Sony A1E Calibration Thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 1149 Old 05-30-2017, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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To confirm my post on the color accuracy on the A1 and the C7, below is a scan I did today on the best I could do in setting up the CMS on a C7 compared to doing nothing except doing the best I could do on the A1 and let the look up tables do their thing. As you can see, as I mentioned, the C7 gives better color checker results than the A1 but not by much. I understand we can get into the back and forth on 25%, 50%, etc, etc, sweeps but as a "general" comparison this is a good one.

The first scan is the A1 and the second the C7.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post53293322
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post #242 of 1149 Old 05-30-2017, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I have calibrated my set in Cinema Pro then took all the settings and configured Custom and YES with the A1E with the current software, you can see there is a little more contrast and detail in Custom.
Jrref,If using a spectro (CMP) do I have to pick Judd voss 1951 as observer or default 1931 ?

Just finished reading that lightillusion page that Dnice posted in the other thread and it left me a bit confused...As it pertains to Sony using different offsets.....

I just spent all weekend calibrating at 1931 observer only I hope I didn't waste my time....thanks

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post #243 of 1149 Old 05-30-2017, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post
Jrref,If using a spectro (CMP) do I have to pick Judd voss 1951 as observer or default 1931 ?

Just finished reading that lightillusion page that Dnice posted in the other thread and it left me a bit confused...As it pertains to Sony using different offsets.....

I just spent all weekend calibrating at 1931 observer only I hope I didn't waste my time....thanks
For the current OLEDs that use WRGB in the A1 and the LGs, you need to use the standard Color space target of D65, HD BT.709 and not Judd Voss and 1931 observer.

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post #244 of 1149 Old 05-30-2017, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
For the current OLEDs that use WRGB in the A1 and the LGs, you need to use the standard Color space target of D65, HD BT.709 and not Judd Voss and 1931 observer.
Ok 313/329 ...... Its that using HCFR,when using a spectro there is a drop down in the meters section which has default which would be 1931 and has various Judd Vos and other names that you could use....So I calibrated with it at it default setting....

Btw which pattern is best for setting color ?...I tried 100%/100% primary and secondary and the numbers would change when I would remeasure .I think abl was the culprit....So I switched to 75%/75% and the measurements were more stable..Thanks

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post #245 of 1149 Old 05-30-2017, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post
Ok 313/329 ...... Its that using HCFR,when using a spectro there is a drop down in the meters section which has default which would be 1931 and has various Judd Vos and other names that you could use....So I calibrated with it at it default setting....

Btw which pattern is best for setting color ?...I tried 100%/100% primary and secondary and the numbers would change when I would remeasure .I think abl was the culprit....So I switched to 75%/75% and the measurements were more stable..Thanks
Well I haven't used HCFR but I would believe 1931 would be the default setting. Also on the CMS for the OLEDs, we always use 75/75%.
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post #246 of 1149 Old 05-30-2017, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
To confirm my post on the color accuracy on the A1 and the C7, below is a scan I did today on the best I could do in setting up the CMS on a C7 compared to doing nothing except doing the best I could do on the A1 and let the look up tables do their thing. As you can see, as I mentioned, the C7 gives better color checker results than the A1 but not by much. I understand we can get into the back and forth on 25%, 50%, etc, etc, sweeps but as a "general" comparison this is a good one.

The first scan is the A1 and the second the C7.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post53293322
Lower luminance/saturation levels matter more than the 75/100%.
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post #247 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
To confirm my post on the color accuracy on the A1 and the C7, below is a scan I did today on the best I could do in setting up the CMS on a C7 compared to doing nothing except doing the best I could do on the A1 and let the look up tables do their thing. As you can see, as I mentioned, the C7 gives better color checker results than the A1 but not by much. I understand we can get into the back and forth on 25%, 50%, etc, etc, sweeps but as a "general" comparison this is a good one.
I noticed that the Sony is setup almost 50% brighter. Isn't that going to affect the results somewhat as more load is shifted to the unfiltered white sub-pixels?

Also, agree with D-Nice that the lower stimulus levels is where things get interesting because that's where OLEDs have traditionally struggled most with color accuracy. I've only inspected a C7 visually but it seemed much improved over the E6 in terms of over-saturating darker colors. A1E was on the other side of the store so wasn't able to do a direct comparison.
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post #248 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
I noticed that the Sony is setup almost 50% brighter. Isn't that going to affect the results somewhat as more load is shifted to the unfiltered white sub-pixels?

Also, agree with D-Nice that the lower stimulus levels is where things get interesting because that's where OLEDs have traditionally struggled most with color accuracy. I've only inspected a C7 visually but it seemed much improved over the E6 in terms of over-saturating darker colors. A1E was on the other side of the store so wasn't able to do a direct comparison.
That's not the point. The point is that the Sony with no CMS controls can deliver CMS accuracy pretty close to the LG with CMS controls. It's also true that the lower stimulus levels are important but even with LGs CMS controls, you can make the accuracy a little better there as well but not by much without effecting the other ranges. What we really need are separate CMS controls for 25, 50, 75 and 100% lol! Maybe we will get that some day.

As far as the brightness, you are correct. I took these scans on two different occasions but I suspect that if I lowered the luminance on the Sony by 50%, note that's still pretty bright, that the color checker results would improve further proving my point.

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post #249 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I have calibrated my set in Cinema Pro then took all the settings and configured Custom and YES with the A1E with the current software, you can see there is a little more contrast and detail in Custom.
Thank you, John! I would not have expected there to be a difference, so I'm glad I asked.

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I really don't know but HDR Custom give a slight bit more peak luminance because I think it rolls off a tad bit later. I'll post my scans when I get a chance. Overall, I decided to use Cinema pro with Gamma -2 and I have the brightness set slightly different with Expert 1 and Expert 2 for my viewing.
If you were observing better contrast and detail in Custom, may I ask why you ended up going with Cinema Pro?
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post #250 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, John! I would not have expected there to be a difference, so I'm glad I asked.


If you were observing better contrast and detail in Custom, may I ask why you ended up going with Cinema Pro?
I tried both Cinema Pro and Custom and settled on Custom in the end because I normally watch in a brighter room. My preference is to use Cinema Pro if you watch in a dark or near dark room because it gives you a little "smoother" "movie like" picture and Custom in a brighter room with a little more detail. They are both good and very close so you can't go wrong with either mode.

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post #251 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 05:53 AM
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It would also be interesting to see impact of WRGB pixel structure and how much saturation is lost in HDR at and near maximum brightness levels
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post #252 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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It would also be interesting to see impact of WRGB pixel structure and how much saturation is lost in HDR at and near maximum brightness levels
It's interesting because in taking color volume scans, the OLEDs are preforming quite well compared to some of the results I've seen posted on some of the popular LCD sets. When i'm done, i'll post some of the results.

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post #253 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
It's interesting because in taking color volume scans, the OLEDs are preforming quite well compared to some of the results I've seen posted on some of the popular LCD sets. When i'm done, i'll post some of the results.
cool! If rtings is to be believed, a lot of the great color volume performance is due to the outstanding low light capabilities of oled. You can see the lower part of their 3d plots is more filled out than what the best LCD can manage.

Looking forward to the graphs!
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post #254 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 10:00 AM
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What we really need are separate CMS controls for 25, 50, 75 and 100% lol! Maybe we will get that some day.
Sad part is that what you're asking for already exists on all these sets. We know LG uses a 17x17x17 LUT internally to manage CMS. I suspect Sony does as well. Unfortunately, none of them except Panasonic is going to expose that for user access. That's really the only practical solution and would even cover calibration of internal apps like Netflix, etc. which you can't do with an external 3DLUT. You would also not need to deal with the broken calibration controls that most manufacturers suffer from.
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post #255 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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OK so here is the first A1 vs C7 Color Volume scan results that I did today. Both sets were calibrated with the same Klein K10A meter profiled to the same i1Pro2 using an updated Murideo 6G generator with the beta release of Calman. A1 was using HDR Custom and the C7 HDR Cinema(User). The peak luminance on the A1 with 10% window was 650 nits, the C7 700 nits. (just worked out that way given a nit or two).

One disclaimer, I followed Spectracal's work flow instructions and did a LAB scan with 4-40 and 10% patterns at Relative and 1000 nits.

Interesting that the C7 did slightly better than the A1 on the ICtCP scan but the A1 did better than the C7 on the LAB scans. There didn't seem to be much difference on the C7 using 4-40 vs 10% windows and Relative vs 1000 nits. And Yes I didn't do a 4000 nit scan because I know that the tone mapping between these sets is different and wasn't sure that it was a valid test.

Since these scans take a long time to run, I don't know what the variances are in Calman between runs but it looked like the A1 did better percentage wise than the C7 given the large number of samples in the ICtCp scan and the small difference leads you to believe that they were "essentially" the same but on the LAB tests, the difference was a little larger which means that the A1 was hitting more of the P3 and 2020 points.

Also if you look closely at the target boxes on the ICtCp scans, the A1 seems to be hitting them better or more accurately in some cases than the C7.

Again, I don't want to argue the results since we don't have a lot of samples to compare to yet and I have no idea if the human eye can perceive two sets side by side with these results, but it's a good first step in comparing the two sets with another data point.
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post #256 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW here are the 25, 50, 75, and 100% scans for the A1 and C7.

I Updated the 25% A1 sweeps to the correct scan.
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post #257 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 05:48 PM
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I will be doing a 20 point grayscale and saturation sweep of my A1E within the hour to compare the accuracy of the i1pro 2 and i1pro rev D to the PR-670..... no Kleins involved. Stay tuned.....
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post #258 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
BTW here are the 25, 50, 75, and 100% scans for the A1 and C7.
awesome, thanks for sharing. I viewed your posts on my phone so maybe I didn't see, but these scans don't seem to corroborate the narrative of RGBW oled significantly losing saturation at high brightness levels in HDR.

Do you agree?
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post #259 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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awesome, thanks for sharing. I viewed your posts on my phone so maybe I didn't see, but these scans don't seem to corroborate the narrative of RGBW oled significantly losing saturation at high brightness levels in HDR.

Do you agree?
It doesn't seem too bad but we need to see more scans to know for sure.
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post #260 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 08:49 PM
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Here is the comparison. The i1Pro appears more accurate (sic) than the i1Pro 2 for Grayscale measurements. However, the i1Pro 2 is more accurate (sic) than the i1Pro when measuring the Gamut. Overall, I would be cautious when using either as a reference.
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post #261 of 1149 Old 05-31-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
BTW here are the 25, 50, 75, and 100% scans for the A1 and C7.
I think I prefer the A1E. Even with saturation errors, the A1E at least follows a straighter line. Don't like where the C7 is headed if you extrapolate what's happening at 25% stim and imagine what it's going to look like at 10%, 5%, etc.
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post #262 of 1149 Old 06-01-2017, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
BTW here are the 25, 50, 75, and 100% scans for the A1 and C7.
Hi John,

Please take a look the A1 25%, it's actually the same image file with 100%, at 25% Luminance level all the bars and dots in CIE Chart need to have dark shades

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Here is the comparison. The i1Pro appears ....snip...
Using alternate white point???
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post #264 of 1149 Old 06-01-2017, 02:58 AM
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Hi John,

Please take a look the A1 25%, it's actually the same image file with 100%, at 25% Luminance level all the bars and dots in CIE Chart need to have dark shades
Correct.
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Using alternate white point???
No
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post #266 of 1149 Old 06-01-2017, 04:22 AM
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So how did the picture look?
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post #267 of 1149 Old 06-01-2017, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=D-Nice;53354386]Here is the comparison. The i1Pro appears more accurate (sic) than the i1Pro 2 for Grayscale measurements. However, the i1Pro 2 is more accurate (sic) than the i1Pro when measuring the Gamut. Overall, I would be cautious when using either as a reference.[/QUOTE

D, thanks for doing this very detailed work. Really appreciate it The PR-670 is a 1 NM device where the i1Pro's are 10 NM devices so given that, the i1Pro is doing a very good job for non-production calibration. For production, I agree, a 5 NM or 1 NM reference device is needed along with it's magnitude higher cost.

Also, I thought that the i1Pro and the i1Pro2 are essentially the same devices with the i1Pro2 being more stable longer? I wasn't surprised that there are some slight variances between the two units that you have. What I do notice is that the PR-670 and the i1Pro2 CMS sweeps "look" almost identical where the i1Pro2 varies a little, especially in Magenta. I know if you look at the numbers which is the reference, that it shows the Pro's very close but it is an observation that I wanted to point out.

It's good to see that you were getting "relatively" good results on your A1, especially with the CMS given that there are no controls.

What did you think of my color volume scans?
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post #268 of 1149 Old 06-01-2017, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=ConnecTEDDD;53356234]Hi John,

Please take a look the A1 25%, it's actually the same image file with 100%, at 25% Luminance level all the bars and dots in CIE Chart need to have dark shades [/QUOTE

Ted,
Thanks, I have so many scans that I may have mixed one up but i'll check and re-post that slide. We were talking about color accuracy on the A1 without CMS controls compared to the C7 with CMS controls and I wanted to post all the scans and to show that they are pretty close regardless of the CMS control situation. It's great that LG has pretty good calibration controls finally but it would be better if Sony fixed theirs and added CMS to further fine tune their sets, but given the state that they are in now, an experienced calibrator can make them both look the same to the human eye, even a "trained" one

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post #269 of 1149 Old 06-01-2017, 06:50 AM
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[quote=jrref;53359218]
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi John,

Please take a look the A1 25%, it's actually the same image file with 100%, at 25% Luminance level all the bars and dots in CIE Chart need to have dark shades [/QUOTE

Ted,
Thanks, I have so many scans that I may have mixed one up but i'll check and re-post that slide. We were talking about color accuracy on the A1 without CMS controls compared to the C7 with CMS controls and I wanted to post all the scans I wanted to show that they are pretty close regardless of the CMS control situation. It's great that LG has pretty good calibration controls finally but it would be better if Sony fixed theirs and added CMS to further fine tune their sets, but given the state that they are in now, an experienced calibrator can make them both look the same to the human eye, even a "trained" one
Hi John,

I believe that Sony will never add CMS controls, there no Sony model in it's display history equipped with CMS controls, only Color/Tint they had.

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post #270 of 1149 Old 06-01-2017, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=ConnecTEDDD;53359298]
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Hi John,

I believe that Sony will never add CMS controls, there no Sony model in it's display history equipped with CMS controls, only Color/Tint they had.
Yes I know, probably because they "feel" that their system is "good enough" for consumer sets and the slides comparing the A1 to the C7 prove this speculation.

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