2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 48 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1411 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackvette94 View Post
Thanks

As for deciding between the Sony and the C7, I would say if your very sensitive for input lag then go with the C7 as it is the lowest lag tv you can get right now for all resolutions and 4:4:4.

I haven't seen the Sony yet but I have zero doubt it looks awesome too but the lag numbers don't lie and if gaming is your number one priority I would recommend the C7 because of the lower lag. Playing 60hz or 120hz gaming on the C7 vs the Sony wont be any different motion wise unless you turn on BFI on the Sony but then you get higher lag and native 120hz input would be the way to go imho if your using a pc for games
If the fury upscaler+leo bodnar method reliable then the 4k input lag is 29ms with the A1, the TV recognized the signal as 4k so it should be legit .

Not the input lag is the deciding factor, it's the isf picture mode with low lag and the price .
My usage would look like this : 80% gaming , 10% TV shows, 10% movies

Reading your gaming experience with C7 makes me think , tough decision
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post #1412 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 08:33 AM
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What gamma are you guys using on your 2017 OLED? And why?
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post #1413 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 08:57 AM
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Question

Hello!

How does near-black performance compare with 2015 and 2016 models?
(Vignetting, vertical banding, posterization, shadow details...as for me, near-black performance was one of the main drawbacks of former models and improvements between 2015 and 2016 were far from solving the issue.)

Same question with Sony OLED.

Aside from the reflections not being 'pinkish' anymore, has the daylight performance improved?
(Deeper black in daylight, less reflections?)

Is there any chance we get VRR Game Mode by firmware update?

How does tone mapping of HDR content copare with 2015 and 2016 models?
(Especially form game - PS4Pro - and Netflix content.)

Many thanks in advance!

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post #1414 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Invincible11111 View Post
I don't think you are obsessed or picky. This TV is expensive and for most people they want to be happy with it for atleast 3-4 years and then to have banding is annoying, once it's discovered it's hard to convince the eyes to look away from where the banding is in certain scenes. However, i also think you made the right decision buying now. There's no point waiting and waiting and it's not like banding is a new problem, it's been around for a long time with plasmas and LCDs too and i'm certain it will still be a problem in a couple of years sadly. Just hope your panel improves or that you can get a better one.
No question, however, ever TV out there now usually has some form of screen uniformity issues. Spend 2 Mil on a car and you will find flaws.....
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post #1415 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackvette94 View Post
Thanks
Playing 60hz or 120hz gaming on the C7 vs the Sony wont be any different motion wise unless you turn on BFI on the Sony but then you get higher lag and native 120hz input would be the way to go imho if your using a pc for games
I don't think anyone has measured lag with BFI turned on. In theory there should not be any additional lag since it's not interpolation. I don't think there was any additional lag on any of Sony's LCD models with BFI/Impulse but LCD results don't necessarily translate to OLED due to how BFI was implemented (independent backlight strobe vs. panel refresh with black pixels). Someone with a Bodnar needs to test it.

Assuming no extra lag, BFI is huge for console gamers since they can't do 120Hz.
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post #1416 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
I don't think anyone has measured lag with BFI turned on. In theory there should not be any additional lag since it's not interpolation. I don't think there was any additional lag on any of Sony's LCD models with BFI/Impulse but LCD results don't necessarily translate to OLED due to how BFI was implemented (independent backlight strobe vs. panel refresh with black pixels). Someone with a Bodnar needs to test it.

Assuming no extra lag, BFI is huge for console gamers since they can't do 120Hz.
BFI is a nice feature that I would like to see on LG OLED TV sets, but I don't think it would be such a huge addition for console gaming.

Most 'modern' console games use motion blur that, in most cases, cannot be disabled.
Thus, if it might increase perceived sharpness of moving objects (and may also make motion blur effect artefacts easier to spot), BFI would probably not offer the 'extra sharp moving picture' you could expect.

With 30fps games the use of BFI may also result in increased 'multiple images ghosting'.
(Because the same picture is displayed several times but BFI decreases the blur due to your ocular movements, so it makes it more obvious than with a sample&hold display.)

Finally, you might loose a lot of brightness with BFI...while more and more console games benefit from HDR.

From my point of view, BFI is a nicer addition for SDR 50 or 60fps videos, or for PC gaming.
And it also requires some headroom in terms of brightness capability that some LCD may have, not OLED (at least for the moment), at least in you're not a dim lit room.
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post #1417 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 11:47 AM
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Yes assplats please do. I am interested to see what you'll get with the leo bodnar. Is yours equipped to make a scan at 4k resolution? It seems the flatpanelshd review said their leo bodnar missed some add-on on it so they only measured the 1080p input lag
In order to do 4K, I would need an upscaler (that's what they we're referring to). Technically my Denon receiver does, but I do not know if it adds any input lag. One thing I considered is getting the HDFury Linker. This would be able to upscale any 1080p gaming sources to 4K, which would then lower the A1E's input lag! Might be a decent workaround for gaming devices that do not upscale for you. It would also the use of the Leo Bodnar to input lag test 4K.
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post #1418 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by assplats View Post
In order to do 4K, I would need an upscaler (that's what they we're referring to). Technically my Denon receiver does, but I do not know if it adds any input lag. One thing I considered is getting the HDFury Linker. This would be able to upscale any 1080p gaming sources to 4K, which would then lower the A1E's input lag! Might be a decent workaround for gaming devices that do not upscale for you. It would also the use of the Leo Bodnar to input lag test 4K.
Someone over at Neogaf said that Leo Bodnar is working on a 4k input lag tester. That will be the most reliable I guess, hopefully it's reliable with the Fury upscaler too, the TV clearly recognizes the 4K signal so the under 30ms should be real result for the X1 equipped Sonys

So with PS4 Pro, Xbox One S or PC the input lag advantage for the C7 is negligible. If you can't run things at 4K then the C7 is a clear choice
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post #1419 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fatallerror View Post
Someone over at Neogaf said that Leo Bodnar is working on a 4k input lag tester. That will be the most reliable I guess, hopefully it's reliable with the Fury upscaler too, the TV clearly recognizes the 4K signal so the under 30ms should be real result for the X1 equipped Sonys

So with PS4 Pro, Xbox One S or PC the input lag advantage for the C7 is negligible. If you can't run things at 4K then the C7 is a clear choice
I'd like to suggest this also: If you can't run things at 4K, then you could also buy the HDFury Linker and just upscale it to 4K, and then the Sony is still doing well (that is if the Linker doesn't add much input lag and also does a good job upscaling...)
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post #1420 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by assplats View Post
I'd like to suggest this also: If you can't run things at 4K, then you could also buy the HDFury Linker and just upscale it to 4K, and then the Sony is still doing well (that is if the Linker doesn't add much input lag and also does a good job upscaling...)
Spoiler!
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post #1421 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 01:20 PM
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Spoiler!
Good call . Yeah, I'm going back and forth on both owners thread, so I should be more mindful of that.

I'll research the Oppo 203--hopefully it's good for input lag. Thanks!
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post #1422 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 05:10 PM
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What is BFI? Sorry, I'm lost on many of these acronyms.

I did watch some of Orphan Black last night on Amazon in UHD. I was pretty blown away by how it looked. I caught one time where the TV struggled to handle the movement properly, but otherwise things looked fine. I set the judder to 4.

Should the de-blur be at 0 or 10? I think I read it both ways in this thread? Are there any other settings I should turn off in the ISF Dark Mode?

I assume for PS4 games, I should set the picture to Game mode?
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post #1423 of 36418 Old 04-26-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackvette94 View Post
Thanks

As for deciding between the Sony and the C7, I would say if your very sensitive for input lag then go with the C7 as it is the lowest lag tv you can get right now for all resolutions and 4:4:4.

I haven't seen the Sony yet but I have zero doubt it looks awesome too but the lag numbers don't lie and if gaming is your number one priority I would recommend the C7 because of the lower lag. Playing 60hz or 120hz gaming on the C7 vs the Sony wont be any different motion wise unless you turn on BFI on the Sony but then you get higher lag and native 120hz input would be the way to go imho if your using a pc for games
According to blur busters, BFI doesn't add input lag if well implemented and at most 1 frame of input lag at the worst implementation of it.

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Originally Posted by webzeb View Post
BFI is a nice feature that I would like to see on LG OLED TV sets, but I don't think it would be such a huge addition for console gaming.

Most 'modern' console games use motion blur that, in most cases, cannot be disabled.
Thus, if it might increase perceived sharpness of moving objects (and may also make motion blur effect artefacts easier to spot), BFI would probably not offer the 'extra sharp moving picture' you could expect.

With 30fps games the use of BFI may also result in increased 'multiple images ghosting'.
(Because the same picture is displayed several times but BFI decreases the blur due to your ocular movements, so it makes it more obvious than with a sample&hold display.)

Finally, you might loose a lot of brightness with BFI...while more and more console games benefit from HDR.

From my point of view, BFI is a nicer addition for SDR 50 or 60fps videos, or for PC gaming.
And it also requires some headroom in terms of brightness capability that some LCD may have, not OLED (at least for the moment), at least in you're not a dim lit room.
Great post. That's how I understand it too and motion blur on console games is very common unfortunately. I always put motion blur off on my PC games.

The only thing I don't agree is the loss of brightness. On the LCD TVs I tested it on, for me it was no big deal even if easily noticeable if the blur is pretty much removed like Ness Roman says it does on 60 fps games on the A1E. On the LCDs I saw no difference on removal of the blur so it was useless.

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Originally Posted by ewto16 View Post
What is BFI? Sorry, I'm lost on many of these acronyms.

I did watch some of Orphan Black last night on Amazon in UHD. I was pretty blown away by how it looked. I caught one time where the TV struggled to handle the movement properly, but otherwise things looked fine. I set the judder to 4.

Should the de-blur be at 0 or 10? I think I read it both ways in this thread? Are there any other settings I should turn off in the ISF Dark Mode?

I assume for PS4 games, I should set the picture to Game mode?
BFI = Black Frame Insertion. Black frames are inserted between the game or movie frames to remove motion blur as much as possible. Read the Sony A1E thread it is discussed more in there. It is not available on the LG OLED just on the Sony OLED for now.
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post #1424 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ewto16 View Post
What is BFI? Sorry, I'm lost on many of these acronyms.

I did watch some of Orphan Black last night on Amazon in UHD. I was pretty blown away by how it looked. I caught one time where the TV struggled to handle the movement properly, but otherwise things looked fine. I set the judder to 4.

Should the de-blur be at 0 or 10? I think I read it both ways in this thread? Are there any other settings I should turn off in the ISF Dark Mode?

I assume for PS4 games, I should set the picture to Game mode?
Imagine you have an object 'A' moving from the left to the right of the screen.

What your TV will actually display is a succession of static pictures, that your brain will interpret as a continuous movement :
Picture 1:
A_______________
Picture 2:
__A_____________
Picture 3:
____A___________
Picture 4:
______A_________
Picture 5:
________A_______
[...]

'In real life', your eyes need to follow such a moving object to get a clear picture of it. This i's because of persistence of vision (when your photoreceptors gather light they stay excited for a certain time (it decays progressively) even if there is no more light coming). If your eyes don't move, what you will see is a 'blurred trail'. (In the case of the TV, a superposition of pictures 1, 2, 3...)
So your brain will tell to your eyes to move and to follow this object 'A'...and this is where it starts to become tricky!

Unlike plasma or CRT display, OLED and LCD displays use 'sample & hold' display method.
This means that they display 'picture 1' continuously, until it is replaced by 'picture 2', then 'picture 3', and so on. In other words, it means that they will display for a significant amount of time a static object 'A', that will jump from one position to another when a new frame is displayed...while your eyes will try to follow the very same object 'A' in a continuous movement.
This will cause blur, because your eyes move while object 'A' is static and persistence of vision kicks in. No matter how fast the display response time is, it will be blurred. Even if with an OLED display whose response time is insanely fast.

They are several way to improve that.

First way is to improve framerate :
Picture 1:
A_______________
Picture 2:
_A______________
Picture 3:
__A_____________
Picture 4:
___A____________
Picture 5:
____A___________
[...]
Every single picture is displayed for a shorter amount of time. Distance between to occurrences of object 'A' is shorter. Thus, the blur caused by your eye movement is reduced. This also produced way smoother movement, not jerky jumps.
The problem is: how can you do that if your source framerate is let's say a 24fps Blu-ray disc?
Solution is frame interpolation. Your source contains (for example) 'picture 1' and 'picture 3' and your TV tries to guess what 'picture 2' should look like.
Drawbacks are artefacts (interpolated frames are not accurate, especially if you have moving objects on static background) and 'soap opera effect' (we are not used to hyper-smooth movies, plus our brain is not 'tricked' the same way by what we see when we get smoother and sharper perception...).

The second option is to display every single frame only for a very short period of time, then only display black until the next frame comes. The shorter the frame di displayed, the sharper it will look because meanwhile this short duration your eye movement will become negligible. Persistence of vision will make that you don't see the display flicker.
This can be done by shutting off the display/adding black frames between each frame...this is what BFI (Black Frame Insertion) is.
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post #1425 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 02:46 AM
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Good stuff.

Last night realized I should try watching Direct Tv with Real Cinema off. Glad I checked. While the motion didn't really bother me, I did notice some stuttering etc. Definitely helped a lot turning it off. Much much happier now.
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One problem I've had is that my in wall (and unremovable) HDMI cable won't carry a 4K signal, though it's fine at 1080p. I think it must be too long as it was certified for 4K when it was installed, or the C7 isn't very good at detecting weak-ish signals. So I'm having to watch 4K video via wired ethernet DLNA, which is kind of annoying. Quality seems the same though.
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post #1427 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 02:35 PM
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Good stuff.

Last night realized I should try watching Direct Tv with Real Cinema off. Glad I checked. While the motion didn't really bother me, I did notice some stuttering etc. Definitely helped a lot turning it off. Much much happier now.
I'll have to try that. I think my Real Cinema was on last night and I don't think it was a selectable option. What does Real Cinema do?

Anyone notice their C7 creating glitches in their picture when watching shows? Every so often, there is a "digital tear" in the picture when watching content. Like it garbles just a portion of the picture, not the whole thing. If I rewind the content, it garbles it in the same way on the same spot each time. Seemed if I turned off the de-blur (set at 0) it didn't happen again in the same spot or at all.

Does that make sense?
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Just got my C7 55". Pretty much my first time getting an expensive TV. I was amazed by how it looked when I first got it but now in having my doubts is anyone else able to report if you load up Netflix in a pitch black room is the title screen pitch black with the red Netflix logo? I ask this as this is how I swear it looked when I first got it but now when I do it in a pitch black room it just looks grey kinda like an LCD. Advice greatly appreciated.
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post #1429 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bailey Olsen View Post
Just got my C7 55". Pretty much my first time getting an expensive TV. I was amazed by how it looked when I first got it but now in having my doubts is anyone else able to report if you load up Netflix in a pitch black room is the title screen pitch black with the red Netflix logo? I ask this as this is how I swear it looked when I first got it but now when I do it in a pitch black room it just looks grey kinda like an LCD. Advice greatly appreciated.
Are you noticing any other content that should be black that doesn't appear black? If no I would it's the source, if yes you may need to adjust the brightness level.

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post #1430 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 03:31 PM
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I'll have to try that. I think my Real Cinema was on last night and I don't think it was a selectable option. What does Real Cinema do?

Anyone notice their C7 creating glitches in their picture when watching shows? Every so often, there is a "digital tear" in the picture when watching content. Like it garbles just a portion of the picture, not the whole thing. If I rewind the content, it garbles it in the same way on the same spot each time. Seemed if I turned off the de-blur (set at 0) it didn't happen again in the same spot or at all.

Does that make sense?
I usually leave TruMotion off for broadcast content. For me that's via OTA but I would think the same would apply to DTV.

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post #1431 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Bailey Olsen View Post
Just got my C7 55". Pretty much my first time getting an expensive TV. I was amazed by how it looked when I first got it but now in having my doubts is anyone else able to report if you load up Netflix in a pitch black room is the title screen pitch black with the red Netflix logo? I ask this as this is how I swear it looked when I first got it but now when I do it in a pitch black room it just looks grey kinda like an LCD. Advice greatly appreciated.
The loading screen surrounding the logo is not zero black.
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Good stuff.

Last night realized I should try watching Direct Tv with Real Cinema off. Glad I checked. While the motion didn't really bother me, I did notice some stuttering etc. Definitely helped a lot turning it off. Much much happier now.
Yes for internet TV, cable TV, and satellite providers you want to turn Real Cinema off but make sure you turn back on for blu ray movies.
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post #1433 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 04:25 PM
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Yes for internet TV, cable TV, and satellite providers you want to turn Real Cinema off but make sure you turn back on for blu ray movies.
I also leave TruMotion off for all content.
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post #1434 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Olsen View Post
Just got my C7 55". Pretty much my first time getting an expensive TV. I was amazed by how it looked when I first got it but now in having my doubts is anyone else able to report if you load up Netflix in a pitch black room is the title screen pitch black with the red Netflix logo? I ask this as this is how I swear it looked when I first got it but now when I do it in a pitch black room it just looks grey kinda like an LCD. Advice greatly appreciated.
What gamma setting are you using?
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post #1435 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 10:37 PM
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@jmone You can add the missing codes manually.
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post #1436 of 36418 Old 04-27-2017, 10:53 PM
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@jmone You can add the missing codes manually.
Thanks - I was a goose and forgot to push the IR codes out the remote (not the hub where the rest of the equipment is). All fine using the Harmony C6 codes on the C7
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post #1437 of 36418 Old 04-28-2017, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by fatallerror View Post
Someone over at Neogaf said that Leo Bodnar is working on a 4k input lag tester. That will be the most reliable I guess, hopefully it's reliable with the Fury upscaler too, the TV clearly recognizes the 4K signal so the under 30ms should be real result for the X1 equipped Sonys

So with PS4 Pro, Xbox One S or PC the input lag advantage for the C7 is negligible. If you can't run things at 4K then the C7 is a clear choice
It's unfortunate they couldn't get the Nintendo Switch to run at 4k. I'd be surprised if there were any reliable solutions to upscale to 4k which didn't add 15+ms lag in the process.
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post #1439 of 36418 Old 04-28-2017, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post
It's unfortunate they couldn't get the Nintendo Switch to run at 4k. I'd be surprised if there were any reliable solutions to upscale to 4k which didn't add 15+ms lag in the process.
You have reliable options to that but obviously the most convenient option is to pick the C7 if you want to use the Switch
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post #1440 of 36418 Old 04-28-2017, 06:09 AM
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Just have a question I hope someone can help me with here. I am running the latest software (3.51.20) and have set color gamut to "Auto" as I have heard it will then automatically switch to the "Wide" color gamut when the tv senses HDR content (or when it senses rec2020). However, when I am playing HDR movies, I've noticed if you select "Wide" versus "Auto", the picture is not identical as I assumed it would be. Selecting "Wide" seems to provide more saturated colors, definitely noticeable. So makes me wonder whether the "Auto" setting is switching to "Wide" if the two seem different when playing HDR content. Does anyone have some knowledge on this setting?
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