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post #1 of 16 Old 03-25-2017, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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LG trumotion interpolation slow-mo

I've made four slow-mo videos with my phone (720p, 240 fps) using the same test file, but different trumotion settings.

I understand that the common knowledge says that using trumotion always means frame interpolation.

With the following videos I challenge this knowledge.

I think these videos clearly show (at least to my eyes) that trumotion off and trumotion user, de-judder 0 are the same regarding frame interpolation.

Accepting the above and understanding that trumotion user, de-judder 9 gives us at least 600 lines of motion resolution (you can test is for yourself with readily available test files) makes me think that the Philips OLEDs much touted 600 lines of motion resolution is nothing new.

IMO it is only a clever user interface design - what LG offers in a menu item with two components (trumotion: user has two sliders, one for frame interpolation and one for increasing the motion resolution independently from frame interpolation) Philips made it to two distinct menu items.

What do you think?

Here are the slow-mo videos
trumotion de-judder 0, de-blur 9

trumotion off

trumotion: user, de-judder 1, de-blur 9

trumotion 1. preset (smooth?)

TV: LG EG910V
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kodi test file, 1080p 23,96 fps
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post #2 of 16 Old 03-25-2017, 02:11 PM
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I cant really tell any difference on my E6 with TM off or TM set to 0,10. However, on my 9500, I have to set TM dejudder to 2 to get same look. I think LG has fine tuned TM with OLED over the past few years. Using dejudder at other than zero causes artifacts on the the E6, whereas on the 9500, it needed to be set at 2.
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post #3 of 16 Old 03-25-2017, 03:46 PM
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Wonder if you've seen anything with your testing...When using TruMotion on 24p sources, Real Cinema is grayed out to whatever setting it was on. Does that mean you can only use on or the other or will Real Cinema stay on if you set it on?

Because of lip sync issues I was having I can't use TruMotion when playing 24p blu-rays, so I'm just Real Cinema and that alone looks great. I've encountered no issues or artifacts at all and doesn't make me miss my plasma. For the Netflix, Hulu, etc apps I'm undecided on whether to go with RC or TM 0,10 whenever both options are available.
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post #4 of 16 Old 03-25-2017, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoli View Post
Accepting the above and understanding that trumotion user, de-judder 9 gives us at least 600 lines of motion resolution (you can test is for yourself with readily available test files) makes me think that the Philips OLEDs much touted 600 lines of motion resolution is nothing new.
Not sure what you're trying to prove here. Facts are that LG has no mode that gets 600+ lines of motion resolution without artifacts on complex motion. Philips does.
Your scrolling bars are way too simple to see the artifacts that will be present with real content.


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post #5 of 16 Old 03-25-2017, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Not sure what you're trying to prove here. Facts are that LG has no mode that gets 600+ lines of motion resolution without artifacts on complex motion. Philips does.
Your scrolling bars are way too simple to see the artifacts that will be present with real content.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yrW2V8h_1A
My point is this: I don't think that the popular opinion of 'no trumotion does frame interpolation in every case, as soon as you turn it on' is true.
My second point is this: It is possible to get 600+ lines of motion resolution without frame interpolation.


Since there's no frame interpolation when de-judder set to 0 - as you can see it on my videos, but you can always do this experiment for yourself if you don't trust a youtube video - the only possibility of artifacting is the deblur algorithm.

It is super easy for the frame interpolation algorithm to detect evenly paced horizontal motion patterns as you can see it on the 'Trumotion smooth' video. The more complex the frame gets the more likely to trip the algorithm, and the most complex frames usually don't get any interpolation. What the algorithm certainly does not do is this: Nah, this frame is to easy to interpolate, I don't do the work!

Can you tell us what artifacts are present on complex motion when only the deblur algorithm works?
(Please do not list the frame interpolation artifacts.)

If there's a clip somewhere which trips the trumotion de-judder algorithm (I've seen artifacting many times with trumotion: user, de-judder set to 3- mainly on objects moving in front of high contrast vertical bars, but I don't have such a clip at hand), I would appreciate a pointer to it.

Thanks in advance.
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post #6 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntotheBlue View Post
Wonder if you've seen anything with your testing...When using TruMotion on 24p sources, Real Cinema is grayed out to whatever setting it was on. Does that mean you can only use on or the other or will Real Cinema stay on if you set it on?

Because of lip sync issues I was having I can't use TruMotion when playing 24p blu-rays, so I'm just Real Cinema and that alone looks great. I've encountered no issues or artifacts at all and doesn't make me miss my plasma. For the Netflix, Hulu, etc apps I'm undecided on whether to go with RC or TM 0,10 whenever both options are available.
I may be wrong but my understanding is that once you turn ON TM, realcinema doesn't get used anymore. So, I have been using TruMotion OFF with RealCinema ON for my 24p content which would be bluray and UHD discs. For other stuff I stick with dejudder 0 and deblur 10. Seems to work OK for me but I am not as sensitive to motion issues as some other users. Take that into account!

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post #7 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoli View Post
My point is this: I don't think that the popular opinion of 'no trumotion does frame interpolation in every case, as soon as you turn it on' is true.
My second point is this: It is possible to get 600+ lines of motion resolution without frame interpolation.


Since there's no frame interpolation when de-judder set to 0 - as you can see it on my videos, but you can always do this experiment for yourself if you don't trust a youtube video - the only possibility of artifacting is the deblur algorithm.

It is super easy for the frame interpolation algorithm to detect evenly paced horizontal motion patterns as you can see it on the 'Trumotion smooth' video. The more complex the frame gets the more likely to trip the algorithm, and the most complex frames usually don't get any interpolation. What the algorithm certainly does not do is this: Nah, this frame is to easy to interpolate, I don't do the work!

Can you tell us what artifacts are present on complex motion when only the deblur algorithm works?
(Please do not list the frame interpolation artifacts.)

If there's a clip somewhere which trips the trumotion de-judder algorithm (I've seen artifacting many times with trumotion: user, de-judder set to 3- mainly on objects moving in front of high contrast vertical bars, but I don't have such a clip at hand), I would appreciate a pointer to it.

Thanks in advance.
Watch Halt and Catch Fire, season 3, episode 10, start watching at the 7:30 mark. Pay attention to the black squares on the whiteboard. Even at dejudder 1 you can see some weird things happen to the lines (even when there is no motion at all), and then when someone erases the board pay attention to their fast moving hand, more artifacts. Using only deblur or or off entirely is the only way to prevent those issues.
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post #8 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
I may be wrong but my understanding is that once you turn ON TM, realcinema doesn't get used anymore. So, I have been using TruMotion OFF with RealCinema ON for my 24p content which would be bluray and UHD discs. For other stuff I stick with dejudder 0 and deblur 10. Seems to work OK for me but I am not as sensitive to motion issues as some other users. Take that into account!
Ok that's exactly what I'm doing. Coming from a plasma for 7 years I am super sensitive to motion and with the same settings you're using I haven't seen a single issue and am really enjoying it.
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post #9 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntotheBlue View Post
Watch Halt and Catch Fire, season 3, episode 10, start watching at the 7:30 mark. Pay attention to the black squares on the whiteboard. Even at dejudder 1 you can see some weird things happen to the lines (even when there is no motion at all), and then when someone erases the board pay attention to their fast moving hand, more artifacts. Using only deblur or or off entirely is the only way to prevent those issues.
Thanks, I'll check it.

What you wrote is in line with my experience - no de-judder no interpolation - no artifacts.
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post #10 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntotheBlue View Post
Watch Halt and Catch Fire, season 3, episode 10, start watching at the 7:30 mark. Pay attention to the black squares on the whiteboard. Even at dejudder 1 you can see some weird things happen to the lines (even when there is no motion at all), and then when someone erases the board pay attention to their fast moving hand, more artifacts. Using only deblur or or off entirely is the only way to prevent those issues.
Ok, I've managed to grab the file. It is 5.3 GB, 1080P at 23.96 frame/s

Truth to be told, I did not see artifacting on the whiteboard, and the hands wiping the board did not look too weird.
Other than the soap opera effect I did not see nasty things. Maybe worse wawing hands, but nothing tragic.

I've made slow-mo videos on trumotion user de-judder 0 de-blur 9 (setting A), trumotion smooth (setting B) and trumotion off (setting C).
In slow-mo - and at normal speed, too - I can't see any differences between setting A and setting C.

In slow-mo I could clearly see differences between setting A and setting B or setting C and setting B. (Not a big surprise.)

I try to upload them to youtube, I hope they will not see them as copyright violation.

setting A

setting B

setting C

Last edited by zzoli; 03-26-2017 at 11:12 AM. Reason: added youtube links
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post #11 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 01:11 PM
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Weird, for me during parts of that scene, the black lines on the board actually flicker and disappear at some spots, quite noticeable.

What TV and where are you watching Netflix from? I have a C6 and watching from the LG built-in app.
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post #12 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntotheBlue View Post
Weird, for me during parts of that scene, the black lines on the board actually flicker and disappear at some spots, quite noticeable.

What TV and where are you watching Netflix from? I have a C6 and watching from the LG built-in app.
Apps are way unreliable, there is no way to get a true 24p experience from any online anything. Blu ray or something transferred from blu ray should be your only test. I have the best internet in the world and I still get hiccups.

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post #13 of 16 Old 03-26-2017, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dianabol5mg View Post
Apps are way unreliable, there is no way to get a true 24p experience from any online anything. Blu ray or something transferred from blu ray should be your only test. I have the best internet in the world and I still get hiccups.
Agreed - anytime I do any serious PQ or settings adjustments I do them in a darker room and with premium content. Streaming works very well for me and I have King-Kong grade internet too but its STILL streaming. There will be little nuances and issues here and there.

For the record, I have settled on:

24p Content via blu-ray and UHD: TruMotion OFF, RealCinema ON
All other Content: TruMotion User - DeJudder 0, DeBlur 10
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post #14 of 16 Old 03-27-2017, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntotheBlue View Post
Weird, for me during parts of that scene, the black lines on the board actually flicker and disappear at some spots, quite noticeable.

What TV and where are you watching Netflix from? I have a C6 and watching from the LG built-in app.
File name says it is from web download (a friend brought me this file). Internal media player from an USB connected hard drive. LG EG910V HD OLED (in North Americe it is the 9100)
File size is 5.3 GB, 23.97 fps, 1080P, approx. 12 Mb/s
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post #15 of 16 Old 03-29-2017, 12:47 AM
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Does anyone know what de-blur is actually doing to increase the motion resolution?
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post #16 of 16 Old 03-29-2017, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know what de-blur is actually doing to increase the motion resolution?
Good question.
Foolishly I thought I will see something on the slow-mo videos that hints at the working of de-blur. Of course I did not see anything.

But I would wager that Philips does the same thing.
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