Warning to all current, future OLED TV Owners - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
A "sure thing" to get burn in? Yeah, OK. This is the kind of stuff we are referring to when we say FUD and overly dramatic nonsense. But, whatever. Those that fear it should just get an LCD and have fun with it. The complaints are from a very small minority of users with some specific use cases that involve particular channels and longer term viewing of said channels at settings that can NOT be verified since we aren’t there to confirm it. But , sure, take that "data" and it’s *reasonable* to conclude that everyone with an OLED will get burn in. Uh huh.

My goodness. A sure thing.... I have a year of heavy use on my set. When should I expect to see my burn in? Any week now, I’d think. Right?
What are we going on like 3-4 years of widely available affordable models of these sorts of TVs and people are in some cases in less than one year of owning OLEDTVs already complaining about burn-in. This place is a very small minority of users yer there are a fair amount of complaints here. You can tell yourself whatever you like but over the long hall burn-in seems inevitably unless you heavily modify how you use the TV and baby it. Another thing about burn-in is a lot of people don't notice it until they actively look for it then once pointed out to them they can't unsee it. There are a fair amount of people that are likely right now in the early stages of burn-in that haven't noticed it because it's faint and they haven't actually looked for it.

I've just accepted this is a flaw of the tech and these TVs are ticking time bombs when it comes to that. I'm not gonna stop watching the news or channels with logos because I'm afraid my TV can't take it. You should probably ask yourself it this is such a small number or users and so unlikely why won't LG or any TV maker cover burn-in under their standard 1 year warranty?

I wouldn't put too much stock in what a corporation like LG says about this. At one point Microsoft claimed the failure rate of the original Xbox 360 for RROD was 5% even though everyone knew it was higher. Companies do that, downplay this kind of stuff.
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post #392 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 01:49 PM
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What are we going on like 3-4 years of widely available affordable models of these sorts of TVs and people are in some cases in less than one year of owning OLEDTVs already complaining about burn-in. This place is a very small minority of users yer there are a fair amount of complaints here. You can tell yourself whatever you like but over the long hall burn-in seems inevitably unless you heavily modify how you use the TV and baby it. Another thing about burn-in is a lot of people don't notice it until they actively look for it then once pointed out to them they can't unsee it. There are a fair amount of people that are likely right now in the early stages of burn-in that haven't noticed it because it's faint and they haven't actually looked for it.

I've just accepted this is a flaw of the tech and these TVs are ticking time bombs when it comes to that. I'm not gonna stop watching the news or channels with logos because I'm afraid my TV can't take it. You should probably ask yourself it this is such a small number or users and so unlikely why won't LG or any TV maker cover burn-in under their standard 1 year warranty?

I wouldn't put too much stock in what a corporation like LG says about this. At one point Microsoft claimed the failure rate of the original Xbox 360 for RROD was 5% even though everyone knew it was higher. Companies do that, downplay this kind of stuff.
Well, I hate to say it but there are a LOT of us that have been using the TV however we want and have no such issues. At all. We dont have pending burn-in, we dont have the start of burn-in and really nothing to do with any burn-in whatsoever. Hmmm. How could that be? Us "non" burin-in users watch ton of sports and whatever else too. Doesnt jive then - if the TV is ticking time bomb, right? Im not being argumentative here Im just stating what I see/know. Ive checked fr BI just to see. Nothing.

The burn-in reports tend to come from those that watch what would be considered a lot of certain channels, primarily CNN and MSNBC. We have no choice but to take what they've said regarding usage, settings, etc as facts even though it cant be proven. And yes, that goes for me and others saying how we use our TVs - I could be "fudging" it too but you'd never know it. Its the internet - there *could* be some fluff and BS going on here. Just saying. So, sorry if I cant always believe every single tidbit of information I see on the web.

I get that companies dont always do whats right. No kidding. But burn-in has never been covered by any TV mfger for a very good reason: Its amost impossible to weed out cases where the TV truly came from the factory susceptible to burn in versus some clown falling asleep with the TV on every night on CNN. How would they ever prove or disprove it? Same reason your car warranty is void if you start adding heavy mods or messing with emissions stuff. How do they know what you actually did or didnt do?

I have to stay out of these threads.... I really do. My fault for getting sucked in.

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post #393 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 03:17 PM
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Well, I hate to say it but there are a LOT of us that have been using the TV however we want and have no such issues. At all. We dont have pending burn-in, we dont have the start of burn-in and really nothing to do with any burn-in whatsoever. Hmmm. How could that be? Us "non" burin-in users watch ton of sports and whatever else too. Doesnt jive then - if the TV is ticking time bomb, right? Im not being argumentative here Im just stating what I see/know. Ive checked fr BI just to see. Nothing.
Wondering how exactly you know that your set will not develop burn-in next day, week, month, or year? Do you have some inside knowledge of how LG's wear compensation functions? And please don't tell me about your plasma... it's a completely different technology that shares virtually nothing in common with OLED.

As an engineer, I'm trying to understand it myself and since LG isn't coming out with any detailed information we can only guess based on available evidence. There have been owners in this and other threads who had zero burn-in for multiple thousands of hours (just like you), then had some marathon session of CNN (maybe election or disaster coverage) or other risky content and suddenly developed burn-in shorty after. This tells me that nobody is really "safe" no matter what you may think. It also proves there is no such thing as "break-in" to prevent future burn-in.

The only logical explanation I can come up with is that LG performs some type of brightness loss compensation on the worn pixels. Most likely there is a limit to how much compensation they can apply before it runs out of range and can't boost those pixels any farther. Once you reach that compensation limit, you will begin a period of rapid burn-in compared to the previous 1000's of hours where burn-in was effectively masked.

We know they claimed these panels had a peak of 1000 nits (in CES interviews and articles like this one). Nobody has ever been able to measure anything close to 1000 nits from any OLED to date. They usually max out at 600-700 nits. Maybe LG Electronics (not LG Display who released the 1000 nit spec) leaves some untapped brightness in reserve so they can slowly apply it as the set ages. Since LG is not talking, I asked in the rtings thread for more data to be collected which would allow us to better estimate what's going on. If they measure no brightness loss at all over a long period of time, and then all of a sudden see brightness loss begin, it would confirm my theory.
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post #394 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 03:35 PM
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Well, I hate to say it but there are a LOT of us that have been using the TV however we want and have no such issues. At all.
If you truly hate to say it, then do us ALL A GIANT FAVOR AND DON'T!!!

Why do you feel the incessant NEED to come into a thread about burn-in warnings and tell everyone that it's not real and doesn't ever happen when it so obviously does??? I was discussing this very thing about 3D on another forum. People who apparently HATE 3D feel this NEED to come in and TROLL about why do they bother making any 3D Blu-Rays anymore when they're DEAD??? Why do they care if other people watch 3D movies at home? What causes them to want to crap one someone else's parade? What is it about humans that they feel the absolute NEED to make THEIR PREFERENCES AND DECISIONS *EVERYONE'S* ???? You see it with TVs here and you see it with everything from politics to religion elsewhere and wars have been started over the need for the few to force their will upon the many. It's the bane of mankind throughout history.

The point here is that's GREAT if your TV has no burn-in at present and maybe it never will. WHAT THE HELL does that have to do with warning people about the possibility of problems ahead of time??? Do you own crap loads of LG stock or something and a few people not buying an OLED might lower your dividends this year or something?

If you don't have the issue, why are you in this thread??? You feel the need to reassure people that these people that got screwed are actually making it up and lying about it? Or they MUST be doing something ridiculous to have it happen? I'm sick of seeing people post in threads they don't even belong in. It's like Windows people registering on Mac forums to tell them how stupid they are to buy Macs.....my god..... Do people have nothing else in their lives but to go trolling in forums about issues and products they don't have and don't own? Is their NEED to force their preference on everyone else in the world that great that they think that's a great way to spend the day???

The bottom line is that I don't care if you don't have burn-in presently!!! Neither did the guy who bought his set yesterday. That in now way means no one else ever will! Telling them they absolutely won't if they don't watch 12 hours of CNN per day doesn't match the experiences some people on these forums have had and you saying it absolutely WON'T happen is tantamount to calling them LIARS. The difference is they are hear to warn and help people. You're just here to call them liars and/or imply they're idiots for believing the "FUD". Does that make you feel better about yourself? Do you have nothing better to do than follow threads that are meaningless to your situation (you don't have the problem)? Having these arguments keep coming up day after day that have NOTHING TO DO WITH the "warning" or updates on the tech is ridiculous. The thread is being taken off-track and off-topic into pissing matches over who own the "best" TV (as in OLED rules and everything else sucks so disregard these warnings and buy OLED *NOW*!) instead of "Why did the CNN logo burn-in permanently watching it an hour or two a day for 8 months".
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post #395 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 04:29 PM
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I think you're reading too much malice into his main motivation for posting here, which is to provide balance for those on the fence, so that the public still has an option besides transmissive in the years to come. When the forum has multiple burn-in threads being bumped, I think that's what encourages him to participate in said threads. It doesn't matter to me that much anymore since 1) 3D has been shelved and 2) LGD can't get the banding situation sorted. I am almost to the point that I don't care if the whole venture burns to the ground. Maybe real QLED or microLED will rise to the occasion after the fact, though the chances are slim in what has largely become a commodity market.
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post #396 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 05:17 PM
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I think you're reading too much malice into his main motivation for posting here, which is to provide balance for those on the fence, so that the public still has an option besides transmissive in the years to come. When the forum has multiple burn-in threads being bumped, I think that's what encourages him to participate in said threads. It doesn't matter to me that much anymore since 1) 3D has been shelved and 2) LGD can't get the banding situation sorted. I am almost to the point that I don't care if the whole venture burns to the ground. Maybe real QLED or microLED will rise to the occasion after the fact, though the chances are slim in what has largely become a commodity market.
Yeah, thanks for getting it. But, these guys are hell-bent so Im not going to bother anymore. They are claiming I said things that I never said, like that burn-in could never happen. I didnt say that. But ya know what? Great. And yes - the burn-in posse has half the freegin OLED forum littered with burn-in threads. All because a handful of people got burn-in. To them, its gauranteed to happen and a worldwide epidemic like the Bird flu. Please. I wish the mods would merge all of them into one big one so the Kumbaya can take place there. Geezus.

And yeah - Ill move onto the next tech if its better when I get ready to upgrade which will be in probably 2-3 years. I have zero loyalty to LG. I just bought my set because it performed better than anything else out there at the time for what I spent.

Its just disappointing that you can barely visit here as a prospective shopper and not get lambasted with negativity in like half the threads. Even if the threads are comparing a few TVs.... boom.... the "saviors of mankind" are there with their capes and silver boots to save the day.

I swear, Im done now in here. Im going to stick to the non burn-in threads now. Really.
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post #397 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 05:21 PM
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I'm just here for the Science. Unfortunately, there's been very little of that lately. Just pointless bickering.

So going over the latest rtings data (pic), it does show a completely flat brightness graph as they approach 2000 hours. They measure that brightness in a small window that does not overlap the burned-in areas. Will be interesting to see if that graph falls off a cliff at some point. That would confirm LG is doing some active compensation until reaching a limit instead of letting the panel dim naturally over time the way plasma and CRT did. I think the latter generation plasmas tried to do an active compensation as well but it wasn't on a per-pixel basis. They just boosted the brightness of entire panel once some pre-determined number of hours was reached. I remember lots of complaints from Panasonic owners that their black levels suddenly increased in brightness. Didn't follow the whole fiasco so maybe they eventually addressed it via firmware update.
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post #398 of 798 Old 12-30-2017, 05:48 PM
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It doesn't matter to me that much anymore since 1) 3D has been shelved and 2) LGD can't get the banding situation sorted. I am almost to the point that I don't care if the whole venture burns to the ground. Maybe real QLED or microLED will rise to the occasion after the fact, though the chances are slim in what has largely become a commodity market.
Glad you're finally coming around to the dark side.

After carefully tracking the progress (or lack thereof to be more accurate) of WOLEDs since 2013, I'm fairly certain that the uniformity issues will not be solved. It will end up just like LCD after decades of futile work. The backplanes themselves share more in common with LCD than any true emissive display and that's where a lot of the uniformity problems originate. Combine that with RGB filters (another legacy LCD feature) and you've got the recipe for continued uniformity issues.

Maybe if this venture dies, it will leave a void for something better to come along. Until id dies, we'll be stuck with it because barrier to entry is becoming impossible with constantly dropping prices. Even if someone else had a better product, they couldn't charge a premium for it currently because according to most reviewers these OLEDs are already perfect.
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post #399 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 02:29 AM
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Glad you're finally coming around to the dark side.

After carefully tracking the progress (or lack thereof to be more accurate) of WOLEDs since 2013, I'm fairly certain that the uniformity issues will not be solved. It will end up just like LCD after decades of futile work. The backplanes themselves share more in common with LCD than any true emissive display and that's where a lot of the uniformity problems originate. Combine that with RGB filters (another legacy LCD feature) and you've got the recipe for continued uniformity issues.

Maybe if this venture dies, it will leave a void for something better to come along. Until id dies, we'll be stuck with it because barrier to entry is becoming impossible with constantly dropping prices. Even if someone else had a better product, they couldn't charge a premium for it currently because according to most reviewers these OLEDs are already perfect.
I am curious about this backplane thing. I thought OLED worked much like a plasma and that backlighting was handled by each pixel since it makes its own light and of course can turn off its light. So, I don’t get why uniformity has issues on these sets. I expect it with LCD and "zones", uneven backlighting, edge lighting, etc.

No doubt some reviewers go overboard with OLED praise. I do too sometimes. They are not perfect at all. No TV is and may never be! When I eventually upgrade if there is another tech, including LCD that gets the things right that I desire then that’s what I’ll be buying. Period!

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post #400 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 11:09 AM
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I think you're reading too much malice into his main motivation for posting here, which is to provide balance for those on the fence, so that the public still has an option besides transmissive in the years to come.
Malice? No. Ego? Absolutely. My choice is the best. These people are full of it. It happens to hardly anyone so IGNORE this "warning thread" entirely. It hasn't affected some of us, "AT ALL." Yeah, he never said it NEVER happens. I read too much into "AT ALL" as if "not yet" somehow means "not ever".

Some probably never will see burn in. People who use Blu-Ray players (instead of set-top boxes with software like AppleTV or KODI that have repetitive menu overlays) and rarely if ever watch regular TV (all Netflix or Hulu or whatever) and don't play games with overlays, etc. probably have little to no chance of getting burn-in. Others might not get it for years.

My old Panasonic 1998 57" CRT HDTV that never had burn-in when I had it sure as heck has burn-in now that my mother has it at her house (still working over 19 years later!) Years of 4:3 programming was all it took, apparently (I either rarely watched it or used a stretch mode when I had it). But even so, it didn't burn in for over 3 more years after I gave it to her. It doesn't always happen overnight. Some things are cumulative and people should at least be aware of what can cause it to happen. OLED is apparently not how long at a time, but how much over ANY length of time. That KODI menu might not burn-in for a few years, but keep using it and it just might later on. I've seen no evidence of that particular behavior on my plasma thus far (now almost 7 years old), but that doesn't mean it never will if I keep using the same menu system.

The question is how much of those activities will lead to burn-in on OLED? Are these problems a manufacturing defect on SOME panels or some years of production or some models or sizes or is it more common and activity has more to do with it? At least SOME of the panels manufactured can burn-in with relatively few hours according to some reports. How accurate is human reporting? There's room for questions, but this back and forth, "It happens" and "It hardly ever happens" is annoying as hell. Go create a thread like the old advocacy newsgroups use if you want to play "Everything else sucks" games. This thread is about a WARNING to possible future OLED buyers. I'd expect to see new test data, new reports from people experiencing an issue or long term reports from new people not experiencing issues (for balance as someone said), but what's driving me bonkers is this tit-for-tat reply to put down anything anyone says that agrees there's an issue. That's not reporting. It's bickering.

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When the forum has multiple burn-in threads being bumped, I think that's what encourages him to participate in said threads. It doesn't matter to me that much anymore since 1) 3D has been shelved and 2) LGD can't get the banding situation sorted. I am almost to the point that I don't care if the whole venture burns to the ground. Maybe real QLED or microLED will rise to the occasion after the fact, though the chances are slim in what has largely become a commodity market.
What's 3D got to do with it? It's not worth buying "any" TV ever again if 3D isn't included or was OLED special in its handling of 3D that nothing else compares?

Personally, I think 3D is getting the shaft purely because people didn't exactly adopt regular BD in droves (too many other options now with streaming and many smaller sized sets don't show "huge" differences between SD and HD at 10+ feet viewing distances. I have a friend to this day who still buys only DVDs because he said he can't see any difference at all on his TV.) Yeah, sitting 20 feet away from a 50" set isn't conducive to HD viewing. Thus, trying to push 4K (purely because this means they can sell TVs at higher prices than the 1080p sets were going for) seems to be their sole motivation. If it were entirely numbers, they wouldn't keep releasing 3D BDs to the rest of the world. The US seems to be the test ground for the 4K PUSH. This wouldn't have been an issue if they included 4K 3D from the start.
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post #401 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 11:37 AM
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To paraphrase Voltaire, sure, the next non-existent better technology is the enemy of the currently great OLED tech. Anyone that wants to just wait for that perfect technology is welcome to do so, I am sure no one will force you to buy OLED in the meantime. Though it may be a long wait. I myself would prefer a non-organic light emitter that does not degrade, trouble is those are complex to produce at reasonable cost currently for mass consumerization.
So here we are, I knowingly buy into a tech that could get burn in if I wear it unevenly because there just isn't anything that I will be able to afford for at least 10 years that will be better in terms of PQ at the cost.

However, being aware of the limitations - everything has limitations that can be abused if you go outside of that - it's still the best choice for my uses, which are about 25% cable channels, 50% streaming and movies, 25% game play.

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post #402 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 11:56 AM
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I am curious about this backplane thing. I thought OLED worked much like a plasma and that backlighting was handled by each pixel since it makes its own light and of course can turn off its light. So, I don’t get why uniformity has issues on these sets. I expect it with LCD and "zones", uneven backlighting, edge lighting, etc.

No doubt some reviewers go overboard with OLED praise. I do too sometimes. They are not perfect at all. No TV is and may never be! When I eventually upgrade if there is another tech, including LCD that gets the things right that I desire then that’s what I’ll be buying. Period!
There are many causes of non-uniformity on LCD. Uneven backlighting is just one of them.

Fundamentally, LCD and OLED backplanes both use TFT's to control the amount of light generated by each pixel. In fact most of the early OLED production lines were converted LCD lines. These type of backplanes are difficult to produce consistently because of material and process variances. Those variances are further magnified when combined with the current driven design of OLED.

Plasma was akin to a passive matrix backplane. There were no TFT's in the design. Each cell was directly driven by two horizontal and vertical intersecting electrodes that covered the whole panel. It was a much simpler backplane.

This probably isn't the right thread for an in-depth discussion. There are plenty of google links explaining how Plasma and OLED/LCD backplanes work.

Getting back to the topic at-hand, I found this link from 2016 that somewhat covers one method of wear compensation on OLED. Sounds like LG might be licensing this tech already. Look at pages 12, 23, and 24.

"A timing controller stores the measurement data for every TFT and OLED in a lookup table (in DRAM, backed up using a FLASH memory). The controller then uses that data to boost the video data going to aged or nonuniform pixels"

You can see that without compensation, the OLED brightness deteriorates fairly quickly and burn-in is accelerated. With compensation, you get a flat-line in OLED brightness (just as seen in the rtings graphs I linked above). The graphs in this paper end at 2000 hours so it's unclear how long such compensation can be effective before hitting maximum range of the "boost". They also don't say at what peak brightness the pixels are being driven which will also play a role in overall lifetime before compensation starts to fail.

The unfortunate side of these kinds of compensation schemes is that you will have no warning of gradual burn-in while the compensation is still working correctly. Since LG does not warranty against burn-in, the least they could do is report somewhere in the UI via pop-up warnings when any of your pixels are reaching maximum boost and are at the end of their compensation range.
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post #403 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 11:57 AM
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Magnum, this is fortunately/unfortunately (depending on your perspective) an open discussion forum for laymen, so there will be much more content than data posted. I mentioned 3D in passing because it serves as a platform for my interest personally (apologies if that's too egocentric ), and UHD OLED is the best home presentation you can get (next to some projectors), so much so that I couldn't give a flip about the format before witnessing it on said display tech. Also, the vertical banding problem is much the same (a bother to me). Fortunately, my viewing habits put burn-in concerns pretty far down on the totem pole (and I have no problem pampering the TV when viewing risky content). I've got 3 OLED TVs with 10k hours cumulated aggregately, so that might help to explain why I appear to be dismissive (I'm not).

Wizz, I've always been critical of the banding problem, but if WOLED goes up in smoke, I'm afraid that LCD likely will continue to dominate aggressively in price and suppress the chances of any new emissive tech taking root in the market.

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post #404 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 12:26 PM
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Suggest you go back and read the first post in this thread. My B6 CANNOT be used as a "TV" nor can it tolerate 30% usage watching news channels, regardless of the frequency of commercial interruptions. My BI was noticed due to this warning after ~ 2,000 hours and my BI is from "DOW" and "Market Alert" on FBN.

THANKS TO THIS THREAD I CAUGHT IT BEFORE IT COULD BECOME WORSE. My B6 was bought to replace a living room TV, a Toshiba CFL which has no FBN BI after 50,000+ hours although it has some DSE from age, etc.

My B6 did not come with a sticker which says, "AVOID NEWS CHANNELS". It is my practice to watch the market while I work in the AM and at the market close. Had I known any of this, might have bought a Z9(?) or similar.

If there is a class action lawsuit, I'd like a new panel although this one is otherwise decent. The BI is not noticeable in most content at 8' - 9' although quite obvious on a golf course at 3'. All this could have been avoided with a warning. Currently I just listen with the screen off, and if I actually need to SEE what's on the program, I can watch on the now bedroom Toshiba.

Anyway..., seems to me you incessantly ignore the whole point of this thread. Your defense of OLED is boring. Whether YOU will get BI remains to be seen and is irrelevant to the warning of this thread. HOWEVER, if you take to watching any of the documentary stations, e.g. Travel Channel, Smithsonian, et al., these now have static red or yellow logo elements..., so in this case too..., your days may be numbered. (No clue how/if white logo elements will eventually produce BI.)

Of course, my B6 has great blacks and contrast. Is THAT just for movie-watchers? I think not.
+1
lot more expected from a 3K+ Tv, not sure why people with newer set and have not observed BI think people with BI are in minority, Rtings report is facts on OLED BI and not in minority, it is just mater of time people will get BI if they watch news channels.
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post #405 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
There are many causes of non-uniformity on LCD. Uneven backlighting is just one of them.

Fundamentally, LCD and OLED backplanes both use TFT's to control the amount of light generated by each pixel. ....
I am pretty sure you are wrong about OLED's using TFT to control lighting. https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1474618766

If you look at the article you will see that LED is much more complex to produce than WOLED displays. In fact, look through all the comparisons between LCD and OLED on that page and you may learn something.
RGB OLED would be even simpler because the color would be within the emitter - thereby eliminating another layer. Inorganic displays could be just as simple without the relatively quick degradation that organic has.

This is why WOLED panels are as bendable as they are, because they don't use TFT.

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post #406 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 01:34 PM
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The question is how much of those activities will lead to burn-in on OLED? Are these problems a manufacturing defect on SOME panels or some years of production or some models or sizes or is it more common and activity has more to do with it? At least SOME of the panels manufactured can burn-in with relatively few hours according to some reports. How accurate is human reporting? There's room for questions, but this back and forth, "It happens" and "It hardly ever happens" is annoying as hell. Go create a thread like the old advocacy newsgroups use if you want to play "Everything else sucks" games. This thread is about a WARNING to possible future OLED buyers. I'd expect to see new test data, new reports from people experiencing an issue or long term reports from new people not experiencing issues (for balance as someone said), but what's driving me bonkers is this tit-for-tat reply to put down anything anyone says that agrees there's an issue. That's not reporting. It's bickering.
It is well established that relatively small variations in the OLED manufacturing process can significantly influence OLED lifetime (see, for example, https://www.nature.com/articles/srep38482 for a discussion of the significant effects small amounts of impurities in the vacuum deposition chamber may have on OLED lifetime). I suspect, but obviously don't have any hard data at this point, that LG's manufacturing variability may playing a role in how many hours of static content are required before BI is readily detectable in their OLED displays.

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It is well established that relatively small variations in the OLED manufacturing process can significantly influence OLED lifetime (see, for example, https://www.nature.com/articles/srep38482 for a discussion of the significant effects small amounts of impurities in the vacuum deposition chamber may have on OLED lifetime). I suspect, but obviously don't have any hard data at this point, that LG's manufacturing variability may playing a role in how many hours of static content are required before BI is readily detectable in their OLED displays.
if it is true then LG is liable for the BI, on contrary they refused to do so, due to this even square trade is not accepting this failure for warranty. we all know that LG will never accept it on paper until some one drag them to court and get the document out of manufacturing data which suggest that these small number of panel have BI issue due to variation in manufacturing.
I am not sure how SONY will deal with this issue as it is LG panel, not sure what is Panasonic and Philips are doing on their OLED panels for BI sold in Europe.

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post #408 of 798 Old 12-31-2017, 08:14 PM
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I am pretty sure you are wrong about OLED's using TFT to control lighting. https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1474618766

If you look at the article you will see that LED is much more complex to produce than WOLED displays. In fact, look through all the comparisons between LCD and OLED on that page and you may learn something.
RGB OLED would be even simpler because the color would be within the emitter - thereby eliminating another layer. Inorganic displays could be just as simple without the relatively quick degradation that organic has.

This is why WOLED panels are as bendable as they are, because they don't use TFT.
Nope, OLED still requires backplanes. Here's another informative read: http://www.nverpix.com/backplaneproblem/

And here's an older article specifically about WOLED that explains the architecture LGD is using: https://www.avforums.com/article/lg-...e-future.10746

Pertinent quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LGD
To produce an OLED panel there are three stages, creating the TFT (thin film transistor) backplane, the OLED patterning and the encapsulation. LG have chosen to use an Oxide TFT for the backplane, which is what creates the electrical current. For the OLED patterning itself, LG are using WRGB (white, red, green, blue) OLED which they feel offers distinct advantages. Finally for the encapsulation which protects the Oxide TFT and WRGB OLED from moisture and other contaminants, LG are using a Solid Phase Encapsulation (SPE).

LG believe that the combination of Oxide TFT and WRGB OLED results in a higher uniformity for larger screen sizes and is compatible with existing LCD production facilities. As a result, yield rates have been increased substantially and whilst not currently as high as for LCD panels, they are much closer. LG expect these yield levels to improve further in 2015 and, as a result, they think prices will fall considerably.
I am LOL'ing at that admission since uniformity is still a wreck 4 years later. I believe the electrical current delivery to provide equitable lighting across the entire screen near black continues to be the real ballbuster for LGD.
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Originally Posted by John1948 View Post
It is well established that relatively small variations in the OLED manufacturing process can significantly influence OLED lifetime (see, for example, https://www.nature.com/articles/srep38482 for a discussion of the significant effects small amounts of impurities in the vacuum deposition chamber may have on OLED lifetime). I suspect, but obviously don't have any hard data at this point, that LG's manufacturing variability may playing a role in how many hours of static content are required before BI is readily detectable in their OLED displays.
The panel variability makes sense as in the reason why certain users experience BI and others don’t. I bet there will plenty of us that never get it. We got good panels, I guess.

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The panel variability makes sense as in the reason why certain users experience BI and others don’t. I bet there will plenty of us that never get it. We got good panels, I guess.

If this hypothesis is indeed correct, the next question becomes how many hours of static content are required for burn in to develop in “good” panels versus “bad” panels (and those in between the two extremes).

We know from Rtings.com testing (sample size = 1) and some AV Forum posters (including myself) that burn in can develop in some panels after 200-900 hours of static red, yellow or orange content with an OLED Light setting of ca. 60. A key question is whether the panels developing burn in in the 900 cumulative hour range are the “good” panels, “bad” panels or those in the middle ground? In increasing the sample testing size, Rtings.com’s next set of OLED burn tests should be quite helpful in helping us to answer this question.

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If this hypothesis is indeed correct, the next question becomes how many hours of static content are required for burn in to develop in “good” panels versus “bad” panels (and those in between the two extremes).

We know from Rtings.com testing (sample size = 1) and some AV Forum posters (including myself) that burn in can develop in some panels after 200-900 hours of static red, yellow or orange content with an OLED Light setting of ca. 60. A key question is whether the panels developing burn in in the 900 cumulative hour range are the “good” panels, “bad” panels or those in the middle ground? In increasing the sample testing size, Rtings.com’s next set of OLED burn tests should be quite helpful in helping us to answer this question.
Yeah - we also need to figure why some panels apparently will never see this happen since there are plenty of users that have nothing to report. I may not watch CNN or MSNBC but full seasons of hockey, various football games, basketball, etc all year long surely puts my set with repeated logos/tickers/scoreboards for appreciable amounts of time in the danger zone. At least somewhat? Right? My daytime or sports viewing mode has the backlight at 65. Certainly not low. The rest of the settings are bright enough to vut through ambient light so Im not babying it here.

IMO, it may be a better objective to find the panels that DONT have IR or burn-in and figure out why they are seemingly immune to it. Is it better comp cycles? Is it better pixel management? Is it because I did a "plasma-ish" break-in period? Is it how the panel was attached to the glass? Who knows.

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With 8K coming out on 10.5 LG OLED fab plant,just maybe burn in is a thing of the past.
The screen will be showcased by LG Display, LG’s display production arm, which suggests that it is a prototype panel – at least for now. The company told Korean media that it was developed using a new, innovative production process, adding that OLED is better suited for 8K than LCD technology due to lower cost and power consumption.

Achieving 8K resolution on a 88” panel suggests that it has been produced at the company’s upcoming 10.5-gen OLED factory – perhaps on a pilot production line. To date, LG has produced 55, 65, and 77” OLED TVs at a 8-gen factory in Korea.

The company recently said that it aims to introduce the first consumer 8K OLED TV in 2019 and smaller-size OLED TVs in late 2019 or 2020.
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Yeah - we also need to figure why some panels apparently will never see this happen since there are plenty of users that have nothing to report. I may not watch CNN or MSNBC but full seasons of hockey, various football games, basketball, etc all year long surely puts my set with repeated logos/tickers/scoreboards for appreciable amounts of time in the danger zone. At least somewhat? Right? My daytime or sports viewing mode has the backlight at 65. Certainly not low. The rest of the settings are bright enough to vut through ambient light so Im not babying it here.

IMO, it may be a better objective to find the panels that DONT have IR or burn-in and figure out why they are seemingly immune to it. Is it better comp cycles? Is it better pixel management? Is it because I did a "plasma-ish" break-in period? Is it how the panel was attached to the glass? Who knows.
Here is my anecdote after 8+ months and ~2000 hours - more than 8 hrs/per day of browsing internet (it's the only display for my HTPC), cable news and video, couldn't see anything unusual on all red or yellow background. The distribution will be close to -

Firefox browsing - 65%
News channels - 20%
Movies / TV shows - 10%
Xbox gaming - 5%

Both firefox and news channels have some static content and I looked closely at the top part where the tabs show but didn't notice anything unusual. Even the news channel is via Sling TV and the minimize/maximize/close buttons are common with Firefox - nothing there either.

I'll check again in few months but at this point my March 2016 E6 panel seems to be holding up pretty well.
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Here is my anecdote after 8+ months and ~2000 hours - more than 8 hrs/per day of browsing internet (it's the only display for my HTPC), cable news and video, couldn't see anything unusual on all red or yellow background. The distribution will be close to -

Firefox browsing - 65%
News channels - 20%
Movies / TV shows - 10%
Xbox gaming - 5%

Both firefox and news channels have some static content and I looked closely at the top part where the tabs show but didn't notice anything unusual. Even the news channel is via Sling TV and the minimize/maximize/close buttons are common with Firefox - nothing there either.

I'll check again in few months but at this point my March 2016 E6 panel seems to be holding up pretty well.
Thanks for the update and info. Like I said, we also need to figure out why a large number of sets that are being used in ways that one would think is somewhat risky arent seeing problems. Im also this camp. Lots of sports, tickers, stuff like that. Just not seeing any problems. Its like the burned in sets were doomed right out of the box or something wasnt right immediately with the comp cycles or some other panel-related thing.

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Thanks for the update and info. Like I said, we also need to figure out why a large number of sets that are being used in ways that one would think is somewhat risky arent seeing problems. Im also this camp. Lots of sports, tickers, stuff like that. Just not seeing any problems. Its like the burned in sets were doomed right out of the box or something wasnt right immediately with the comp cycles or some other panel-related thing.
Are there any documented cases of displaying static red, yellow or orange content (eg, CNN, MSNBC logo, etc) at an OLED Light setting of 60, or greater, for more than 500 hours that have not resulted in OLED screen burn in? There may be, I just haven’t seen anyone precisely state this. If so, I would really like to see the post(s).

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post #416 of 798 Old 01-01-2018, 06:37 PM
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I think the variability in manufacturing is interesting as it relates to burn in. I've got 4717 hours on my B6 and have no signs of burn in. I don't watch allot of news channels but do watch allot of football/basketball with static scores and scrolls at that the bottom and have played a decent amount of PS4 with huds. My daughter also watches a ton of bubble guppies with the Nick logo in orange on this set.

For almost the entire time I've had the set I've had my Oled at 65 per the settings in the link below:

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post #417 of 798 Old 01-02-2018, 10:17 AM
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all the info from users who have not experienced BI is also important, so the question is
1) why LG not acknowledging the BI and fix the panel under warranty
2) what is the explanation of people having BI in shorter period of time, Rtings test shows it could happen at certain colors.
3) why customers are used as guinea pigs for process variation if this causes it.

if it is $500 set the conversation could be different, these sets are sold as top of line tvs, some of us paid around 5K for these sets, so far the failures are bizarre. 5K Kuro plasmas have mostly IR, BI requires lot of abuse and that could be diminished.
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Do some people really think that LG hasn't run any burn in tests and QC on their Oleds? They must be pretty confident about denying burn in cases. Emmisive tech is prone to burn in but only if you let the TV for hours and hours with static images.

unfortunately some left the TV on news for hours and hours. This TV run a comp cycle every 4 hours ,if you watch a lot of news then turn the TV off every 4 hours and let it run its comp cycle.You will see a red light on the back were the vents are,it will turn off after it finish the comp cycle.


Yes we have cases of tint and banding but it seems that is inherent to Oled.What I woud like LG to do is to add more info about Bi in the owners manual.

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post #419 of 798 Old 01-02-2018, 01:43 PM
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all the info from users who have not experienced BI is also important, so the question is
1) why LG not acknowledging the BI and fix the panel under warranty
2) what is the explanation of people having BI in shorter period of time, Rtings test shows it could happen at certain colors.
3) why customers are used as guinea pigs for process variation if this causes it.

if it is $500 set the conversation could be different, these sets are sold as top of line tvs, some of us paid around 5K for these sets, so far the failures are bizarre. 5K Kuro plasmas have mostly IR, BI requires lot of abuse and that could be diminished.
Some of us paid (much) more. I guess you could say the more one paid, the more conscientious they're going to be about static imagery.
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Do some people really think that LG hasn't run any burn in tests and QC on their Oleds? They must be pretty confident about denying burn in cases. Emmisive tech is prone to burn in but only if you let the TV for hours and hours with static images.

unfortunately some left the TV on news for hours and hours. This TV run a comp cycle every 4 hours ,if you watch a lot of news then turn the TV off every 4 hours and let it run its comp cycle.You will see a red light on the back were the vents are.
One of my E6's developed burn in from about 200 total viewing hours of CNN over a six month period of time, a couple of hours at a sitting. Not exactly abuse in my mind.

I would love to see LG served a class action suit to see what is in LG's records that will come out during the discovery process.
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