2018 LG OLED TV rumors... - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 1006 Old 01-10-2018, 10:56 PM
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Did I miss it or did they announce shipping dates and prices yet?
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post #932 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Did I miss it or did they announce shipping dates and prices yet?
One of the reps mentioned that the bulk of the models will start shipping in April, as expected no prices were announced

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post #933 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
One of the reps mentioned that the bulk of the models will start shipping in April, as expected no prices were announced
Been inquiring about a 77" C8, and April looks like the key.
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post #934 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
One of the reps mentioned that the bulk of the models will start shipping in April, as expected no prices were announced
One source said June for some....well see....lol
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post #935 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 08:51 AM
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What I have read is C's April and E's June. Like said, we shall see...

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post #936 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 11:07 AM
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I've never failed to basically acquire pricing when I went to CES -- even when pricing wasn't announced.

I can't believe no one uses basic techniques to get the info, even if they have to caveat it with "this wasn't confirmed, and is basically an estimate".

I'm assuming $4000 for the entry 65. In short, a 50% price increase of what last year's model sells for.

If I'm reading things correctly, the 6 series was fake priced at $6500, dropped to around $2800.

The 7 series was fake priced at $4500, dropped to around $2600.

Without overstating this, it seems like the bottom of the curve isn't really falling much. (Yes, I know there have been short-term sales that take these numbers lower!)

It's interested though that the top-end of the price curve did some down 30% year-over-year from 2016 to 2017. While the bottom end came down about 10%.

That makes extrapolation challenging. I thought we'd have a very, very real shot at a $2000 65-inch this year (real pricing) but I'm somewhat less sure right now looking at the data.

Noteworthy that if the 65 launches at $3500, that'd be another 20+% below last year's price but would still leave 30% of "room" for LG to really not change the bottom end price at all.

Now, we see forecasts for much bigger sales from LG, IHS, et al., indicating they don't believe this will happen -- keep in mind that some huge, huge proportion of sales are in Q4 and therefore at/near the lowest prices -- so this becomes interesting. It seems like LG needs something close to an entire year of pricing at / below Q4 levels to hit their own, announced sales targets.

So maybe I'm being pessimistic and the intro price will be $3500 after all, with the year reaching $1999. If we see that, wonderful. And also an indication that a 65-inch at $1500 is <2 years away. A $1000 version <5!

I'm getting excited. Even though I had to talk myself into it.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #937 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 12:56 PM
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The excitation should be put on pause if all that cost-cutting results in continued uniformity anomalies. You're coming from a VT50 (whereas I had a ZT60) so I know what you're accustomed to experiencing. I only bailed back in 2014 from the ZT because of stubborn IR tendencies (and the increasing desire to have zero blacks after previously getting a small taste of that with a Kuro). I struggle daily to tolerate the grayscale on this 77" G6 (a problem that was nonexistent with flagship plasma), so much so that I might add some ambient lighting to mask it.

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post #938 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 01:32 PM
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I might add some ambient lighting to mask it.
Boy, ain’t that something? I’ve been thinking the same, but I just can’t bring myself to do it. I bought an OLED to get rid of bias lights.

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post #939 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 01:52 PM
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If anything it will limit eyestrain when you have those blinding moments juxtaposed against dimmer ones. I know some who use it here (and it is actually recommended in professional circles, no matter your TV's black level capabilities).
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post #940 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I've never failed to basically acquire pricing when I went to CES -- even when pricing wasn't announced.

I can't believe no one uses basic techniques to get the info, even if they have to caveat it with "this wasn't confirmed, and is basically an estimate".

I'm assuming $4000 for the entry 65. In short, a 50% price increase of what last year's model sells for.

If I'm reading things correctly, the 6 series was fake priced at $6500, dropped to around $2800.

The 7 series was fake priced at $4500, dropped to around $2600.

Without overstating this, it seems like the bottom of the curve isn't really falling much. (Yes, I know there have been short-term sales that take these numbers lower!)

It's interested though that the top-end of the price curve did some down 30% year-over-year from 2016 to 2017. While the bottom end came down about 10%.
You are forgetting to 65B7A - it launched at $3300 and dipped to $2300 (currently $2650): https://camelcamelcamel.com/LG-Elect...uct/B073K7ZFNF

So year-on-year, the least expensive OLED available through official channels dropped from $2800 in 2016 to $2300 in 2017, an 18% drop.

The other thing to note is that LG is putting more and more effort into differentiating the lower-end of the product line. In 2016, the B6P and C6P were pretty much identical TVs at identical pricing. B6 was flat without 3D, C6 was curved with 3D (differentiation no one was prepared to pay a premium for).

In 2017, the only difference between the C7P and B7P was literally cosmetic, though LG introduced the lower-end B7A with slightly inferior audio at a lower price.

Now for 2018, there is the first substantive difference between the C8P and all of the B8s - inferior processing on the B8s.

I think it is pretty clear that LGs strategy is to sell higher volumes through new even-lower entry-level offerings while holding the line on the premium product lines they have established, starting with the G and E from 2016, adding the W in 2017, and now including the C as it graduates to having the same top-tier processors as it's higher-end brethren and now a 77" screen size to boot.

Quote:
That makes extrapolation challenging. I thought we'd have a very, very real shot at a $2000 65-inch this year (real pricing) but I'm somewhat less sure right now looking at the data.
I'm pretty confident the lowest-end WOLEE offering will agan dip 15-20% below 2017 levels, meaning a 65" WOLED will is very likely to be available this November at procig below $2000 through official channels. It is just a WOLED that truly may be lacking some of the features you covet.

Quote:
Noteworthy that if the 65 launches at $3500, that'd be another 20+% below last year's price but would still leave 30% of "room" for LG to really not change the bottom end price at all.
LG has already launched a 65" OLED at pricing under $3500 - the 65B7A launched at $3300. I expect the 65B8A to launch under $3000 this year.

If we turn to the 65C8P, I won't be the least bit surprised to see LG keep launch picing at 2017 levels ($4000). Launch prices are nothing more than marketing statements of quality and prestige, and LG seems to like those $1000 gaps, so I'm going to go out on a limb and go ahead and predict:

65W8P launch MSRP of $7000
65G8P launch MSRP of $6000
65E8P launch MSRP of $5000
65C8P launch MSRP of $4000
65B8P launch MSRP of $3500
65B8A launch MSRP of $3000

Quote:
Now, we see forecasts for much bigger sales from LG, IHS, et al., indicating they don't believe this will happen -- keep in mind that some huge, huge proportion of sales are in Q4 and therefore at/near the lowest prices -- so this becomes interesting. It seems like LG needs something close to an entire year of pricing at / below Q4 levels to hit their own, announced sales targets.
Average selling price of 65" WOLEDs is certain to decline by 15-20% in 2018 to support this increased level, but that doesn't mean that the price of the C-Series and higher is going to be declining at that rate. LG may be perfectly happing selling the same number of 65C8Ps as they sold in 2017 and driving increased levels of sales to the 65B7P, 65B7A, and who's to say thay may not be introducing another late even-lower model mid-2018? (though my guess is that the B8A is enough).

Quote:
So maybe I'm being pessimistic and the intro price will be $3500 after all, with the year reaching $1999. If we see that, wonderful. And also an indication that a 65-inch at $1500 is <2 years away. A $1000 version <5!

I'm getting excited. Even though I had to talk myself into it.
To recap my view:

65C8P launching with MSRP under $3500 is unlikely but 65B8A launching below that level is a near-certainty.

65C8P dipping under $2000 by November is exceedingly unlikely but 6B8A dipping under $2000 by then seems probable.

And going beyond that, the 65" entry-level WOLED could concievably dip under $1500 by 2019 but seems almost certain to do so by 2020.

And by 2022 when the 10.5G plant is in production and 65" WOLED panels are produced 6-to-a-sheet rather than 3-to-a-sheet, 65" entry-level WOLEDs dipping to $1000 that year or the next seems like a pretty sure bet.
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post #941 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 02:49 PM
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The $64,000 question is what will be the price of the 77C8P.
In deference to numerology, a street price of $6,400 would be nice.

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post #942 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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The $64,000 question is what will be the price of the 77C8P.
In deference to numerology, a street price of $6,400 would be nice.

- Rich
I'll go even further out on a limb and predict a launch MSRP of $9999 and November dip pricing below $5000 (meaning $4999) for the 77C8P.

There are alot of factors driving that prediction but the most important is Samung's pricing for the 75Q9 and 75Q8. While LG has positioned the 65E7P at a 15% premium to the 65Q9, they have positioned the 65C7P at a 15% discount to the 65Q8 (and the 65B7A at close to parity with the 65Q7).

So the 77C8P appears likely to be a 75Q8 killer rather than a 75Q9 killer.

The Samsung QN75Q8F launched with an MSRP of $5500, quickly dropped to a discounted price of $5000 by mid-July soon after it became available, dipped to $4500 in November, and is currenty selling for $4800: https://camelcamelcamel.com/Samsung-...context=search

So if LG expects the 77C8P to take significant market share from Samsungs 2018 75QNQ8C, it's going to have to dip to $5000 this November...
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post #943 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 07:48 PM
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1) The B8 has a less robust LUT
2) Neil says televisions will launch in February/March


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post #944 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 09:38 PM
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So who's going to make the first 2019 LG OLED rumours post
I'm very underwhelmed with this years OLED TVs across the board so will wait until next year to jump in.
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post #945 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
1) The B8 has a less robust LUT
2) Neil says televisions will launch in February/March

https://youtu.be/___CPCfTFmw
Yes, LG is finally starting to distinguish the liw end of the product line with features/capability that will actually impact picture quality and video performance rather than just audio and cosmetics...

I'd buy a B7A if I wanted a 2017 WOLED, but in 2018, the C-Series may actually be worth paying a small premium for.

I expect to see LG be much more agressive continuing to drive down prices of the B8P and B8A and starting to level out prices of the C8P...
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post #946 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 11:07 PM
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I don't mind paying more for the C series. I do mind not being able to buy from Costco, which will probably not carry it.
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post #947 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 11:12 PM
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@barth2 , hard to know what Costco will do this year. Last year that B model was essentially "Costco specific" as conceived.

This year it would be inferior, too. Maybe Costco only sells the B, maybe they get both. They have many different Samsungs.

@fafrd , a much more comprehensive analysis than mine. Although it does fundamentally echo my point that the arguable "mainstream" C models are unlikely be much cheaper in 2018 than they were in 2017.

With the clear differentiation to the B Series this year, most people won't care. But many AVSers probably will.

I guess I can wait till November to buy. If we're looking at $300-500 it's probably worth the patience. My TV displays video.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #948 of 1006 Old 01-11-2018, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't mind paying more for the C series. I do mind not being able to buy from Costco, which will probably not carry it.
Yeah, Costco is great. I went through 4 defective 55EC9300s with them with nary a hitch. But they never carried the B6, so I had to buy those through Best Buy.

I think you should be able to find the C6 selling anywhere the Samsung Q8, but I just checked and Costco only carries the Q7 .
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post #949 of 1006 Old 01-12-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The $64,000 question is what will be the price of the 77C8P.
In deference to numerology, a street price of $6,400 would be nice.

- Rich
One source said MSRP of 10,000. If that holds true you will save a thousand on the street or so.........
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post #950 of 1006 Old 01-12-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
One source said MSRP of 10,000. If that holds true you will save a thousand on the street or so.........
At launch, and then in September...


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post #951 of 1006 Old 01-12-2018, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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One source said MSRP of 10,000. If that holds true you will save a thousand on the street or so.........
Or 50% by November .
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post #952 of 1006 Old 01-12-2018, 10:42 AM
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@barth2 , hard to know what Costco will do this year. Last year that B model was essentially "Costco specific" as conceived.

This year it would be inferior, too. Maybe Costco only sells the B, maybe they get both. They have many different Samsungs.

@fafrd , a much more comprehensive analysis than mine. Although it does fundamentally echo my point that the arguable "mainstream" C models are unlikely be much cheaper in 2018 than they were in 2017.

With the clear differentiation to the B Series this year, most people won't care. But many AVSers probably will.

I guess I can wait till November to buy. If we're looking at $300-500 it's probably worth the patience. My TV displays video.
Well funny thing is that while in the US the B7P was for costco and similar only and everyone else had the C7P, in Canada the C7P was a best buy exclusive and everyone else got the B7P.

I would not make any assumptions about how the models will be handled in 2018 based on 2017.
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post #953 of 1006 Old 01-12-2018, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I'll go even further out on a limb and predict a launch MSRP of $9999 and November dip pricing below $5000 (meaning $4999) for the 77C8P.



So if LG expects the 77C8P to take significant market share from Samsungs 2018 75QNQ8C, it's going to have to dip to $5000 this November...

^^^PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!!!!! I’m waiting and hoping for this!



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post #954 of 1006 Old 01-14-2018, 03:33 AM
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The 2018 TV panels have 700 nits only.... it's sufficient? Not enough i think...
Not sufficient for what? To light up a room? Or to heart your eyes?
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post #955 of 1006 Old 01-14-2018, 09:49 AM
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I thought they had more for the 2017 models.
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post #956 of 1006 Old 01-14-2018, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought they had more for the 2017 models.
We'll have to wait for the specs.

My suspicion is that LG may use the improved 2018 panel to deliver on the pea brighness spec they havecalready claimed in 2017 (900 Nits) but to come far closer to deliverig that in calibrated D65, rather than just Vivid.

It's also very possible we'll see a boost in ABL:

At 100%, they out to be able to increase from 130 cd/m2 to ~150 cd/m2

At 87%, they out to be able to increase from 150 cd/m2 to ~180 cd/m2

Of course, if LG is now more concerned with differential aging than they are with the brightness wars, they may hold off on any of these improvements and reserve all of the increased subpixel size to refuce aging.

In terms of differential aging and burn-in of the CNN logo, that is most dependant on 100% SDR peak luminance (which was already reduced from 450 cd/m2 in 2016 to 430 cd/m2 in 2017), so that is the spec I believe is most likely not to improve and possibly even to further decrease.
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post #957 of 1006 Old 01-14-2018, 07:13 PM
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My problem with current LG OLED is the way they do tone mapping makes most movies and TV shows look too dark a lot of the time. For example, when I switch from mad max fury road HDR to SDR I can see how much brighter the picture is and how much more shadow details I'm getting with the SDR version, and that's using BT.1886 gamma for SDR, which is already pretty dark. In HDR, even the day scenes look dusky. But sure, you get those impressive gleams off of the chrome of the cars, at the cost of everything else being darker.

In other movies, so often for night interior scenes you have really bright spots from whatever lights are in the room while the rest of the room is dark or very dark. Sometimes I actually put my hand up to block out the light so I can see. It's both too bright and too dark at the same time. I feel like I'm being poked in the eyes with random spots of brightness (ooh look how shiny those lamps are) rather than being shown a good, balanced picture.

It won't matter if the panel can hit 1000 nits as long LG insists on keeping all highlight details at the cost of average picture level. The new 100" Sony can hit 2800 nits but Sony still chooses to clip whites, because they understand the goal is a good picture, not being able to resolve all the steps in a test pattern. Incidentally Vincent Teoh says it's his new HDR reference.

I tried to take some pictures to show the difference b/t hdr and sdr but they end up looking the same, probably because the phone's camera just auto compensates. Too bad my eyes don't work as well.
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post #958 of 1006 Old 01-15-2018, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2 View Post
My problem with current LG OLED is the way they do tone mapping makes most movies and TV shows look too dark a lot of the time. For example, when I switch from mad max fury road HDR to SDR I can see how much brighter the picture is and how much more shadow details I'm getting with the SDR version, and that's using BT.1886 gamma for SDR, which is already pretty dark. In HDR, even the day scenes look dusky. But sure, you get those impressive gleams off of the chrome of the cars, at the cost of everything else being darker.

In other movies, so often for night interior scenes you have really bright spots from whatever lights are in the room while the rest of the room is dark or very dark. Sometimes I actually put my hand up to block out the light so I can see. It's both too bright and too dark at the same time. I feel like I'm being poked in the eyes with random spots of brightness (ooh look how shiny those lamps are) rather than being shown a good, balanced picture.

It won't matter if the panel can hit 1000 nits as long LG insists on keeping all highlight details at the cost of average picture level. The new 100" Sony can hit 2800 nits but Sony still chooses to clip whites, because they understand the goal is a good picture, not being able to resolve all the steps in a test pattern. Incidentally Vincent Teoh says it's his new HDR reference.

I tried to take some pictures to show the difference b/t hdr and sdr but they end up looking the same, probably because the phone's camera just auto compensates. Too bad my eyes don't work as well.
I agree that the 2017 tone-mapping one size fits all makes movies mastered at 4000 max luminance look dark. I have been playing around with the HDFury Vertex.
Overriding the metadata with 1000 produces a much better and brighter image. When you set the MaxCLL to 600, the image brightens again.
It should not be necessary to fool to the TV into better tracking the PQ EOTF.

At the very least, there should be a setting to allow the user to chose PQ-EOTF tracking and this should not be based on static metadata.

How did we get to a place where a display lowers the average picture level even below 100 nits on some titles and it is considered accurate?
Blowing out an occasional highlight is much better than lowering the APL. Tone mapping is a new type of ABL, the same reviewers who praise reducing ABL also praise aggressive tone-mapping that also lower the average brightness level. It makes no sense.

- Rich
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post #959 of 1006 Old 01-15-2018, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by beatsntoons View Post
So who's going to make the first 2019 LG OLED rumours post
I'm very underwhelmed with this years OLED TVs across the board so will wait until next year to jump in.
8K babies...the next real...no gimmick thing! And if they would bring back 3D...mind blown!
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post #960 of 1006 Old 01-16-2018, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2 View Post
My problem with current LG OLED is the way they do tone mapping makes most movies and TV shows look too dark a lot of the time. For example, when I switch from mad max fury road HDR to SDR I can see how much brighter the picture is and how much more shadow details I'm getting with the SDR version, and that's using BT.1886 gamma for SDR, which is already pretty dark. In HDR, even the day scenes look dusky. But sure, you get those impressive gleams off of the chrome of the cars, at the cost of everything else being darker.

In other movies, so often for night interior scenes you have really bright spots from whatever lights are in the room while the rest of the room is dark or very dark. Sometimes I actually put my hand up to block out the light so I can see. It's both too bright and too dark at the same time. I feel like I'm being poked in the eyes with random spots of brightness (ooh look how shiny those lamps are) rather than being shown a good, balanced picture.

It won't matter if the panel can hit 1000 nits as long LG insists on keeping all highlight details at the cost of average picture level. The new 100" Sony can hit 2800 nits but Sony still chooses to clip whites, because they understand the goal is a good picture, not being able to resolve all the steps in a test pattern. Incidentally Vincent Teoh says it's his new HDR reference.

I tried to take some pictures to show the difference b/t hdr and sdr but they end up looking the same, probably because the phone's camera just auto compensates. Too bad my eyes don't work as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I agree that the 2017 tone-mapping one size fits all makes movies mastered at 4000 max luminance look dark. I have been playing around with the HDFury Vertex.
Overriding the metadata with 1000 produces a much better and brighter image. When you set the MaxCLL to 600, the image brightens again.
It should not be necessary to fool to the TV into better tracking the PQ EOTF.

At the very least, there should be a setting to allow the user to chose PQ-EOTF tracking and this should not be based on static metadata.

How did we get to a place where a display lowers the average picture level even below 100 nits on some titles and it is considered accurate?
Blowing out an occasional highlight is much better than lowering the APL. Tone mapping is a new type of ABL, the same reviewers who praise reducing ABL also praise aggressive tone-mapping that also lower the average brightness level. It makes no sense.

- Rich
"Advanced HDR by Technicolor" to the rescue . . . See points 1 & 2. More details coming February 2nd.

"Technicolor Advanced HDR" is a combination of "Technicolor HDR ITM" (Intelligent Tone Management) – which up-converts SDR content to HDR – and "Technicolor HDR" – which simultaneously distributes HDR and SDR content through one single 8 bit stream. This is significant. This is the future.

1. Content will look as the director or colorist intended, regardless of format or display peak luminance.

2. Adapts to any workflow, content, or display peak luminance on a frame-by-frame basis.

3. Allows a broader array of content and is not limited to native HDR content, and will include live broadcast and existing libraries. ( Hello HLG )

4. It will save the industry millions of dollars in infrastructure because there will be no need for a separate delivery system.

LG OLED65C7P 4-20-19 Calibration SDR/HDR/DV FW 05.80.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57928994
VIZIO M70-D3 Calibration SDR/HDR FW 3.4.8.15: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post55595700
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