Sony XBR-65A1E UHD HDR OLED TV Review - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 07:15 AM
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...and I see that rtings.com has a Sony A1E in house for testing so we'll soon see an exponentially better comparison between the C7 and the Sony than the one from ABT.

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post #92 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
Though there's debate on the extent of the improvements between the 2016 and 2017 LG OLED displays one is said to be with shadow detail. And of course another is said to be the brightness. Your side by side comparison is with the E6 and not a 2017 OLED.


You act like he hasn't seen or calibrated a 2017 get off the hype train dude .


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post #93 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
You act like he hasn't seen or calibrated a 2017 get off the hype train dude .
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I'm not hyping anything, John himself has opined that near black detail is slightly better with the 2017 LG models so it was a distinction I felt that needed to be pointed out.

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post #94 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
I'm not hyping anything, John himself has pointed out that near black detail is slightly better with the 2017 models so it was a distinction I felt that needed to be pointed out.

Okay if an E6 is so close then a 2017 would be even closer by that logic I don't understand your point really. I think his main point is if you calibrate a 2016 properly a put it next to the Sony calibrated it is virtually identical. The 2017(slightly or largely improved opinions vary) would fare the same or better than the 2016 .



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post #95 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
You guys really need to be a little more objective. I've got both sets side by side, same content, both calibrated. I can tell you:
1) Calibrated or not, the near black detail is slightly better on the A1 as you can see in the video clearly.
2) In order to compare the LG and the A1, XDR has to be set on High and Enhanced contrast to Medium to get the luminance level equivalence regardless of calibration. They may have left the A1 XDR on Medium, the default.
3) You are right, they probably only calibrated the 2Pt on both because I noticed that the oceans on both sets were slightly different shades if blue. Trust me, because it calibrated both sets, once you do the 2 and 10 pt gray scale, 20 pt on the LG, the colors are identical. Saturation very very close. I got both panels so close that I could have used them side by side in a grid display.
4) Finally, Sony's processing brightens the specular highlights of the picture which makes it look brighter although reviewers say the LG measures slightly brighter. I've spent a lot of time with a lot of content and I can prove it if you came to my house, lol, and cab say this is the case 100%. You will only notice this when the sets are side by side because they both look great apart.
Some of you guys are the experts on calibration not me so thanks for your input on this.

From what I've been reading the 2017 LG's have better shadow details than the 2016 LG's. So, if you had a 2017 LG OLED to compare with the A1E side by side instead of an 2016 E6 I think that you are using, the shadow details should be pretty much equal on both once calibrated? Is that your estimate as well? I think you calibrated some 2017 LG's already? Probably less easy to tell if you don't own them side by side though.

In any case they both are great I'm still undecided between C7 and A1E being a gamer.
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post #96 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 08:23 AM
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Okay if an E6 is so close then a 2017 would be even closer by that logic I don't understand your point really. I think his main point is if you calibrate a 2016 properly a put it next to the Sony calibrated it is virtually identical. The 2017(slightly or largely improved opinions vary) would fare the same or better than the 2016 .
John is pointing out the A1E has slightly better shadow detail than his E6, my point is that this may not necessarily hold true with a 2017 OLED or the slight difference may be even smaller.

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post #97 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 08:28 AM
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Some of you guys are the experts on calibration not me so thanks for your input on this.

From what I've been reading the 2017 LG's have better shadow details than the 2016 LG's. So, if you had a 2017 LG OLED to compare with the A1E side by side instead of an 2016 E6 I think that you are using, the shadow details should be pretty much equal on both once calibrated? Is that your estimate as well? I think you calibrated some 2017 LG's already? Probably less easy to tell if you don't own them side by side though.

In any case they both are great I'm still undecided between C7 and A1E being a gamer.
That's my point as well but stated more clearly.

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post #98 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
John's is pointing out the A1E has slightly better shadow than his E6, my point is that may not necessarily hold true with a 2017 OLED or the slight difference may be even smaller.
okay but calibrated all the sets would be very close , not like one of them is an led. now we are splitting hairs .




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post #99 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
You guys really need to be a little more objective. I've got both sets side by side, same content, both calibrated. I can tell you:
1) Calibrated or not, the near black detail is slightly better on the A1 as you can see in the video clearly.
2) In order to compare the LG and the A1, XDR has to be set on High and Enhanced contrast to Medium to get the luminance level equivalence regardless of calibration. They may have left the A1 XDR on Medium, the default.
3) You are right, they probably only calibrated the 2Pt on both because I noticed that the oceans on both sets were slightly different shades if blue. Trust me, because it calibrated both sets, once you do the 2 and 10 pt gray scale, 20 pt on the LG, the colors are identical. Saturation very very close. I got both panels so close that I could have used them side by side in a grid display.
4) Finally, Sony's processing brightens the specular highlights of the picture which makes it look brighter although reviewers say the LG measures slightly brighter. I've spent a lot of time with a lot of content and I can prove it if you came to my house, lol, and cab say this is the case 100%. You will only notice this when the sets are side by side because they both look great apart.
Thanks. Please set your calibrated 2017 C7 model or whatever it is next to your E6 and tell us if they have the exact same shadow detail, or is it improved on the 7 models vs. last year's 6 series. Of course you can make any panel have better shadow detail if you compromise the perfect blacks or increase the noise floor significantly using a 2.2 gamma setting instead of BT.1886 or 2.4, and raising the brightness several clicks.

The folks with brightness set at 50-52 on their 2016 LG's with 2.4 gamma are noticeably crushing blacks, and masking some of the noise/macroblocking, at least, but not all of it.
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post #100 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
John is pointing out the A1E has slightly better shadow detail than his E6, my point is that may not necessarily hold true with a 2017 OLED or the slight difference may be even smaller.
Oh, you mean John doesn't have a 2017 LG OLED next to the A1E only a 2016 E6? The Abt comparison were both 2017's and one can easily see more shadow detail on the Sony A1E vs. the E7 in the video.

I set my C6 next to my Sony LED's and the 2016 LG definitely crushes blacks. I don't know how it compares to the 2017. I just bought another C6 just to toy with (latest March '17 build). I will unbox it today, update FW, and perform some more side by side comparisons using my Z9D on Planet Earth II and other HDR material, but it will have to break-in and the black levels settle in a bit before it can be calibrated/compared definitively.

My last C6 was lacking shadow detail compared to my Sony LEDs (even after I moved brightness up to 55-57) just like in the Abt video there is visibly less shadow detail on the E7 compared to the A1E. Don't know how they set those two up however. Perhaps they did not set the brightness level correctly, or did not have the same gamma settings on both.
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post #101 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
...and I see that rtings.com has a Sony A1E in house for testing so we'll soon see an exponentially better comparison between the C7 and the Sony than the one from ABT.
Sorry Charlie, but rtings simply do not fully know what they are doing. I am sure they are nice guys over there and all, and some of their measurements and patterns are useful and interesting, but they have demonstrated that they do not know how to set up their displays properly, they do not spend nearly enough time with them, but do a quick turn around, and they also think they can tell which is best by simply running a barrage of test patterns on a tv and using some sort of numbers calculation to spit out a conclusion as to which is best. They need to spend more time side by side watching identical content to be taken seriously.

Rtings gave the B6 a 9.1 rating for motion, and the E6 an even higher 9.3 rating, and they gave the B6/E6 the exact same upscaling rating for 480/720/1080/4k as the 930E and the Z9D, which both use the X1 Extreme.

Does this jive with reality? Most everyone who has experienced a Sony with the X1 Extreme raves about how much nicer the processing is on the Sony compared to their LG OLED. Is that reflected anywhere in the Rtings reviews of the 2016 LG OLED? Is the shadow detail and above black handling issues mentioned or reflected in their review? Nope. Nowhere are any above black issues ever mentioned on the 2016 LG OLEDs and Rtings says that the 2017s are hardly any different and not worth buying over the 2016s. I have to conclude that they are just plain oblivious. Vincent Teoh at HDTVtest noticed all these things and is a much better calibrator and much more discerning than the folks over at Rtings.

Seeing how many owners and reviewers absolutely notice the poor processing/upscaling, black crush, noise, etc. and Rtings doesn't seem to have a clue about any of this, I have to conclude that Rtings, nice guys and all, just do not fully know what they are doing just yet.

The 2016 B and E LG OLEDs are given a 9.1 and a 9.3 rating for motion despite the many complaints about skipping/tearing and judder issues and only delivering 300 lines without TruMotion on, which many people turn off, because it introduced so many artifacts.

2016 LG OLED gets a 9 for motion, and the Z9D gets a 6.4? I have to conclude they simply do not know what they are talking about, and do not know how to set up their displays correctly, since owners and reviewers find the motion on the Z9D quite good, and there are hardly any complaints (aside from some occasional smearing, which I have been fully disclosing all over AVS in various threads).

They say they used the custom mode on the Z9D, even though Sony themselves recommends that consumers use Cinema Pro or Cinema Home, since custom mode is set to hard clip and has completely different processing characteristics.

They simply do not know what they are doing, running contrast at a MAX on the Sony and 100 on the LG OLEDs they review!

"In the 'Motion' tab setting, we left the 'Motionflow' and 'Cinemotion' turned off"

No wonder they gave the Sony such a low motion score. They turned all motion processing off. They simply do not know what they are doing!

Amateur hour over at Rtings. Sorry, I am sure they are pleasant fellows that work hard over there, but come on, I can't take them seriously.

Go over to HDTVtest. Vincent actually knows what he is doing, and they give plenty of settings and measurements to go along with their very discerning pair of eyes.

Those clowns at Sony are so stupid for not sending HDTVtest, one of the very best review sites out there, an A1E to review. They should have taken the one they sent to the thoroughly discredited Torben Rasmussen at FlatpanelsHD, and given it to the much better reviewers over at HDTVtest.
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post #102 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 12:31 PM
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BIG problem with all reviews, they aren't what they'll be after 1000 hours in use!
As owners, we all know, as time of usage goes on, either things get better, or, if unlucky, get worse.
Reason for the Owners Forums - we put on the hours, and get to see the results, and post what we find.
Reviews can only give an overview of the from out of the box, not the reality of usage.
Why fence sitters wait and see how the `have to have it now' Members fare.

John is comparing an `out of the box', with his seasoned E6.
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post #103 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 01:42 PM
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Ugh, I jumped on that early, criticizing both premature "reviews", Amazon ended up deleting my comments and left the "reviews" intact, frustrating.
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post #104 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 03:47 PM
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Oh, you mean John doesn't have a 2017 LG OLED next to the A1E only a 2016 E6? The Abt comparison were both 2017's and one can easily see more shadow detail on the Sony A1E vs. the E7 in the video.

I set my C6 next to my Sony LED's and the 2016 LG definitely crushes blacks. I don't know how it compares to the 2017. I just bought another C6 just to toy with (latest March '17 build). I will unbox it today, update FW, and perform some more side by side comparisons using my Z9D on Planet Earth II and other HDR material, but it will have to break-in and the black levels settle in a bit before it can be calibrated/compared definitively.

My last C6 was lacking shadow detail compared to my Sony LEDs (even after I moved brightness up to 55-57) just like in the Abt video there is visibly less shadow detail on the E7 compared to the A1E. Don't know how they set those two up however. Perhaps they did not set the brightness level correctly, or did not have the same gamma settings on both.
Right so I clarified this a while back. My E6 is calibrated where i'm using Chadb's method of raising the black level in Calman slightly so that the set comes out of black faster, improving near black detail greatly. It doesn't fix the noise in low ire content but it works since side by side with the A1, they are very close. Also I've spent time with a W7 and calibrating a C7 so I know what the improvements are over the 2016s and know what to look for.

As far as the age of the E6 panel, once you re-calibrate it, you bring it back to a known brightness, etc.. and I calibrated both the A1 and the E6 with the same Klein K10A profiled to my i1Pro2.

So while my specific test may not be 100% since I don't have a C7 beside my A1, the test with the E6 confirms some of the methods I use to calibrate to make the E6 PQ better, and based on what I have seen on several C7's, gives me an indication of a fairly good comparison.
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post #105 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
John is pointing out the A1E has slightly better shadow detail than his E6, my point is that this may not necessarily hold true with a 2017 OLED or the slight difference may be even smaller.
That's a fair assumption. From what I have observed, the C7 is very close to the A1 and an E6 that has been properly calibrated to manage the near black detail. Yes the C7 and the A1 are going to have a slightly better picture than the E6, but it's an incremental bump and not one where I would get rid of my 2016 set. The improvements are noted several posts back.

The one big thing that the ABT video shows and we have demonstrated in the Value Electronics showroom, is that the Sony does some "unique" picture processing to make the highlights in both SDR and HDR brighter, even though, all the professional reviewers measured the LG slightly higher. Because of this, the A1, looks slightly brighter. Also, we looked at some test video in the showroom today and the A1 does a slightly better job at tone mapping HDR content than the W7 that we compared it to. I can't explain it here. It's something you need to see in person.

So bottom line, you can't go wrong with the C7 or the A1, both sets are excellent and I wouldn't throw away my 2016 LG because although it has some issues, properly calibrated with the proper techniques, it is very close to the 2017 sets.

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post #106 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
That's a fair assumption. From what I have observed, the C7 is very close to the A1 and an E6 that has been properly calibrated to manage the near black detail. Yes the C7 and the A1 are going to have a slightly better picture than the E6, but it's an incremental bump and not one where I would get rid of my 2016 set. The improvements are noted several posts back.



The one big thing that the ABT video shows and we have demonstrated in the Value Electronics showroom, is that the Sony does some "unique" picture processing to make the highlights in both SDR and HDR brighter, even though, all the professional reviewers measured the LG slightly higher. Because of this, the A1, looks slightly brighter. Also, we looked at some test video in the showroom today and the A1 does a slightly better job at tone mapping HDR content than the W7 that we compared it to. I can't explain it here. It's something you need to see in person.



So bottom line, you can't go wrong with the C7 or the A1, both sets are excellent and I wouldn't throw away my 2016 LG because although it has some issues, properly calibrated with the proper techniques, it is very close to the 2017 sets.
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I find that the complaint on the stand might be from people who haven't seen the the TV in real life. The design is not what people are used to hence the hesitation. This usually happens when design moves in a direction we are not used to and a design we don't generally associate with a particular product category. It's human nature.

My issue is not the stand per se but the fact that with this solution you have to have the display pulled much closer to the front of the table it sits on. I mount all of my displays now but prior I always wanted them pushed back as close as possible to the back wall. I hate the look of these sets pulled forward as the pictures I have seen represents. I don't like all that viewing space from the side when entering a room. Small issue I know but it would annoy the crap out me..


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post #108 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 06:43 PM
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My issue is not the stand per se but the fact that with this solution you have to have the display pulled much closer to the front of the table it sits on. I mount all of my displays now but prior I always wanted them pushed back as close as possible to the back wall. I hate the look of these sets pulled forward as the pictures I have seen represents. I don't like all that viewing space from the side when entering a room. Small issue I know but it would annoy the crap out me..


Small issues..


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post #109 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 07:39 PM
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BIG problem with all reviews, they aren't what they'll be after 1000 hours in use!
As owners, we all know, as time of usage goes on, either things get better, or, if unlucky, get worse.
Reason for the Owners Forums - we put on the hours, and get to see the results, and post what we find.
Reviews can only give an overview of the from out of the box, not the reality of usage.
Why fence sitters wait and see how the `have to have it now' Members fare.

John is comparing an `out of the box', with his seasoned E6.
Peter, I did both. Compared out of the box then I calibrated the A1 after about 50 hours. Not really enough but I wanted to see what it looked like.

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post #110 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 09:05 PM
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Nice write-up. Looks like it could be a real nice set tho pricey.

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post #111 of 382 Old 04-29-2017, 10:32 PM
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So bottom line, you can't go wrong with the C7 or the A1, both sets are excellent and I wouldn't throw away my 2016 LG because although it has some issues, properly calibrated with the proper techniques, it is very close to the 2017 sets.
I spent some time today at a Magnolia in LA looking at the C7, A1, x930E and Z9D with the lights dimmed and all Sony sets to Cinema Pro mode and the LG set to ISF mode. We viewed various BluRay SDR footage. The C7 and A1 looked nearly identical to my eyes. And they looked great. The Z9 was brightest and showed the most shadow detail but the x930E held its own and them some to the Z. Honestly, the x930E looked nearly identical to the Z, and both Sony LCDs looked great too. But, the OLEDs beat both the Z and x930E for the various SDR content that I viewed; not by much, they just had an overall contrast that was better but it's by a pretty slim margin in my book. This is just an eyeball test, but it's my eyes that count since it's going to be my purchase ;-)
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post #112 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 03:31 AM
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I can't help but think that maybe this supposed better shadow detail is just backlight glow (who can say how much of this detail near black is supposed be visible?).
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post #113 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Consider the source before you begin to hyperventilate at the prospects (CLEDIS is the best TV this year, but you can't buy it).
You can buy the consumer version of the CLEDIS display in 2-4 years from now!

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1477048275
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post #114 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 10:35 AM
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Just set up in the store, stand angle not as bad as i thought and barely noticeable from the front. A piece of art for sure, the back glass is fantastic looking and the acoustic glass may be a "gimmick" but it works fantastically well.
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post #115 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
Sorry Charlie, but rtings simply do not fully know what they are doing. I am sure they are nice guys over there and all, and some of their measurements and patterns are useful and interesting, but they have demonstrated that they do not know how to set up their displays properly, they do not spend nearly enough time with them, but do a quick turn around, and they also think they can tell which is best by simply running a barrage of test patterns on a tv and using some sort of numbers calculation to spit out a conclusion as to which is best. They need to spend more time side by side watching identical content to be taken seriously.

Rtings gave the B6 a 9.1 rating for motion, and the E6 an even higher 9.3 rating, and they gave the B6/E6 the exact same upscaling rating for 480/720/1080/4k as the 930E and the Z9D, which both use the X1 Extreme.

Does this jive with reality? Most everyone who has experienced a Sony with the X1 Extreme raves about how much nicer the processing is on the Sony compared to their LG OLED. Is that reflected anywhere in the Rtings reviews of the 2016 LG OLED? Is the shadow detail and above black handling issues mentioned or reflected in their review? Nope. Nowhere are any above black issues ever mentioned on the 2016 LG OLEDs and Rtings says that the 2017s are hardly any different and not worth buying over the 2016s. I have to conclude that they are just plain oblivious. Vincent Teoh at HDTVtest noticed all these things and is a much better calibrator and much more discerning than the folks over at Rtings.

Seeing how many owners and reviewers absolutely notice the poor processing/upscaling, black crush, noise, etc. and Rtings doesn't seem to have a clue about any of this, I have to conclude that Rtings, nice guys and all, just do not fully know what they are doing just yet.

The 2016 B and E LG OLEDs are given a 9.1 and a 9.3 rating for motion despite the many complaints about skipping/tearing and judder issues and only delivering 300 lines without TruMotion on, which many people turn off, because it introduced so many artifacts.

2016 LG OLED gets a 9 for motion, and the Z9D gets a 6.4? I have to conclude they simply do not know what they are talking about, and do not know how to set up their displays correctly, since owners and reviewers find the motion on the Z9D quite good, and there are hardly any complaints (aside from some occasional smearing, which I have been fully disclosing all over AVS in various threads).

They say they used the custom mode on the Z9D, even though Sony themselves recommends that consumers use Cinema Pro or Cinema Home, since custom mode is set to hard clip and has completely different processing characteristics.

They simply do not know what they are doing, running contrast at a MAX on the Sony and 100 on the LG OLEDs they review!

"In the 'Motion' tab setting, we left the 'Motionflow' and 'Cinemotion' turned off"

No wonder they gave the Sony such a low motion score. They turned all motion processing off. They simply do not know what they are doing!

Amateur hour over at Rtings. Sorry, I am sure they are pleasant fellows that work hard over there, but come on, I can't take them seriously.

Go over to HDTVtest. Vincent actually knows what he is doing, and they give plenty of settings and measurements to go along with their very discerning pair of eyes.

Those clowns at Sony are so stupid for not sending HDTVtest, one of the very best review sites out there, an A1E to review. They should have taken the one they sent to the thoroughly discredited Torben Rasmussen at FlatpanelsHD, and given it to the much better reviewers over at HDTVtest.
Did you ask the people at Rtings about your concerns? They regularly respond to questions on the site.
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post #116 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 08:00 PM
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77" A1E Price

Looks like the price for now on the 77" Sony A1E will be $14,999.00. Check out the Sony Premium Website below. Lower price for A1E starting out then the 77" LG G7.

http://www.sonypremiumhome.com/premi...vision/A1E.php
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post #117 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rrollens View Post
Looks like the price for now on the 77" Sony A1E will be $14,999.00. Check out the Sony Premium Website below. Lower price for A1E starting out then the 77" LG G7.



http://www.sonypremiumhome.com/premi...vision/A1E.php


Maybe a2e will be $13999 and hdmi 2.1. 120hz 4k gaming would be nuts


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post #118 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 08:54 PM
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Great price for the 77". The uniformity needs to be a bit better (or the price needs to keep coming down) than the G6.
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post #119 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 09:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrollens View Post
Looks like the price for now on the 77" Sony A1E will be $14,999.00. Check out the Sony Premium Website below. Lower price for A1E starting out then the 77" LG G7.

http://www.sonypremiumhome.com/premi...vision/A1E.php
Also cheaper than the G7 at 65", so no surprise really.

Last edited by paranoyd androyd; 04-30-2017 at 09:56 PM.
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post #120 of 382 Old 04-30-2017, 09:52 PM
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Sony XBR-65A1E UHD HDR OLED TV Review

MSRP OF 15K is good news. Lets see by the end of the year how much we can chip off of it?
Lets see if we can have Chris from Cleveland and Robert from VE comment here that what the dealers min price and when the set will be available?
May be i shall have to sell a kidney lol


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Last edited by zibaji; 04-30-2017 at 09:56 PM.
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