2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 1225 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36721 of 36895 Old 12-17-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
I would have agreed with the consensus that you don't need to worry at all, but then @suarsg just posted a detailed speculation that the most recent firmware update fundamentally changed how the set responds to HDR EOTF so I guess the safe answer is to turn off auto updates after calibration and don't update unless it solves a problem you have and are willing to risk it impacting your calibration?
That isn't going to make a difference when it comes to hdr calibration.

These sets are too unstable with HDR content to do much more than 2 pt grayscale with any kind of accuracy.

Current TVs: 77" LG C9, 65" LG B7A, 55" TCL R625, 65” GT50 Plasma
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post #36722 of 36895 Old 12-17-2019, 06:07 PM
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It's just too old at this point.
"Too old"...

I wish it wasn't the case that we are now expected to treat our TV's like phones - getting the new model every year. I'm not Logan Roy.
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post #36723 of 36895 Old 12-17-2019, 06:16 PM
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"Too old"...



I wish it wasn't the case that we are now expected to treat our TV's like phones - getting the new model every year. I'm not Logan Roy.
You don't have to but just know the engineers at LG aren't working on it unless they have to.

They are likely finishing up the work on the 2020 models and are already on to working on the 2021+ stuff.

By the time the TVs hit the street they are mostly in maintenance mode.

Common parts of WebOS may continue to be updated but that's mostly smart TV stuff - not operational TV code.

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post #36724 of 36895 Old 12-17-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
You don't have to but just know the engineers at LG aren't working on it unless they have to.

They are likely finishing up the work on the 2020 models and are already on to working on the 2021+ stuff.

By the time the TVs hit the street they are mostly in maintenance mode.

Common parts of WebOS may continue to be updated but that's mostly smart TV stuff - not operational TV code.
I completely understand this. I just don't agree with the approach from a business standpoint.

Like I have said before, even our old phones get 'operational' updates that the newer phone models get. TV's are not much different in this regard, in fact, much less complicated in many ways.

This is something they should support for premium devices like this.
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post #36725 of 36895 Old 12-17-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by themcbrooms View Post
I completely understand this. I just don't agree with the approach from a business standpoint.



Like I have said before, even our old phones get 'operational' updates that the newer phone models get. TV's are not much different in this regard, in fact, much less complicated in many ways.



This is something they should support for premium devices like this.


These devices are not that premium anymore!
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post #36726 of 36895 Old 12-17-2019, 07:41 PM
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it seems unlikely they would do that now. They have been pretty parsimonious with updating features.
While I agree, I can tell you that I had calibrated my TV back in 2017 and it was fine. This year I noticed some weird behavior and started "investigating". I've confirmed it with other 2017 models from friends and it's not just my TV. The 1000nits issue for example is also not present on 2018 and 2019 models but on all 2017 models. I also wrote R.Masciola and he saw the same change in the 1000nits tonemapping curve on his 2017 model on the test bench.
And as far as MaxCLL-tracking goes, they most definitely have that now so it's obvious they're not going out of their way to keep new features away from us. I guess they wanted to mainstream their firmware so we got lucky.

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My guess is that some of our top calibrators who see these sets in the field all the time such as @D-Nice would have already noticed this on their latest tune up gigs.
I tried starting a discussion over at the 2017 calibration thread in the past few weeks but pretty much all the people with the proper knowledge have abandoned that thread. You can't buy 2017 models anymore and a calibration is rather expensive, so I don't think they do these TVs much anymore.
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post #36727 of 36895 Old 12-17-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
That isn't going to make a difference when it comes to hdr calibration.

These sets are too unstable with HDR content to do much more than 2 pt grayscale with any kind of accuracy.
I was more concerned with EOTF and tone mapping than with grayscale, which by all accounts has not been altered with the recent firmware.

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Originally Posted by themcbrooms View Post
I completely understand this. I just don't agree with the approach from a business standpoint.

Like I have said before, even our old phones get 'operational' updates that the newer phone models get. TV's are not much different in this regard, in fact, much less complicated in many ways.

This is something they should support for premium devices like this.
Other than maybe Game Mode (I haven't kept up on that one since I don't use it) there isn't much left to fix, is there? Especially if we really got the improved tone mapping on the 2017 models that the later models have.

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While I agree, I can tell you that I had calibrated my TV back in 2017 and it was fine. This year I noticed some weird behavior and started "investigating". I've confirmed it with other 2017 models from friends and it's not just my TV. The 1000nits issue for example is also not present on 2018 and 2019 models but on all 2017 models. I also wrote R.Masciola and he saw the same change in the 1000nits tonemapping curve on his 2017 model on the test bench.
And as far as MaxCLL-tracking goes, they most definitely have that now so it's obvious they're not going out of their way to keep new features away from us. I guess they wanted to mainstream their firmware so we got lucky.

I tried starting a discussion over at the 2017 calibration thread in the past few weeks but pretty much all the people with the proper knowledge have abandoned that thread. You can't buy 2017 models anymore and a calibration is rather expensive, so I don't think they do these TVs much anymore.
Interesting. Some folks get touch ups on a regular basis -- but these TVs are so stable, doing an annual touch up doesn't seem needed, unlike with a projector if one uses it a lot, so I guess it may be that people that have a 2017 set and have had it calibrated probably did it in the first year of service.....so there are few people getting them calibrated now, as you say, and so most calibrators aren't seeing the latest firmware.

But you are saying that @mascior has confirmed the recent change in tone mapping on the 2017 LG OLEDs?
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post #36728 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
But you are saying that @mascior has confirmed the recent change in tone mapping on the 2017 LG OLEDs?
I was referring to the 1000nits tonemapping curve change in behavior. He confirmed this is new and wasn't the case prior and apparently there was a change in PQ-EOTF tracking a few firmwares back on 2017 models. I haven't talked to him about the (apparent?) change in Active HDR/DTM nor about MaxCLL tracking.

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post #36729 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 10:17 AM
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Just focusing on if a calibration will be affected by any firmware update, based on what jrref has said in the past, it's pretty safe to say that it won't be affected.
Maybe on that said update, but every update is different. Be careful out there.
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post #36730 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 10:38 AM
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I hope some of you maybe could help with what is going on here.

I been keeping track of how many hours my set have been running in the In-Start menu since I wan't to have it pro calibrated and suddenly I noticed the "Adjust White balance: NG(0)" which I'm 100% sure was "OK" earlier, anybody know how to fix this?

Any help is much appreciated.
coz2001,did you find a solution,because i have the very same problem on my LG B7v.If you found it,please be so kind and contact me on PM to tell me a solution.
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post #36731 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 12:33 PM
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Other than maybe Game Mode (I haven't kept up on that one since I don't use it) there isn't much left to fix, is there? Especially if we really got the improved tone mapping on the 2017 models that the later models have.

We didn't really get improved tone mapping though, since the image is still wait too dim due to the EOTF under tracking for 4000nit content, making DTM necessary for HDR material.
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post #36732 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 12:49 PM
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We didn't really get improved tone mapping though, since the image is still wait too dim due to the EOTF under tracking for 4000nit content, making DTM necessary for HDR material.
Like I told you before - the 2017 models now track MaxCLL. So if MaxCLL is present (and lower than the 4000nits mastering data, as is the case for most 4000nits movies) it isn't unnecessarily dim anymore. That's the same "fix" as on 2018 and 2019 models. If you still have issues, then you need to check wether your player actually sends correct and complete HDR metadata. Most "boxes" don't do that, including the AppleTV (it only sends correct metadata for content from its own store).

So, unless 2018 and 2019 models have an adjusted curve (i.e. they start rolling off later for every curve) then it's gonna look pretty much the same (calibrations and peak brightness aside). I'm not following 2018/2019 models all too much but I don't think they changed the roll-off, did they?

Last edited by suarsg; 12-18-2019 at 12:54 PM.
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post #36733 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Like I told you before - the 2017 models now track MaxCLL. So if MaxCLL is present (and lower than the 4000nits mastering data, as is the case for most 4000nits movies) it isn't unnecessarily dim anymore. That's the same "fix" as on 2018 and 2019 models. If you still have issues, then you need to check wether your player actually sends correct and complete HDR metadata. Most "boxes" don't do that, including the AppleTV (it only sends correct metadata for content from its own store).

So, unless 2018 and 2019 models have an adjusted curve (i.e. they start rolling off later for every curve) then it's gonna look pretty much the same (calibrations and peak brightness aside). I'm not following 2018/2019 models all too much but I don't think they changed the roll-off, did they?

Well, it seems odd that it would apply the dim tone curve to content with no metadata still, like games. And the majority of streaming content in HDR must have no metadata, because it's also dim without dynamic tone mapping...
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post #36734 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 02:53 PM
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Any tips on my problem welcomed..


- C7 stopped streaming ...
- Tried to update firmware, was informed set was up to date....
- 'Reset to Initial Settings' from the general menu...
- Now the TV turns on from stand-by and goes straight to black-screen with spinning balls...

TV is eighteen months old, never skipped a beat. Any suggestions what to do next?

LG say my issue is 'probably' a main board failure, and happy to charge me £400 to pick up and fix. Asked how they can be certain the £400 work will fix the issue and they were pretty vague. Oh, and the fix only carries a three-month warranty.

This, for a unit that was manufactured Feb-18. I am going fairly crazy at how little support they are prepared to provide.

Looking to get a chargeback through my credit card company now. May try buying a replacement main board through ebay (£130) and do the job myself. Looks fairly easy to replace?
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post #36735 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 03:08 PM
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Well, it seems odd that it would apply the dim tone curve to content with no metadata still, like games.
Yes, because the TV considers "no metadata = 4000 nits". That's why DTM is so useful for games. Since we don't have DTM in Game Mode, the picture will still be dim. Or what did you mean?

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And the majority of streaming content in HDR must have no metadata, because it's also dim without dynamic tone mapping...
I think your conclusion is wrong in thinking DTM should never brighten the picture. What would be the purpose of DTM on 2018/2019 models then, if they have supposedly better tracking? Check any review and you'll see DTM can brighten up the picture, even on <1000nits content on 2019 models.
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post #36736 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 04:46 PM
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Yes, because the TV considers "no metadata = 4000 nits". That's why DTM is so useful for games. Since we don't have DTM in Game Mode, the picture will still be dim. Or what did you mean?


I think your conclusion is wrong in thinking DTM should never brighten the picture. What would be the purpose of DTM on 2018/2019 models then, if they have supposedly better tracking? Check any review and you'll see DTM can brighten up the picture, even on <1000nits content on 2019 models.
The 8 and 9 series don’t have a dim picture with no metadata though, so why would LG alter the 7 series tone mapping in one instance but not the other?

I’m not saying DTM should never brighten the picture, ok but saying it does for nearly all streaming content I’ve tried, meaning there’s either no metadata or lg is still applying a dim tone curve for 4000 nit content.
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post #36737 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 05:18 PM
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LG say my issue is 'probably' a main board failure, and happy to charge me £400 to pick up and fix. Asked how they can be certain the £400 work will fix the issue and they were pretty vague. Oh, and the fix only carries a three-month warranty.
...
May try buying a replacement main board through ebay (£130) and do the job myself. Looks fairly easy to replace?
I haven’t seen it done on an LG OLED. But I suspect the architecture is similar to the control boards in LED LCD flat panel TVs where from what I’ve seen it’s a matter of taking the back off, unhooking a few cables to the old board, unscrewing it, and putting the new one in. In fact, when technicians can’t diagnose a problem, they just replace the two or three boards on an LCD LED one at a time and if none solve the problem “then it’s the panel” and they recommend replacing the TV..... but a video search online will probably produce a complete walk through.

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Well, it seems odd that it would apply the dim tone curve to content with no metadata still, like games. And the majority of streaming content in HDR must have no metadata, because it's also dim without dynamic tone mapping...
I thought the point was that the new dynamic tone curve is like the 2018/19 models and doesn’t get as dim, ie, tracks PQ EOTF more closely up to 100nits instead of rolling off before 100nits, so the bulk of content looks right, in this case less dim, squeezing the highlights into a narrower range (which is a trade off most people agree is the right compromise)?
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post #36738 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 05:23 PM
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The 8 and 9 series don’t have a dim picture with no metadata though, so why would LG alter the 7 series tone mapping in one instance but not the other?
I thought the assertion is that they made it work just like the 8 and 9 series with the latest firmware?
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post #36739 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 05:48 PM
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I thought the assertion is that they made it work just like the 8 and 9 series with the latest firmware?
They didn’t.
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post #36740 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 06:09 PM
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2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk)

There is nothing wrong with how the 2017 models currently handle it, unless you use game mode...and there is no legitimate reason to use game mode. Someone will counter with “input lag,” but any noticeable reduction in input lag you claim to personally experience is in essence a placebo effect. Can it be measured? Yes. Can you legitimately notice a discernible difference? You wish. It would justify the argument. Even if you could...it’s a video game. Are you a professional gamer whose income relies upon a lack of input lag? If not, get a grip.

If someone has invested in a professional calibration, or has access to the that caliber of equipment, and has the tools the necessary to measure true input lag...I’ll listen to your argument. Otherwise? No thank you. If you are sharing settings or eyeballing it while wanting to claim to have some high degree of certainty on the matter, stop fooling yourself.
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Yeah, no reason to use game mode. No idea why LG or any manufacturer has game mode as an option. They’re the crazy ones!!!
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post #36742 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 07:21 PM
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Yeah, no reason to use game mode. No idea why LG or any manufacturer has game mode as an option. They’re the crazy ones!!!


Marketing. For lemmings. Gotta mirror? It’s the same reason a variety of other marketing buzz words are useful when selling consumer electronics.
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post #36743 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 07:26 PM
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Uh huh. Put game mode and ISF expert mode in front of me and I’ll give you $1000 if I can’t tell the difference. I have to assume anyone that can’t tell the difference doesn’t play games regularly or is like 80 years old.
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post #36744 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 08:34 PM
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I’ll let others debate game mode. I know people that game and care about i put lag and seem to notice the difference between 15ms and 80ms.

I don’t game so I just dial in any sync issues via the sync adjustment on the receiver if needed and I’m good to go.

But the debate makes me wonder whether game mode is the only mode that still has an EOTF problem versus the later models? Here is what Vincent found in the 7 versus 8 series in Game Mode only.
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post #36745 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacon_67 View Post
The 8 and 9 series don’t have a dim picture with no metadata though, so why would LG alter the 7 series tone mapping in one instance but not the other?
Again, you're reaching conclusions that lack connection. I explicitly said, the 2017 models treat "no content" equal to "4000 nits" and they only added MaxCLL tracking (this is a fact!) which, if it's lower than that 4000 MaxMDL value, will result in a brighter tone curve. You keep throwing MaxMDL, MaxCLL, and DTM all into one issue.
One last time: there's three things LG changed with 2018 models to help with a dim picture for high luminance content:
1) MaxCLL-based tracking
2) later roll-off on high luminance tonemapping curves (e.g. 4000nits)
3) DTM in Game Mode (irrelevant for movies)
They gave us the first change with an update. So for every 4000nits movie that had a smaller MaxCLL value, the picture is not as dim as it used to be for us (this can be measured and I did with actual equipment but the change is so big it's noticable by eye). This is actually the majority of 4000nits movies where this case applies.
For movies that have a high MaxCLL (or no MaxCLL, like games) their number 2 change is what improved the dim picture. We didn't get that.

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nearly all streaming content I’ve tried, meaning there’s either no metadata or lg is still applying a dim tone curve for 4000 nit content.
Yeah, I'm not gonna write the same answer to you for a 4th time trying to explain it to you. It seems like you misread everything on purpose and then just throw together some words in response. It's getting kind of tiresome.

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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
I thought the point was that the new dynamic tone curve is like the 2018/19 models and doesn’t get as dim, ie, tracks PQ EOTF more closely up to 100nits instead of rolling off before 100nits, so the bulk of content looks right, in this case less dim, squeezing the highlights into a narrower range
Please re-read my response I never claimed anything about a change in roll-off. The 4000nits curve still begins its roll-off way too soon (with DTM off), unless there's MaxCLL data indicating a lower value, in which case it will use another tone curve (e.g. the 1000nits one).
And regarding DTM, I explicitly said this was just a suspicion - they might have made it boost shadows not that much in certain instances - something Vincent Teoh mentioned in his review. A change in PQ EOTF tracking is pretty much confirmed (see R.Masciola's quote) and there's clearly a change in DTM behavior as well. If it's actually matching the behavior of 2018/2019 is unclear, someone with more experience with DTM and a 2018/19 TV would need to do some testing. But the tone mapping curves for a specific luminances are definitely not like on the 2018/19 models.

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there is no legitimate reason to use game mode. Someone will counter with “input lag,” but any noticeable reduction in input lag you claim to personally experience is in essence a placebo effect. Can it be measured? Yes. Can you legitimately notice a discernible difference? You wish.
uhhh... I play maybe 3 games a year, so I'm really just a casual gamer, if anything. And using either a controller or a mouse, you can ABSOLUTELY tell the difference between Game Mode on and off. Especially with a mouse. Even just moving the mouse pointer on your screen will make it apparent, lol. This is very noticable when gaming and is no fun.
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post #36746 of 36895 Old 12-18-2019, 10:15 PM
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That’s interesting. Maybe I’ll use an HDFury to put 1000maxcll meta data into all my content to invoke the best curve.
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post #36747 of 36895 Old 12-19-2019, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post
There is nothing wrong with how the 2017 models currently handle it, unless you use game mode...and there is no legitimate reason to use game mode. Someone will counter with “input lag,” but any noticeable reduction in input lag you claim to personally experience is in essence a placebo effect. Can it be measured? Yes. Can you legitimately notice a discernible difference? You wish. It would justify the argument. Even if you could...it’s a video game. Are you a professional gamer whose income relies upon a lack of input lag? If not, get a grip.

If someone has invested in a professional calibration, or has access to the that caliber of equipment, and has the tools the necessary to measure true input lag...I’ll listen to your argument. Otherwise? No thank you. If you are sharing settings or eyeballing it while wanting to claim to have some high degree of certainty on the matter, stop fooling yourself.
As a long time engineer I know what a 50ms difference is. I also have an AVR/CEC setup that doesn't always recognize when the Xbox comes on vs. the Oppo. The difference between game mode and technicolor expert is no cursing vs 10 word curse strings that would make a sailor blush. No placebo effect here, sometimes I start playing in game mode other times in TE mode. However, is it just input latency? Perhaps not. But something is making characters in Destiny more 'floaty' and hence slower to respond, and not just in high activity scenes. Same with Forza; car control at 9/10ths is vastly different in game mode vs TE mode; off the track vs perfect cornering.
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post #36748 of 36895 Old 12-19-2019, 07:41 AM
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I just subscribed to Amazon Prime. I was pleased to see that 4K content was available. I watched some SciFi TV series supposedly touted as in 4K it came on and the HDR bug lit up on the screen but the resolution at the bottom stated it was only 1080P. I do not know how to make that information re appear, anyone? Is there an info button to view this information? Also is anyone receiving Amazon programming in 4K or is this still very much a work in progress?
The program did look excellent and way better than 1080i cable, too bad the cable provider does not spend a few bucks to achieve this type of picture quality in our area.
I have the LG hardwired to a upgraded internet switch and we are subscribed to the fastest internet signal available from our ISP.
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post #36749 of 36895 Old 12-19-2019, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Again, you're reaching conclusions that lack connection. I explicitly said, the 2017 models treat "no content" equal to "4000 nits" and they only added MaxCLL tracking (this is a fact!) which, if it's lower than that 4000 MaxMDL value, will result in a brighter tone curve. You keep throwing MaxMDL, MaxCLL, and DTM all into one issue.
One last time: there's three things LG changed with 2018 models to help with a dim picture for high luminance content:
1) MaxCLL-based tracking
2) later roll-off on high luminance tonemapping curves (e.g. 4000nits)
3) DTM in Game Mode (irrelevant for movies)
They gave us the first change with an update. So for every 4000nits movie that had a smaller MaxCLL value, the picture is not as dim as it used to be for us (this can be measured and I did with actual equipment but the change is so big it's noticable by eye). This is actually the majority of 4000nits movies where this case applies.
For movies that have a high MaxCLL (or no MaxCLL, like games) their number 2 change is what improved the dim picture. We didn't get that.

I get it, I'm just wondering if there is a piece of content on Netflix or other streaming service that has a MaxMDL of 4000 nits and a lower MaxCLL so it doesn't under track the EOTF so early. I think you said Ant-Man, but the Disney+ version is really dim like most of Netflix content, so I'm wondering if Netflix/Disney don't include any or all metadata from physical discs.
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post #36750 of 36895 Old 12-19-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2000 View Post
I just subscribed to Amazon Prime. I was pleased to see that 4K content was available. I watched some SciFi TV series supposedly touted as in 4K it came on and the HDR bug lit up on the screen but the resolution at the bottom stated it was only 1080P. I do not know how to make that information re appear, anyone? Is there an info button to view this information? Also is anyone receiving Amazon programming in 4K or is this still very much a work in progress?
The program did look excellent and way better than 1080i cable, too bad the cable provider does not spend a few bucks to achieve this type of picture quality in our area.
I have the LG hardwired to a upgraded internet switch and we are subscribed to the fastest internet signal available from our ISP.
The stream usually starts at 1080p but if you check after less than a minute it should be spooled up to 4K. Pausing the content should confirm the status on the bottom of the screen.
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