Sony A1E Calibration Thread - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 1150 Old 01-31-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I think it is based on the contrast setting , I did a friends 940e and saw the same behavior. I didn’t change anything and I don’t think it’s related to the model , it is doing some kind of computation based on the contrast setting imo . Not 100% sure that is the cause but seems like something worth investigating .


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Great, thanks for all the input; I hope it’s something that simple!

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post #1052 of 1150 Old 01-31-2019, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by RTracey View Post
Great, thanks for all the input; I hope it’s something that simple!


Me too ! I’ll try to prove that out next time I can hookup my meter . All I know these are by far best results I have gotten and the variable seems to be making sure the contrast is set to 100.


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post #1053 of 1150 Old 01-31-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by camacho8 View Post
Did you get de 0.2 with or without rolling? I've seen mine get to .19 pre rolling and once rolling gets its hand on it, it makes it 0.5-0.6 .


Also that dip RTtracey has at 92ire is exactly the very same that I get, giving me gamma at 2.15.....We both use mobileforge,so im starting to think that might be the culprit.
Without rolling. Yep i'm not seeing this behavior.

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post #1054 of 1150 Old 01-31-2019, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Folks just to clarify, the autocal workflow changes the contrast to Max then back to 90 so depending on when you manually look you may see one or the other setting. This was confusing me and Tyler showed me the workflow is making the changes.

Also there is no non-rolling option right now so I just cancel the run as the last IRE is completing. It's tricky to do but not impossible. We should see the non-rolling option in the next release.

But I agree with D-Nice, it's probably the i1D3 and or the pattern generator that you are using because other's, including myself and I believe D-Nice are not seeing this behavior. You will just have to experiment to see what the culprit is. As an experiment you can try using the i1Pro but it will have trouble reading below 30% if I remember correctly, but it can't hurt to try it.

Edit: Also, i'm not saying that you can't get a good result with rolling 10pt. Sometimes it does work but I found on my A1E, non-rolling usually works the first time. I mentioned the other day that rolling sometimes makes the result worse and i'm not sure why. Especially if Autocal starts playing with the 100/105 IRE on the 2nd pass.

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post #1055 of 1150 Old 02-01-2019, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RTracey View Post
Thanks. Certainly no commonality in the pattern generators we’re all using. I’d really like to think that rolling calibration is messing things up, except John doesn’t have the problem with his A1E. Maybe the rolling cal interacts poorly with some pattern generators?

I can fully understand why you would think the Autocal rolling is the issue as if you watch the Autocal in progress you can see it starts at level 105 & works it way down to 9.6 (non-rolling).


Now if I was to stop Autocal here I would have the perfect grayscale & gamma but this result is false as it is not taking into account the interactivity between the controls/points.


I don't want to tell anyone how to suck eggs but if you just do a manual calibration working in the same way from 105 to 9.6 you will be able to get the same result but then remeasure the whole grayscale again.



It will have huge errors because for example adjusting control point 92 will always have an effect on control point 105, this is the case for many other control points.


You need to adjust one control point & then remeasure the whole grayscale to see what effect it has had on the other control points. This is what the rolling Autocal is trying to do. Its "cleaning up" if you will.


After doing the initial sweep down the grayscale its going back over it again to try & correct for the errors that have been created from the initial adjustments. This induced error is completely normal.



I do think the rolling Autocal could do with some improvements, I know the top of the grayscale is very sensitive & more so when adjusting points between 69 & 105 but I have never seen after it has made its way from the top to the bottom it recheck the top two points again. Point 105 has a massive influence of the whole grayscale, this seem to be because of the way CalMAN is calculating error.


@jrref or @chunon please don't take this the wrong way but after Autocal has completed & you get the prompt saying so are you doing a read series of the grayscale again? So rechecking & confirming the results?

My apologies if this seems a stupid question but I just wanted to eliminated the possibility.

I have had several times an excellent result displayed but upon rechecking its not very good at all.

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post #1056 of 1150 Old 02-01-2019, 02:24 AM
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This is exactly what I was talking about, I have just reset everything after letting my meters & display warm up for an hour. I then re-profiled my meter & did another Autocal.


This is the result after Autocal:



Now I did a read series without changing any settings & this is the result:





As you can see after rechecking the grayscale after Autocal has finished the grayscale isn't as good as it first seems.


I believe the reason for the differences is that after Autocal has completed it does not remeasure the entire grayscale to check if the last adjustments it made have effected the rest of the grayscale.


So if I did not recheck the grayscale I would think I have gotten a really good result when in fact that's not the case.
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post #1057 of 1150 Old 02-01-2019, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
This is exactly what I was talking about, I have just reset everything after letting my meters & display warm up for an hour. I then re-profiled my meter & did another Autocal.


This is the result after Autocal:



Now I did a read series without changing any settings & this is the result:





As you can see after rechecking the grayscale after Autocal has finished the grayscale isn't as good as it first seems.


I believe the reason for the differences is that after Autocal has completed it does not remeasure the entire grayscale to check if the last adjustments it made have effected the rest of the grayscale.


So if I did not recheck the grayscale I would think I have gotten a really good result when in fact that's not the case.


I don’t see that behavior , it measures fine after the autocal is complete also I am comparing the autocal visually against my manual professionally calibrated mode from last year and it matches up very well . Pretty sure since Jjref and DNICE are professional calibrators they would have discovered this if it is a real problem. I won’t clutter up this thread anymore since I don’t own the A1E good luck to you .



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post #1058 of 1150 Old 02-01-2019, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I don’t see that behavior , it measures fine after the autocal is complete also I am comparing the autocal visually against my manual professionally calibrated mode from last year and it matches up very well . Pretty sure since Jjref and DNICE are professional calibrators they would have discovered this if it is a real problem. I won’t clutter up this thread anymore since I don’t own the A1E good luck to you .



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Fair enough, thanks for all your help & feedback.


I agree on the checking the grayscale after Autocal but its worth asking & also shows what I am experiencing.


Seems my issue as that I cant get stable enough readings as they seem to be changing like the wind between reads. I just wish I knew what was causing it as I have exhausted everything I know to check.
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post #1059 of 1150 Old 02-01-2019, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Fair enough, thanks for all your help & feedback.


I agree on the checking the grayscale after Autocal but its worth asking & also shows what I am experiencing.


Seems my issue as that I cant get stable enough readings as they seem to be changing like the wind between reads. I just wish I knew what was causing it as I have exhausted everything I know to check.


That points to a meter issue imo , hope you get it figured out .


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post #1060 of 1150 Old 02-01-2019, 11:10 AM
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Well this is as good as I am going to be able to get my day & night modes after running Autocal & then manually tweaking afterwards:


Day, Custom, After Autocal:
Day, Custom, After Autocal & manual tweaking
Night, Pro Cinema, After Autocal
Night Pro Cinema After Autocal & manual tweaking




I am happy with the day mode but no matter what I try I am unable to get rid of the dip in gamma at 92% with my night mode in Pro Cinema, it's very strange I can get the gamma looking better but the error goes through the roof.

I will have another iD3 meter with me next week & I will give night mode a go again but I will be honest I don't think it will be any different. My iD3 is profiled against my i1Pro & using Ted's pre calibration workflow the profile checks out with flying colours so I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
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post #1061 of 1150 Old 02-01-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Well this is as good as I am going to be able to get my day & night modes after running Autocal & then manually tweaking afterwards:

I am happy with the day mode but no matter what I try I am unable to get rid of the dip in gamma at 92% with my night mode in Pro Cinema, it's very strange I can get the gamma looking better but the error goes through the roof.

I will have another iD3 meter with me next week & I will give night mode a go again but I will be honest I don't think it will be any different. My iD3 is profiled against my i1Pro & using Ted's pre calibration workflow the profile checks out with flying colours so I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
Please detail your id3 setup (i.e. on screen or off screen). This is sounding more and more like a meter issue, specifically id3 repeatability capabilities.
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post #1062 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 01:09 PM
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OK, here are my observations after some additional testing. I reset everything on the TV, confirmed that the contrast was set at max before the autocal ran and adjusted the delay to 1 as D-Nice suggested. I'm seeing the same behaviour as Adam, although my dEs are not quite as good.


Full autocalibration per the workflow:



Reading taken after the full autocal:



Autocal stopped before the rolling calibration routine:



Reading taken after the stopped autocal:



So, I'm still seeing the dip at 82-92 IRE. Stopping the autocal before the rolling calibration adjustment starts (when I have an apparently ideal response), yields garbage when the grayscale is read again.

If this is a meter issue, it's fundamental to the meter design itself and not to one individual meter - Adam and I are using variants of the same meter and see essentially the same thing. My money is on a software bug with this meter.

And still no response from Spectracal...
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post #1063 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Please detail your id3 setup (i.e. on screen or off screen). This is sounding more and more like a meter issue, specifically id3 repeatability capabilities.

Meter is off the screen attached to the boom microphone stand about 20cm from the screen. I know the FOV of the iD3 is around 13cm but when validating my profile I got better results with the meter slightly further away from the screen.


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OK, here are my observations after some additional testing. I reset everything on the TV, confirmed that the contrast was set at max before the autocal ran and adjusted the delay to 1 as D-Nice suggested. I'm seeing the same behaviour as Adam, although my dEs are not quite as good.

So, I'm still seeing the dip at 82-92 IRE. Stopping the autocal before the rolling calibration adjustment starts (when I have an apparently ideal response), yields garbage when the grayscale is read again.

If this is a meter issue, it's fundamental to the meter design itself and not to one individual meter - Adam and I are using variants of the same meter and see essentially the same thing. My money is on a software bug with this meter.

And still no response from Spectracal...
Thanks for posting all your results, so glad I am not the only one getting these results as I think if I were I would be going slightly mad

I presume you are not creating you own meter profile with a spectro?



Also which picture mode are you using? Custom or Pro Cinema?


Finally is your meter on or off the screen? I have found out that OLED is a lot like plasma & heats up to such a degree that this can effect the meter so non-contact measurements are the best way to go.



The only downside to this is that if you cant control the ambient light in you room this may effect your results. I believe there is a feature in CalMAN to compensate for this but I have never used it as I can control all the ambient light in my room.



I am getting better results with Custom for some reason. It's like there is additional processing going on in the background on Pro Cinema even with all the processing turned off in the menus.

I have had two replies from Spectral, the one I have already posted & the other I asked about why after Autocal has finished if you do a read series you get different results, there was the response:




"That is most likely happening because, at the immediate end of the AutoCal process, the greyscale chart may not always reflect the final adjustments. That is why the Post-Calibration screen has you re-read the greyscale to get an idea of the final results.

There may also be a bit of error exaggeration, which happens near black and white when using a Gamma Log/Log chart.

At any rate, the dE numbers you are getting are well under what could be identified by a human eye."



So from what I am reading they say there is no problem because my readings are under 1 dE average & are not perceivable to the human eye. Not the response I was looking for.

I also think this is a meter issue but I cannot see what else we can do to resolve it?

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post #1064 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 04:49 PM
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In the Z9F thread I asked Tyler from Spectracal if Sony had fixed the white balance control mismatch, he said they line up if contrast is set to max. So out of curiosity I wondered if it would work on the A1E, and it did for me for my Cinema Pro/expert 1 settings but not for my Custom/expert 2 settings. I didn't keep the settings as I didn't know how accurate things would be when resetting the contrast back to 90. I may play around with it again.
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So the CM workflow will automatically set the Contrast to Max when doing the calibration then set it back to 90 when done. You have to put the contrast at max or 100 in order for the patches to line up.
So this validates what Tyler said and what I saw, what did you mean with your "no" in response to my post?
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post #1065 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 04:57 PM
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So this validates what Tyler said and what I saw, what did you mean with your "no" in response to my post?

What happens if after Autocal has finished you disconnect the display & set contrast to 90.


Then you start tweaking the grayscale still working within the "Sony BRAVIA" workflow grayscale page? I will be honest this is what I have done.


I just cant get my head round why you would calibrate with contrast at Max & then after turn it down to 90 afterward.



Adjusting contrast after calibrating must induce some error?
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post #1066 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Meter is off the screen attached to the boom microphone stand about 20cm from the screen. I know the FOV of the iD3 is around 13cm but when validating my profile I got better results with the meter slightly further away from the screen.




Thanks for posting all your results, so glad I am not the only one getting these results as I think if I were I would be going slightly mad

I presume you are not creating you own meter profile with a spectro?



Also which picture mode are you using? Custom or Pro Cinema?


Finally is your meter on or off the screen? I have found out that OLED is a lot like plasma & heats up to such a degree that this can effect the meter so non-contact measurements are the best way to go.



The only downside to this is that if you cant control the ambient light in you room this may effect your results. I believe there is a feature in CalMAN to compensate for this but I have never used it as I can control all the ambient light in my room.



I am getting better results with Custom for some reason. It's like there is additional processing going on in the background on Pro Cinema even with all the processing turned off in the menus.

I have had two replies from Spectral, the one I have already posted & the other I asked about why after Autocal has finished if you do a read series you get different results, there was the response:




"That is most likely happening because, at the immediate end of the AutoCal process, the greyscale chart may not always reflect the final adjustments. That is why the Post-Calibration screen has you re-read the greyscale to get an idea of the final results.

There may also be a bit of error exaggeration, which happens near black and white when using a Gamma Log/Log chart.

At any rate, the dE numbers you are getting are well under what could be identified by a human eye."



So from what I am reading they say there is no problem because my readings are under 1 dE average & are not perceivable to the human eye. Not the response I was looking for.

I also think this is a meter issue but I cannot see what else we can do to resolve it?
Nope, not creating my own profile with a spectro. I’m using Custom. I was also wondering about the placement of the meter, so I tried on the screen, about an inch off the screen (what I normally do), and about 5” off the screen screen; I didn’t see any significant difference. The readings I posted were about an inch off the screen.

Can’t say I’m surprised by the response from Spectracal; their tech support has been going downhill IMO. I’ll try to bug them and see if I get a more informative response.
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post #1067 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 05:16 PM
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What happens if after Autocal has finished you disconnect the display & set contrast to 90.


Then you start tweaking the grayscale still working within the "Sony BRAVIA" workflow grayscale page? I will be honest this is what I have done.


I just cant get my head round why you would calibrate with contrast at Max & then after turn it down to 90 afterward.



Adjusting contrast after calibrating must induce some error?
I haven't used autocal yet, have been happy with my manual calibration, but had the same question as you.
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post #1068 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 05:48 PM
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I haven't used autocal yet, have been happy with my manual calibration, but had the same question as you.

Yeah I was happy with my manual cal too but I had to try out Autocal to see if it could do any better. Plus I did not expect the feature to come to the A1E so it was a surprise.



Do you get a dip in gamma around 92% or is it just me & RTracey?
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post #1069 of 1150 Old 02-02-2019, 06:07 PM
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Yeah I was happy with my manual cal too but I had to try out Autocal to see if it could do any better. Plus I did not expect the feature to come to the A1E so it was a surprise.



Do you get a dip in gamma around 92% or is it just me & RTracey?
I didn't get any gamma dip with my manual calibration. I did use an iPro2 spectro though for the entire calibration as I've been having issues with my meter getting different results from the spectro after profiling.
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post #1070 of 1150 Old 02-04-2019, 09:24 AM
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So here's the response I got from Spectracal (I had mentioned in my initial email that respected calibrators on the forum were able to get a flat gamma response using the autocalibration workflow, so my results were not normal):

"Results can vary from device to device, or per calibration session. So it's not completely fair for a third party to comment on a calibration they were not involved in. The results that you got from that AutoCal session are in no way bad, but a recalibration manually or via AutoCal may produce different results."

Sigh....

John, D-Nice, you guys seem to know Tyler; is there any way of getting someone who cares involved at Spectracal?

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post #1071 of 1150 Old 02-04-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
What happens if after Autocal has finished you disconnect the display & set contrast to 90.


Then you start tweaking the grayscale still working within the "Sony BRAVIA" workflow grayscale page? I will be honest this is what I have done.


I just cant get my head round why you would calibrate with contrast at Max & then after turn it down to 90 afterward.



Adjusting contrast after calibrating must induce some error?
The multipoint grayscale points do not line up unless contrast is at max. When you arrive at the grayscale page of the Sony BRAVIA workflow, contrast is set to 100, and set back to 90 when you leave that page.

I have said this in other threads but gamma is not a good metric to evaluate accuracy near black or near white because the math of the chart goes to infinity near 100% or 0%. The better way to evaluate the accuracy at the low and high end is using Delta ICTCP 720 or looking at the raw luminance target vs measured in nits. a tiny error can cause the gamma log/log graph to widely swing near 100% or 0%. I plan on changing the default of all gamma log/log graphs to the EOTF graph in CalMAN 2019. (you will still be able to change it back if you want.)

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post #1072 of 1150 Old 02-04-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
The multipoint grayscale points do not line up unless contrast is at max. When you arrive at the grayscale page of the Sony BRAVIA workflow, contrast is set to 100, and set back to 90 when you leave that page.

I have said this in other threads but gamma is not a good metric to evaluate accuracy near black or near white because the math of the chart goes to infinity near 100% or 0%. The better way to evaluate the accuracy at the low and high end is using Delta ICTCP 720 or looking at the raw luminance target vs measured in nits. a tiny error can cause the gamma log/log graph to widely swing near 100% or 0%. I plan on changing the default of all gamma log/log graphs to the EOTF graph in CalMAN 2019. (you will still be able to change it back if you want.)

Tyler
Tyler, thanks very much for the info. AdamAttewell and I have both used ICtCp_720 per D-Nice's recommendation and it doesn't seem to make any difference in the dip in gamma we're seeing at 82-92 IRE. While I appreciate your comments about the gamma swings near 100% or 0%, Jrref and others report they are not seeing this behaviour, and the only commonality I can see between AdamAttewell's and my set-up is use of the C6/i1D3. Could there be an issue between the CalMan workflow and this meter? In my case, I don't see this large dip if I do a manual calibration. Thanks for your thoughts!

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post #1073 of 1150 Old 02-04-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RTracey View Post
Tyler, thanks very much for the info. AdamAttewell and I have both used ICtCp_720 per D-Nice's recommendation and it doesn't seem to make any difference in the dip in gamma we're seeing at 82-92 IRE. While I appreciate your comments about the gamma swings near 100% or 0%, Jrref and others report they are not seeing this behaviour, and the only commonality I can see between AdamAttewell's and my set-up is use of the C6/i1D3. Could there be an issue between the CalMan workflow and this meter? In my case, I don't see this large dip if I do a manual calibration. Thanks for your thoughts!


It looks like the people that are having challenges are not using professional pattern generators. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you have to be aware that a lot of low cost options if not configured correctly, may not output the correct values or range.

The other issue is with them, is most of them you have to set to full range RGB to get the right limited range values out of them. This is fine but sometimes the TV will interpret this as a full range signal instead of limited range.

I would try forcing the Sony TV into limited range, instead of using Auto. People in the Z9F Calibration thread were running into the same issue until they did this.

Tyler
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post #1074 of 1150 Old 02-04-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It looks like the people that are having challenges are not using professional pattern generators. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you have to be aware that a lot of low cost options if not configured correctly, may not output the correct values or range.

The other issue is with them, is most of them you have to set to full range RGB to get the right limited range values out of them. This is fine but sometimes the TV will interpret this as a full range signal instead of limited range.

I would try forcing the Sony TV into limited range, instead of using Auto. People in the Z9F Calibration thread were running into the same issue until they did this.

Tyler
Thanks Tyler, that sounds like a reasonable idea, certainly worth trying out. I'm using MobileForge on a Firestick; per the instructions, I have "Video (16-235)" selected, as well as the "Expand Video to PC Levels" - is that correct? Do you know how I would force the A1E into limited range? Appreciate the help!

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post #1075 of 1150 Old 02-04-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RTracey View Post
Thanks Tyler, that sounds like a reasonable idea, certainly worth trying out. I'm using MobileForge on a Firestick; per the instructions, I have "Video (16-235)" selected, as well as the "Expand Video to PC Levels" - is that correct? Do you know how I would force the A1E into limited range? Appreciate the help!

Under advanced settings>hdmi video range> select limited



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post #1076 of 1150 Old 02-04-2019, 07:18 PM
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Thanks chunon. Interesting, because I could have sworn I looked at that setting and the CalMAN workflow forced the TV into that mode; will have to check....

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post #1077 of 1150 Old 02-05-2019, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It looks like the people that are having challenges are not using professional pattern generators. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you have to be aware that a lot of low cost options if not configured correctly, may not output the correct values or range.

The other issue is with them, is most of them you have to set to full range RGB to get the right limited range values out of them. This is fine but sometimes the TV will interpret this as a full range signal instead of limited range.

I would try forcing the Sony TV into limited range, instead of using Auto. People in the Z9F Calibration thread were running into the same issue until they did this.

Tyler

Hello Tyler thanks for all the info & feedback, I am not using a Firestick but a Lumagen Radiance which is what I would not call "low cost" so I dont think my issue is with the pattern generator. Just to confirm for the Lumagen Radiance do I set it to output RGB video or YCbCr 4:2:2?


I know the Lumagen's may have some issue outputting bit perfect color when using RGB video but from my understanding when using YCbCr 4:2:2 they are perfect, but this issue should not effect grayscale adjustments anyway.



So if I forced contrast to 90 by disconnecting the display while on the grayscale page of the Sony BRAVIA workflow would the mean the measurements displayed would be incorrect?



If so & I want to do further tweaking of the grayscale after Autocal should I leave contrast at 100 while making adjustments & then return contrast to 90 afterwards?
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post #1078 of 1150 Old 02-05-2019, 06:42 AM
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Disappointing that autocal, with a few exceptions, only appears to work well for professional calibrators. From what I've gathered here it has too many variables, and requires professional level equipment, to work properly. Is this really what Spectracal had in mind for a consumer level TV? Can't really see this as a selling point to buy CalMAN software if you haven't already. A manual calibration isn't *that* complicated or time consuming, they seem to have lost sight of that.
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post #1079 of 1150 Old 02-05-2019, 07:25 AM
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Disappointing that autocal, with a few exceptions, only appears to work well for professional calibrators. From what I've gathered here it has too many variables, and requires professional level equipment, to work properly. Is this really what Spectracal had in mind for a consumer level TV? Can't really see this as a selling point to buy CalMAN software if you haven't already. A manual calibration isn't *that* complicated or time consuming, they seem to have lost sight of that.


I have gotten great results on my A8f and do not have professional equipment , also did a friends 940e and that came out really nice . Not sure what the variable is but I am not doing anything special with my setup .



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post #1080 of 1150 Old 02-05-2019, 07:45 AM
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I have gotten great results on my A8f and do not have professional equipment , also did a friends 940e and that came out really nice . Not sure what the variable is but I am not doing anything special with my setup .
You were actually someone I had in mind when I said "with a few exceptions", but still you're using a pattern generator that isn't cheap. What autocal really needs to be consumer friendly are TVs that can generate their own patterns like the latest generation of LGs.
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