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post #421 of 1006 Old 11-16-2017, 04:13 PM
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8K and beyond is happening sooner than expected with regards to hardware. Reminds me of the MB war we saw when digital cameras became popular. Electronic technology is no longer moving at snails pace. (Of course, limiting factors are slow HDD/storage technology improvements and the content delivery/internet infrastructure which feels to me like it is still in the stone age. )

I really think it's a possibility the entire film industry could feel the implications of 'affordable' rolled OLED though.
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post #422 of 1006 Old 11-16-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 2 Stangs View Post
8K and beyond is happening sooner than expected with regards to hardware. Reminds me of the MB war we saw when digital cameras became popular. Electronic technology is no longer moving at snails pace. (Of course, limiting factors are slow HDD/storage technology improvements and the content delivery/internet infrastructure which feels to me like it is still in the stone age. )

I really think it's a possibility the entire film industry could feel the implications of 'affordable' rolled OLED though.

oh im sure its coming and im sure people will buy it because bigger numbers mean better apparently. i still personally think for the tv world its a waste for the next years to come. personally if i could buy a 1080 oled set that did 85 % of rec 2020 was a 120hz and did say 1200-1500 nits of brightness. if it was 2ce as expensive as the the current c7 id still buy it anyday over the c7.
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post #423 of 1006 Old 11-16-2017, 05:49 PM
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I don't mean to be a buzzkill... but the standard for digital cameras is 1 pixel = 1 subpixel. Not 3, not even 2, just 1.

As a result of that, followed by cropping and processing, very few movies come close to using the 3.5K available in UHD. None go over.
So all 8K will give the customers is a big, juicy, nicely wrapped wad of nothing.

And even once 11K+ cameras come on the market, how will one deliver the resulting 8K movie? 4K blurays are already living on borrowed resolution. Improved coding efficiency didn't cover the 5x raw data volume jump. Packing 4x again more into space barely fitting 4K will only result in more artifacts, more blur, and no gain in actual PQ. And, with 24 frames not delivering even 2K worth of motion resolution, even what little is gained on keyframes will go to waste.
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post #424 of 1006 Old 11-16-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
I don't mean to be a buzzkill... but the standard for digital cameras is 1 pixel = 1 subpixel. Not 3, not even 2, just 1.

As a result of that, followed by cropping and processing, very few movies come close to using the 3.5K available in UHD. None go over.
So all 8K will give the customers is a big, juicy, nicely wrapped wad of nothing.

And even once 11K+ cameras come on the market, how will one deliver the resulting 8K movie? 4K blurays are already living on borrowed resolution. Improved coding efficiency didn't cover the 5x raw data volume jump. Packing 4x again more into space barely fitting 4K will only result in more artifacts, more blur, and no gain in actual PQ. And, with 24 frames not delivering even 2K worth of motion resolution, even what little is gained on keyframes will go to waste.
Well certainly high end 4K cameras have quite a lot of pixels. I just checked the specs of the Sony 4K FDRAX1 and it shows as having 18.9Mpixel for an effective video resolution of 8.3Mpixel (true 4K). Since it shoots 4:2:2 that seems like a sufficient number of pixels, since it has green for the luminance of each pixel and then enough red and blue to cover half the pixels and hence 4:2:2 just fine and some extra for whatever it needs extra for (image stabilizing maybe?).

8K on the other hand, yeah not sure what could do that yet. I guess the Red 8k cameras can do it given they apparently do shoot 35Mpixel effective so I would guess their sensor really does have something like 70Mpixels. Sure has a price tag to match. Delivery? Who knows.

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post #425 of 1006 Old 11-16-2017, 11:57 PM
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in reality its cheaper to make higher density panels and jam those down our throats saying things like 4 times the picture quality of 4k! then it is to design and innovate say a 12 bit 120hz panel
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post #426 of 1006 Old 11-17-2017, 12:48 AM
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in reality its cheaper to make higher density panels and jam those down our throats saying things like 4 times the picture quality of 4k! then it is to design and innovate say a 12 bit 120hz panel
I can get behind that statement, but people are stupid and it's difficult to educate the masses. Even 240 hz panels are a part of that problem where all they know is that one number is bigger than another.
I'll say this, 8K Tv's of less than 85 inches are stupid. I would however, take a 100+" 8K wallpaper rolling tv though, which is not stupid and which I would be willing to pay 1.5 times what I paid for my A1E.
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post #427 of 1006 Old 11-17-2017, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by zmarty View Post
LG Display to boost OLED panel output 60% next year

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Com...t-60-next-year

They expect to sell a lot of TVs in 2018. That means either smaller prices, better technology, or both.
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post #428 of 1006 Old 11-17-2017, 02:39 PM
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Does anyone have a bead on whether larger OLEDs might become available early next year? I'm about to buy an 85" TV and expect to go with a currently existing LCD option (maybe XBR85X850D), but might wait if larger OLEDs are about to become available.

This TV is going to go in a frame that's built into the room, so if anyone has any insight into whether the large OLEDs are going to be 85" or 86" that would be helpful as well. I've got to commit to one or the other.
Your best bet would be to get Samsung's 85 inch QLED. I don't think LG or Sony will have 85 inch OLEDs ones next year, the biggest OLED is probably going to remain at 77 inches at least until 2020 or 2021 when prices of OLEDs drop drastically, but that's just my own speculation, take it or leave it.
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post #429 of 1006 Old 11-17-2017, 04:08 PM
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Most of "4K Ultra HD Blu-rays" have still a 2K Digital Intermediate in 2017, and some guys are talking about 8K..
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post #430 of 1006 Old 11-17-2017, 04:17 PM
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8K on the other hand, yeah not sure what could do that yet. I guess the Red 8k cameras can do it given they apparently do shoot 35Mpixel effective so I would guess their sensor really does have something like 70Mpixels. Sure has a price tag to match. Delivery? Who knows.
Surprised about the Sony, thanks for the info. My understanding is that 8.3M in that case is a crop (discussion elsewhere), though. From Red's own materials, they seem to be using the full Bayer resolution, with every subpixel as a pixel.

Given the heavy compression involved in the final encoding, it's hardly a crime. And considering they decided even Helium isn't good enough and went after full format... we'll get more details than a consumer medium can store.

It's specifically more resolution on the display that I don't feel is currently needed. I.e. we're already overspeccing the displays. 8K filmed content will look sharper on a 4K display than 4K content. Not that I'm against 8K, but it's a very low priority in my book.
I'd rather first see:
- 60 fps as standard on all content. What good is more pixels if it's all lost in motion?
- Improvements in HDR to the point where it just works. Common standards and proper SDR-to-HDR mapping instead of mode switching.
- Better 2.4:1 support.

All in all, in the observable future, cinemascope 5K (5120x2160) would be a lot more useful than 16:9 8K. We can make it, can fit it on BD, it still has lots of headroom. And, unlike ever-larger 16:9 you have to sit ever further away from, CIH would add scope for movies without oversizing the TV image.
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post #431 of 1006 Old 11-17-2017, 04:45 PM
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Surprised about the Sony, thanks for the info. My understanding is that 8.3M in that case is a crop (discussion elsewhere), though. From Red's own materials, they seem to be using the full Bayer resolution, with every subpixel as a pixel.

Given the heavy compression involved in the final encoding, it's hardly a crime. And considering they decided even Helium isn't good enough and went after full format... we'll get more details than a consumer medium can store.

It's specifically more resolution on the display that I don't feel is currently needed. I.e. we're already overspeccing the displays. 8K filmed content will look sharper on a 4K display than 4K content. Not that I'm against 8K, but it's a very low priority in my book.
I'd rather first see:
- 60 fps as standard on all content. What good is more pixels if it's all lost in motion?
- Improvements in HDR to the point where it just works. Common standards and proper SDR-to-HDR mapping instead of mode switching.
- Better 2.4:1 support.

All in all, in the observable future, cinemascope 5K (5120x2160) would be a lot more useful than 16:9 8K. We can make it, can fit it on BD, it still has lots of headroom. And, unlike ever-larger 16:9 you have to sit ever further away from, CIH would add scope for movies without oversizing the TV image.
I figured Sony was just doing the standard 2 green + 1 red + 1 blue grid and using 1 green per effective pixel and sharing red and blue between effective pixels since that ought to work well with 4:2:2 encoding. Probably a bit of cropping going on too. After all some image stabilizing is done by moving around which part of the sensor you use to keep the resulting image steady.

Not sure I want yet another change in aspect ratio.

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post #432 of 1006 Old 11-17-2017, 06:03 PM
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Your best bet would be to get Samsung's 85 inch QLED. I don't think LG or Sony will have 85 inch OLEDs ones next year, the biggest OLED is probably going to remain at 77 inches at least until 2020 or 2021 when prices of OLEDs drop drastically, but that's just my own speculation, take it or leave it.
Samsung's QLED is 88" and have yet to drop a dollar from most reputable sellers despite the lack of sales or for a Black Friday sale. 19-20K for their set is ridiculous.
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post #433 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 05:55 AM
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I saw a demo by LG for the W series. They mentioned that LG is building a new OLED factory that will give them the ability to make 105" screens. Due to come online in 2019.
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post #434 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 06:38 AM
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Whatever happened to the tick tock cycle some people were claiming? 2018 was supposed to be a tock year. Seems it won't. We wont be getting any big changes. A slight improvement to the peak brightness , 800 nits or thereabouts and maybe a little better QC over the banding issues plaguing the 2017 sets. Nothing much else I guess. I dont expect hdmi 2.1 to be inbuilt in all the 2018 models either.
Where are you people getting the info about 2018 being a "more of the same" year? I must have lost that piece of information among all the different discussions around...

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post #435 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 11:05 AM
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Look at it logically. If the 2019 changes are true (top-emission, 8K, etc.), do you really think they are going to sink a ton of R&D dollars into a panel that will only last a single year? My guess is they will recycle the 2016 panel for a 3rd year. The R&D on that panel is probably all paid off by now so it's pure profit. They can continue to drive pricing lower throughout 2018 and sell everything they can produce. Their panels are already outselling their competitors in similar market segments so no need to rush any changes. For CES 2018, I'm expecting private screenings of the 2019 prototypes and some minor incremental improvements (real or marketing imagined) with gimmicks (form factor, speakers, etc.) to keep selling the same 2016 panel into 2018. I predicted 8K many months ago in this thread - looks like I was off by 1 year. Without new panels, I doubt they will address any of the fundamental issues like uniformity or lifespan for 2018. Maybe uniformity will continue to get worse as it did for 2017 in order to increase effective yields.
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post #436 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 11:36 AM
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Look at it logically. If the 2019 changes are true (top-emission, 8K, etc.), do you really think they are going to sink a ton of R&D dollars into a panel that will only last a single year? My guess is they will recycle the 2016 panel for a 3rd year. The R&D on that panel is probably all paid off by now so it's pure profit. They can continue to drive pricing lower throughout 2018 and sell everything they can produce. Their panels are already outselling their competitors in similar market segments so no need to rush any changes. For CES 2018, I'm expecting private screenings of the 2019 prototypes and some minor incremental improvements (real or marketing imagined) with gimmicks (form factor, speakers, etc.) to keep selling the same 2016 panel into 2018. I predicted 8K many months ago in this thread - looks like I was off by 1 year. Without new panels, I doubt they will address any of the fundamental issues like uniformity or lifespan for 2018. Maybe uniformity will continue to get worse as it did for 2017 in order to increase effective yields.
Well if the 2019 changes are true then I expect a slight improvement in uniformity just like there was in 2017 . In any event we don't have to wait much longer to see what LG has in store for 2018.

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post #437 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 01:12 PM
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Where did you see that?

According to this presentation, we won't be seeing any QDCF before 2019: http://abload.de/image.php?img=36536...171140supo.jpg
I'm guilty of making a bad assumption. Samsung sort of implied last year at this time that they were close to coming out with a QDCF and in this interview Jason Hartlove/Nanosys suggested late 2017/early 2018 (7:35 mark). Maybe we'll at least see a prototype at the 2018 CES.


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post #438 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 03:18 PM
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Well if the 2019 changes are true then I expect a slight improvement in uniformity just like there was in 2017 . In any event we don't have to wait much longer to see what LG has in store for 2018.
Disagree about 2017 being an improvement in uniformity. It was a sideways move at best. Much worse vertical banding but reduction in vignetting or reverse-vignetting. Pick your poison. Scanning through hundreds of reports in the uniformity tracking thread, rtings reviews, and personal testing experience backs up my claims. There will always be outliers every year but those were the overall trends. I wold be shocked if 2018 is better than either 2016 or 2017 based on the number of units they are planning to sell - unless they do actually introduce a new panel.
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post #439 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 05:03 PM
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Disagree about 2017 being an improvement in uniformity. It was a sideways move at best. Much worse vertical banding but reduction in vignetting or reverse-vignetting. Pick your poison. Scanning through hundreds of reports in the uniformity tracking thread, rtings reviews, and personal testing experience backs up my claims. There will always be outliers every year but those were the overall trends. I wold be shocked if 2018 is better than either 2016 or 2017 based on the number of units they are planning to sell - unless they do actually introduce a new panel.
Much worse vertical banding I know you disagree hence the wink but I don't see any scientific proof either way not withstanding your anecdotal observations. IMO there is more emphasis put on the 5% slides this year and a larger pool to draw from with the 2017 models.

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post #440 of 1006 Old 11-24-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
Samsung sort of implied last year at this time that they were close to coming out with a QDCF and in this interview Jason Hartlove/Nanosys suggested late 2017/early 2018 (7:35 mark). Maybe we'll at least see a prototype at the 2018 CES.
It's still going to look like a crock overall, though. A much more colorful crock this time.


(Unless they quit chasing thinness and make real improvement in backlight and its control. QDCF is a good thing, but it won't change how most content loooks.)

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post #441 of 1006 Old 11-25-2017, 04:29 AM
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Look at it logically. If the 2019 changes are true (top-emission, 8K, etc.), do you really think they are going to sink a ton of R&D dollars into a panel that will only last a single year?
Are you suggesting that if 8K screens actually hit the market by LG in 2019 that means that they are automatically no longer going to be putting any more effort into improving the still nascent 4K screens? In what world are 8K TVs going to start flying off the shelves like the 4K currently are-kind of? We don't even have lossless 1080p streaming yet with most services, 4K streaming isn't even 4K, hardly any actual native 4K content even on UHD discs, and seeing it on broadcast TV is almost NYI everywhere outside of Japan. Consoles sell a lot of TVs too, and both consoles and even PC struggle to hit native 4K right now, and I can guarantee that they won't come anywhere close to 8K next gen either. Yet suddenly everyone is going to be interested in a resolution over an already dubious (for most homes) 4K resolution? Most people live outside of the enthusiast bubble. "4K" wasn't even the real improvement on the current TVs anyway.

Without broadcast TV actually catching up, all that ends up happening is you actually have the opposite of the desired effect when buying a modern TV. Everything looks intrinsically worse. 8K going mainstream--if it ever does--isn't going to happen for at least another decade. For now, it may as well be considered Virtual Reality or 3D.
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post #442 of 1006 Old 11-25-2017, 08:38 AM
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Are you suggesting that if 8K screens actually hit the market by LG in 2019 that means that they are automatically no longer going to be putting any more effort into improving the still nascent 4K screens? In what world are 8K TVs going to start flying off the shelves like the 4K currently are-kind of? We don't even have lossless 1080p streaming yet with most services, 4K streaming isn't even 4K, hardly any actual native 4K content even on UHD discs, and seeing it on broadcast TV is almost NYI everywhere outside of Japan. Consoles sell a lot of TVs too, and both consoles and even PC struggle to hit native 4K right now, and I can guarantee that they won't come anywhere close to 8K next gen either. Yet suddenly everyone is going to be interested in a resolution over an already dubious (for most homes) 4K resolution? Most people live outside of the enthusiast bubble. "4K" wasn't even the real improvement on the current TVs anyway.

Without broadcast TV actually catching up, all that ends up happening is you actually have the opposite of the desired effect when buying a modern TV. Everything looks intrinsically worse. 8K going mainstream--if it ever does--isn't going to happen for at least another decade. For now, it may as well be considered Virtual Reality or 3D.
You are right, 8K tv's will not end 4K tv's any more than 4K ended 1080 TVs. At least not for a number of years, but don't forget due to technological acceleration that time span is getting shorter, so while it took 10 years for 4K to become mainstream (arguable), it will likely only take 5 years for 8K to reach the same level of penetration into the market. Also if LG really does plan to introduce a 100+" rollable OLED in 2019-20, then 8K automatically becomes not stupid at least for that size. Considering the simplicity of construction of OLEDs, I would expect this to be the natural progression and the driver itself.

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post #443 of 1006 Old 11-25-2017, 09:05 AM
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You are right, 8K tv's will not end 4K tv's any more than 4K ended 1080 TVs. At least not for a number of years, but don't forget due to technological acceleration that time span is getting shorter, so while it took 10 years for 4K to become mainstream (arguable), it will likely only take 5 years for 8K to reach the same level of penetration into the market. Also if LG really does plan to introduce a 100+" rollable OLED in 2019-20, then 8K automatically becomes not stupid at least for that size. Considering the simplicity of construction of OLEDs, I would expect this to be the natural progression and the driver itself.
4K only started to become mainstream within the last two years, and that's only for those who purchased a new TV either out of necessity, or those that had enough extra funds that wanted to upgrade in size. I don't know what the current household figure is for 4K being the primary viewing screen in the US is, but I highly doubt it's reached even 30% yet. That's including all of the recent purchases within the last few weeks too. Hitting 80% in just the US will probably take another five years at best, and then we're expected to just start a new upgrade cycle before 4K has even actually truly matured yet? No way is that going to happen. Now include all of the other countries that have an even lower adoption rate right now.

Regardless, being a rollable screen doesn't magically increase the space people have in their living rooms. To get even the slightest benefit of that kind of resolution will require a 100'' screen at minimum, but your FOV will also be so compromised at the distance you would need to sit to even notice the increase. No one is going to sit three feet away from a 55'' either.
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post #444 of 1006 Old 11-25-2017, 09:17 AM
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Does 8K even matter when there won't be any content for it? All 8K will do is make lower resolution images even worse.

I used to install TV, I used to regularly get "Why does the picture look so bad, its a 4K display." Because you are taking a compressed 720/1080 image and trying to gain something from nothing. You need quality content. "Where do I get that from?" You don't. It doesn't exist yet.
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post #445 of 1006 Old 11-25-2017, 11:44 AM
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Whether 8K makes any sense is irrelevant. It's all about marketing. Increasing resolution has no real impact on LCD pricing so you can bet Samsung will push this "spec wars" advantage as soon as possible. It's their only hope as they are losing market share. They will likely have 8K models at CES. LG needs to answer so as not to be perceived as inferior and falling behind. I don't know why we're even arguing this. It's right in their presentations for 2019.

Nobody is saying they are going to immediately discontinue 4K panel production. Just as they didn't immediately drop 1080p from their budget lineup. But there were no additional advancements put into those 1080p products after they released 4K.
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post #446 of 1006 Old 11-25-2017, 12:19 PM
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Much worse vertical banding I know you disagree hence the wink but I don't see any scientific proof either way not withstanding your anecdotal observations. IMO there is more emphasis put on the 5% slides this year and a larger pool to draw from with the 2017 models.
Look, how many 2017 models have you seen in person in a light controlled room? I have seen 4 LG and 1 Sony. I posted pictures of some of them. I have seen probably double that number of 2016 models. Online photos are an additional data point but I primarily rely on what I see with my own eyes. 2017 is a vertical banding disaster at the 55" size compared to 2016. Not a single of those 5 2017 models I looked at came close to even the worst 55" 2016 model I saw. This is with actual difficult content like the various Arrival and Marco Polo clips. I typically don't waste my time looking at the 65" because if you can't get uniformity right at a smaller size, you sure as hell aren't going to do it with a larger surface area. I'm mostly interested in tracking LG's best uniformity attempts so I stick to judging the size where they've consistently delivered the best results up to 2016.

Maybe the 65" size is as crappy this year as last - it's definitely not improved. See the uniformity tracking thread for countless examples of 65" models from both years. Nobody is posting 2017 models with less vertical banding than 2016. Less vignetting, sure. We've even seen a return of the dreaded "piss stains" at that size.

Most likely LG is taking some shortcuts now in order to speed up production and/or lower pricing. I don't see why they would change that trend into 2018 as long as product is selling and getting great reviews.
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post #447 of 1006 Old 11-26-2017, 02:48 PM
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Wow guys... not a single reason to look optimistically at 2018 releases? You're making me kind of depressed.

Seriously. AVS is a place where you go to learn to be unhappy. - Bear5k
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post #448 of 1006 Old 11-26-2017, 03:39 PM
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Wow guys... not a single reason to look optimistically at 2018 releases? You're making me kind of depressed.
Ya.. I am waiting until CES and see what new features are available.. If nothing catches my eye I will get a 2017 model hopefully at a closeout price

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post #449 of 1006 Old 11-26-2017, 05:20 PM
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Ya.. I am waiting until CES and see what new features are available.. If nothing catches my eye I will get a 2017 model hopefully at a closeout price

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Not knowing what is coming for 2018. I bought the a1e at Black Friday pricing but postpone delivery until
Jan 17 to see whats coming. If no improvements I'll keep the a1e at a good price.
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post #450 of 1006 Old 11-27-2017, 07:30 AM
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Interesting read

https://seekingalpha.com/article/412...ly-falls-apart


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