Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 116 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3451 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
And just to re-enforce this, if you are OCD about banding, don't waste your time getting any OLED since all sets have banding but, in my opinion, and I've see a lot of sets both Sony and LG, this year it's so faint that you really need to go looking for it to see it on most sets with actual content. There are still sets out there that have unacceptable banding as in previous years, but this year, they are far fewer, and there has been an improvement in this area.
Is it expected (even with this 2017 panels) to see a bit a banding on darker scenes with panning? I consider that actual content, but I would also expect that you're going to HAVE to see some banding sometimes, even in content if it's panning or darker conditions.

I notice banding when I'm in the TV menus or if a screen has a bunch of any dark color. Panning seems to exacerbates the issue. I've accepted this as the way OLEDs are, just like I accepted some DSE or clouding in LCDs. It's sometimes hard to stomach if you're spending over $4,000 on something that it will be like that, but it's the way it is, and it's currently the best picture you can get.

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post #3452 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jermar View Post
I've had my 65" A1E for two weeks and wonder about keeping the box. My sales person recommended keeping it for as long as possible. This box is huge, and intrusive to keep in the garage. So, how long will you keep your box and all that foam packing?
I gather no attic, but how about a ceiling rack in the garage? That's what I've done with all my high end boxes. Flatten them and keep all packaging. It's definitely worthwhile if your going to sell it in the future, which I assume you might.
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post #3453 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by assplats View Post
Is it expected (even with this 2017 panels) to see a bit a banding on darker scenes with panning? I consider that actual content, but I would also expect that you're going to HAVE to see some banding sometimes, even in content if it's panning or darker conditions.

I notice banding when I'm in the TV menus or if a screen has a bunch of any dark color. Panning seems to exacerbates the issue. I've accepted this as the way OLEDs are, just like I accepted some DSE or clouding in LCDs. It's sometimes hard to stomach if you're spending over $4,000 on something that it will be like that, but it's the way it is, and it's currently the best picture you can get.
You know, it depends. For me on my A1, it's not perfect but it's pretty good and i'm never distracted when watchin the set no matter what the scene is. But if I'm looking for it and focusing my eyes to try and pick it out, yes, sometimes if the gray scale and luminance is just right, I can pick it out. As far as the menus, yes, with a static image and background like that, your eyes are going to focus on the banding and see it but for moving content you should be ok unless your panel is really unacceptable.

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post #3454 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:22 AM
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Those pics of The Hunger Games look great. From what a remember its not a fairly bright movie color wise, so it's impressive that the pictures look that good. I'm curious to see how Life of Pi or Doctor Strange looks in 4k on the A1E. Those neon colors against black backgrounds, must look amazing! If you have those movies I would enjoying seeing the pictures, if you get around to it.
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post #3455 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:24 AM
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So I bought Planet Earth II and am going to Magnolia, they just put the A1E up. Does anyone have suggestions for specific sections to watch to highlight the A1E's advantages? Based upon reviews, here and elsewhere, I'm sold, but want to convince others.
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post #3456 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jfh24 View Post
So I bought Planet Earth II and am going to Magnolia, they just put the A1E up. Does anyone have suggestions for specific sections to watch to highlight the A1E's advantages? Based upon reviews, here and elsewhere, I'm sold, but want to convince others.
Put the A1 in Cinema Pro or Custom HDR modes, make sure the gamma is set to 0, Brightness should be at Max, and you are good to go. Everything else should be set by default.
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post #3457 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jfh24 View Post
So I bought Planet Earth II and am going to Magnolia, they just put the A1E up. Does anyone have suggestions for specific sections to watch to highlight the A1E's advantages? Based upon reviews, here and elsewhere, I'm sold, but want to convince others.
A1E settings as @jrref suggests, then I'd suggest starting with the opening part of disc 1 (lots of variety), and opening scenes of "mountains" which has some great dark/light sections that should wow you. They do every single person I show that to on my home A1E. "Jungles" also has some great contrasty sections if you have the time, along with a bunch of animals you can look at detail with. Have fun!
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post #3458 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Thanks for this. Perhaps its the RGB nature of DCI that's appealing to me.. This grading monitor is DCI https://www.dolby.com/us/en/professi.../prm-4220.html

I appreciate the reads, I can say I like this DCI for viewing.
Not sure what you mean by RGB nature of DCI.

All grading monitors are basically DCI currently, including the Dolby and the Sony BVM OLED. But those are also being fed DCI gamut content over HD-SDI which is a completely different setup that a consumer display being fed Rec.2020 over HDMI. Just because a pro monitor uses a DCI gamut setting doesn't mean that's the correct setting to use at home.
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post #3459 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Chris, interesting comment and I agree, but I just want to say that "on most" A1's that I've seen, once calibrated, the CMS is really good and "in most cases" as good as I can calibrate on the LG with the CMS controls. On my A1, the Calman Colorchecker shows a deltaE of 1 with the skin tone template addition. Now, I agree the LG CMS controls aren't the best and you would be able to tweak the outliers on the A1 if it had CMS controls but for a Retail set, as you said, it's pretty good.
The SDR measurements are much better than the HDR. Going with Saturations here, the SDR data is virtually perfect. No large errors, and the color checker is just as accurate. For SDR, the A1E is basically perfect.



HDR just isn't as good. You get into larger errors as you can see.



But if you remove luminance from it, then you have almost no error at all. So here we are getting into the OLED issue where you have brighter whites than you do other colors due to the use of color filters and the presence of a white subpixel. There isn't much that can likely be done here, until RGB OLEDs like the Sony BVM become more affordable, unless you want to lower the peak output of your whites to make the Sony able to possibly produce brighter colors but I don't know if the A1E would do that correctly. Perhaps having access to the CMS would help, but I don't know if it would.

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post #3460 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post
The SDR measurements are much better than the HDR. Going with Saturations here, the SDR data is virtually perfect. No large errors, and the color checker is just as accurate. For SDR, the A1E is basically perfect.



HDR just isn't as good. You get into larger errors as you can see.



But if you remove luminance from it, then you have almost no error at all. So here we are getting into the OLED issue where you have brighter whites than you do other colors due to the use of color filters and the presence of a white subpixel. There isn't much that can likely be done here, until RGB OLEDs like the Sony BVM become more affordable, unless you want to lower the peak output of your whites to make the Sony able to possibly produce brighter colors but I don't know if the A1E would do that correctly. Perhaps having access to the CMS would help, but I don't know if it would.

What stimulus% are those hdr saturations sweeps at? I agree with everything you said, and thanks for the post. This really speaks to the color volume discussion we were having a number of pages back. Thanks for sharing.
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post #3461 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 09:07 AM
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I'm using D65 since it's the white point for Rec.2020.
That wasn't the point of JimP's post. Metameric failure.... of which all OLEDs are victims of.
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post #3462 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 09:09 AM
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You know, it depends. For me on my A1, it's not perfect but it's pretty good and i'm never distracted when watchin the set no matter what the scene is. But if I'm looking for it and focusing my eyes to try and pick it out, yes, sometimes if the gray scale and luminance is just right, I can pick it out. As far as the menus, yes, with a static image and background like that, your eyes are going to focus on the banding and see it but for moving content you should be ok unless your panel is really unacceptable.

Yeah, I would say typically it is not noticeable on moving content... just occasionally on darker scenes with solid areas of colors. There are quite a few bands and in those conditions 2 or 3 may be noticeable. On static images, there are many more noticeable bands. I'm just trying not to pay any attention to it and see where I'm at after 100 hours of the TV being used, and if it really affects any viewing. So far it hasn't affecting my gaming (currenly Persona 5).

I'd say watching TV at night, I might notice it a few times throughout the entire evening (when not trying to look for it). This sounds like what is expected.

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post #3463 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
So it looks like after viewing several A1s and C7's in person that the A1s seem to have better highlights in SDR and HDR modes although the C7s have a verified higher peak luminance levels. After talking to "sources", and thinking about it from an engineering perspective, it's possible that Sony is "managing" the total available luminance via their picture processing algorithms to generate better highlights. In layman's terms, from a high level, you can think about it this way. The set has a budget on how much luminance it can display for a specific frame for example. This is dependent on the set's power supply, the panel and other factors. Instead of making the whole frame as bright as it can be, it appears that Sony is using their picture processing algorithms to utilize the available luminance to make only the part of the picture "that needs it" brighter.

I haven't been able to 100% verify this hypothesis but it's a plausible deduction based on what the viewer see's when looking at these sets side by side in person. Not that one set is better than the other, they both have subtle differences.
Hi jrref,

thanks for the very interesting thoughts. Keep those thoughts, analyses and measurements coming! Really great.

In the beginning, I was also surprised that SONY was not using all the available brightness that the panel apparently can offer. And I was wondering, why is that? I couldn't believe SONY would technically not be capable of exploiting this. But your hypothesis seems quite plausible, as SONY (to me) almost never releases TVs that "scream" with their PQ, but rather strive more towards the balanced out results with the love for details.

I can't wait for my A1 to arrive... mine is arriving Monday.

Friendly Greetings from Germany.
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post #3464 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 10:33 AM
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Looking at the Color Checker, the luminance values for the two modes (DCI vs. Auto) are similar, except DCI Red is a good 25% higher in Auto mode than in HDR. Here you can see the comparisons and how DCI is under-saturated.

I'm thinking: Maybe SONY are first concentrating on Rec. 709 and BT.2020 inputs, since these are bound to be the most widespread inputs (Due to Bluray, HDTV, Streaming Services and UHD-Bluray) and they will shift focus to improving DCI when the other two are "perfect" in their eyes?
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post #3465 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 10:38 AM
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I wouldn't put too much stock in consumer reports the are too broad in the range of products they review. I think CNet or some other consumer electronics group that has an av background would be better suited to judge these TV sets and I wouldn't use them when buying a tv alone or at all!
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post #3466 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 10:49 AM
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I absolutely understand that. Not looking for perfection although that would be nice. My dad always told me nothing in life is perfect, but I'm talking about easily visible problems in conrent. Obviously if I watched demos all day I would probably never show itself.
That makes perfect sense.......
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post #3467 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 10:54 AM
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I'm thinking: Maybe SONY are first concentrating on Rec. 709 and BT.2020 inputs, since these are bound to be the most widespread inputs (Due to Bluray, HDTV, Streaming Services and UHD-Bluray) and they will shift focus to improving DCI when the other two are "perfect" in their eyes?
I don't see a reason for them to do this. Consumer video content that uses DCI is inside of a Rec.2020 container and there isn't a reason to release it outside of that. To me, DCI and AdobeRGB options can be useful for people that are displaying photos on the TV (since digital cameras often can use AdobeRGB, and an iPhone can shoot DCI gamut) but don't offer much use for video purposes.
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post #3468 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 11:09 AM
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Any ideas on this one in case you don't normally read the calibration thread?

>>> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post52932345

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post #3469 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post
Quick Measurement Result: Using Auto for colorspace, HDR10 color checker has an average dE2000 error of 2.9 and a max of 7.5. Moving that to DCI changes it to an average of 4.0 and Max of 9.0.

UHD Discs use a Rec.2020 container and place the DCI points inside of there, so they are future proof for displays that can do the full Rec.2020 gamut. Forcing the Sony into DCI mode looks to cause worse color accuracy with this method than by leaving it on Auto.
Yes but it's more about what color space tracking was chosen during mastering. There are/were two camps.... track P3 and track 2020 up to the display's capability and then roll off (soft clip) to P3 max saturation points. With the first UHD discs, you had one or the other being done depending on the disc. Last I heard most of Hollywood has agreed to track 2020 and then soft clip to P3. IMO, that was the wrong approach since we will probably never see a true 2020 capable consumer display.... and never should. So, from the Sony's leave it in Auto. Forcing the TV to use DCI when you don't know how the disc was mastered is like what Ted Turner did to B&W movies in the 80s.
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post #3470 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 11:31 AM
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The question is are they adjusting the color treatment from cinema to a home HDR grading, making it a different presentation from the cinema version?
Yes in most cases.
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Beavil, I've been looking for a proven stand solution to negate the tilt. Please keep me posted on your experience with the setup. Some photos would be VERY much appreciated when you have the chance. Ive been holding off on the A1E purchase until I know of an acceptable proven solution. I was thinking that perhaps you don't need to use the extra weight that attaches to the bottom of the tilt stand. THANKS!

This stand worked very well. It is very sturdy.
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Does anyone know if there is a peak brightness advantage when watching wider aspect ratio content? Because the panel isn't pushing light in the letterbox?


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Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Thread (No Price Talk)

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Put the A1 in Cinema Pro or Custom HDR modes, make sure the gamma is set to 0, Brightness should be at Max, and you are good to go. Everything else should be set by default.


Also make sure those idiots have HDMI enhanced on and the right cable plugged into input 2 or 3. Oh yeah and their source set up for 4khdr.


I only say this because I've been in a bunch of even higher end av places then magnolia and had to set the damn things up correctly for them. When they saw the content the right way they were floored.

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post #3474 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 12:37 PM
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Thanks for this. Perhaps its the RGB nature of DCI that's appealing to me.. This grading monitor is DCI https://www.dolby.com/us/en/professi.../prm-4220.html

I appreciate the reads, I can say I like this DCI for viewing.
Lots of people prefer inaccurate color, you're not alone.
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Does anyone know if there is a peak brightness advantage when watching wider aspect ratio content? Because the panel isn't pushing light in the letterbox?


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Never thought of it, but It should be.
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post #3476 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 01:33 PM
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Amazing that it took so many years for Plasma/LCD/LED/OLED to beat good old CRT monitors


Also the Dolby LCD monitor... While I have no doubt its colour accuracy is amazing but... "superior true blacks".. on LCD? Hmmmm
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post #3477 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by assplats View Post
Yeah, I would say typically it is not noticeable on moving content... just occasionally on darker scenes with solid areas of colors. There are quite a few bands and in those conditions 2 or 3 may be noticeable. On static images, there are many more noticeable bands. I'm just trying not to pay any attention to it and see where I'm at after 100 hours of the TV being used, and if it really affects any viewing. So far it hasn't affecting my gaming (currenly Persona 5).

I'd say watching TV at night, I might notice it a few times throughout the entire evening (when not trying to look for it). This sounds like what is expected.
Yes, I'd say this is the norm based on my travails with LG OLEDs in 2015 and 2016, and if you're not seeing it, it's just not a realm of PQ to which you possess a sensitivity, or you've procured a particularly spectacular sample (lottery winner in effect). The larger the TV size, the less likelihood you have of winning.
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post #3478 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Thanks for this. Perhaps its the RGB nature of DCI that's appealing to me.. This grading monitor is DCI https://www.dolby.com/us/en/professi.../prm-4220.html

I appreciate the reads, I can say I like this DCI for viewing.
Lots of people prefer inaccurate color, you're not alone.
I use to be untill I had a pioneer 500m calibrated and will never go back!!!
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post #3479 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 02:38 PM
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Far enough along with the new home that it made sense to bring this in, and get it powered up.

Also made sense to go from my current 55" to 65" now that I have room and the TV doesn't have to share the entertainment center with the speakers.
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Sony 65A1E, Marantz 5010, Polk LSiM 705/704.
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post #3480 of 8123 Old 05-12-2017, 02:55 PM
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CR voted A1E the top 4k tv to buy right now.

http://www.consumerreports.org/lcd-l...buy-right-now/
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OLED65E6P
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