Troubles with LG OLED "Burn IN" and LG - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by John1948 View Post
With all due respect, I feel your post is not reflecting the reality that a number of owners are seeing permanent "burn in" develop on their LG OLED under NORMAL, NON-EXTREME viewing conditions.

If people want to "roll the dice" and take a chance that their set will not have a problem, I respect that decision. I can not guarantee that their set will develop "burn in" under normal, viewing conditions. However, based upon the data that is being presented on this forum, you, nor I, can guarantee that their set will not develop "burn in" under normal viewing conditions. And we all know that, if the set does develop "burn in" under normal viewing conditions, LG will not guarantee against this possibility either.

So, how much confidence does LG have in its OLED TVS?
Look, I don't want to get into a debate with you about what constitutes 'NORMAL' viewing habits, so let's see if we can agree on what constitutes 'VIDEOPHILE' vewing habits:

-primarily random content, ideally dominated by blurays, streaming, anf logo-free TV/cable
-gaming, but limited to 15% or less of overall viewing for any individual game
-any individual channels limited to 15% or less of overall viewing

If we can agree that these guidelines are reasonable for what a AVERAGE VIDEOPHILE watches, and not a GAMER-VIDEOPHILE or a NEWS JUNKIE-VIDEOPHILE, then we can recommend OLED wthout hesitation to those whose viewing habits fall within these guidelines for NORMAL VIDEOPHILES.

If you watch over 15% CNN or CNBC or game over 15% on any individual game, it may be too early to jump on the OLED bandwagon just yet.

But if you can pretty comfortably be sure your viewing will not have over 15% on any specific screen with bright static components (especially CNN, CNBC, individual games), then you can pretty safely purchase a 2017 or 2016 OLED TV .
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post #62 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Look, I don't want to get into a debate with you about what constitutes 'NORMAL' viewing habits, so let's see if we can agree on what constitutes 'VIDEOPHILE' vewing habits:

-primarily random content, ideally dominated by blurays, streaming, anf logo-free TV/cable
-gaming, but limited to 15% or less of overall viewing for any individual game
-any individual channels limited to 15% or less of overall viewing

If we can agree that these guidelines are reasonable for what a AVERAGE VIDEOPHILE watches, and not a GAMER-VIDEOPHILE or a NEWS JUNKIE-VIDEOPHILE, then we can recommend OLED wthout hesitation to those whose viewing habits fall within these guidelines for NORMAL VIDEOPHILES.

If you watch over 15% CNN or CNBC or game over 15% on any individual game, it may be too early to jump on the OLED bandwagon just yet.

But if you can pretty comfortably be sure your viewing will not have over 15% on any specific screen with bright static components (especially CNN, CNBC, individual games), then you can pretty safely purchase a 2017 or 2016 OLED TV .
By the way, another comment to add for prospective WOLED owners:

If you primarily watch with lights on from directly in front of the TV, you probably shouldn't be considering OLED if you have any concerns regarding 'care and feeding' (which means accepting some restrictions on content to avoid burn-in).

LED/LCD is better/safer for heavy gamers and/or heavy CNN/CNBC watchers and pretty much matches OLED in all but viewing in the dark/dim and viewing from off-angle.

Limiting non-random static-content viewing to under 15% is a non-issue for me and we watch movies in the dark, so there was no 'care and feeding' cost for us to gain the benefits OLEDs perfect blacks (and the true 'floating' image that delivers). But if you have any concerns about your viewing habits naturally and easily fitting these guidelines, stay away from OLED unless you really value perfect blacks and superior off-angle viewing...
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post #63 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Look, I don't want to get into a debate with you about what constitutes 'NORMAL' viewing habits, so let's see if we can agree on what constitutes 'VIDEOPHILE' vewing habits:

-primarily random content, ideally dominated by blurays, streaming, anf logo-free TV/cable
-gaming, but limited to 15% or less of overall viewing for any individual game
-any individual channels limited to 15% or less of overall viewing

If we can agree that these guidelines are reasonable for what a AVERAGE VIDEOPHILE watches, and not a GAMER-VIDEOPHILE or a NEWS JUNKIE-VIDEOPHILE, then we can recommend OLED wthout hesitation to those whose viewing habits fall within these guidelines for NORMAL VIDEOPHILES.

If you watch over 15% CNN or CNBC or game over 15% on any individual game, it may be too early to jump on the OLED bandwagon just yet.

But if you can pretty comfortably be sure your viewing will not have over 15% on any specific screen with bright static components (especially CNN, CNBC, individual games), then you can pretty safely purchase a 2017 or 2016 OLED TV .
Good discussion

Your suggestion for content viewing guidelines based upon a "videophile" profile would be fine and good if this was the way LG marketed its OLED TVs. However, LG understands that if they limit marketing OLED TVs to only "videophiles" their market will be much smaller than if they target the broader market of consumers who just appreciate a "good picture" to watch "whatever" and can drop $2000+ on a TV on impulse without flinching. For LG this may be an aggressive marketing approach but the consequences are the average consumer meeting this criteria probably doesn't want to, and won't, "baby" a TV but yet will certainly not expect it to develop permanent damage using factory settings after as little as 1% of its projected lifetime (100,000 hours). For many, $2000 isn't a lifestyle changing purchase but they don't expect it to crap out after six months use either as then it does not fall into "the quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten" category.
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post #64 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
By the way, another comment to add for prospective WOLED owners:

If you primarily watch with lights on from directly in front of the TV, you probably shouldn't be considering OLED if you have any concerns regarding 'care and feeding' (which means accepting some restrictions on content to avoid burn-in).

LED/LCD is better/safer for heavy gamers and/or heavy CNN/CNBC watchers and pretty much matches OLED in all but viewing in the dark/dim and viewing from off-angle.

Limiting non-random static-content viewing to under 15% is a non-issue for me and we watch movies in the dark, so there was no 'care and feeding' cost for us to gain the benefits OLEDs perfect blacks (and the true 'floating' image that delivers). But if you have any concerns about your viewing habits naturally and easily fitting these guidelines, stay away from OLED unless you really value perfect blacks and superior off-angle viewing...
But do understand that if LG had to develop and manufacture an OLED TV exclusively for the videophile viewer you are describing, as opposed to the more general affluent population, the economics of scale would be horrible and you probably would not be able to afford the price LG would have to charge and the market would be economically unattractive to LG. From a display manufacturer's standpoint, the investment in OLED TVs is only attractive if the market is large and expands well beyond the early adapter hobbyists.

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post #65 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Its only an issue if the use case is extreme and the fact remains that the vast majority of users will NEVER experience burn-in. Ever. If you leave your set 24/7 with news channels running then I'd prolly go for an LCD. If you game a lot and have the potential for falling asleep with static game screens sitting there for hours on end, Id consider something else. Those are pretty extreme use cases, IMO. Most of us have zero issues. Dont be afraid. I had the same concerns with buying plasmas and it was silly. My KURO and Samsung/Panny plasmas were wonderful TVs that blew away anything else out there. Id have missed out on GREAT PQ over really nothing. Buy it and savor the lucious performance. Dont let forum banter stop you from enjoying a great TV.
Your statement is misleading and inaccurate. You're making it sound that the only way one can get burn in is by "displaying news channels 24/7" or "falling asleep with static game screens sitting there for hours on end." Most of the reports of burn in we've seen in these threads are from what most average consumers would consider normal use - watching the same news channel or playing the same game for a few hours a day. So, it's NOT "only an issue if the use case is extreme" as you put it. I speak from experience. Our set got burn in from watching the same news channel only a few hours a day. It's okay to have your personal doubts, but please don't downplay or diminish the experiences others have posted.

Your statement that the vast majority of users will never experience burn in with OLED is probably true, at least in the realm of AVS, where most owners are videophiles and people very familiar with the limitations of the technology. In the mass market, there are many, many consumers that watch a single news channel for hours day or play a single game for hours a day. For them, OLED may not be the best choice if they care about burn in.
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post #66 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 05:01 PM
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Recently many consumers have pleasant experience with Plasma TV tech which has a more severe IR and Burn In problem than OLED TV tech. So people here make it much worse than it really is.
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post #67 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Recently many consumers have pleasant experience with Plasma TV tech which has a more severe IR and Burn In problem than OLED TV tech. So people here make it much worse than it really is.
my tv has severe burn in, but its only $4500
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post #68 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Recently many consumers have pleasant experience with Plasma TV tech which has a more severe IR and Burn In problem than OLED TV tech. So people here make it much worse than it really is.
Thank you for your detailed technical analysis.

Some people enjoy dental surgery almost as much as "burn in" in plasma displays. So, what is your point?

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post #69 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 06:21 PM
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I am just stating what is general knowledge here at AVS. It is also known that emissive TV tech has such problems...and that some samples are more susceptible than others.
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post #70 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I am just stating what is general knowledge here at AVS. It is also known that emissive TV tech has such problems...and that some samples are more susceptible than others.
Yes, but here in the US, companies are held accountable for what they publish in their advertisements versus what the performance of the product actually is. It's called "truth in advertising".

And, if "some samples are more susceptible than others", this is not an acceptable excuse for providing product that does meet its intended use.

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Originally Posted by Morille Tremblay View Post
Are your calling someone who watch news for more than 15% of the time A NEWS JUNKIES ?
I couldn't agree more. I would term people who watch news more than 15% of the time "informed".
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post #72 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 06:59 PM
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So I am sitting here watching a crappy NFL preseason game with a static Fox 9 logo on the upper right of my screen and a static score and time box in the upper left. Average NFL game 3 hours...If it is January and I am looking at 4 feet of snow out the window and I binge watch NFL games on any given Sunday does this spell trouble for IR/burn in?
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post #73 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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So I am sitting here watching a crappy NFL preseason game with a static Fox 9 logo on the upper right of my screen and a static score and time box in the upper left. Average NFL game 3 hours...If it is January and I am looking at 4 feet of snow out the window and I binge watch NFL games on any given Sunday does this spell trouble for IR/burn in?
If you're watching the Vikings in recent years it always spells trouble.
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post #74 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 07:07 PM
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Yes, but here in the US, companies are held accountable for what they publish in their advertisements versus what the performance of the product actually is. It's called "truth in advertising".

And, if "some samples are more susceptible than others", this is not an acceptable excuse for providing product that does meet its intended use.
Welcome to the TV world It is not any different when you buy a LCd...lots of problematic samples. Unfortunately the only thing you can do about it is do lots of reading before you buy a TV..and make use of the knowledge you gather.
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post #75 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 07:11 PM
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If you're watching the Vikings in recent years it always spells trouble.
I am 53 and a life long Vikings fan so I have suffered in silence for years of misguided hope. I now only watch the Vikings to be entertained and if they win it is a bonus. I can't get emotionally involved anymore.
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Originally Posted by Morille Tremblay View Post
We're taking about CNN here, not Reuters, it's entertainment, not news.

Still think 15% is quite low . News junky for me is 40%+ more
We'll have to agree to agree to disagree on whether CNN is "news" or "entertainment". In my opinion, FOX and MSNBC veer towards "entertainment" while CNN, although less rigorous than in the past, is pretty unbiased and does provide factual content in adddion to opinion.
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I am 53 and a life long Vikings fan so I have suffered in silence for years of misguided hope. I know only watch the Vikings to be entertained and if they win it is a bonus. I can't get emotionally involved anymore.
I remember the four disastrous Super Bowls.

Met Randy Moss a couple of years ago. He was actually quite nice and funny in person.
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post #78 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 07:18 PM
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Welcome to the TV world It is not any different when you buy a LCd...lots of problematic samples. Unfortunately the only thing you can do about it is do lots of reading before you buy a TV..and make use of the knowledge you gather.
I actually did quite a bit of research before buying my 55b6p. After reading the forums here I was under the impression that burn in was unlikely unless used as a PC monitor. Now it seems that even modest gaming could be problematic. I imagined that people who buy these sets would also be avid gamers.

I'm just hopeful that my geek squad warranty will come in handy if my set develops BI.
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post #79 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 08:51 PM
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Has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe the real problem here is watching the news?

Anyway, if my majority usage was CNN I would by the $400 special and call it a day.
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post #80 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by John1948 View Post
No premeditated bias against LG-just stating the facts.


If you would read through the threads you reference, you will find numerous reports of Lg's OLED displays developing permanent "burn in" under what most buyer's would consider "normal" operating conditions. And you will also see reported LG's unwilingness to stand behind its OLED TV products for this defect.


If you were going to spend $2000+ on an LG TV would you not want to know the facts before you purchased it?

The only thing ridiculous about posts on Lg's OLED TV "burn in" problem is LG's releasing a product that develops "burn in" under normal operation conditions, issuing statements minimizing the risk, and then refusing to stand behind the product by denying warranty coverage for a defect it states should not develop except on the rarest of circumstances, but does.
+1
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post #81 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by no1special View Post
Agreed, but the WOLED burn in poll is currently at about 15% of OLED TVs exhibiting burn in, and that's in an enthusiast forum. Think about how many averaged OLED consumers out there use their TVs to watch cable news a few hours a day or game, that will never visit this forum. I bet the rate is higher in the mass market, but even 15% is too high. A low failure rate would be around 3-5%.
15% is way too high! Those are class action lawsuit numbers.
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post #82 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 10:40 PM
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We'll have to agree to agree to disagree on whether CNN is "news" or "entertainment". In my opinion, FOX and MSNBC veer towards "entertainment" while CNN, although less rigorous than in the past, is pretty unbiased and does provide factual content in adddion to opinion.
lol, all 3 are corporate regurgitation merely intended to inflate ratings. Last 10 months of CNN summed up:

As for NFL binge-viewing. I watched NFL weekly on my 65" G6 this past season every Sunday and saw no lasting traces of IR/burn-in fortunately.
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post #83 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
lol, all 3 are corporate regurgitation merely intended to inflate ratings. Last 10 months of CNN summed up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw2BVI9OhC4

As for NFL binge-viewing. I watched NFL weekly on my 65" G6 this past season every Sunday and saw no lasting traces of IR/burn-in fortunately.
Same here...I watch as many games as I can on Sundays no ir as well.
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post #84 of 158 Old 08-10-2017, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
You need to go into the ZT/VT forums and Pioneer forums. BI was a issue with some within the first year. Just like OLED. And just like plasma, the vast majority will not have BI issues. I bet if you bought a floor model plasma with 3200 hours on it, you would have seen burn in just like you did on your OLED.
As a former 65VT60 owner burn in could be an issue with one MAJOR DIFFERENCE. You could easily get rid of any permanent burn in by running the screen wipe function or pixel flipper, burn in video on youtube and put the set in torch mode and most of it will be gone in a day. I was playing a video game for longer than I should have and the HUD display started to burn in on the right hand corner. I ran my screen wipe on the panel and the Disney WOW pixel flipper for a day or two and it permanently went away no longer visible with any content.

That said I did have permanent burn in from the Oppo logo from my BDP-103 as did others. I played mostly blurays for the first 200 hours and had never needed to break in a display before as my priors were Pioneer Elite rear projectors. That said the Oppo logo was only visible in extremely select content with an almost excusively white image such as Harry Potter 7 part 2 chap. 6 if memory serves.

Now if you are seeing severe IR or BI on an Oled IME running the manual compensation cycle is essentially worthless. Running 24 hours of pixel flipper burn in youtube videos on a 12 hour loop will simply just add hours to your TV. Once BI is apparent you are already screwed and no temporary fix is going to improve it unlike Plasma.
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post #85 of 158 Old 08-11-2017, 05:18 AM
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Now that is funny. CNN is definitely very biased.

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Originally Posted by John1948 View Post
We'll have to agree to agree to disagree on whether CNN is "news" or "entertainment". In my opinion, FOX and MSNBC veer towards "entertainment" while CNN, although less rigorous than in the past, is pretty unbiased and does provide factual content in adddion to opinion.
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post #86 of 158 Old 08-11-2017, 05:18 AM
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Your statement is misleading and inaccurate. You're making it sound that the only way one can get burn in is by "displaying news channels 24/7" or "falling asleep with static game screens sitting there for hours on end." Most of the reports of burn in we've seen in these threads are from what most average consumers would consider normal use - watching the same news channel or playing the same game for a few hours a day. So, it's NOT "only an issue if the use case is extreme" as you put it. I speak from experience. Our set got burn in from watching the same news channel only a few hours a day. It's okay to have your personal doubts, but please don't downplay or diminish the experiences others have posted.

Your statement that the vast majority of users will never experience burn in with OLED is probably true, at least in the realm of AVS, where most owners are videophiles and people very familiar with the limitations of the technology. In the mass market, there are many, many consumers that watch a single news channel for hours day or play a single game for hours a day. For them, OLED may not be the best choice if they care about burn in.
Well, the "mass market" ought to not bother with OLED for more reasons than burn-in. They dont appreciate PQ and are better served by Wal-Mart LCDs running in torch mode to be honest. .

I never meant to imply that it *couldnt* happen under normal use, rather its extremely rare. Yes, us AVS dorks are a finniky bunch but I still believe that even the average Joe will be fine with an OLED. If burn-in was really that rampant and widespread then we'd all have it and it'd be front page news right under news regarding problems with North Korea!

Everyone watches some TV channels with logos. We watched the entire NHL playoffs on our set and NBC Sports & NBC standard have tons of overlays, graphics, tickers, etc. No issues. All day long hockey from like Noon until 10:30pm when the west coast games finished.

Again, this exact same scenario played out with plasma. Been there, played that game. And just like with plasma, its a rare problem that simply wont effect most users. For certain users they are better off with an LCD for various reasons. Otherwise, OLED provides damned good PQ.

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post #87 of 158 Old 08-11-2017, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Morille Tremblay View Post
What kind of denial is that.

How blind do you r need to be to claim your need to abuse the tv 24-7 to get burn in.

What about you would say, watching 2-3 hours of CNN a day .
Denial? Sorry but most users dont have burn in. Period. never said you had to watch news 24/7 to get burn in only that using the TV normally will not be an isue for the overwhelming majority of users.

As Ive said in multiple other threads....actually, nevermind. Everyone needs to buy the TV that makes them happy.

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post #88 of 158 Old 08-11-2017, 06:13 AM
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If most people do not have any problems and others with normal usage do have than maybe there is a technical fault in some tv's compensation circuits ?
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post #89 of 158 Old 08-11-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dieselboyx View Post
I actually did quite a bit of research before buying my 55b6p. After reading the forums here I was under the impression that burn in was unlikely unless used as a PC monitor.
Yes. That would be my impression to. At the start/beginning of OLED TV sales/threads there was only one sample with a burn in problem which was a demo model in a store in London. The thing is that these OLED TVs are only be sold for a few years now, it take some time before the complaints start to pop-up. Keep in mind that we are still in the early adapter phase, we do not fully know what we are dealing here with...stuff like longevity etc...
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post #90 of 158 Old 08-11-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Morille Tremblay View Post
You're telling me PRO-630HD abused his TV by having the tv system menu burned in?

Also what is normality for you? AVS users sure are not in the normal range, they are the outlier of user. Dedicated lover of TV technology. You forget about the average soccer mom family that will use their TV without knowing that leaving CNN on for 4 hours a day at default oled light level is risky. Those families are the normal user, not you and me.

Again LG should have made a better job warning about risk. Just like Sony did in their instruction manual.
Im not aware of the Pro630D situation. Im sure it happened. Sorry that it did.

As for soccer Moms and the average Joe - they shouldnt but high-end TVs(OLED, LCD, any of them) for many reasons. As I said, the main reason is that the PQ is wasted on them. They install the thing over the fireplace, turn it on and leave it in torch mode for the rest of its life. Total waste IMO. Like buying a Ferrari 488 GTB when you live in a place with nothing but dirt roads and fields. So for them, yes, perhaps "normal" for them might cause burn-in. I dunno.

It is what it is. Or something like that. This topic is beat to death though. I think we're good here. Im done.

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