2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 1021 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #30601 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rego00123 View Post
The majority of color banding i see on these sets is inherent to the sources...WITH THE EXCEPTION of near blacks . The current crop of oleds just lacks the precision in the near black department. This can introduce all kinds of odd behaviors and even forms of banding in to the mix with right types of content being played. This is why you will often see people complain of things like fading transition shots looking “not as smooth” on oleds.
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
1) There aren't any magic settings on the 2017 LG OLED TV's that will get rid of banding, and it's not the fault of the TV.
The fact that the Dolby Vision mode reduces banding and related near-black artifacts even on non-DV content kind of proves the opposite; that it's not just a source-problem or an OLED-problem. The native HDR processing on these sets is demonstrably suboptimal.
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post #30602 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Reminds me of a friend I have who spent $1000 on a receiver and $150 on a Subwoofer. Then blames the receiver for the Subwoofer sound. You also dont use Walmart oil for a Ferrari.
This is such a bull**** analogy for this situation. So what you're saying is don't use the apps that come preloaded on your brand OLED for watching TV if you don't want banding. Oh and don't connect any devices like your cable box or satellite box to your OLED, only certified 4k HDR devices.
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post #30603 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Setzer View Post
This is such a bull**** analogy for this situation. So what you're saying is don't use the apps that come preloaded on your brand OLED for watching TV if you don't want banding. Oh and don't connect any devices like your cable box or satellite box to your OLED, only certified 4k HDR devices.
Its all about the signal you feed the TV in my opinion. So VHS worst, Cable in between and 4K best. I do connect cable and use the apps but i know what I'm going to get with them and don't really mind because the stuff that we bought this TV for looks awesome.

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post #30604 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 06:24 PM
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^this.
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post #30605 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 06:31 PM
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OK, I've been reading along with the banding issue that Freeze Time is running into. I have a B7A and didn't remember seeing any banding with the final episode of Westworld so just went back to check it again. I played it using a 4K Roku plugged into HDMI IN on my Oppo 203 feeding video directly to my B7A. Using the HBO/Now app on the Roku the B7A reports 2160p resolution. I went to the "red background" scenes and didn't notice any banding...until I looked REALLY closely. I could barely make out any banding and actually am not really sure I did see any in these scenes.


That said, not long after I got the TV (December) I was streaming something from Netflix , can't remember what, and got some really noticeable banding. It really threw me. I'm pretty sure I was using the same setup (I'm old and forgetful). But I haven't noticed any banding since on the many shows I've streamed.


For setting up my TV, which looked horrible out of the box, I used the settings suggested on rtings.com with just the slightest of tweaks (brought up the brightness as I recall) and haven't changed them since and am very pleased.



https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg...-oled/settings


Just my 2 cents.

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post #30606 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Its all about the signal you feed the TV in my opinion. So VHS worst, Cable in between and 4K best. I do connect cable and use the apps but i know what I'm going to get with them and don't really mind because the stuff that we bought this TV for looks awesome.
So what you're saying is, you use Wal-Mart oil for your Ferrari.
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post #30607 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^this.
UHD HDR DV 4K goodness.
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post #30608 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 07:13 PM
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^oh yeah! Altered Carbon is phenomenal!
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post #30609 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie.modernist View Post
Ah I get the distinction, thanks for the detailed post. I totally see compression noise in HBO Go, which does not follow a curvilinear banding patter, but instead a mosaic jagged blocking pattern like this:



There is absolutely no banding in a superior source, like this shot from Last Jedi also streaming in 1080p SDR off of iTunes (imgur has added some compression artifacts, but there are 0 issues here):


I learned this in audio a long time ago, getting the best most revealing equipment means not designing for the lowest common denominator. As you said there is nothing wrong with the OLEDs, and expecting them to hide the flaws of a weak source while also showing off a better source to the highest standard is counterintuitive.

That first shot I call color banding so if that's not 100% color banding, that's my bad. I see that a lot. Regarding The Last Jedi, I watched it in 1080p through the built in Netflix App and the scene 17:10 has banding issues in the background red. Also in some night scenes. I will post pics soon. Again, I call it banding but if it's mosaic noise or whatever, I am seeing that too. I have also seen Mosaic noise or color banding in 4K discs and streaming sites like netflix and amazon even in 4k sources like Unbreakable Kimmy schmidt, The Tick etc. Have also seen it in 1080p video games. It can't be both the source and or streaming device when the exact same stream on the exact same device has no banding on different TV's like the Sony that was used here. That is all the B7A assuming everyone is using the same settings of course which there is no need to lie about.
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post #30610 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 07:29 PM
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Freezetime. Try turning up your oled light. I remember somebody posting on here he had a guy come to his house to replace the screen but used apr or standard instead of his calibrated settings and it greatly reduced the banding from view. The guy said he didnt need his panel replaced. So anyways i would try that.
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post #30611 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 07:57 PM
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Here you go. The red scene starts at 17:10 in. The dark scenes are at 1:08:30. The only way I have found that reduces the banding or digital noise or mosaic or whatever you want to call it is to put brightness at 100. This is on technicolor mode using sonoftumble's settings. All the other picture modes look similar regarding the issue. This is just The Last Jedi. I have this issue on other sources too and I've already posted screens of those. I am still not sure why I need to post pictures when I tell people here the exact time's I have the issues and they go and check for themselves anywhere but here they all are. When I get a chance, I will compare and even take and post pictures of my roommates Samsung TV at these same scenes if I have to. Some of the red scenes didn't really come through in the pics but the black ones sure did.
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Last edited by Freeze Time; 07-02-2018 at 08:06 PM.
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post #30612 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lax01 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't lossless mean there isn't any compression?

No you can compress things in two ways. Lossy (like jpeg and mp3 where you throw some less important data away to make it more compressible) and lossless (like png, flac, zip, etc where the data is 100% the same when decompressed as before compression). Lossless compression sometimes can't compress the data at all, while lossy compression can always throw something away to make the data compressible. TrueHD uses Meridian Lossless Packing for compression which usually gives about a 1.5:1 compression, so like 2/3 the original size. Not great compression but better than nothing and looses nothing at all.
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post #30613 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 08:24 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't lossless mean there isn't any compression?
Whether we are dealing with video or audio data, lossless means that the actual data that comprises a sound or an image is not removed from the signal. Think of it like a document in which all the spaces are removed, but ALL the words and letters are still in the document. This will essentially "compress" the document to a smaller size, but with the data still in place. Through the magic of modern tech, there are algorithms that can manage the removal of the spaces on the head end and then put them back in on the other side - i.e. lossless.
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post #30614 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Freeze Time View Post
Here you go. The red scene starts at 17:10 in. The dark scenes are at 1:08:30. The only way I have found that reduces the banding or digital noise or mosaic or whatever you want to call it is to put brightness at 100. This is on technicolor mode using sonoftumble's settings. All the other picture modes look similar regarding the issue. This is just The Last Jedi. I have this issue on other sources too and I've already posted screens of those. I am still not sure why I need to post pictures when I tell people here the exact time's I have the issues and they go and check for themselves anywhere but here they all are. When I get a chance, I will compare and even take and post pictures of my roommates Samsung TV at these same scenes if I have to. Some of the red scenes didn't really come through in the pics but the black ones sure did.
Those shots look terrible. What is your source for these shots? Also, reset Technicolor to default and then put the OLED light to 40, brightness 51, use gamma of 2.4 and tell me what you see.

Edit.... nevermind on the source question. Reviewing your posts, you are using Netflix to watch this correct? I can replicate what your are seeing here on my A1E and it is Netflix’s copy. Apparently whoever did this encoding at Netflix screwed it up as using a 1080p output from my ATV with RGB High, YCbCr 4:4:4 or 4:2:0 shows the bit depth issues. Setting the ATV to output 4K SDR @ 4:4:4 reduces the issues but it is still visible. This stuff is non existent on the iTunes version and BD/UHD BD.
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Last edited by D-Nice; 07-02-2018 at 09:02 PM.
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post #30615 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by yogi6807 View Post
Both my tvs do that! It only does it on direct tv and hulu for me i think. Its much worse on the 65 inch though. I dont see that on regular or hdr discs. I just thought it was the weaker processor in the tv having issues "dealing with life". It doesn't really bother me.

I wish it didn't bother me or I didn't notice it.



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Those shots look terrible. What is your source for these shots? Also, reset Technicolor to default and then put the OLED light to 40, brightness 51, use gamma of 2.4 and tell me what you see.

I know it does. That's what I am trying to get across here. I did everything you asked even though I didn't want to because it took me a couple min to do all of the settings sonoftumble suggests but here it is. As you can see, little to no difference. BTW, when I got this notification, I was watching Altered Carbon episode 6 and it's beautiful. No banding at all but other than DV, I get whatever you want to call what is happening in all other sources even some HDR 10 content. Again, this is only The Last Jedi. I've posted pics of other content with this issue. It's not only streaming content.
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Last edited by Freeze Time; 07-02-2018 at 09:15 PM.
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post #30616 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Freeze Time View Post
I wish it didn't bother me or I didn't notice it.






I know it does. That's what I am trying to get across here. I did everything you asked even though I didn't want to because it took me a couple min to do all of the settings sonoftumble suggests but here it is. As you can see, little to no difference. BTW, when I got this notification, I was watching Altered Carbon episode 6 and it's beautiful. No banding at all but other than DV, I get whatever you want to call what is happening in all other sources even some HDR 10 content.
Make sure you read my edited post.
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post #30617 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Setzer View Post
So what you're saying is, you use Wal-Mart oil for your Ferrari.
I use Mobil 1 0W40 "Euro Formula" oil in my Subaru WRX. It's supposed to be the factory fill for Porsche, Aston Martin, and AMG Mercedes. I dunno about those jumped-up Fiats.

Where do I buy it? Walmart.
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post #30618 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:23 PM
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Make sure you read my edited post.

I just did. I edited my post to include that this happens on all other kinds of content too. I don't have the 4K disc of TLJ but I'll try to get a hold of it and see what it looks like. You are stating that TLJ will have that color banding/noise/whatever the hell we are calling it on every TV through Netflix correct? If I watch it on my roommates Samsung TV, I will see the same thing? I have already PM'd a user here that checked it on his Sony TV through Netflix and he says there is no banding so is he lying? This is getting ridiculous.


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Most of his compliant have been complaining about banding inherit from the source and he's mad LG doesn't mask it well enough. No magic setting will fix that. Maybe this TV isn't for you because you have serious OCD about color banding and you expect perfection out of sources like video games (lol) and streamed content. You will never be happy.

People really do have selective reading. Again, people in this thread are adamant that they DO NOT HAVE THE SAME ISSUE AS ME. I repeat, they can stream Netflix and watch the exact same content as me and it's perfect with no color banding/digital noise/mosaic artifacts. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand. I see it even in 4K disc content. Calling it serious OCD shows how ignorant you are. I purchased a pretty expensive TV. I would think that it would be able to handle something a $400 TV could. I have never once stated that this is only happening on streamed content either. I get about 50-60 download speed pretty much all the time. That is more than enough to stream any resolution. When posters here stream the exact same content using the exact same app and state that they don't have the issues I do, isn't that a problem??



Then you read posts and articles that this TV just can't handle the color banding or whatever we are calling it well and even the 2018 models aren't much better but yet it gets contradicted when users here state their B7A has ZERO issues in that area. It's like an Abbott and Costello routine.
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Last edited by Freeze Time; 07-02-2018 at 09:36 PM.
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post #30619 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:25 PM
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^D-Nice is not steering you wrong, he just told you that he saw the same thing on his a1e...which btw is a sony.
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post #30620 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeze Time View Post
Here you go. The red scene starts at 17:10 in. The dark scenes are at 1:08:30. The only way I have found that reduces the banding or digital noise or mosaic or whatever you want to call it is to put brightness at 100. This is on technicolor mode using sonoftumble's settings. All the other picture modes look similar regarding the issue. This is just The Last Jedi. I have this issue on other sources too and I've already posted screens of those. I am still not sure why I need to post pictures when I tell people here the exact time's I have the issues and they go and check for themselves anywhere but here they all are. When I get a chance, I will compare and even take and post pictures of my roommates Samsung TV at these same scenes if I have to. Some of the red scenes didn't really come through in the pics but the black ones sure did.
Those shots look terrible. What is your source for these shots? Also, reset Technicolor to default and then put the OLED light to 40, brightness 51, use gamma of 2.4 and tell me what you see.

Edit.... nevermind on the source question. Reviewing your posts, you are using Netflix to watch this correct? I can replicate what your are seeing here on my A1E and it is Netflix’s copy. Apparently whoever did this encoding at Netflix screwed it up as using a 1080p output from my ATV with RGB High, YCbCr 4:4:4 or 4:2:0 shows the bit depth issues. Setting the ATV to output 4K SDR @ 4:4:4 reduces the issues but it is still visible. This stuff is non existent on the iTunes version and BD/UHD BD.
Thanks for checking that. You saved me a phone call to lg.
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post #30621 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Freeze Time View Post
I wish it didn't bother me or I didn't notice it.

I know it does. That's what I am trying to get across here. I did everything you asked even though I didn't want to because it took me a couple min to do all of the settings sonoftumble suggests but here it is. As you can see, little to no difference. BTW, when I got this notification, I was watching Altered Carbon episode 6 and it's beautiful. No banding at all but other than DV, I get whatever you want to call what is happening in all other sources even some HDR 10 content.
Your posted examples are not color banding but instead represent 1080P SDR H.264 compression artifacts.

Attached is the exact same scene from Blade Runner 2049 ( Samsung K8500 Blu-ray player ). You will see an HDR10 4K WCG example with a marginal cable followed by the same with a good cable. Finally there's a DV example from the built-in Vudu app. The marginal cable caused the panel to go into 8 bit mode which created banding because the panel no longer knew what to do with the 12 bit color data. In some ways my example resembles the compression artifacts found in your examples. but they are not the same, and I was able to get rid of the problem by changing the cable.

EDIT: The moire effects were caused by the camera and not visible on the panel.
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post #30622 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Freeze Time View Post
I just did. I edited my post to include that this happens on all other kinds of content too. I don't have the 4K disc of TLJ but I'll try to get a hold of it and see what it looks like. You are stating that TLJ will have that color banding/noise/whatever the hell we are calling it on every TV through Netflix correct? If I watch it on my roommates Samsung TV, I will see the same thing? I have already PM'd a user here that checked it on his Sony TV through Netflix and he says there is no banding so is he lying? This is getting ridiculous.
TLJ sent to your TV as 1080p from Netflix is the issue. If TLJ is sent to your TV with a resolution of 4K and 4:4:4 color, the bit depth issues will be reduced but will still be there. I have no idea how it would look on your roomemate’s Samsung. I can’t tell you how it would look on a plasma or front projector ATM either. With your B7..... it’s a Netflix source issue. You can and will encounter the same issue with other content that has bit depth issues (i.e. cable tv, other apps). Based on what I saw, it is simply a compressed 8bit source issue.

BTW, you should not see these issues with the majority of BD/UHD BD. There is and always will be poor encodes out there.
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post #30623 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
Your posted examples are not color banding but instead represent 1080P SDR H.264 compression artifacts.

Attached is the exact same scene from Blade Runner 2049 ( Samsung K8500 Blu-ray player ). You will see an HDR10 4K WCG example with a marginal cable followed by the same with a good cable. Finally there's a DV example from the built-in Vudu app. The marginal cable caused the panel to go into 8 bit mode which created banding because the panel no longer knew what to do with the 12 bit color data. In some ways my example resembles the compression artifacts found in your examples. but they are not the same, and I was able to get rid of the problem by changing the cable.

EDIT: The moire effects were caused by the camera and not visible on the panel.
What exactly is a marginal cable? Also, there is no such thing as a cable making a display go into 8bit mode. That makes absolutely no sense.
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post #30624 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 11:48 PM
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All this talk about scenes in The Last Jedi has me finally watching the UHD I bought. Are the blacks in the space battles supposed to be that light, or is that the dreaded DV raised black issue? Really not impressed at all so far with this disk.

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post #30625 of 35835 Old 07-02-2018, 11:53 PM
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^that's the directors intent. Your not seeing anything different from the rest of us.
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post #30626 of 35835 Old 07-03-2018, 12:10 AM
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Netflix on ATV has a lot of problems right now. Compression artifacts are everywhere. Something I don't see on webos app.

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post #30627 of 35835 Old 07-03-2018, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Skytrooper View Post
Damn fellas. Im still glad I don't know what banding is. Maybe it pays to be ignorant of things. All I know is that I love my LG.



And PS: I don't want to learn what it is.


This. I know what banding is but after one month of ownership I haven't seen (haven't looked for it either).

To each their own but I personally feel that if I saw banding for five seconds in a movie in a certain scene it's not going to ruin my experience.

Ignorance is bliss in many ways.
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post #30628 of 35835 Old 07-03-2018, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
All this talk about scenes in The Last Jedi has me finally watching the UHD I bought. Are the blacks in the space battles supposed to be that light, or is that the dreaded DV raised black issue? Really not impressed at all so far with this disk.
Oh, dear God, not this again! Use the freakin' search function and you'll see we've been there and done that.
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post #30629 of 35835 Old 07-03-2018, 07:36 AM
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Agreed, this is replicated on the Netflix stream of TLJ across my crappy bedroom LCD and my iPhone X from Netflix. There are no issues off of iTunes 1080p or Vudu 4K/DV, or the 4k/DV disc itself. It's clearly in the source IE the file on Netflix. An easy way to spot this is the source in an upscaled 1080p stream to the look at the edges of what you're calling banding. Besides the clear blocking mosaic structure, the edges are soft from the upscale, clearly not mapped to the display pixel structure in any way.

Netflix's encoding is targeting minimum 5 mb/s speeds for 1080p, which is lower than Apple's targeted minimum 8 mb/s speeds for 1080p, obviously both heavily compressed past a standard Blu-Ray. Netflix is a business, and they are attempting to provide service to a vast majority of Americans with poor broadband connections, vs prioritizing a select few with fast internet and high-end TVs. They're actually really really good at the delicate balancing act to provide decent looking streams that work at these slow speeds and are constantly tweaking their compression, but sometimes, things slip through the cracks. HBO GO has a way worse track record IMO, and almost every program has bad some issues in encoding/compression with dark gradiated scenes.

Honestly, I find it best to accept these flaws much like I accept the compression on Apple Music or Spotify, since it's the price of admission to instant streaming of a huge library of content. If you want to see a 1080p Netflix film or HBO show in better quality your best best is iTunes/Vudu for minimal upgrade, or Blu-Ray / UHD Blu-Ray for maximal upgrade. Intense image processing that some TVs use is just masking what's in the source not improving it. The real shame here is that Disney did not provide the 4K/DV master to Netflix to stream, since that would eliminate many of the issues you see, but they are working on their rumored service and thus crippling all current partners.
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post #30630 of 35835 Old 07-03-2018, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Freeze Time View Post
I wish it didn't bother me or I didn't notice it.






I know it does. That's what I am trying to get across here. I did everything you asked even though I didn't want to because it took me a couple min to do all of the settings sonoftumble suggests but here it is. As you can see, little to no difference. BTW, when I got this notification, I was watching Altered Carbon episode 6 and it's beautiful. No banding at all but other than DV, I get whatever you want to call what is happening in all other sources even some HDR 10 content. Again, this is only The Last Jedi. I've posted pics of other content with this issue. It's not only streaming content.

A lot of that is just bad compression from Netflix, especially the chase scene in the dark. Low light scenes are horrible on streaming compression algorithms.
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