPPO team confirmed as such with the "Direct" setting toggled it passes thru natively.
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post #3141 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 09:01 AM
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I know its head and shoulders because I own them all.
Then it's your opinion I would like to have. I'm currently using the 79XBR-X900B in my family room where the viewing is 50/50 day/night. It's really washed out with lots of room reflections in the day. When I upgrade, I want to improve on daytime contrast. I saw the A1E at Magnolia and it's got terific contrast and colors. But the lighting in the showroom is less than my daytime family room. The conventional wisdom says that I should go for the Z9D because of it's potentially greater daytime brightness. But, I wonder if the greater contrast of the A1E can overcome this. Is your experience with the two of these in a bright room such that you can comment from experience on this comparison?

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post #3142 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 09:38 AM
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Why don't you do your research, spend some time at a Best Buy looking at the TVs and then make a decision? How many TV's do you plan on "renting" from Best Buy for 45 days and then returning them?
Best Buy is in the business of selling TVs - not being your TV rental for 45 days and then return them service.
Sometimes this hobby becomes to much work Cheers to finding our best set for what we like. Then 5 years or less from now we can do it again as that set will be outdated......
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post #3143 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 10:41 AM
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I saw the A1E at magnolia in houston. I have to say the PQ was so good i got scared.
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post #3144 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 10:47 AM
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If you really liked your 900B, which I had and still find outstanding in picture (I gave it to a family member) I'd recommend the Z9D for the direct successor for the 900B.

The A1E is a bit of a different product where if you're expecting a traditional LED TV operation, it can do that, but you'll have to expect where the A1E is at 100 brightness, would only be 75 on the Z9D.

If I was your salesman, the right choice for replacing a 79" X900B would no question be the 75" or even 100" Z9D.

Wow I didn't know there was a 100" Z9D. Would be awesome for a home theater, till I saw the price.
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post #3145 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 11:15 AM
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And what about clearnes "low"?
"low" is actually equivalent to "off" when playing 60 fps content. I didn't get a chance to test if it does anything for 24 fps content but I doubt it. There's really not much flexibility in what you can do with BFI when panel is limited to maximum of 120 fps. The only other thing they could possibly offer is darker/dimmed frames instead of black frames which would reduce the brightness loss and flicker but also eliminate most of the motion blur benefits. I suspect with HDMI 2.1 coming in the future, OLED panels will eventually support 240Hz refresh and then you will see more options for motion-enhancement and blur-reduction.
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65" Measures

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Can someone with the 65 measure the length of the tv side to side not diagonal
See sketches
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post #3147 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 11:23 AM
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If you really liked your 900B, which I had and still find outstanding in picture (I gave it to a family member) I'd recommend the Z9D for the direct successor for the 900B.

The A1E is a bit of a different product where if you're expecting a traditional LED TV operation, it can do that, but you'll have to expect where the A1E is at 100 brightness, would only be 75 on the Z9D.

If I was your salesman, the right choice for replacing a 79" X900B would no question be the 75" or even 100" Z9D.
Thanks for your opinion. The 79 X900B with the dumbo ears was maxed out in my elevator (Condo). Essentially 82" will be the max width. Since I don't like going down in size, I'm aiming for a thin-bezel 88"--which "might" be in the Sony cards. However, wife says the 79" is too big, so I may be at 75/77", if I give in. Surely, in larger screens 75" is the sweet spot now. Oh well, if I could just get her to sit closer than 10'--but the room just doesn't "look right" to her with the sofa closer.

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LSiC CH, Infinity 6" VOG. 4X 12" subs w/mini DSP on sub 1 and nearfield 18" from sub 2.
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post #3148 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JMensy View Post
Can someone with the 65 measure the length of the tv side to side not diagonal
Check out the "Full Specs Sheet" on the Sony site. Outside measurements, weights, etc are all there. http://www.sony.com/electronics/tele...etails_default
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post #3149 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pakten View Post
See sketches
Thanx mate, couldnt find the information with a google search.

This is finally out in the UK and have a 65 coming this week
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Last edited by JMensy; 05-07-2017 at 11:36 AM.
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post #3150 of 8141 Old 05-07-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post
That is correct. I once owned a 203, and the OPPO team confirmed as such with the "Direct" setting toggled it passes thru natively.


I just picked up the 203. Will just have to stream Netflix through the xbox


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A1E OLED 4K Ultra HD
Oppo 203
Xbox One S
Denon AVR X6300W
Dolby Atmos 5.2.4
Origin Acoustics Theater 68
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