2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 808 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24211 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:20 AM
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I realize 24p will always have judder. I just want to figure out how to get a similar amount of judder to my other TV's. Panasonic, Vizio, JVC projector, Sharp, all have frame interpolation and SOE turned off... yet have far less judder than the LG. I'm sure what I am seeing is not what others are seeing otherwise someone would mention that judder on OLED is far worse than on other platforms. The fact that only some of the internal apps display this issue also makes me think it may just be a sub optimal internal app.
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post #24212 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
I realize 24p will always have judder. I just want to figure out how to get a similar amount of judder to my other TV's. Panasonic, Vizio, JVC projector, Sharp, all have frame interpolation and SOE turned off... yet have far less judder than the LG. I'm sure what I am seeing is not what others are seeing otherwise someone would mention that judder on OLED is far worse than on other platforms. The fact that only some of the internal apps display this issue also makes me think it may just be a sub optimal internal app.


I don’t know enough about the tv’s motion handling to say but I know rtings mentioned it in their reviews. There is no motion blur because of the fast pixel response time but there is stutter on lower frame rate content.
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The LG B7A is bad at showing low frame rate content without stutter. The frame transition occurs almost instantaneously which can be quite jarring, as the image is static for about 40ms each frame of a movie. This is especially noticeable with wide panning shots. The only way to reduce this stutter is to increase the frame rate of the content through motion interpolation.
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post #24213 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Thanks, that's very helpful. I was leaning with Best Buy because they have the service for assembling the stand and attaching the TV to stand mount. I've never done the latter and this VESA standards are a little confusing because I don't know if 200 by 300 and 300 by 200 in mm are the same thing.


I get what you’re saying. It just depends on what side of the rectangle was shorter. Regardless, the stand covers a mounting range of 600x600. Me owning the tv also should let you know you have nothing to worry about regarding what way they’re referring for the dimensions of the mount.

As far as assembling, it took me about an hour of me taking my time and then I waited for help to lift the TV up onto the mount. There are moments where an extra set of hands can be nice to keep everything level and straight, but it’s still manageable alone. I wasn’t willing to risk lifting the TV onto the mount by myself, but that’s a 5 second process when you have a second person. The mount installation is basically two separate pieces. You have the mounting bracket assembled to the TV stand (can also be wall mounted too), and two mounting “hooks/hangers” you attach to the TV, which is where the VESA dimensions come into play. Once assembled you lift the TV and set the hangers on the mounting bracket. Then use the security screws on the bottom to prevent sliding along the bracket once you have it centered how you like. I did run to Lowe’s to get some longer screws (M6 or 6 mm screws however you distinguish) for the mounting hooks. The supplied ones (two sets of M6) were either too long to have a secure connection or just a little too short for my comfort to feel like a lot of stress wasn’t occurring on the screw because it barely penetrated the screw hole with the washers and everything. But that’s just me.

I don’t know what Best Buy charges, but it could be good to have them assemble it if you’re at all concerned. This is an expensive TV and you want to make sure it’s secure. The box is a bit heavy and took two of us to carry it up some stairs.


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post #24214 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:30 AM
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The concern I had with moving it is the more delicate screen than an lcd. An lcd I can grab on the sides and lift, this tv I could only lift from the lower portion.

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post #24215 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
I realize 24p will always have judder. I just want to figure out how to get a similar amount of judder to my other TV's. Panasonic, Vizio, JVC projector, Sharp, all have frame interpolation and SOE turned off... yet have far less judder than the LG. I'm sure what I am seeing is not what others are seeing otherwise someone would mention that judder on OLED is far worse than on other platforms. The fact that only some of the internal apps display this issue also makes me think it may just be a sub optimal internal app.
This gets lost in the thousands of posts here, but we have discussed before. It bothered me to the point of almost returning my set, I decided to force myself to just leave the trumotion off because I hate SOE and leave it alone for 2 weeks. Watched some cool shows like altered carbon and paid attention to the material instead of the background and realized I hardly noticed it anymore after I stopped looking for it.

OLED response time is so fast that the TV doesn't naturally blur like LCD's do therefore it looks like it jumps. Black Frame insertion can help with this, but it's likely to only be on the 8 series LG's (maybe we'll get luck with a firmware update but doubt it). BFI can also cause it's own issues like diming the screen's brightness by ~20% which hurts HDR performance and can also cause flickering.

From Rtings description:

"Near-perfect pixel response time, far better than any LED TV, as expected of an OLED. All the blur in the image is due to 60 fps persistence, no response time blur can be seen. The black to 20% dark grey transition does have some overshoot, but this shouldn't be too visible.

Unfortunately, this lack of motion blur is a disadvantage when watching movies when motion interpolation is not enabled, as the very low frame rate of movies is made more obvious by the lack of blur, causing them to look more stuttery than normal."
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post #24216 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:41 AM
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I finally gave in and picked up a B7A last night to replace my Panasonic plasma. The contrast on the OLED is incredible. I immediately turned off all of the motion and other processing. I may experiment with some settings more after I read through the manual.
Congrats... I did the same thing a month ago... upgraded from a 42" Panasonic plasma I bought in 2011. OLED is just sick. Love it.

I went back to BB last night. The price just dropped on the TV $100 and they refunded it to me... along with the $50 price drops on both the SJ9 and UP970. Win win.
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post #24217 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zamdam View Post
Anyone having issues with the Youtube TV app on the 65B7A? I have the latest firmware on the tv and have done a hard reset on the tv. I have also deleted the app and reinstalled.

Mine shows.

Playback Error

This video requires payment. Please report this ID to help us fix the problem: longstringofnumbersandletters
Was watching YouTube TV on mine last night and had no issues. Not at home right now to test it though.
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post #24218 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:47 AM
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When I first met my now ex, she had a 14" NTSC B&W set that someone left on the curb for trash pick-up. I bought her an HD LED flatscreen... she said she really didn't notice much difference. Goes a long way to explain why she's my ex.

(It must sounds hard to believe, but it is fact. And, no, her name is not 'Helen Keller'.)
I LOL'ed.

I feel fortunate. Mine loves TV... and when we went to the store last month the 55" was above the 65" on the wall... one look and she immediately said "get the 65."

Never mentioned the price difference.

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post #24219 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:53 AM
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C7 is a wonderful set, just not big enough.

I've had the 65 inch C7 for 12 days now and while the picture is amazing, it just isn't big enough (sitting about 9 feet away). I'd love to move the couch closer but that suggestion was vetoed by the old lady. So as much as I love the set it is going back in exchange for a 75 inch Sony 940e. I may take a hit on black levels, off-angle viewing, and motion blur but I think the bigger screen size will make up for it. Once the Kuro in the bedroom dies I may revisit this TV as a replacement. Until then enjoy your sets fellas!
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post #24220 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 08:58 AM
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Was watching YouTube TV on mine last night and had no issues. Not at home right now to test it though.
It has never worked for me. I signed up for the free trial and my trial is over today. I have already prepaid for 3 months of directv now but i kind of like youtube tv better.. I dont know what else to try.. I have called LG and youtube support and they have pretty much done all they can do and it still wont play any videos.. It works on my apple tv just fine.

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post #24221 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RJVR23 View Post
I've had the 65 inch C7 for 12 days now and while the picture is amazing, it just isn't big enough (sitting about 9 feet away). I'd love to move the couch closer but that suggestion was vetoed by the old lady. So as much as I love the set it is going back in exchange for a 75 inch Sony 940e. I may take a hit on black levels, off-angle viewing, and motion blur but I think the bigger screen size will make up for it. Once the Kuro in the bedroom dies I may revisit this TV as a replacement. Until then enjoy your sets fellas!
OMG! Different strokes, I guess. We sit 18 feet from our 65C7 and bigger would be great if we had the $$$ and the wall space, but not big enough at 9 feet?! Wow.
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post #24222 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 09:50 AM
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Question for @sonoftumble and others who've installed the latest update (Korean website):

1. Were all your picture settings retained?

2. Did you have to make any adjustments to your picture settings following the update?

If the answers are 1. Yes and 2. No, I'll go ahead and install it.
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1. Yes

2. No

Keep in mind that the FW isn't a silver bullet for this DV elevated black's mess. It's just one cog in the wheel. You will see improvements with some titles, and not with others. That's because Dolby also needs to update their title libraries and the playback devices also need to update their firmware.

Still, I'm happy with the limited improvements, and have not experienced any ill effects from going "rogue" with the Korean update.
Done! We're now on the "rogue" 04.70.70 with all the cool kids!

If you use ad blockers, remember to disable or whitelist the site or clicking the download link will get you nada.

After installing and restarting the TV, and checking to be sure the firmware was installed, it scolded me for removing the USB drive without properly "ejecting". Sorry.
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post #24223 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 09:58 AM
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I'm having issues finding anything 4K on Prime Video with the built-in TV app. If I go to "Shows" and look at Man in the High Castle, Mozart in the Jungle, or any of the other shows that are supposed to offer it, I just get a list of episodes that all just say "HD" and play in 1080p.

Any tips?
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post #24224 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by wrxlvr View Post
I'm having issues finding anything 4K on Prime Video with the built-in TV app. If I go to "Shows" and look at Man in the High Castle, Mozart in the Jungle, or any of the other shows that are supposed to offer it, I just get a list of episodes that all just say "HD" and play in 1080p.



Any tips?


You didn’t scroll down far enough. You need to scroll ALL the way down until you see a “Prime UHD” section. There is one for Movies and one for TV (Originals as well).
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post #24225 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:01 AM
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OMG! Different strokes, I guess. We sit 18 feet from our 65C7 and bigger would be great if we had the $$$ and the wall space, but not big enough at 9 feet?! Wow.
18 feet!? Wow you probably have better eyes than I do . I've had my Kuro 60 inch for 9 years and even though I was really happy with the image performance I always thought that it was not big enough. Although the screen is by 5 inches larger, due to the very thin bezels the footprint of the C7 is almost identical to the Kuro. With the 75 inch at 9 feet it should give me better field of vision immersion.
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post #24226 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:02 AM
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It has never worked for me. I signed up for the free trial and my trial is over today. I have already prepaid for 3 months of directv now but i kind of like youtube tv better.. I dont know what else to try.. I have called LG and youtube support and they have pretty much done all they can do and it still wont play any videos.. It works on my apple tv just fine.
I assume that you went through the login process, used your phone (or computer) to get the code, and signed in on the TV? Have you tried both hardwiring it and wireless? I've been able to use it through both.
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post #24227 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by robnalex View Post
Will all the women in this thread please raise your hands?

My wife sits on the sofa in our living room with the 65C7P and watches her favorite shows on her iPad. When we first got our TV, and I was being blown away by the PQ, I asked her, "Do you like it?" She answered, "It's OK. I was happy with the old TV." (A 14-year-old 720p Panasonic plasma). But she's happy that it makes me happy.
Even though I'm a woman it doesn't mean that a good PQ is beyond me. I can appreciate it as much as you guys. I also build my own PCs and have for years and taught my younger sisters to do the same. I have a background in IT and for me, it just lends itself to appreciating a nice TV having stared at monitors for many years.

We do exist, but I realize there aren't that many of us. Most women are too busy to take the time to learn how to appreciate a nice set or view it as an appliance like a refrigerator. It either works or doesn't. But I have taken the time from mounting a rooftop antenna with my kid sister back when HD locals were OTA only and evolved from there.

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post #24228 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:37 AM
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Question about Dolby Vision vs HDR10!

I'm using an LG OLED B7A.

I just compared Wonder Woman running in Dolby Vision HDR on Apple TV 4K using the Cinema picture preset on default settings on LG OLED B7 vs the physical UHD Blu-Ray running in HDR10 on Xbox One X using Technicolor HDR preset with Dynamic Contrast on Low to bring up the active HDR.

Although the colors in Dolby Vision look much richer, I noticed that the image overall is much darker in Dolby Vision, meaning that I could see details in the shadows on HDR10 that I can't see in Dolby Vision.

Is this because of the Active HDR feature when dynamic contrast is set to LOW on HDR10? Or is it that Dolby Vision is generally darker compared to HDR10?

Attaching two screenshots below. I took them with the iphone x camera so it's really not that accurate, but if you notice her neck, you can see details of the uniform on HDR10 whereas in Dolby Vision is just black area.

Let me know! I'm hesitant to increase brightness of Dolby Vision above 50.

Dolby Vision HDR (Apple TV 4K):


HDR10 (Xbox One X):


Is it normal for Dolby Vision to be darker and see less details than HDR10?
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post #24229 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by robnalex View Post
Will all the women in this thread please raise your hands?

My wife sits on the sofa in our living room with the 65C7P and watches her favorite shows on her iPad. When we first got our TV, and I was being blown away by the PQ, I asked her, "Do you like it?" She answered, "It's OK. I was happy with the old TV." (A 14-year-old 720p Panasonic plasma). But she's happy that it makes me happy.
My wife watchers her YouTube videos on her iPhone, in portrait mode.
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post #24230 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:38 AM
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After installing and restarting the TV, and checking to be sure the firmware was installed, it scolded me for removing the USB drive without properly "ejecting". Sorry.
You haven't been properly scolded until you've felt the ruler on the back of your hand from an LG OLED; especially when you don't use the eject feature for the USB port!

I felt so humiliated that I began to believe that I was unworthy to conduct FW upgrades. But then I got over it . . . LOL
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post #24231 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RJVR23 View Post
I've had the 65 inch C7 for 12 days now and while the picture is amazing, it just isn't big enough (sitting about 9 feet away). I'd love to move the couch closer but that suggestion was vetoed by the old lady. So as much as I love the set it is going back in exchange for a 75 inch Sony 940e. I may take a hit on black levels, off-angle viewing, and motion blur but I think the bigger screen size will make up for it. Once the Kuro in the bedroom dies I may revisit this TV as a replacement. Until then enjoy your sets fellas!
Between 10-11 feet away here. 65" works great for us.

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post #24232 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:00 AM
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Question about Dolby Vision vs HDR10!

I'm using an LG OLED B7A.

I just compared Wonder Woman running in Dolby Vision HDR on Apple TV 4K using the Cinema picture preset on default settings on LG OLED B7 vs the physical UHD Blu-Ray running in HDR10 on Xbox One X using Technicolor HDR preset with Dynamic Contrast on Low to bring up the active HDR.

Although the colors in Dolby Vision look much richer, I noticed that the image overall is much darker in Dolby Vision, meaning that I could see details in the shadows on HDR10 that I can't see in Dolby Vision.

Is this because of the Active HDR feature when dynamic contrast is set to LOW on HDR10? Or is it that Dolby Vision is generally darker compared to HDR10?

Attaching two screenshots below. I took them with the iphone x camera so it's really not that accurate, but if you notice her neck, you can see details of the uniform on HDR10 whereas in Dolby Vision is just black area.

Let me know! I'm hesitant to increase brightness of Dolby Vision above 50.

Is it normal for Dolby Vision to be darker and see less details than HDR10?
No, not really normal. If you look at tests comparing the two on a calibrated display they are essentially identical other than slight differences in how highlights are handled (DV, they are rendered nicely; HDR10 they are clipped a bit unless Dynamic Contrast is set to Low).

Two things may be going on:

1) The xobx has had various kinds of trouble with accurate HDR10 output.
2) Those modes may not have accurate gamma/EOTF yet, if they have not been calibrated with a meter.

For more info, Vincent Teoh of HDTV Test on YouTube has some some episodes about the xbox. I don't recall the details since I don't have one. He has also done the same comparison you have, on calibrated sets, showing the very tiny differences between HDR10 and DV.

In other words, what you are seeing is not the difference inherent in DV versus HDR10 but the difference in settings in your TV between the two formats. It is completely possible (and correct) for them to look almost exactly the same.

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post #24233 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:04 AM
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I assume that you went through the login process, used your phone (or computer) to get the code, and signed in on the TV? Have you tried both hardwiring it and wireless? I've been able to use it through both.
Im using wireless. I signed in on my phone, then i signed into the tv and it gave me a code to activate in a web browser. It activated but just gives me that error message when i try to watch anything.

It shows whats currently showing and on the home screen of the youtube tv app it has shows i can watch but they give me the same error.

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post #24234 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:09 AM
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I still want the Time Machine feature that the Korean tv's have.
Yea, me too. not for the US market thou. I'm not sure if you can access it or turn it on from the service menu?
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post #24235 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by thatJohann View Post

Although the colors in Dolby Vision look much richer, I noticed that the image overall is much darker in Dolby Vision, meaning that I could see details in the shadows on HDR10 that I can't see in Dolby Vision.
Is it normal for Dolby Vision to be darker and see less details than HDR10?
There are far too many differences to make a comparison. E.g.
  • The sources are completely different.
  • The room is too bright.
  • The respective inputs are likely not properly adjusted.
Note that gamuts are the same so the apparent saturation difference is probably a side-effect of the overall luminance but it could just be a picture setting error.
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I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #24236 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by thatJohann View Post
Question about Dolby Vision vs HDR10!

I'm using an LG OLED B7A.

I just compared Wonder Woman running in Dolby Vision HDR on Apple TV 4K using the Cinema picture preset on default settings on LG OLED B7 vs the physical UHD Blu-Ray running in HDR10 on Xbox One X using Technicolor HDR preset with Dynamic Contrast on Low to bring up the active HDR.

Although the colors in Dolby Vision look much richer, I noticed that the image overall is much darker in Dolby Vision, meaning that I could see details in the shadows on HDR10 that I can't see in Dolby Vision.

Is this because of the Active HDR feature when dynamic contrast is set to LOW on HDR10? Or is it that Dolby Vision is generally darker compared to HDR10?

Attaching two screenshots below. I took them with the iphone x camera so it's really not that accurate, but if you notice her neck, you can see details of the uniform on HDR10 whereas in Dolby Vision is just black area.

Let me know! I'm hesitant to increase brightness of Dolby Vision above 50.

Is it normal for Dolby Vision to be darker and see less details than HDR10?
If you listen to some of the calibration purists on this thread, you might come away with the impression that the factory picture mode settings were handed down from ABOVE to Moses who in turn gave them to LG's engineers. Included where the commandments: "Thou shalt not mess with thy OLED LIGHT".

For DV Cinema (User), my recommendation would be to increase the OLED LIGHT to 70 and leave the Brightness setting alone. Don't worry about all this tone mapping hysteria. With DV, it's all jacked up until they fix the bugs anyway. You will find this simple adjustment will increase color saturation and you may find yourself turning down the color setting as well. As Moses himself said: "If thou finds the image pleasing, then thou shall watcheth with great pleasure".
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LG OLED65C7P 4-20-19 Calibration SDR/HDR/DV FW 05.80.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57928994
VIZIO M70-D3 Calibration SDR/HDR FW 3.4.8.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post55595700
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post #24237 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RJVR23 View Post
I've had the 65 inch C7 for 12 days now and while the picture is amazing, it just isn't big enough (sitting about 9 feet away). I'd love to move the couch closer but that suggestion was vetoed by the old lady. So as much as I love the set it is going back in exchange for a 75 inch Sony 940e. I may take a hit on black levels, off-angle viewing, and motion blur but I think the bigger screen size will make up for it. Once the Kuro in the bedroom dies I may revisit this TV as a replacement. Until then enjoy your sets fellas!
Number one reason for buyers remorse is screen size........Good thing you are taking care of that now while you can.
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post #24238 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by osufalcon View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Thanks, that's very helpful. I was leaning with Best Buy because they have the service for assembling the stand and attaching the TV to stand mount. I've never done the latter and this VESA standards are a little confusing because I don't know if 200 by 300 and 300 by 200 in mm are the same thing.


I get what you’re saying. It just depends on what side of the rectangle was shorter. Regardless, the stand covers a mounting range of 600x600. Me owning the tv also should let you know you have nothing to worry about regarding what way they’re referring for the dimensions of the mount.

As far as assembling, it took me about an hour of me taking my time and then I waited for help to lift the TV up onto the mount. There are moments where an extra set of hands can be nice to keep everything level and straight, but it’s still manageable alone. I wasn’t willing to risk lifting the TV onto the mount by myself, but that’s a 5 second process when you have a second person. The mount installation is basically two separate pieces. You have the mounting bracket assembled to the TV stand (can also be wall mounted too), and two mounting “hooks/hangers” you attach to the TV, which is where the VESA dimensions come into play. Once assembled you lift the TV and set the hangers on the mounting bracket. Then use the security screws on the bottom to prevent sliding along the bracket once you have it centered how you like. I did run to Lowe’s to get some longer screws (M6 or 6 mm screws however you distinguish) for the mounting hooks. The supplied ones (two sets of M6) were either too long to have a secure connection or just a little too short for my comfort to feel like a lot of stress wasn’t occurring on the screw because it barely penetrated the screw hole with the washers and everything. But that’s just me.

I don’t know what Best Buy charges, but it could be good to have them assemble it if you’re at all concerned. This is an expensive TV and you want to make sure it’s secure. The box is a bit heavy and took two of us to carry it up some stairs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Thanks for the details. The last thing I assembled was a VTI audio rack for my Yamaha 2070 AVR and while it was pretty straightforward, the tolerances for parts very a bit off and from start to finish with all my gear setup and good to go was ~6 hours. I have a serious chronic back pain with lifting and bending so I can't lift/bend much and sitting or standing for extended periods is difficult (painful). And while I got some help, everyone in the household has limits to lifting anything big or heavy up the stairs, etc. So, paying BB for simplicity and peace of mind might be worth it in my situation.

Also, I've had about 2 days worth of just reading and learning about mounts and I did go to my local store and have them explain and demonstrate how it works.

BTW, seeing the OLEDs displaying HDR was awesome. It was the first time I saw HDR on a OLED and it blows away pretty much all the LED-LCDs in the store.

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post #24239 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:46 AM
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Will all the women in this thread please raise your hands?

My wife sits on the sofa in our living room with the 65C7P and watches her favorite shows on her iPad. When we first got our TV, and I was being blown away by the PQ, I asked her, "Do you like it?" She answered, "It's OK. I was happy with the old TV." (A 14-year-old 720p Panasonic plasma). But she's happy that it makes me happy.
Happy Wife........Happy Life.

If Mama's happy.......everybody is happy.

That is too funny. My wife just doesn't get it either. She has commented how the picture looks "nice", especially on 4K HDR/DV movies, however was completely happy with our previous LG 65UB9200 which of course did not have HDR/DV.

If I am watching regular cable, she will go upstairs to our Bedroom and watch what she wants to wactch on our Samsung 40MU6300. She then will state she is happy with this set. I agree with her......for what it is. A bedroom TV.

It's crazy how different men and women are.

I guess I am happy she is not in to this hobby like I am. That would mean spending even more $$$ than I already do.
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post #24240 of 36393 Old 03-13-2018, 11:50 AM
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Saving multiple Technicolor Expert settings?

Just a little over two weeks now with my new 65b7a. This has probably been asked a zillion times, but I hope one more won't hurt. Is there any way to save more than one set of Technicolor Expert settings. For example, @sonoftumble provided picture settings for SDR and HDR10. Both START with Technicolor Expert, but they have different detail settings. Is there a way to save or reference the two so as not to have to change the details each time I would switch? Have exhausted my know-how in this department.

Last edited by KAB53; 03-13-2018 at 12:02 PM.
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