2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 1172 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35131 of 35851 Old 03-11-2019, 06:22 PM
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Question: I tried to watch the new season of Grand Tour on Amazon Prime and the HDR looked completely washed out - very much unlike the previous season. It this an Amazon-specific issue or is this the 50hz/Rec2020 issue? I had assumed it would've been fixed by now in a firmware update?
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post #35132 of 35851 Old 03-11-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevleviathan View Post
Question: I tried to watch the new season of Grand Tour on Amazon Prime and the HDR looked completely washed out - very much unlike the previous season. It this an Amazon-specific issue or is this the 50hz/Rec2020 issue? I had assumed it would've been fixed by now in a firmware update?
It’s the 50hz. Turn off match framerate and it should look fine.
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post #35133 of 35851 Old 03-11-2019, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post
Out of the box it had minimal banding and John did an excellent calibration job. I do have some very mild yellowish tinge on the bottom left corner but it has faded somewhat and it's no big deal. Over the past few months, I've begun to see banding show up on content with certain light background colors. Gray screen tests show a band border in the center of the screen. The band itself is to the left and less obvious but screen to the right of the band line is slightly brighter than it is on the left of the line. It's primarily the line itself that shows up on content with the rest of the band being a bit vague. I've run the pixel refresher several times with some improvement but then it reverts back. I'm also seeing some increased vignetting on the side edges but they have yet to be evident on content. Do I have to live with the banding and decreased uniformity or is there something else I can do? I do have an extended warranty through Square Trade but I'm not sure that they would consider the banding to be severe enough to justify action on their part.
File the claim and see what happens......You tell them you have an issue and do NOT falter from that. Do not agree with them if they say that is normal. You say I have bands on my TV that where once not there and I see them on all content, fix or replace my tv, thank you
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post #35134 of 35851 Old 03-12-2019, 06:49 AM
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Anyone knows if this 5 horizontal straight black lines from one side to other is a problem on c7 ?
must call lg ?i am on warranty.
Thanks
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post #35135 of 35851 Old 03-12-2019, 07:02 AM
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Are you sure that's not image retention from a menu or other static screen you frequent?
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post #35136 of 35851 Old 03-12-2019, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by hakef View Post
Anyone knows if this 5 horizontal straight black lines from one side to other is a problem on c7 ?
must call lg ?i am on warranty.
Thanks
Why not call LG for warranty service?

Do you like the image issue?

Sorry, that is a rhetorical question.

But, seriously, that is not normal.
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post #35137 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 06:15 AM
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Just wanted to pass on my experience with our LG OLED 55C7P burn-in issue. Purchased TV from Best Buy November 2017. Also purchased 2 year Geek Squad Protection Plan. Couple days ago wife asked me if I noticed all the dark marks on the screen. I really didn't notice them. Yesterday BB Geek Squad technician stopped by and condemned our TV due to burn-in. They offered a trade in for a new LG OLED or credit toward any new TV. I am really leary now of OLEDs. Sure glad I had the protection plan.
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post #35138 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 06:25 AM
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Wow that's some heavy burn-in, fascinating that you didn't notice it much earlier.

The news person in the center just like on rtings test and even heavy burn-in from the mute icon. I'm curious about how often did you have the TV muted?
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post #35139 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Wow that's some heavy burn-in, fascinating that you didn't notice it much earlier.

The news person in the center just like on rtings test and even heavy burn-in from the mute icon. I'm curious about how often did you have the TV muted?
Very rarely do we mute TV. If we do want to mute, we turn the volume down to 0. Wonder how folks are liking the Samsung QLED! I may try one of them out.

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post #35140 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 07:11 AM
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It fascinates me that, whenever there's a case of burn in, the impacted user always seems to gravitate towards Samsung's QLED brand of displays as an alternative. Sammy's marketing game is strong.

Really, though, that's over-the-top bad and exhibits all the stereotypical BI case scenarios all at once. Given your glaringly obvious viewing habits, you'd be smart to consider an LED LCD of any make/model for your next display.
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post #35141 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
It fascinates me that, whenever there's a case of burn in, the impacted user always seems to gravitate towards Samsung's QLED brand of displays as an alternative. Sammy's marketing game is strong.

Really, though, that's over-the-top bad and exhibits all the stereotypical BI case scenarios all at once. Given your glaringly obvious viewing habits, you'd be smart to consider an LED LCD of any make/model for your next display.
So, can you say your opinion of Samsung QLEDs? I don't mind trying out something new. But of course I will be purchasing another BB extended warranty. I know they say in general that extended warranties are a waist of money, but it sure has saved my butt for two TVs now from BB. You just never know.

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post #35142 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 07:47 AM
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So, can you say your opinion of Samsung QLEDs? I don't mind trying out something new. But of course I will be purchasing another BB extended warranty. I know they say in general that extended warranties are a waist of money, but it sure has saved my butt for two TVs now from BB. You just never know.
I haven't had the greatest of luck with Samsung products (TVs among them) in the past, so my opinion of their brand has been a bit soured. That said, I have no first hand experience with their current displays, so I can't provide an informed and honest opinion. I was really just commenting on the duality of the market place in many consumers eyes. It's interesting to me that so many folks leap to Sammy's QLED model LED Tv's after being burned by Burn In on their OLED. I meant no disrespect in my post.

...but I'd still reccommend looking at LED displays for you.
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post #35143 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
I haven't had the greatest of luck with Samsung products (TVs among them) in the past, so my opinion of their brand has been a bit soured. That said, I have no first hand experience with their current displays, so I can't provide an informed and honest opinion. I was really just commenting on the duality of the market place in many consumers eyes. It's interesting to me that so many folks leap to Sammy's QLED model LED Tv's after being burned by Burn In on their OLED. I meant no disrespect in my post.

...but I'd still reccommend looking at LED displays for you.
OK, thanks

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post #35144 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The 7 series also falls back to significantly dimming mid-tones, lowering average picture level, in the presence of spectral highlights.
I use and HDFury to override the static metadata to values like 600 nits for Max luminance and MaxCLL.
This technique would also fix game mode.

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Which Fury product do you use?

Does injecting "fake" meta data mean that some highlights get blown out or does the curve just work differently?

For some reason, I thought the LG actually ignored meta data when one uses the dynamic contrast Min setting, and just analyzes picture content. I'm not saying it does it "right" but that injecting meta data would have no impact, if that is the case.

Did I misunderstand?
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post #35145 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 08:07 AM
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Just wanted to pass on my experience with our LG OLED 55C7P burn-in issue. Purchased TV from Best Buy November 2017. Also purchased 2 year Geek Squad Protection Plan. Couple days ago wife asked me if I noticed all the dark marks on the screen. I really didn't notice them. Yesterday BB Geek Squad technician stopped by and condemned our TV due to burn-in. They offered a trade in for a new LG OLED or credit toward any new TV. I am really leary now of OLEDs. Sure glad I had the protection plan.
What is dish? It looks as if the TV spent its life on whatever that is.

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post #35146 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 08:20 AM
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What is dish? It looks as if the TV spent its life on whatever that is.
The dish is seen in the DISH TV guide and the DVR listing. We never leave those screens on.
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post #35147 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 08:35 AM
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Which Fury product do you use?

Does injecting "fake" meta data mean that some highlights get blown out or does the curve just work differently?

It would probably follow their 1000 nit curve, where stuff in the 700-1000 nit range would start to clip but the rest of the picture sticks closely to the standard EOTF curve for everything below 700 nits. LG's 4000 nit curve is much worse and is too dim taking the punch out of HDR.



The problem with LG's method on the 7 series is it looks at the max mastering display luminance which doesn't always correlate to the film. The best example being something like Goodfellas, which LG treats as a 4000 nit movie which dims the entire picture when nothing in the film gets out of the 200 nit range.


So while you might have to deal with some clipping on movies that actually exceed 1000 nits, you're still going to get a better picture for 95% of the movie because those high nit scenes are usually only a few seconds long. DC low is pretty good but comes with some problems like raising the brightness where it shouldn't in dark scenes.
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post #35148 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 08:38 AM
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The dish is seen in the DISH TV guide and the DVR listing. We never leave those screens on.
Even if not left there I guess overall the TV does spend a fair amount of time showing it. And it's bright red which is not good apparently.
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post #35149 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Which Fury product do you use?

Does injecting "fake" meta data mean that some highlights get blown out or does the curve just work differently?

For some reason, I thought the LG actually ignored meta data when one uses the dynamic contrast Min setting, and just analyzes picture content. I'm not saying it does it "right" but that injecting meta data would have no impact, if that is the case.

Did I misunderstand?
The metadata on the disk is not reliable. Content "Mastered" on a 4000 nit display may be not be substantially different from content mastered on a 1000 nit display but the C7 will use a different base tone curve. Dynamic Contrast = Low improves PQ-EOTF tracking by analyzing this frame by frame. However, in the presence of spectral highlights, the underlying tone-mapping curve seems to be based on the static metadata.

LG does not ignore the metadata and this is easily proved by loading the Sony/Columbia disk and pressing 7669 (I think) to bring up HDR patterns with 10000 nit static metadata.
The 100 nits ramp includes a small smooth ramp on the bottom. It is immediately obvious that 100 nits is only a mid-tone, even when dynamic tone-mapping engaged.
I have used the Vertex 2 to override the static metadata and the change on this and the other high nit screens are obvious.

LG dynamic tone mapping restores the APL of most content but when there are spectral highlights reduces the APL to show more detail in the highlights.
One interesting aspect is that Batman V Superman lightning scenes do indeed show more detail in bright areas but lose detail in mid and low lighted scenes, even with dynamic tone-mapping engaged.
More importantly, the brightness and impact of the flashes are also reduced. IMO, this actually lessens the impact of these scenes.
I much prefer watching this title with the static meta data overridden.

Dolby Vision has this figured out in that DV specifies the tone-mapping curve (LG and others cannot alter it) and the content is mastered to preserve APL while not blowing out most highlights.

I am using an HDFury Vertex to override the static metadata and have left dynamic tone-mapping on. It's a preference, but this results in the a high APL on low/mid tone scenes and some reduction APL on bright scenes.

BTW, HDR10+ does not fix any problems associated from applying an overly aggressive tone-mapping curve because that is under control of the TV/Display manufacturer.
Any display that alters APL 100 nits or lower based on static or dynamic metadata is grossly inaccurate. The PQ-EOTF is an absolute scale.
This is actually worse than ABL because, it dims the average picture level when the display is capable of displaying it a full luminance.
It's mind-numbingly dumb.

The Vertex can be used for greater control of tone-mapping (and the fallback curve). I am not a gamer, but this should solve the issue of games being too dark.

The new Panasonic's UHD layers have tone-mapping controls which also replace the disk metadata with fixed values.
The HDFury Vertex and other new HDFury products can correct overly dimmed issues that are related to tone-mapping for all HDR10 sources.

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post #35150 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 08:55 AM
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@RichB

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

This piece is disappointing: "However, in the presence of spectral highlights, the underlying tone-mapping curve seems to be based on the static metadata."

For some reason I thought that LG was ignoring meta data always -- or at least always when in Low Dynamic Contrast mode. You describe an easy way to see that it is not.

My primary source is an ATV4K. I need to think about whether to force all content to be output as Dolby Vision as a workaround. Or just toggle that setting when content originates as HDR10. (I would rather NOT output SDR as DV.)

HDFury makes cool products. I have an original Vertex for my projector which enables advanced automation and invoking of special gamma curves for HDR content. But I'm not thrilled about buying another Fury product for my living room. I wonder: If you use a Fury product to inject metadata, does it impact SDR content at all?
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post #35151 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:11 AM
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We should all just keeping telling LG to update the tone curve on the 7 series so it's similar to the 8 series and this wouldn't be a problem. Think it will work?




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post #35152 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:15 AM
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I'm game. What's the best avenue?
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post #35153 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by charlesrshell View Post
Just wanted to pass on my experience with our LG OLED 55C7P burn-in issue. Purchased TV from Best Buy November 2017. Also purchased 2 year Geek Squad Protection Plan. Couple days ago wife asked me if I noticed all the dark marks on the screen. I really didn't notice them. Yesterday BB Geek Squad technician stopped by and condemned our TV due to burn-in. They offered a trade in for a new LG OLED or credit toward any new TV. I am really leary now of OLEDs. Sure glad I had the protection plan.
Please add this to the burn in thread too. It would be good to capture the number of hours on the panel as well before you get rid of it. Folks will want other details, to include OLED light, brightness, and contrast settings (maybe others too?)

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post #35154 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:37 AM
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Please add this to the burn in thread too. It would be good to capture the number of hours on the panel as well before you get rid of it. Folks will want other details, to include OLED light, brightness, and contrast settings (maybe others too?)

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Superdog, can you please provide a link to that burn-in thread. Also, is that thread specific to LG OLED in general, to the LG OLED 2017 model year, etc? Thanks!
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post #35155 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:41 AM
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@RichB

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

This piece is disappointing: "However, in the presence of spectral highlights, the underlying tone-mapping curve seems to be based on the static metadata."

For some reason I thought that LG was ignoring meta data always -- or at least always when in Low Dynamic Contrast mode. You describe an easy way to see that it is not.

My primary source is an ATV4K. I need to think about whether to force all content to be output as Dolby Vision as a workaround. Or just toggle that setting when content originates as HDR10. (I would rather NOT output SDR as DV.)

HDFury makes cool products. I have an original Vertex for my projector which enables advanced automation and invoking of special gamma curves for HDR content. But I'm not thrilled about buying another Fury product for my living room. I wonder: If you use a Fury product to inject metadata, does it impact SDR content at all?

I correct my post, the Vertex provides the override function and newer products as well.


Dolby Vision conversion might be a good solution but neither the ATV4K nor Oppo UDP-20x have an option to use DV for HDR10 content only.
Engaging the mode, also converts SDR to DV that, IMO, looks terrible.


The Vertex (and others) allow for overriding the static metadata for HDR10 content only. All others are left alone.


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post #35156 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:44 AM
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Superdog, can you please provide a link to that burn-in thread. Also, is that thread specific to LG OLED in general, to the LG OLED 2017 model year, etc? Thanks!
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...3&share_type=t

Not specific to 2017 models.

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post #35157 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:45 AM
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I'm game. What's the best avenue?

They already said they didn't consider the dimmer picture to be a problem when people were upset about the Game Mode setting so I think it's a lost cause unfortunately.
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post #35158 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I correct my post, the Vertex provides the override function and newer products as well.


Dolby Vision conversion might be a good solution but neither the ATV4K nor Oppo UDP-20x have an option to use DV for HDR10 content only.
Engaging the mode, also converts SDR to DV that, IMO, looks terrible.


The Vertex (and others) allow for overriding the static metadata for HDR10 content only. All others are left alone.


- Rich


Interesting. Im guessing one couldn't do this with the 99 dollar Integral but need to step up to the $250 unit... https://www.hdfury.com/product/integ...60-420-300mhz/
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post #35159 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 09:55 AM
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They already said they didn't consider the dimmer picture to be a problem when people were upset about the Game Mode setting so I think it's a lost cause unfortunately.
Could be but I'm game to try.
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post #35160 of 35851 Old 03-13-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bacon_67 View Post
About to hit 3000 hours and have zero technical issues as well.


My biggest gripe remains LG's terrible approach to tone mapping 4000nit content. I really hope they update the TV to the 8 series approach to tone mapping, but I'm starting to doubt that will ever happen. I would buy the 9 series, but I really can't justify it since the jump probably won't be huge and I'm better off just waiting for the next big OLED breakthrough.



Hopefully more devices allow you to set max nit level and/or allow you to send out your own metadata to the TV. I'm considering buying an HDFury Linker, but it kind of seems like a hassle.
I agree with you. This is my #1 gripe, more than motion processing or uniformity. People associate HDR with bright vivid picture. I associate HDR with lower APL and loss of shadow details. It gets to the point that I enjoy 4k SDR more than HDR. HDR is great for stuff like Planet Earth but for a lot of TV and movies, especially on Netflix, it just makes things that are already dark too dark. I can't appreciate the picture if I can't SEE the picture.

Have a look at Vincent Teoh's review of Panasonic's HDR optimiser. I would buy their UHD player just for that feature if it weren't $1000 lol.
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