Sony A1E OLED TV - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 41 Old 05-12-2017, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony A1E OLED TV

Calibrator David Abrams talks about his studio environment and measurement and calibration process, followed by a detailed analysis of the Sony A1E OLED TV. We talk about the X-tended Dynamic Range control and what it does, then take a close look at the grayscale and color measurements in standard dynamic range (SDR) at different window sizes and settings of X-tended Dynamic Range as well as the grayscale and color measurements in HDR with a 10% window and X-tended Dynamic Range set to High. Plus answers to chat-room questions and more.

https://www.avsforum.com/sony-a1e-4k-hdr-oled-tv/
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post #2 of 41 Old 05-12-2017, 03:52 PM
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Interesting comments around 33:56 regarding tone mapping and calibrating with it off and then "turning it on".

I noticed on my Sony z9d that in HDR, Custom and Cinema Pro track EOTF equally, until Cinema Pro starts rolling off, while Custom Hard clips. So maybe in theory we have what David was suggesting in that we could calibrate and make whatever adjustments needed in custom mode and then port them over to Cinema Pro mode to get the benefits of the tone mapping.

Great interview thanks!
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post #3 of 41 Old 05-12-2017, 04:12 PM
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Great episode. Interesting findings on the A1E. Also, really like Dave Abrams. Loved his work on my Pioneer Elite Plasma and I'll be having him calibrate my OLED hopefully soon. It was supposed to happen earlier this year, but unforeseen things came up on my end and I had to put it off.

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post #4 of 41 Old 05-12-2017, 04:17 PM
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post #5 of 41 Old 05-12-2017, 04:33 PM
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David Abrams also did my Pioneer Elite back in the day. Definitely another recommended pro (on the west coast but also travels, or at least did several years ago).
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post #6 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Calibrator David Abrams talks about his studio environment and measurement and calibration process, followed by a detailed analysis of the Sony A1E OLED TV. We talk about the X-tended Dynamic Range control and what it does, then take a close look at the grayscale and color measurements in standard dynamic range (SDR) at different window sizes and settings of X-tended Dynamic Range as well as the grayscale and color measurements in HDR with a 10% window and X-tended Dynamic Range set to High. Plus answers to chat-room questions and more.

https://www.avsforum.com/sony-a1e-4k-hdr-oled-tv/
Hi Scott. What probes were you using? CR100? CR250 profiled CR100? Klien k10?, Jeti? C6HDR?

And could you show pictures on the sets with and without 3D lut. I'm using eecolor LUT box and it is a groovy thing.

Also 3D LUT creation with lightspace, rather than calman - which would provide viewers with an excellent demonstration of the color volume of the sets.
Cheers

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post #7 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 05:19 AM
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I was disappointed that you ran out of time before being able to talk about watching actual content. You guys put in a lot of work, did it make a significant difference in picture quality? How was the viewing experience? Did you see anything that bothered you, such as uniformity, motion, etc? Did the A1E give you a "gotta have it" feeling?
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post #8 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 06:59 AM
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definiately the biggest n baddest TV of 2017...sure thang winner of the shootout....gotta stay sony strong 4 2018 when the good stuff comes out
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post #9 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 07:24 AM
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^^Maybe, maybe not.
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post #10 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnvnross View Post
Hi Scott. What probes were you using? CR100? CR250 profiled CR100? Klien k10?, Jeti? C6HDR?

And could you show pictures on the sets with and without 3D lut. I'm using eecolor LUT box and it is a groovy thing.

Also 3D LUT creation with lightspace, rather than calman - which would provide viewers with an excellent demonstration of the color volume of the sets.
Cheers
I'm pretty sure Dave used a CR100 profiled with a CR250. Also, he did not use a 3D LUT box in this case.
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post #11 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CharlieU View Post
I was disappointed that you ran out of time before being able to talk about watching actual content. You guys put in a lot of work, did it make a significant difference in picture quality? How was the viewing experience? Did you see anything that bothered you, such as uniformity, motion, etc? Did the A1E give you a "gotta have it" feeling?
Yeah, I was disappointed that we ran out of time to talk about real-world content as well. Neither of us watched anything before calibration, so we can't say how much difference that made in picture quality. After calibration, the viewing experience was superb. The one thing that I found a bit troubling was some banding at certain moments in Planet Earth II, but I'm not at all sure whether that was caused by the TV or perhaps the Samsung K8500 UHD Blu-ray player. I have another sample of the A1E, and I'm going to investigate this further before I write or say much more about it. I don't want to blame the Sony unless I can completely verify that's where the problem is.
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post #12 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Yeah, I was disappointed that we ran out of time to talk about real-world content as well. Neither of us watched anything before calibration, so we can't say how much difference that made in picture quality. After calibration, the viewing experience was superb. The one thing that I found a bit troubling was some banding at certain moments in Planet Earth II, but I'm not at all sure whether that was caused by the TV or perhaps the Samsung K8500 UHD Blu-ray player. I have another sample of the A1E, and I'm going to investigate this further before I write or say much more about it. I don't want to blame the Sony unless I can completely verify that's where the problem is.
Scott, what time stamps? I'm using that right with an A1E and C7.
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post #13 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 03:28 PM
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Scott, what time stamps? I'm using that right with an A1E and C7.
It's this:

1. Episode "Islands," 19:00 and 23:03. Banding in light blue sky.

2. Episode "Jungles" time 0:30. After the title sequence, the image goes to almost full-screen white.Banding in the white or near-white areas.

I checked it out on two other displays (Samsung Q9F and Sony VW365 projector) and saw the banding on both, which IMO eliminates the possibility it's the A1E causing the issue. In other words, if the problem was with the A1E, there would not be visible banding on the other displays.

I'm waiting on a new Ultra HD Blu-ray player to arrive next week, so for now I cannot rule out the K8500 (which is what I used for playback) causing the artifacts, versus their being in the content itself. Definitely curious about what you see.
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post #14 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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It's this:

1. Episode "Islands," 19:00 and 23:03. Banding in light blue sky.

2. Episode "Jungles" time 0:30. After the title sequence, the image goes to almost full-screen white.Banding in the white or near-white areas.

I checked it out on two other displays (Samsung Q9F and Sony VW365 projector) and saw the banding on both, which IMO eliminates the possibility it's the A1E causing the issue. In other words, if the problem was with the A1E, there would not be visible banding on the other displays.

I'm waiting on a new Ultra HD Blu-ray player to arrive next week, so for now I cannot rule out the K8500 (which is what I used for playback) causing the artifacts, versus their being in the content itself. Definitely curious about what you see.
I also asked Ralph Potts and Tom Norton to examine these clips on whatever HDR displays they have. Ralph played them from an Oppo UDP-203 on a JVC RS500, and he reported seeing no banding. Tom played them from a UDP-203 on an LG E7 and from a K8500 on a Q9, and he reported seeing no banding. So the reason for what Mark and I saw is still a mystery, which is why I haven't written about it yet. I will when I uncover the reason for it.

D-Nice, I'm eager to learn what you observe!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I'm pretty sure Dave used a CR100 profiled with a CR250. Also, he did not use a 3D LUT box in this case.
The gap between pro and comsumer is shrinking I think.

Given that ' we're all geeks on this bus' it can't be too long before many buy an eecolor for $300 and move towards 3d luts.

I moved to genelecs a while back, with 1038's LRC, 7071 subs etc. Just seems much more bang for the buck in the pro market.

Have watched every one of your pod casts, which continue to charm.

Thanks for all of your efforts and best wishes from manchester, England.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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post #16 of 41 Old 05-13-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I also asked Ralph Potts and Tom Norton to examine these clips on whatever HDR displays they have. Ralph played them from an Oppo UDP-203 on a JVC RS500, and he reported seeing no banding. Tom played them from a UDP-203 on an LG E7 and from a K8500 on a Q9, and he reported seeing no banding. So the reason for what Mark and I saw is still a mystery, which is why I haven't written about it yet. I will when I uncover the reason for it.

D-Nice, I'm eager to learn what you observe!
This is the joy of calibrating OLEDs. Veering too far from certain defaults result in digital artifacts such as what you observed. LCDs are so much easier to calibrate IME.

Nothing beats owning the set yourself to really understand how best to calibrate (I have several LCDS and the OLED65E6P). I had every intention of purchasing an A1E until I saw the prices. Instead, I have to rely on the network of calibrators to determine best practices on the set (until prices drop).
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post #17 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I also asked Ralph Potts and Tom Norton to examine these clips on whatever HDR displays they have. Ralph played them from an Oppo UDP-203 on a JVC RS500, and he reported seeing no banding. Tom played them from a UDP-203 on an LG E7 and from a K8500 on a Q9, and he reported seeing no banding. So the reason for what Mark and I saw is still a mystery, which is why I haven't written about it yet. I will when I uncover the reason for it.

D-Nice, I'm eager to learn what you observe!
Sure, but the evidence already excludes the A1E as being the root cause since the banding appeared on other displays.

Occam's razor suggests Tom and Ralph were not sensitive to the banding and simply did not notice it when they said they did not see it. (Edit... looks like that's definitely what happened, per subsequent comments.)

Looks like the issue is the content and not the displays or the player. If the issue was the player, banding would be evident in other scenes and not just in those isolated instances.

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post #18 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 06:20 AM
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This is the joy of calibrating OLEDs. Veering too far from certain defaults result in digital artifacts such as what you observed. LCDs are so much easier to calibrate IME.

Nothing beats owning the set yourself to really understand how best to calibrate (I have several LCDS and the OLED65E6P). I had every intention of purchasing an A1E until I saw the prices. Instead, I have to rely on the network of calibrators to determine best practices on the set (until prices drop).
That would make sense except that I replicated that same banding on a Samsung Q9F as well as a Sony VPL-VW365 projector, so the root cause here is not applying calibration settings to an OLED panel.

The issue likely is with the content, not the gear. You can't assume perfect capture and perfect mastering, even for a flagship Ultra HD Blu-ray title like Planet Earth II.

As an aside, I surely do agree that you can't push the controls of an OLED too far before you start creating new issues like exaggerated noise and posterization. Mind you, I have not calibrated a 2017 OLED and in particular I have yet to put a meter on a Sony OLED, but that has been my experience with LG OLEDs in the past.

It's a truism the getting a "perfect" graph out of your calibration software does not always translate to "perfect" subjective picture quality as seen on the screen. When the adjustments you have to make to get there are large, other issues can crop up.

Also, I agree that if you have extended experience with a TV (own it, or in my case hold on to a review unit for an extended period), it does help in figuring out how to get the very best performance from it, because that takes time.

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post #19 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I also asked Ralph Potts and Tom Norton to examine these clips on whatever HDR displays they have. Ralph played them from an Oppo UDP-203 on a JVC RS500, and he reported seeing no banding. Tom played them from a UDP-203 on an LG E7 and from a K8500 on a Q9, and he reported seeing no banding. So the reason for what Mark and I saw is still a mystery, which is why I haven't written about it yet. I will when I uncover the reason for it.

D-Nice, I'm eager to learn what you observe!
I see the banding here with an A1E and C7... calibrated and uncalibrated modes. It appears to be the disc.
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post #20 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 09:15 AM
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I see the banding here with an A1E and C7... calibrated and uncalibrated modes. It appears to be the disc.
What UHD players do you use?
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post #21 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 09:17 AM
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What UHD players do you use?
Panasonic, OPPO and Samsung
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post #22 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 09:27 AM
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Panasonic, OPPO and Samsung
Thanks.

I'm going to checkout these scenes closely once I get my media room back together (just painted). I have the Sony UBD-X800 and XB1S.
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post #23 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 11:29 AM
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The one thing that I found a bit troubling was some banding at certain moments in Planet Earth II.
That's because NOT all PEII was shot w/10bit+ cameras. Up to 20% of the film was shot w/8-bit cameras of lesser quality. Check out this from Florian-HDR Channel you tube.

https://youtu.be/8llyNBv1hrI
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post #24 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post
That's because NOT all PEII was shot w/10bit+ cameras. Up to 20% of the film was shot w/8-bit cameras of lesser quality. Check out this from Florian-HDR Channel you tube.

https://youtu.be/8llyNBv1hrI

I see, many shots were done with drones instead of helicopter.

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post #25 of 41 Old 05-14-2017, 01:16 PM
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I look forward to your results after calibrating the two OLEDs. From the latest HTG, it would not appear to me that the Sony us worth the extra cash.

Louder is NOT better!
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BB have planet earth 2 playing on the Sony A1E,the snow looks too bluish in the Dynamic mode with it's cool temp and it wasn't doing any justice to the TV.Was poorly setup.Next time I will ask to switch the temp to a warmer temp.
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I would love to hear your thoughts on how the A1 stacks up against the LGs. Does the Sony processor make a noticeable difference even though they are using the same LG panels as what's in the $1000 cheaper C7?
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post #28 of 41 Old 05-15-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I see the banding here with an A1E and C7... calibrated and uncalibrated modes. It appears to be the disc.
D-Nice!

Great to see you on here again! I wanted to re-iterate what you stated, yes, Scott and I saw the banding essentially in calibrated and uncalibrated mode; however, I will say that I spent some more time with the A1E series over the past few weeks and have not found the banding to be consistent with most content. We've look at a few movies including Mad Max, which is mastered at 4,000 Nits and couldn't notice any perceived banding in the image. My guess is that it was either player or content related or both, but if there was some banding it was apparent in calibrated and uncalibrated modes as you have also observed.

Best,

David
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post #29 of 41 Old 05-15-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by David Abrams View Post
D-Nice!

Great to see you on here again! I wanted to re-iterate what you stated, yes, Scott and I saw the banding essentially in calibrated and uncalibrated mode; however, I will say that I spent some more time with the A1E series over the past few weeks and have not found the banding to be consistent with most content. We've look at a few movies including Mad Max, which is mastered at 4,000 Nits and couldn't notice any perceived banding in the image. My guess is that it was either player or content related or both, but if there was some banding it was apparent in calibrated and uncalibrated modes as you have also observed.

Best,

David
Hi David! Good to hear from you too. I also have observed the same with different content here.
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post #30 of 41 Old 05-15-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by David Abrams View Post
D-Nice!

Great to see you on here again! I wanted to re-iterate what you stated, yes, Scott and I saw the banding essentially in calibrated and uncalibrated mode; however, I will say that I spent some more time with the A1E series over the past few weeks and have not found the banding to be consistent with most content. We've look at a few movies including Mad Max, which is mastered at 4,000 Nits and couldn't notice any perceived banding in the image. My guess is that it was either player or content related or both, but if there was some banding it was apparent in calibrated and uncalibrated modes as you have also observed.

Best,

David
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Hi David! Good to hear from you too. I also have observed the same with different content here.
The last piece of the puzzle is... do either of you see the Planet Earth banding under discussion on a different display while using a different player than the A1E and K8500 combo? If so, then there's enough evidence to go from hypothesis to well-established theory, at the minimum, that it's the content and not hardware-related.

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