2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 89 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2641 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
In all fairness, he only showed that posterization in one scene there too. So how extensive is the issue, how much is the LG introducing that's not there in the source, we really don't know. From everything I've read and what Vincent himself said, the near black issues have improved from 2016 to 2017 on the LGs. Are they perfect yet? No, and I suspect that applies to the Sony as well.

He clearly states that the difference in near black handling with good material is 'marginal' and goes on to say that 'most people won't even notice at normal viewing distance'. He feels the Sony does a better job with lower quality material, but at the expense of a gamma that's not ideal. He feels Sony deliberately raised the gamma on these near black scenes to hide the near black issues. That's fine, but as Vincent said, that's at the expense of a 'more washed out picture on the Sony'. Remember I said there's no free lunch? This is proof of that. He goes on to say "In poorly compressed dark scenes, the A1 is less noisy, but the LG C7 has more depth and dimensionality". He further says "On balance, we probably give a slight edge to LG's implementation".

The more I see, the more I'm convinced there's no clear cut choice, each has their pros & cons.
If the Sony advantage is at least in part due to raised gamma, then the C7 could be calibrated to the Sony "look".
I calibrated ISF Dark on the C7 to bring out detail. Perhaps this is Sony mode

I kept the last episode of Marvel's Agents of Shield "World's end" that has many dark over-compressed scenes.
On the B6 the blocking was definitely worse than my Pioneer Kuro 600M.
On the C7, the artifacts are on-par with the 600M.

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post #2642 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 03:36 PM
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Firmware

I'm by no means impatient for firmware updates but I did check because I was curious. My panel was at 3.51.20 out of the box (I thought some people might find that interesting considering it was a USB-only update). I have auto-updates set to off. When I check for updates, it turns up nothing. I'm in Ottawa. I'll keep waiting, and meanwhile will pay attention to what the white flash sighters are saying about it...

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post #2643 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hresna View Post
I'm by no means impatient for firmware updates but I did check because I was curious. My panel was at 3.51.20 out of the box (I thought some people might find that interesting considering it was a USB-only update). I have auto-updates set to off. When I check for updates, it turns up nothing. I'm in Ottawa. I'll keep waiting, and meanwhile will pay attention to what the white flash sighters are saying about it...
Try setting Auto-apdate to ON. That's how the update showed up on mine.

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post #2644 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Culpepper View Post
My B7 screen bottom is about 2-1/8" from the shelf. I think the stand on the C7 has the same dimensions. Easy to raise the TV up...you could set the TV stand on a stack of 12" x 24" ceramic tiles which should be stable enough.
My C7 is about 1.75 inches above the shelf with the stand. IMO, a decent soundbar is meant to be on a lower shelf or mounted below a wallmount. Are those not options for you? Or running through an AVR?
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post #2645 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GANGSTERKILLER View Post
I did and everything went back to normal, thanks. No muted picture anymore. That LG HDR Jazz demo on youtube looked spectaculair again.

But LG greyed out the advanced controls in HDR game mode, colour gamut is also locked to wide here.
I'm pretty sure this wasn't the case with the previous firmware.

Well... i guess that will be fixed too someday.

But i'm happy PC mode has the right colour gamut now!
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Originally Posted by smoore View Post
I assume by factory reset we are talking about going to settings/general/reset to initial settings. I have done that and the HDR picture is still awful. I also noticed that some of YouTube videos that did not show HDR on the LG before now do. A lot settings such as black level are no greyed out.
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Originally Posted by aDDiKt24 View Post
How to do a factory reset? Or just switch it off at the power point?
I'm also curious what exactly is meant by a factory reset? Sounds like this could be important to know with each firmware update
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post #2646 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 04:56 PM
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In case anyone is interested, I did Color Volume scans on a C7 and an A1 today -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post53349906
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post #2647 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 04:59 PM
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Software Update Broke HDR

Well I had a very nasty conversation with LG and they advised me that if their software broke the TV that is not covered by the warranty and there was nothing they would do about it. I was incredulous. I cannot find my copy of the warranty and it is not on line in Canada but they told me software problems are explicitly excluded under the warranty.

I decided to do a second reset to initial settings and that picture seems better. I still do not think the HDR has as much pop as it did. In particular, I don't think that the Chess video and the Jazz videos on YouTube look as good as before. Of course, this may be due to the fact that so many settings have been changed with the update.

I am just over 150 hours and the uniformity on this panel is good. I have a calibration from Geek Squad included with my purchase and I might just do that at 200 hours and hopefully the calibrator can tell me if there is something wrong.

However, I was unimpressed with LG's reaction. Since I don't know if there is any way to measure what I think I am seeing I am in a bit of a quandary with respect to my next move.
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post #2648 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
In all fairness, he only showed that posterization in one scene there too. So how extensive is the issue, how much is the LG introducing that's not there in the source, we really don't know. From everything I've read and what Vincent himself said, the near black issues have improved from 2016 to 2017 on the LGs. Are they perfect yet? No, and I suspect that applies to the Sony as well.



He clearly states that the difference in near black handling with good material is 'marginal' and goes on to say that 'most people won't even notice at normal viewing distance'. He feels the Sony does a better job with lower quality material, but at the expense of a gamma that's not ideal. He feels Sony deliberately raised the gamma on these near black scenes to hide the near black issues. That's fine, but as Vincent said, that's at the expense of a 'more washed out picture on the Sony'. Remember I said there's no free lunch? This is proof of that. He goes on to say "In poorly compressed dark scenes, the A1 is less noisy, but the LG C7 has more depth and dimensionality". He further says "On balance, we probably give a slight edge to LG's implementation".



The more I see, the more I'm convinced there's no clear cut choice, each has their pros & cons.


I saw posterization in the 4k James Bond film I saw on Amazon but as others had said they too thought that stream/source was crappy and did not show in the bluray version of the same film.

Which brings my back to my original point, talk to the folks creating and distrusting content. All a TV can do is try to mask the flaws in the source material and by definition introduce other artifacts which you may or may not like better.


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post #2649 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Egan View Post
Don't want to beat this to death but he's talking about posterization in the DiCaprio scene and gradation in the fire scene in Mad Max Fury Road. He then compared fire in 2 other movies and didn't see the gradation so not quite an extensive investigation there, but that didn't concern me like the posterization. Given the price difference b/w them I was pulling for the C7 to match the Sony so I would know what to go with if I decided to upgrade from plasma, but the posterization killed it for me. Owners here are commenting on posterization on other sources too so it's still an issue for LG's OLEDs.
If you're accustomed to high end plasmas from Panasonic/Samsung or high end LCD displays from Samsung/Sony you're going to be in for a bit of shock with OTA/cable/satellite feeds with the degree of posterization and jagged lines such as foul lines on a basket court or patterns on a tie on the C7. And I have found that posterization can even happen on some UHD streaming feeds. IMO Wizziwig's explanation really nailed it.

I mean it's far from terrible most of the time but I guess it comes down to if you want a display that excels at one end of the spectrum but fairs worse than others at the other end versus one that doesn't annoy as much at one end of the spectrum but is not able to achieve the picture fidelity of an OLED at the other end of the spectrum.

I plan on buying a Sony XBR 900E from a retailer with a return policy to determine if I'll be happier with its overall performance. It may very well be that after spending some time with it I'll realize the C7 is preferable.
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post #2650 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 05:28 PM
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2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk)

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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
If you're accustomed to high end plasmas from Panasonic/Samsung or high end LCD displays from Samsung/Sony you're going to be in for a bit of shock with OTA/cable/satellite feeds with the degree of posterization and jagged lines such as foul lines on a basket court or patterns on a tie on the C7. And I have found that posterization can even happen on some UHD streaming feeds. IMO Wizziwig's explanation really nailed it.

I mean it's far from terrible most of the time but I guess it comes down to if you want a display that excels at one end of the spectrum but fairs worse than others at the other end versus one that doesn't annoy as much at one end of the spectrum but is not able to achieve the picture fidelity of an OLED at the other end of the spectrum.

I plan on buying a Sony XBR 900E from a retailer with a return policy to determine if I'll be happier with its overall performance. It may very well be that after spending some time with it I'll realize the C7 is overall preferable.


So I am confused. Do you own a C7? If your interested a 900E just go for it and move on. Why all the drama?


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post #2651 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by smoore View Post
Well I had a very nasty conversation with LG and they advised me that if their software broke the TV that is not covered by the warranty and there was nothing they would do about it. I was incredulous. I cannot find my copy of the warranty and it is not on line in Canada but they told me software problems are explicitly excluded under the warranty.

I decided to do a second reset to initial settings and that picture seems better. I still do not think the HDR has as much pop as it did. In particular, I don't think that the Chess video and the Jazz videos on YouTube look as good as before. Of course, this may be due to the fact that so many settings have been changed with the update.

I am just over 150 hours and the uniformity on this panel is good. I have a calibration from Geek Squad included with my purchase and I might just do that at 200 hours and hopefully the calibrator can tell me if there is something wrong.

However, I was unimpressed with LG's reaction. Since I don't know if there is any way to measure what I think I am seeing I am in a bit of a quandary with respect to my next move.
Definitely check all your setting and put them back to where you had them.

Please report back with your results when you are done. I am holding off on upgrading until we figure out what happened on yours.

Also, wouldn't it be possible to download the prior firmware and downgrade your TV?

Thanks
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post #2652 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PlanetAVS View Post
My C7 is about 1.75 inches above the shelf with the stand. IMO, a decent soundbar is meant to be on a lower shelf or mounted below a wallmount. Are those not options for you? Or running through an AVR?
Thanks for this info. So I don't have the option to wall-mount at the moment. My TV stand has a bunch of smaller cubbies in it (great for displaying/using all my new/old consoles) so If the soundbar weren't to go right in front of the bottom of the TV it would have to go on the floor right under the stand (basically like the bottom shelf of the stand since it has legs) which is about 20-24" below the bottom of the TV. In terms of AVR, not exactly sure what that entails but given my goal was to keep things simple (I've never had any sound besides TV sound before), my goal was to get a soundbar that sounds good on it's own but I could add a sub or (maybe?) satellites later, why I'm looking at the bose soundtouch 300 and samsung sound+. I think raising the TV up may end up being my best option if I go with OLED, or just using the TV's sound.
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post #2653 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Flaken2000 View Post
From the Sony A1E manual. In the specs at the end. It mentions the full bandwidth only on hdmi 2/3.
https://docs.sony.com/release//Ref_4693661111.pdf

I have a B7 so I personally don't care what the A1E can or can't do. Just want you to have the correct info.


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Thanks. It's odd that Sony would have misinformation like this on their current website.
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post #2654 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rsonnens View Post
So I am confused. Do you own a C7? If you interested a 900E just go for it and move on. Why all the drama?

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Of course I own the C7. I'm getting the 900E to see if I will like it better than the C7. If not I'll return it and if so I'll sell the C7 which didn't have a return policy.

As to my drama, I'm going to continue to counter your postulations that LG's posterization issues are solely with the source.
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post #2655 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 06:22 PM
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2017 LG C7-B7 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk)

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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
Of course I own the C7. I'm getting the 900E to see I will like it better than the C7. If not I'll return it and if so I'll sell the C7 which didn't have a return policy.

As to my drama, I'm going to continue to counter your postulations that LG's posterization issues are solely with the source.

Well, I agree it is not "solely" the source as image manipulation can be done to have it not appear in some cases and the LG does somethings different than Sony. So I don't think you are countering me. I've even said they be seen it. But I do believe it is the "root cause" which you don't seem to acknowledge. I've also not actually comment to you about posterization (I do think I have) but I have focused on gradient banding and micro-blocking.

I also do not think the LGs are perfect. I think near black banding is a real issue for some and judder is bad depending upon settings and inputs. More important the white flashes and tearing are unacceptable.

Price being equal I would have gone for the AE1, ZD9, or (if sold in the US) the Panasonic. Some of which share some of the same problems or have others. Everything is a compromise.


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post #2656 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TheMissingLink117 View Post
Thanks for this info. So I don't have the option to wall-mount at the moment. My TV stand has a bunch of smaller cubbies in it (great for displaying/using all my new/old consoles) so If the soundbar weren't to go right in front of the bottom of the TV it would have to go on the floor right under the stand (basically like the bottom shelf of the stand since it has legs) which is about 20-24" below the bottom of the TV. In terms of AVR, not exactly sure what that entails but given my goal was to keep things simple (I've never had any sound besides TV sound before), my goal was to get a soundbar that sounds good on it's own but I could add a sub or (maybe?) satellites later, why I'm looking at the bose soundtouch 300 and samsung sound+. I think raising the TV up may end up being my best option if I go with OLED, or just using the TV's sound.
Understood re your TV stand limitations. Agree that putting the speaker near the floor is not a good option. Using an AVR (Audio Video Receiver) is the best sound quality option which means to run the TV and/or external device sounds via HDMI or optical cable to the AVR/Home Theater receiver and then using larger external speakers/subwoofer(s)/surround speakers. However you might have budget/space restrictions to deal with as well as introducing some complexity. Getting a new stand or raising the TV might be your best compromise (although I personally would be wary about placing a $4,000 TV on top of ceramic tiles or whatever)
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post #2657 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dancolt View Post
Definitely check all your setting and put them back to where you had them.

Please report back with your results when you are done. I am holding off on upgrading until we figure out what happened on yours.

Also, wouldn't it be possible to download the prior firmware and downgrade your TV?

Thanks
Dan
There was one other person on this forum who reported the same problem but indicated that the reset to initial settings fixed it. I didn't write down the settings that I had before the update but I do know that some settings have changed. For example OLED Light is at 100 on HDR10 and 50 for Dolby Vision.

LG told me you cannot revert to older firmware. I have the last firmware on USB and the TV will not read it because it is older than the firmware on the TV.

I would love to know the default settings in Dolby Vision and HDR10 for Cinema and Cinema Home from before the update.
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Has any one tried to pair Kilipsch over the ear Bluetooth headphones to the B7/C7? I am having an issue with my B6 as it connects and then immediately disconnects the headphones. Since a C7 is a possibility for a next TV just wondering if anyone is having this same type of issue. LG customer service indicated that the head phones may not be compatible but I was able to pair a cheaper set of in ear BT headphones with no issues.

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post #2659 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
If the Sony advantage is at least in part due to raised gamma, then the C7 could be calibrated to the Sony "look".
I calibrated ISF Dark on the C7 to bring out detail. Perhaps this is Sony mode

I kept the last episode of Marvel's Agents of Shield "World's end" that has many dark over-compressed scenes.
On the B6 the blocking was definitely worse than my Pioneer Kuro 600M.
On the C7, the artifacts are on-par with the 600M.

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So Rich, you're confirming the 2017 LGs are handling near black significantly better than the 2016s.
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post #2660 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rsonnens View Post
So I am confused. Do you own a C7? If your interested a 900E just go for it and move on. Why all the drama?


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Agreed, it was obvious where this was headed.
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post #2661 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
Of course I own the C7. I'm getting the 900E to see I will like it better than the C7. If not I'll return it and if so I'll sell the C7 which didn't have a return policy.

As to my drama, I'm going to continue to counter your postulations that LG's posterization issues are solely with the source.


Good luck. I personally cant get past the semi gloss finish on the sony TVs this year sans the 940e/A1E.
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post #2662 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by donkrx View Post
What exactly makes you say LG is maintaining 4:4:4 and downgrading 10-bit to 8-bit? Are you sure it's not the source material to blame (some HDR games may have this problem)?

I also question the statement "the TV knows it can't transmit the signal". The TV isn't transmitting anything other than HDCP handshaking ... the signal is coming from the player. The player should be checking in with the display for capabilities, and enforcing any limitations. If the signal is greater than the HDMI 2.0 bandwidth, a good image simply isn't going to ... get there. Any "mode" the TV is placed into will make assumptions about the data being sent - for example if in PC, it assumes 4:4:4. It is possible Panasonic is dynamically determining chroma and bit depth, while LG is static, but we need a controlled test to say that definitively.

Also you mention PC mode. In HDR mode I think Picture mode = Game has to be selected, no? At least, I do notice differences. For example in HDR Picture = Game I am not able to use TruMotion, but I can with HDR Picture = Standard (both using Input = PC).
Just now I confirmed in SDR that Input = PC will replicate 10-bit depth when sent a 4K 60fps 4:2:0 signal, so the issue suggested by some others appears not true in my experience: PC mode does not downgrade a 10-bit signal to 8-bit.

My setup is GTX 1070 --> AVR --> TV in PC mode. I changed the Nvidia settings to output 4K 60fps 4:2:0, and confirmed I was getting 4K 60fps 4:2:0 with a chroma test pattern. I also checked that 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 work correctly in PC mode, and that 4:4:4 is not achievable in Game Console mode. I then used Rtings 16-bit gradient to compare performances in bit depth. When I swap my Nvidia settings between 8-bit and 12-bit, I see an obvious improvement in the color banding. The exact same thing happens when I do this in Game Console mode.

It would be really weird for PC mode to force 8-bit, because to do this, the 10-bit color data would have to be on-the-fly scaled down to 8-bit (converting a 1024 range to a 255 range). This would hurt the overall input lag, the very thing PC mode is designed for. Instead it seems like the other modes are doing the processing/limiting.

I will have to check HDR another day... it should be the same, but there's always a chance it's doing something odd (intentionally or unintentionally).
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post #2663 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 09:19 PM
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If you're accustomed to high end plasmas from Panasonic/Samsung or high end LCD displays from Samsung/Sony you're going to be in for a bit of shock with OTA/cable/satellite feeds with the degree of posterization and jagged lines such as foul lines on a basket court or patterns on a tie on the C7. And I have found that posterization can even happen on some UHD streaming feeds.
I see the same posterization/compression artifacts and other picture issues on my Kuro as I do on the C7. Both are calibrated. I can even see the same stuff on an el' cheap o Samsung LCD I have here too. So from what I have here, it is the source and not the C7. The A1E I have can clean up the posterization though.
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post #2664 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 09:57 PM
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The banding sure is insidious. Sometimes you just CRINGE at a scene with it but most of the time it ain't too bad or non existent.

The Indiana Jones trilogy is just stellar on this set, especially temple of doom and last crusade woooow! Now that's superb remasters. The lighting, colors and sharpness is insane and it's just 1080p blu-rays! Raiders is less good. I guess they did what they could with the source material.
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post #2665 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 10:04 PM
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I don't have the C7 but the B6 , I did the test with different displays and I see the same artifact posterization/compression on all my displays.


This article talk about this artifact.

http://www.displayandsoundcalibratio...sung-55js9000/

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post #2666 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 10:53 PM
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I see the same posterization/compression artifacts and other picture issues on my Kuro as I do on the C7. Both are calibrated. I can even see the same stuff on an el' cheap o Samsung LCD I have here too. So from what I have here, it is the source and not the C7. The A1E I have can clean up the posterization though.
Assuming you have Amazon Prime and a streaming device connected to your Kuro how does the macro blocking (or whatever the term) behind Kristen Stewart compare between the two displays? Obviously you'll need to play the HD version of the movie with the Kuro. Based upon the PN60E7000 I had I'm guessing the scene is not nearly as brutal on the plasma. Thanks.
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post #2667 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 11:31 PM
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I plan on buying a Sony XBR 900E from a retailer with a return policy to determine if I'll be happier with its overall performance. It may very well be that after spending some time with it I'll realize the C7 is preferable.
If you get the 900E I'll follow your comments on it in the 900E thread as I'm interested in how it compares to the C7.
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post #2668 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I see the same posterization/compression artifacts and other picture issues on my Kuro as I do on the C7. Both are calibrated. I can even see the same stuff on an el' cheap o Samsung LCD I have here too. So from what I have here, it is the source and not the C7. The A1E I have can clean up the posterization though.
Have you noticed any other downsides with the A1E with the rest of the PQ the way it handles scenes with posterization? You have a very discerning eye and was wondering if the Sony gets your vote for watching 1080i/ 720p for OTA/ Cable channels compared with the other sets that you own.

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post #2669 of 36418 Old 05-31-2017, 11:51 PM
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HBO Go streaming is pretty bad on my B7.
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post #2670 of 36418 Old 06-01-2017, 03:10 AM
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Have you noticed any other downsides with the A1E with the rest of the PQ the way it handles scenes with posterization? You have a very discerning eye and was wondering if the Sony gets your vote for watching 1080i/ 720p for OTA/ Cable channels compared with the other sets that you own.
If you pause the image where you can see the difference between Smooth Gradation Off and Low/Med/High, you can see that it softens details. Nothing major but it is there.

The number of times this posterization shows up with the content here doesn't sway me in any way towards one particular set. I'm a true to source type of person so garbage in, garbage out is my MO. I can see how others could preferred the processed image of the Sony though.

"Do you like steak sauce with your steak?" is my analogy.

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