Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 157 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4681 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
If you go to the A1 calibration thread, I've posted scans that show the LG and the Sony "colors" are very close once calibrated. While you are able to get the LG CMS more exact because it has CMS controls, the Sony, does a very good job even without CMS controls. I guess it's their "secret sauce".
John, I totally agree. However in the world of prosumer video/still cameras, it's very different. Even trying to adjust colors in post with Sony cameras, it's very tough to get natural looking flesh tones and, at the same time, natural greens & blues. TVs are a different world.
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post #4682 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 09:29 AM
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I'm curious to know how both the A1E and Z9D handles Dolby Vision in comparison to each other? It's been said the Z9 handles HDR better than the A1E. I'm in the hunt for an upgrade to my XBR 65 X930C down the road if Dolby Vision establishes itself and takes off in home theater! Hopfully these DV updates get here soon!
When Sony releases the Dolby Vision update we will all know the answer to that question
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post #4683 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 09:34 AM
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I still haven't gotten a point of clarification on the A1E. The Sony website suggests that all HDMI inputs are full bandwidth supporting HDCP 2.2. Yet Vincent's video states that only HDMI 2 & 3 are full bandwidth. Does anyone know for sure?

I can't imagine why, at this late date, their top-of-the-line display wouldn't have all inputs with full bandwidth.
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post #4684 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 10:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I still haven't gotten a point of clarification on the A1E. The Sony website suggests that all HDMI inputs are full bandwidth supporting HDCP 2.2. Yet Vincent's video states that only HDMI 2 & 3 are full bandwidth. Does anyone know for sure?

I can't imagine why, at this late date, their top-of-the-line display wouldn't have all inputs with full bandwidth.
Pretty sure you're misreading it.

It's a little misleading but on all of the new Sony's it's HDMI 2.2 and HDMI 2.0A on all ports, but only 18 gbps on 2 and 3.
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post #4685 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Pretty sure you're misreading it.

It's a little misleading but on all of the new Sony's it's HDMI 2.2 and HDMI 2.0A on all ports, but only 18 gbps on 2 and 3.
You are correct. I think you typo'd and meant to write HDCP 2.2 compliant for the first part.

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post #4686 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 10:43 AM
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The A1E Marketing Specs on the Sony Site offers a little more detail on what is and is not provided on HDMI 2 & 3, but honestly, their use of colons and commas can add to the confusion. Below is an extract of the pertinent text:

Inputs & Outputs
- 4K 60P High-Quality Formats
-- Up to 18Gbps:4K 60p 4:4:4(8bit), 4:2:2(8,10,12bit), 4:2:0(8,10bit) HDR included for HDMI 2/3
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post #4687 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 10:51 AM
 
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You are correct. I think you typo'd and meant to write HDCP 2.2 compliant for the first part.
whoops, yep. see how easy it is to get things jumbled.
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post #4688 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 11:23 AM
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Can someone please explain to me the advantage(s) of adding a lut box to the Sony A1E?

Thanks in advance for the response(s).
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post #4689 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 01:58 PM
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Can someone please explain to me the advantage(s) of adding a lut box to the Sony A1E?

Thanks in advance for the response(s).
Hi, the TV's are coming with some calibration controls which give the capability to calibrate it's Grayscale/Gamma/Color Gamut. To this area Sony has 10-Point RGB Balance controls to be able to calibrate Grayscale/Gamma (while LG's have 20-Point for example) but no adjustments for Color Gamut adjustments (Sony has only global control or color and tint while LG has Full CMS (adjust Hue/Saturation/Luminance per each primary/secondary color, but may not work as expected); so when you have full CMS adjustments you can calibrate 6 colors.

The problem is that when you are moving away from the calibrated points and measuring other luminance or saturation levels, the errors are will be increased, so the more points (of different luminance/saturation levels) you measure the more errors you will locate. Classic charts or limited points been used usually don't show these issues.

Generally fixing only grayscale issues doesn't guarantee an accurate picture, you get only some good looking Grayscale charts with low dE, the real performance can still have a lot of errors because you are correcting only a few points, away from skin tones or memory colors correction, most of the movies are using mid-low saturation/luminance range colors if you analyze movies data's; most of the colors have mid-low levels, away from the edge of the gamut (100% Saturation / 100% Luminance); the colors which commonly calibrated using display internal calibration controls (Sony don't have these CMS controls) and default calibration software workflows.

Sony especially after a perfect calibration using internal controls only is suffering at mid-low end colors and this is something that is noticed with real content viewing.

Using 3D LUT you calibrate many different levels or saturation/hue/luminance, so your performance will be reference at any color, in 8-bit systems, the allocation of 17 nodes per component (17-Point Cube) proves that is best trade off between display/meter/processor hardware / measuring time / display stability and overall quality, that's why that size is commonly used at pro industry.

The most important is the total volumetric accuracy for the best final results, consumer displays has not so linear tracking to all it's areas, so a large cube with a profiling sequence that 17 or 21-Point Cube (4.913 or 9.261 Color Points) grid-based with equal spaced RGB values will cover all potential colors equally and give the most accurate correction.

With manual calibration using internal controls you have to take multiple adjustments of the available calibration controls, but usually one change at one area is affecting nearby area so at the end you will spend some hours only to do a 10-Point Grayscale calibration, until to get some good looking charts.

This is a RGB 3D Cube presentation; (ignore the 6 dots of colors.....which you don't calibrate since Sony don't have CMS controls); you see what points represent the Grayscale calibration you perform with Sony internal controls.






The average Caucasian skin tone resides well away from any grey scale, or primary color, this is why the ColorChecker patches is a good choice of measurement run (after Saturation runs) because they contains skin tones, grass, sky, etc.; which are memory colors.

With 3D LUT you will have to do only basic setup from your internal calibration controls, contrast/brightness/sharpness, select the native gamut option and pre-calibrate only 100% White....and then let the other thousand color points to be measured by (LightSpace/CalMAN/DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS) and from the thousand points it will be measured automatically, the 3D LUT correction will be generated for 65-Point Cube (274.625 Color Points) for eeColor and the correction is stored to eeColor memony. From one measurement run you can create different corrections with different gamma value, to have a Gamma 2.2 3D LUT correction for older BD-Movies, 2.35 for not so old ones and 2.4 for the latest, or whatever other gamma you like since you have 6 memory slots.

Then you upload the 3D LUT correction file to eeColor 3D LUT Box. After that you take post-verification measurements.

I have posted some results from 3D LUT in a LG OLED here, and Pioneer KURO there; using LightSpace with eeColor 3D LUT Box.

Here is the 3D Cube presentation of RGB space using 3D LUT correction with 17 & 21 point cube size.



Ever Dolby Monitor which designed to be reference needs 3D LUT profiling to meet the tight tolerance in color errors that required for critical color reproduction for movie grading in post-production facilities.

For example Dolby Monitor PRM-4200/4220 has 2x 65-Point 3D LUT Tables slots, same size like eeColor 3D LUT Box features (which has 6 memories).

3D LUT is the best solution for reference quality SDR pictures, because REC.709 (blu-ray) is a colorspace which Sony is covering 100% calibrated and cover obviously blu-ray's mastered luminance levels also (100-120nits) so for SDR is the ultimate solution to transform any display to have reference level.

So if your calibrator can provide you 3D LUT calibration, since he will have reference meters (refernece spectro and fast colorimeter which has perfect low light capabilities because in 3D LUT the measured dark patches are a lot) then you gain even more fidelity and will have the best possible reference image for HT environment.
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post #4690 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 02:19 PM
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That's OLED. I haven't seen a single one with perfectly uniform white. The pink hue is worse than yellow splotches that you can get.....but not as bad as banding. I personally would exchange based on those pictures but its up to you which faults you are ok with.
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This is "normal" and every set I've seen including my own, has a little of this. I do know that calibration will make this a little less noticeable once you get the gray scale balanced. You can return the sets all you want and they all have it to one degree or another.
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Mine has no pink. OP needs to have that replaced, it's terrible. It's worse than my ef9500.
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Sorry, that's not normal. No pink on mine.
Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it. Still none the wiser though as a difference of opinion. Given I've had 5 OLEDs, I'm tempted to believe they all have it to some extent, but the majority seem sure their OLED has no tint. Maybe some people are more sensitive to it than others, but anyone could see it on mine and on every set I've had you don't have to go looking for it. It's obvious just watching the TV. Even on things like Veep where parts of Selina's office has sand coloured walls, they look more orange and darker where the pink tint is. I know no TV is perfect and I could live with a slight tint, but this is over about 2/3 of the screen and strongest on the left edge.
To be honest, I'm struggling to see how calibration could help as the tint is so uneven. I appreciate I'm not doing properly with equipment, but dropping the red gain makes the areas that aren't pink green. Then dropping the green gain brings magenta up in the ares that were pink.
So no one knows of anything external that would cause it, or at least make it worse? Good to know at least.

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Hi, each unit can have different level of uniformity, AFIK, the companies which selling panels have categories to grade the panels, the ones which will pass and perform more accurately there Grade A+, others are A,B+,B,C etc...
I was done with OLED, but went with the A1 because I thought the quality control would be better on the Sony, but unfortunately my A1 is probably the worst of all. What's weird is that it definitely wasn't to start with.
Not sure what to do next. I've always had plasma TVs, so know I wouldn't be happy with an LCD, but might not have a choice. Shame, as the picture on this TV is the best I've ever seen, pink tint not withstanding.
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Pretty sure you're misreading it.

It's a little misleading but on all of the new Sony's it's HDMI 2.2 and HDMI 2.0A on all ports, but only 18 gbps on 2 and 3.



So do ports 1 and 4 support a streaming device or game system running at 4K HDR 60 FPS? (i.e. AppleTV 4K (someday),Playstation 4 Pro and Microsoft Scorpio)


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post #4692 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 03:17 PM
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In my testing, leaving ACE on low for SOME material actually helps match the intent, for example when there is a scene to scene metadata issue in HDR 10, or in some so-so BD content. So I wouldn't say that's not worth using sparingly even when you are calibrated. So that leaves ONE setting where we may agree. Live color, which honestly I haven't heard anyone here talking about using. However, that may have a use in standard def DVDs for example where the color suffers from compression.
Unless you sat at a post house with the colorist and client (which would include the director), you have no idea what the intent of the picture presentation was. However, no post house/colorist/director uses nor ever would use Sony's consumer processing enhancements when creating and signing off on a project.
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post #4693 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 03:27 PM
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Unless you sat at a post house with the colorist and client (which would include the director), you have no idea what the intent of the picture presentation was. However, no post house/colorist/director uses nor ever would use Sony's consumer processing enhancements when creating and signing off on a project.


You are taking that WAY too literally man.
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However, no post house/colorist/director uses nor ever would use Sony's consumer processing enhancements when creating and signing off on a project.
Neither are they doing it for the plethora of 103d/105d Darbee enabled players OPPO sold a ton of.. consumer gear processing is nothing new.
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post #4695 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 04:08 PM
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Neither are they doing it for the plethora of 103d/105d Darbee enabled players OPPO sold a ton of.. consumer gear processing is nothing new.
The point is not to mix consumer processing and "director intent" in the same sentence because it is false. What processing you or anyone else prefers has absolutely nothing to do with "director intent".... while we are at it, people need to let go of the "director intent" comment all together.
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The point is not to mix consumer processing and "director intent" in the same sentence because it is false. What processing you or anyone else prefers has absolutely nothing to do with "director intent".... while we are at it, people need to let go of the "director intent" comment all together.
I get that.. but can't let go of it totally.. because with the 4K BD "The 5Th Wave".. I'm sure the director intent was to make a good movie..
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Pretty sure you're misreading it.

It's a little misleading but on all of the new Sony's it's HDMI 2.2 and HDMI 2.0A on all ports, but only 18 gbps on 2 and 3.
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You are correct. I think you typo'd and meant to write HDCP 2.2 compliant for the first part.
Thanks for the clarification guys. I'm a bit surprised by this.
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Pretty sure you're misreading it.

It's a little misleading but on all of the new Sony's it's HDMI 2.2 and HDMI 2.0A on all ports, but only 18 gbps on 2 and 3.
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Thanks for the clarification guys. I'm a bit surprised by this.
So does 4K HDR at 60 FPS require 18 gbps? If so, you couldn't use ports 1 or 4 for a PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio or a future streaming box that outputs 4K HDR at 60 FPS. Correct?

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post #4699 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 04:35 PM
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So does 4K HDR at 60 FPS require 18 gbps? If so, you couldn't use ports 1 or 4 for a PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio or a future streaming box that outputs 4K HDR at 60 FPS. Correct?

Dan
Yes, HDR requires HDMI 2.0a, [email protected] 4:2:0 requires 11.14 Gbps (HDMI 2.0a has transmission data rate up to 18 Gbps)

So for [email protected] YCbCr 4:2:0 you need HDMI 2.0a clocked @ 600 Mhz (capable up to 18 Gbps), while for [email protected] 4:2:0 you need HDMI 2.0a clocked @ 300 Mhz (capable up to 10.2 Gbps).

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I get that.. but can't let go of it totally.. because with the 4K BD "The 5Th Wave".. I'm sure the director intent was to make a good movie..
You have jokes.
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Originally Posted by dancolt View Post
So does 4K HDR at 60 FPS require 18 gbps? If so, you couldn't use ports 1 or 4 for a PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio or a future streaming box that outputs 4K HDR at 60 FPS. Correct?

Dan
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Yes, HDR requires HDMI 2.0a, [email protected] 4:2:0 requires 11.14 Gbps (HDMI 2.0a has transmission data rate up to 18 Gbps)

So for [email protected] YCbCr 4:2:0 you need HDMI 2.0a clocked @ 600 Mhz (capable up to 18 Gbps), while for [email protected] 4:2:0 you need HDMI 2.1 clocked @ 300 Mhz (capable up to 10.2 Gbps).
In an effort to appear even more dense.

So ports 1 and 4 are not 600 Mhz so they would NOT support an PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio or a future streaming box that outputs 4K HDR at 60 FPS? In other words, Sony went cheap on the HDMI ports and you really only have 2 fully functioning ports.

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post #4702 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 04:55 PM
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In an effort to appear even more dense.

So ports 1 and 4 are not 600 Mhz so they would NOT support an PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio or a future streaming box that outputs 4K HDR at 60 FPS? In other words, Sony went cheap on the HDMI ports and you really only have 2 fully functioning ports.

Thanks
Dan
Thank goodness they didn't cheap out on processing and image quality though. Looking at you, LG.
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Thank goodness they didn't cheap out on processing and image quality though. Looking at you, LG.
Agreed but Damn.... For $5,500 they should included 4 HDMI high speed ports.

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post #4704 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 05:01 PM
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Agreed but Damn.... For $5,500 they should included 4 HDMI high speed ports.



Dan


And a better processor for Android TV


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post #4705 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 05:02 PM
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In an effort to appear even more dense.

So ports 1 and 4 are not 600 Mhz so they would NOT support an PS4 Pro, Xbox Scorpio or a future streaming box that outputs 4K HDR at 60 FPS? In other words, Sony went cheap on the HDMI ports and you really only have 2 fully functioning ports.

Thanks
Dan
You will need to get an HDMI 2.0a 600MHz Switcher 2x1 like HD Fury Linker; to add one extra input.

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post #4706 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Fuzalert View Post
Thank goodness they didn't cheap out on processing and image quality though. Looking at you, LG.
You mean the 'image quality' that most professional reviews say are so close that the LG & Sony are almost indistinguishable? The same 'image quality' that those professional reviews say one does better in some areas and the other better in other areas?

@ataneruo ...a better processor for Android? The LG uses a far superior OS, they don't use Android...thank God. Sony should have ditched Android, regardless of processor. It's slow & unstable.
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post #4707 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You will need to get an HDMI 2.0a 600MHz Switcher 2x1 like HD Fury Linker; to add one extra input.
Or get a receiver with multiple, full bandwidth, HDMI inputs.
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post #4708 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Thanks for the clarification guys. I'm a bit surprised by this.
Defiinitely strikes me as cost-cutting measure, for whatever reason given the price. Really doesn't make any sense since all four HDMI ports on the LG B6 are full bandwidth. I knew this ahead of time, but it's another non-issue for me as I have a receiver. For others though...

Sony XBR-65A1E | Marantz SR7010 | Infinity P362, PC350, P162, P152 | SVS PC-2000 (2) | Microsoft Xbox One X | Apple TV
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post #4709 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 07:15 PM
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I just got my Sony a1e. I had the LG g6 both 65. I have the OPPO203 DVD player. Watching Content is much better on sony motion wise but I'm having a problem with HDR. I find the TV to be a lot darker than the G6 for some reason In HDR. And the G6 would play the same movies I have using the whole screen. The Sony crops it a little on top and bottom which annoys me Don't know if there's something I can-do in the settings But it's very dark as well.
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post #4710 of 8172 Old 06-07-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by GuyR13 View Post
I just got my Sony a1e. I had the LG g6 both 65. I have the OPPO203 DVD player. Watching Content is much better on sony motion wise but I'm having a problem with HDR. I find the TV to be a lot darker than the G6 for some reason In HDR. And the G6 would play the same movies I have using the whole screen. The Sony crops it a little on top and bottom which annoys me Don't know if there's something I can-do in the settings But it's very dark as well.
Since the image of the A1e is a lot darker and seems cropped to you vs the G6...as well as loss of 3D.. Why are you staying with the A1E?
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