Rtings OLED Burn-In Tests...Updated - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Got it. So even though you experienced this on a 65" Sony panel (from LGD), it could be that LGE only suffered from this issue on some 55" panels (as they stated).
Good question, but swear there are others out there with the same issue with their LG TVs.

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post #512 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post
Yes, that would be a test I'd really like to see since I watch my displays at 120cd/m2 or close to that. As a frequent gamer who plays some games with red and yellow in the HUDs, the whole burn-in issue is an interest for me. I see the burn-in/anti-burn in artifact showing up on the fifa 18 magenta screen and I'd like to know if that would still be the case had the set been at 120cd/m2 instead of the 200 I think they have it set at.

Given I am going to be buying a C8, I hope this is even less an issue on it than it seems to be on the '17 models which itself doesn't seem to be a huge issue.
It would be great to convince rtings.com to begin a C8P burn-in test early enough to have meaningful results will in advance of the Holidays...

Repeat CNN Max test @ 380cd/m2 on 2 C8Ps to confirm results against 2017 test and check for panel-to-panel variance.

Repeat CNN test @ 200cd/m2 on 2 C8Ps to hopefully confirm LG has made some improvements in overcompensation and provide a second check for panel-to-panel variance.

Perform identical CNN test @ 120cd/m2 on at least 1 C8P to confirm that overvompenpensation does not get even worse at lower luminance levels.

Perform identical CNN test @ 240cd/m2 & [email protected]% to confirm that double-intensity-for-half-time gives the same results as base-intensity-for-full-time (and a 3rd defacto check for panel-to-panel variance).

Doesn't Cedric participate in the Forum? Does anyone remember his handle to send him a PM?
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post #513 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
It would be great to convince rtings.com to begin a C8P burn-in test early enough to have meaningful results will in advance of the Holidays...

Repeat CNN Max test @ 380cd/m2 on 2 C8Ps to confirm results against 2017 test and check for panel-to-panel variance.

Repeat CNN test @ 200cd/m2 on 2 C8Ps to hopefully confirm LG has made some improvements in overcompensation and provide a second check for panel-to-panel variance.

Perform identical CNN test @ 120cd/m2 on at least 1 C8P to confirm that overvompenpensation does not get even worse at lower luminance levels.

Perform identical CNN test @ 240cd/m2 & [email protected]% to confirm that double-intensity-for-half-time gives the same results as base-intensity-for-full-time (and a 3rd defacto check for panel-to-panel variance).

Doesn't Cedric participate in the Forum? Does anyone remember his handle to send him a PM?
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Originally Posted by VidPro View Post
Good question, but swear there are others out there with the same issue with their LG TVs.
Wouldn't shock me a bit. There are alot of moving parts to this whole 'ramping up a new dispkay technology' game...

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the work LG engineers have been doing (both LGD and LGE), but beyond that, seems as though the left hand often doesn't know what the right foot is doing...
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post #514 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
It would be great to convince rtings.com to begin a C8P burn-in test early enough to have meaningful results will in advance of the Holidays...

Repeat CNN Max test @ 380cd/m2 on 2 C8Ps to confirm results against 2017 test and check for panel-to-panel variance.

Repeat CNN test @ 200cd/m2 on 2 C8Ps to hopefully confirm LG has made some improvements in overcompensation and provide a second check for panel-to-panel variance.

Perform identical CNN test @ 120cd/m2 on at least 1 C8P to confirm that overvompenpensation does not get even worse at lower luminance levels.

Perform identical CNN test @ 240cd/m2 & [email protected]% to confirm that double-intensity-for-half-time gives the same results as base-intensity-for-full-time (and a 3rd defacto check for panel-to-panel variance).

Doesn't Cedric participate in the Forum? Does anyone remember his handle to send him a PM?
Rtings buys their own sets (as you know), and there's no way LG will give them a C8 to torture test BI. Rtings should open up a gofundme for TVs to add to the test. A couple 2018 C8s, A1Es and AF8s will cost > $10,000, and I'd definitely throw them a few bucks to make that happen.
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post #515 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Factory Defect & Fix - OLED Burn in Test Update Week 10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX0AXzWm2cI
My 9800 has this box, visible on a grey slide
Wonder if I should give them a call

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post #516 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bumrush2049 View Post
Rtings buys their own sets (as you know), and there's no way LG will give them a C8 to torture test BI. Rtings should open up a gofundme for TVs to add to the test. A couple 2018 C8s, A1Es and AF8s will cost > $10,000, and I'd definitely throw them a few bucks to make that happen.
Well, they purchased all 6 of the WOLEDs used in the 2017 test, so they appear to have the resources...

Also, they are hiring, so everything seems to be 'up and to the right' at rtings.com and I wouldn't blindly assume they need to pass a hat before being able to start a test on 2018 WOLEDs.

It's possible they'd prefer to wait for prices to come down out of the stratosphere to save on costs (meaning ~August) but it's also possible that if they ask LGE, they can get a rebate/incentive to purchase 6 C8s sooner rather than later and get a new test started. Certainly can't hurt to ask, in any case.

And I'd see no point in testing additional brands of TVs using LGs WOLED panels. It's a near-certainty that LGE will be at the head of the pack as far as protection/compensation technologies for WOLED burn-in. Whether Sony is neck-and-neck with LGE or a year behind is of secondary concern (and the owner threads here on AVS will be sufficient to determine that).

GoFundMe to purchase Sony WOLEDs coukd becan interesting way to get financial support for that additional test but it eoukd be great to see rings.com begin testing the fundamental limits of LGs newly-launched 2018 burn-in protection and compensation technologies using their now well-honed test methodology by mid-year...

If they begin the test by late June, they can get to 3000 hours of cumulative CNN hours by Black Friday...
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post #517 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
My 9800 has this box, visible on a grey slide
Wonder if I should give them a call
Absolutely. Give LG a chance to put their money whre their mouth is .
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post #518 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
My 9800 has this box, visible on a grey slide
Wonder if I should give them a call
Absolutely. Give LG a chance to put their money whre their mouth is [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG].
I’ll do it tomorro and report back, us 9800 owners always wondered where that box was from and always assumed it coincided with the back panel/power box of the tv
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post #519 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 02:08 PM
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Incredibly disappointing. I wish they would just release how best to avoid the issue of burn in - does lower OLED light actually help? Does mixing content after static imagery help?
It feels like there's no concrete information to this problem and I was hoping they would at least address the issue of burn in - after all that's what the test is about.
I feel like BI is easily preventable by just mixing up your content... i.e. don't watch CNN for 16 hours a day. Don't fall asleep with the TV on CNN. If you are one of those that watches tickered programming every waking moment... change the channel every now and then.

My case is pretty straightforward... 90% of my viewing is BR/UHD BR movies both widescreen and fullscreen. The other 10% is the girlfriend's Big Brother/Survivor/Real Housewives with some Air Disasters thrown in via Smithsonian Channel. Outside of the SC logo I don't see much static logos...

I watch in a dark blackout curtained living room and my OLED light is less than 35 because if I wanted a bright screen I'd have bought a QLED. After 450 hours of usage... I've seen no IR or BI.

Don't expect to either. It didn't happen with the 7 year old plasma I just upgraded from... so I have no reason to believe it will happen with the OLED.

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I'm not one of the ones that purchased WOLED to watch hours upon hours of cable news, so I understand there are other owners who remain concerned.
Same here. Like I told the girlfriend... I didn't buy the OLED to watch Comcast.
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Last edited by TravisPNW; 04-10-2018 at 02:12 PM. Reason: ... added quote
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post #520 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 02:09 PM
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I’ll do it tomorro and report back, us 9800 owners always wondered where that box was from and always assumed it coincided with the back panel/power box of the tv
I'll be hoping they will fix it for you!
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post #521 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 02:20 PM
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I’ll do it tomorro and report back, us 9800 owners always wondered where that box was from and always assumed it coincided with the back panel/power box of the tv
You're right, I remember that now (and I've always assumed the same whenever seeing those images). Will be very interestef in how LG responds...

If you're lucky, they'll agree to send a tech who will take the back off of your 9800, connect into a special service port, and re-run the anti-Mura algorithm in a way that makes that box disappear from your WOLED forever...
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post #522 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TravisPNW View Post
I feel like BI is easily preventable by just mixing up your content... i.e. don't watch CNN for 16 hours a day. Don't fall asleep with the TV on CNN. If you are one of those that watches tickered programming every waking moment... change the channel every now and then.

My case is pretty straightforward... 90% of my viewing is BR/UHD BR movies both widescreen and fullscreen. The other 10% is the girlfriend's Big Brother/Survivor/Real Housewives with some Air Disasters thrown in via Smithsonian Channel. Outside of the SC logo I don't see much static logos...

I watch in a dark blackout curtained living room and my OLED light is less than 35 because if I wanted a bright screen I'd have bought a QLED. After 450 hours of usage... I've seen no IR or BI.

Don't expect to either. It didn't happen with the 7 year old plasma I just upgraded from... so I have no reason to believe it will happen with the OLED.



Same here. Like I told the girlfriend... I didn't buy the OLED to watch Comcast.
I'm about 650 hours ahead of you on my 65C6P (1100 hours total) with no signs of burn-in either. Similar viewng styles in a similar environment with similar settings...

This whole burn-in issue is really only an issue for those who watch alot of cable news on their WOLEDs.

Heavy gamers as well, though games generally do a better job of providing HUD controls...

Oh, and anyone who streams with yellow subtitles can get into trouble as well. Now there's an additional burn-in content test someone could suggest to rtings.com that would be more meaninful than the 4 tests (FIFA, etc...) that their 2017 test has demonstrated are non-issues.
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post #523 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
My 9800 has this box, visible on a grey slide
Wonder if I should give them a call
Same here...And this was AFTER a replacement for 10+ dead subpixels. Let us know how it goes...
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post #524 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 08:56 PM
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I'm struggling to understand the dissapointment.

The fact that LG deployed as significant of a 'fix' to evidence of burn-in between 2016 and 3017 is impressive. You're not going to see any evidence of dark burn-in on 2017 WOLEDs like you see on 2016 WOLEDs (at least until headroom is exhausted, which should mean ,any 1000s of hours . You are going to see some % of panels overcompensate for modelled differential-aging, which result in anti-burn-in for some heavy CNN/MSNBC watchers.

From my perspective, LG got the message that susceptibility to burn-in was code-red last year, they responded and quickly deployed some pretty darned impressive new compensation technology (just compare 2016 and 2017 images after equivalent hours of use), and they are keeping a close eye on rtings.com burn-in tests and will continue to assure that their WOLED TV offerings 'look' as close yo LED/LCD results with each passing year.
Let me see if I can clue you in on why some people might be disappointed.

LG straight out confirmed that every OLED panel has a different resistance to burn-in. I don't know how you can see that as good news. We essentially now have another panel lottery to worry about in addition to long standing vertical banding lottery, piss stains lottery, dead pixel lottery, etc. (at least the 3D filter lottery is behind us. )

Since LG has confirmed there will be variance in every TV's response to burn-in causing content, no amount of predictive compensation logic is going to help in all cases. What works for one panel, will not work for another.

There is nothing impressive about their accomplishment. They licensed this tech in 2016 from Ignis and finally deployed it on the 2017 lineup. It was not a rapid response to anything.

The fact it took them 5 years to acknowledge and offer a fix for that 25% rectangle which has plagued their TV's since the original 2013 model is also disappointing and not an indicator of rapid service.

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By 2016 and the arrival of the B/C/E/G6P, LG got it about right and WOLED is largely a distant memory today...
If only that were true.
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post #525 of 1075 Old 04-10-2018, 11:14 PM
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Let me see if I can clue you in on why some people might be disappointed.

LG straight out confirmed that every OLED panel has a different resistance to burn-in. I don't know how you can see that as good news. We essentially now have another panel lottery to worry about in addition to long standing vertical banding lottery, piss stains lottery, dead pixel lottery, etc. (at least the 3D filter lottery is behind us. )
This may be true/fact or it may not be true. The only way to know for certain will be for independant testing sites like rtings.com to perform identical tests on multiple samples of the same TV (which they have not done up to now). Occam's razor suggests anothe explanation is at least equally probable (tuning of compensation technology to worst-case conditions that do not yet correctly estimate burn-in under less-severe conditions).

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Since LG has confirmed there will be variance in every TV's response to burn-in causing content, no amount of predictive compensation logic is going to help in all cases. What works for one panel, will not work for another.
May be true, more likely not.

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There is nothing impressive about their accomplishment. They licensed this tech in 2016 from Ignis and finally deployed it on the 2017 lineup. It was not a rapid response to anything.
I suspect you have little/no experience with engineering and development/deployment of new technologies. I do. I'm probably guilty of being more understanding than I should be, but I stand by my assessment that the speed/responsiveness with which LG has succeeded to deploy new technologies to address this 'new' problem of burn-in is impressive...

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The fact it took them 5 years to acknowledge and offer a fix for that 25% rectangle which has plagued their TV's since the original 2013 model is also disappointing and not an indicator of rapid service.
You crack me up - if not for the rtings.com test results, we would not even be aware of this 'problem' and would not even be considering it a 'defect'. No one, including EA9800 owners, EG9600 owners, EF9500 owners, and B/C/E/G6P owners ever considered it a significant enough issue to complain about before now.

So because LG has acknowledged because of the rtngs.com results that this 25% rectangle on some % of screens is a manufacturing defect they can imorove upon, they are 'dissapointing' and 'slow' in service to customers Please.

Perhaps you've not been aware that LG has had far more significant fish to fry since 2013, including the move from 1080p to 4K, vignette, yellow-piss-stain, color-gamut, the brightness wars, and most-recently differential-aging-related burn-in.

I, for one, am very impressed with the efficiency and rapidity with which LG has taken WOLED from a proof-of-concept that Kodak had neither the vision nor the financial resources to exploit to a technology that is now ready for prime-time and on the cusp of dominating profits in the TV industry...
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post #526 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
This may be true/fact or it may not be true. The only way to know for certain will be for independant testing sites like rtings.com to perform identical tests on multiple samples of the same TV (which they have not done up to now). Occam's razor suggests anothe explanation is at least equally probable (tuning of compensation technology to worst-case conditions that do not yet correctly estimate burn-in under less-severe conditions).


May be true, more likely not.


I suspect you have little/no experience with engineering and development/deployment of new technologies. I do. I'm probably guilty of being more understanding than I should be, but I stand by my assessment that the speed/responsiveness with which LG has succeeded to deploy new technologies to address this 'new' problem of burn-in is impressive...



You crack me up - if not for the rtings.com test results, we would not even be aware of this 'problem' and would not even be considering it a 'defect'. No one, including EA9800 owners, EG9600 owners, EF9500 owners, and B/C/E/G6P owners ever considered it a significant enough issue to complain about before now.

So because LG has acknowledged because of the rtngs.com results that this 25% rectangle on some % of screens is a manufacturing defect they can imorove upon, they are 'dissapointing' and 'slow' in service to customers Please.

Perhaps you've not been aware that LG has had far more significant fish to fry since 2013, including the move from 1080p to 4K, vignette, yellow-piss-stain, color-gamut, the brightness wars, and most-recently differential-aging-related burn-in.

I, for one, am very impressed with the efficiency and rapidity with which LG has taken WOLED from a proof-of-concept that Kodak had neither the vision nor the financial resources to exploit to a technology that is now ready for prime-time and on the cusp of dominating profits in the TV industry...
Well said! Agree on all counts here. Funny you mentioned Kodak. I used to work for Kodak for a subsidiary(I am still employed with the subsidiary as we speak) that got spun off when they went bankrupt. One of the many discussions that came up during the bankruptcy was the fact that Kodak never leveraged any of their good isdeas into profit makers - like OLED technology! Sadly, that moron Antonio Perez was insistent on inkjet printing being the savior. Right.... uh huh....

As for LG - they've done a great job with OLED. The burn-in thing is extremely overblown anyways. I think its great that RTINGS is doing some of these tests but its obvious that they are extreme and not indicative of what most people would ever get close to doing. But, whatever.
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post #527 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 04:06 AM
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Yes, this is almost certainly confirmation of variability in aging rate between panels.

There is, however, another explanation:

It's now almost certain that LGs 2017 aging-compensation technology involves estimating cumulative subpixel dispkay profile and compensating for modeled agig based on those subpixel-level profiles.

Understandably, LG was probably most concerned about the most severe conditions that induce burn-in, meaning OLED Light at 100 (or at least at default of 80).

So whatever agibg model they developed, it was probably most extensively tested, tuned, and qualified at a high OLED Light setting.

So either the 'estimated subpixel profile' could be overestimating cumulative supbixel use at lower levels of OLED Light or the aging model could be overstimating the aging for cumulative hours of use at lower OLED Light levels (which have been properly estimated).

Either way, the 'system' may just be overcompensating for differential aging at lower levels of OLED Light because it has not been developed or tested there...

Hopegully the 2017 results are good enough that rtings.com decides the only 'real-world' burn-in test to focus on is CNN and gor 2018, they decide to test 4 or 6 C8Ps under 2 or 3 different OLED Light settings using 2 TVs for each setting (2 identical panels recieving identical itest input under identical settings).

In case rtings.com peruses this thread, my suggestion would be to repeat the settings they used for the 2017 test (200 cd/m2 and 380 cd/m2) and add a 3rd OLED Light setting at 120 or 130cd/m3 (or alternatively, 380 cd/m2 or 400 cd/m3 with 50% BFI engaged to prove that effective intensity is the only factor that matters and double intensity with 50% BFI gives the same results as base intensity without).

We're all assuming that lower OLED Light setting is better for avoiding burn-in, but for all we know, watchibg CNN with OLED Light at 120cd/m2 could develope even more severe anti-burn-in than we are seeing at 200 cd/m2...
Or perhaps its just the most logical and obvious explanation based on data from 2016 sets that there is panel to panel variance....as LG have just stated. Its not something LG would want to admit to. So is almost certainly the case.
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post #528 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
This may be true/fact or it may not be true. The only way to know for certain will be for independant testing sites like rtings.com to perform identical tests on multiple samples of the same TV (which they have not done up to now). Occam's razor suggests anothe explanation is at least equally probable (tuning of compensation technology to worst-case conditions that do not yet correctly estimate burn-in under less-severe conditions).


May be true, more likely not.
Direct quote from their article:

"We contacted LG regarding the strange results in week 4. LG engineers visited our lab a few days ago and were able to confirm the 25% window on the Live CNN and FIFA 18 TVs are a result of a factory issue (see our video here). OLED TVs are produced in a hot process, and after cooling a 25% window is shown on each panel. Some TVs which haven't cooled completely can produce invalid results for the lookup table used by the 'Pixel Refresh' function, causing this 25% window to become visible. Only some 55" OLED TVs were affected during part of 2017.
As this is not an issue with the panel itself, it is possible to apply a fix to the lookup table. LG will apply this fix to anyone who presents this issue to their support, for free, even after the warranty period has long expired. They have fixed our two affected TVs (see the uniformity photos below). Note that this doesn't fix other uniformity issues as the result of static content, only the 25% window caused by a factory defect. LG has also confirmed that there is variation between panels, which is why some OLED appear more prone to developing uniformity issues (as in the case with our Live CNN (200 nits) vs Live CNN (Max).)"

If you read the rest of their article, "uniformity" in their context refers to the non-uniformity caused by the burn-in.
I suppose you know more about these TV's than LG engineers.

Quote:
I suspect you have little/no experience with engineering and development/deployment of new technologies. I do. I'm probably guilty of being more understanding than I should be, but I stand by my assessment that the speed/responsiveness with which LG has succeeded to deploy new technologies to address this 'new' problem of burn-in is impressive...
Yes, my electrical engineering degree and over 20 years working on hardware and software in the video game industry mean nothing.

The kind of predictive compensation algorithm you're dreaming up can't work in the real world unless every panel is an exact clone that responds equally when subjected to the same signals and usage history. LG already admitted above that this is not the case. We've had owners like @John1948 who already told you months ago that their two E6 samples which were used for similar content showed differences in their burn-in resistance. You're also conveniently ignoring that 2017 model owners like @venus933 developed traditional "dark" burn-in on their 2017 OLED despite having this new wonderful compensation algorithm. On his unit, the predicted compensation amount was clearly too low. On the rtings.com samples the boost was too high. You will never guess the correct boost amount without a way to externally measure the light coming out of the panel or can produce them in such a way that they all age exactly the same as your wear prediction model.

Quote:
we would not even be aware of this 'problem' and would not even be considering it a 'defect'. No one, including EA9800 owners, EG9600 owners, EF9500 owners, and B/C/E/G6P owners ever considered it a significant enough issue to complain about before now.
Are you even reading anything in this thread? Just a few posts up you have owners who reported this 25% rectangle problem to LG back when the 2013 TVs were released. Some even had their panels replaced under warranty for the issue back then. Problem still persists even on the latest models just released.

I looked at a store demo of the 2018 55C8 this past weekend and it still suffers from this issue (along with same poor uniformity). See attached photos. Rtings.com only tests 50% gray backgrounds. I'd be curious if their near-black images also show a "fix" to this calibration rectangle retention.
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post #529 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 04:38 AM
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I'm struggling to understand the dissapointment.

The fact that LG deployed as significant of a 'fix' to evidence of burn-in between 2016 and 3017 is impressive. You're not going to see any evidence of dark burn-in on 2017 WOLEDs like you see on 2016 WOLEDs (at least until headroom is exhausted, which should mean ,any 1000s of hours [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]. You are going to see some % of panels overcompensate for modelled differential-aging, which result in anti-burn-in for some heavy CNN/MSNBC watchers.

From my perspective, LG got the message that susceptibility to burn-in was code-red last year, they responded and quickly deployed some pretty darned impressive new compensation technology (just compare 2016 and 2017 images after equivalent hours of use), and they are keeping a close eye on rtings.com burn-in tests and will continue to assure that their WOLED TV offerings 'look' as close yo LED/LCD results with each passing year.
Let me see if I can clue you in on why some people might be disappointed.

LG straight out confirmed that every OLED panel has a different resistance to burn-in. I don't know how you can see that as good news. We essentially now have another panel lottery to worry about in addition to long standing vertical banding lottery, piss stains lottery, dead pixel lottery, etc. (at least the 3D filter lottery is behind us. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG])

Since LG has confirmed there will be variance in every TV's response to burn-in causing content, no amount of predictive compensation logic is going to help in all cases. What works for one panel, will not work for another.

There is nothing impressive about their accomplishment. They licensed this tech in 2016 from Ignis and finally deployed it on the 2017 lineup. It was not a rapid response to anything.

The fact it took them 5 years to acknowledge and offer a fix for that 25% rectangle which has plagued their TV's since the original 2013 model is also disappointing and not an indicator of rapid service.

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By 2016 and the arrival of the B/C/E/G6P, LG got it about right and WOLED is largely a distant memory today...
If only that were true. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]
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As of this year i'm beyond caring about burn in, just enjoying my B7 as long as it lasts.

I spent £1,300 on it in September, had an issue with the headphone jack and spent alot of my time baby sitting it after reading about OLED problems. Got a replacement in October (same unavoidable headphone jack issue), but i'm not going to restrict myself anymore.

Been playing the PS4 Pro non stop for long extensive periods since then (HDR games in Ratchet & Clank & Uncharted Lost Legacy) and a mixture of SDR games (Prey, Watchdogs 2, finishing up Skyrim and a couple old PS3 titles), I watch lots of Netflix shows and Amazon Prime (Lucifer only), and my Sky box is connected to it so I generally watch TV (Blacklist, Blindspot, Arrowverse shows, Macguiver, Agents of Shield etc).

No sign of burn in, and i'm not looking for it either. I'm now of the opinion if my set suddenly starts showing my viewing habbits or displaying those huds from HDR games i've been playing, then I know to avoid OLED on my next set, until then going to use it as I please and enjoy it whilst I can.
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post #531 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Karnivore View Post
As of this year i'm beyond caring about burn in, just enjoying my B7 as long as it lasts.

I spent £1,300 on it in September, had an issue with the headphone jack and spent alot of my time baby sitting it after reading about OLED problems. Got a replacement in October (same unavoidable headphone jack issue), but i'm not going to restrict myself anymore.

Been playing the PS4 Pro non stop for long extensive periods since then (HDR games in Ratchet & Clank & Uncharted Lost Legacy) and a mixture of SDR games (Prey, Watchdogs 2, finishing up Skyrim and a couple old PS3 titles), I watch lots of Netflix shows and Amazon Prime (Lucifer only), and my Sky box is connected to it so I generally watch TV (Blacklist, Blindspot, Arrowverse shows, Macguiver, Agents of Shield etc).

No sign of burn in, and i'm not looking for it either. I'm now of the opinion if my set suddenly starts showing my viewing habbits or displaying those huds from HDR games i've been playing, then I know to avoid OLED on my next set, until then going to use it as I please and enjoy it whilst I can.
This is the same view I am taking as I am about to get my first oled. If I get burn in based on my use and my low light level then hey, I get burn in. Obviously I'd prefer not to get it, especially since I retired last year at the age of 39 and trying to live on a fixed budget since I didn't retire because I am mega rich so a 4.5k tv (cdn price) is more of a big expense to me going forward than when I was working. Thing is, the TV isn't going to explode if it gets burn in so for me, no need to be worrying about the chance it happens.

Besides, I have used a plasma will burn in before (not my plasma) and while it is annoying seeing the burned in areas, the display can still be somewhat enjoyed.
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I personally find really good news the lifetime service LG is guaranteeing on the central rectangle. That was a serious concern to be left in the hands of local technicians. A formal stance by them, as a company, goes a long way to reassure me that, were I one of the unlucky ones that get one of those models, I wouldn't be left alone in my "fight" against their customer service.
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post #533 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Karnivore View Post
As of this year i'm beyond caring about burn in, just enjoying my B7 as long as it lasts.

I spent £1,300 on it in September, had an issue with the headphone jack and spent alot of my time baby sitting it after reading about OLED problems. Got a replacement in October (same unavoidable headphone jack issue), but i'm not going to restrict myself anymore.

Been playing the PS4 Pro non stop for long extensive periods since then (HDR games in Ratchet & Clank & Uncharted Lost Legacy) and a mixture of SDR games (Prey, Watchdogs 2, finishing up Skyrim and a couple old PS3 titles), I watch lots of Netflix shows and Amazon Prime (Lucifer only), and my Sky box is connected to it so I generally watch TV (Blacklist, Blindspot, Arrowverse shows, Macguiver, Agents of Shield etc).

No sign of burn in, and i'm not looking for it either. I'm now of the opinion if my set suddenly starts showing my viewing habbits or displaying those huds from HDR games i've been playing, then I know to avoid OLED on my next set, until then going to use it as I please and enjoy it whilst I can.
Understood, it is replaceable and only $$$$ after all. And for all you know, you may have lucked out and have a sample with some BI resistance. Only time will tell if your a lucky winner or not.

But for those with rare, unreplaceable and priceless 3D models the only safe play is to...continue to play it safe.

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post #534 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 09:33 AM
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This may be true/fact or it may not be true. The only way to know for certain will be for independant testing sites like rtings.com to perform identical tests on multiple samples of the same TV (which they have not done up to now). Occam's razor suggests anothe explanation is at least equally probable (tuning of compensation technology to worst-case conditions that do not yet correctly estimate burn-in under less-severe conditions).


May be true, more likely not.


I suspect you have little/no experience with engineering and development/deployment of new technologies. I do. I'm probably guilty of being more understanding than I should be, but I stand by my assessment that the speed/responsiveness with which LG has succeeded to deploy new technologies to address this 'new' problem of burn-in is impressive...



You crack me up - if not for the rtings.com test results, we would not even be aware of this 'problem' and would not even be considering it a 'defect'. No one, including EA9800 owners, EG9600 owners, EF9500 owners, and B/C/E/G6P owners ever considered it a significant enough issue to complain about before now.

So because LG has acknowledged because of the rtngs.com results that this 25% rectangle on some % of screens is a manufacturing defect they can imorove upon, they are 'dissapointing' and 'slow' in service to customers Please.

Perhaps you've not been aware that LG has had far more significant fish to fry since 2013, including the move from 1080p to 4K, vignette, yellow-piss-stain, color-gamut, the brightness wars, and most-recently differential-aging-related burn-in.

I, for one, am very impressed with the efficiency and rapidity with which LG has taken WOLED from a proof-of-concept that Kodak had neither the vision nor the financial resources to exploit to a technology that is now ready for prime-time and on the cusp of dominating profits in the TV industry...
LG has admitted that panel-to-panel variability in its manufacturing process leads to significant differences in sub-pixel lifetimes and you are still in denial?

Maybe you need to reread the definition of Occam's razor:
"Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is the problem-solving principle that, when presented with competing hypothetical answers to a problem, one should select the one that makes the fewest assumptions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

In the case at hand, the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is the one provided by LG's technical representatives who admitted, to the detriment of their own company, that panel-to-panel variability is the issue, not your tiresome speculation.

I don't what kind of new products you claim to have experience in scaling-up but I sincerely hope that they have nothing to do with OLED materials science or chemistry as you clearly don't understand that any competent engineer or scientist in the field would have certainly flagged at the development stage any significant variability in OLED material lifetimes attributable to manufacturing process variables as a top priority issue to be resolved before product release. There seems to be only explanations why this was not the case with LG:
1) LG's development and or manufacturing teams were either too incompetent or sloppy to recognize this as an issue or;
2) LG did recognize this as an issue and just didn't care if they screwed the unfortunate customers who wound up purchasing the low quality end of their panel production that developed burn-in after minimal use and were subsequently denied warranty coverage.

Either explanation is not comforting and probably equally disgusting.

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post #535 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 10:03 AM
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Direct quote from their article:

"We contacted LG regarding the strange results in week 4. LG engineers visited our lab a few days ago and were able to confirm the 25% window on the Live CNN and FIFA 18 TVs are a result of a factory issue (see our video here). OLED TVs are produced in a hot process, and after cooling a 25% window is shown on each panel. Some TVs which haven't cooled completely can produce invalid results for the lookup table used by the 'Pixel Refresh' function, causing this 25% window to become visible. Only some 55" OLED TVs were affected during part of 2017.
As this is not an issue with the panel itself, it is possible to apply a fix to the lookup table. LG will apply this fix to anyone who presents this issue to their support, for free, even after the warranty period has long expired. They have fixed our two affected TVs (see the uniformity photos below). Note that this doesn't fix other uniformity issues as the result of static content, only the 25% window caused by a factory defect. LG has also confirmed that there is variation between panels, which is why some OLED appear more prone to developing uniformity issues (as in the case with our Live CNN (200 nits) vs Live CNN (Max).)"

If you read the rest of their article, "uniformity" in their context refers to the non-uniformity caused by the burn-in.
I suppose you know more about these TV's than LG engineers.
No, I don't. But I also don't take statements to a 3rd party reviewer at face value. I will generally steer towards the simplest explanation for a mystery/problem until I see irrefutable evidence that the explanation must be more complex...

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Yes, my electrical engineering degree and over 20 years working on hardware and software in the video game industry mean nothing.
Fair enough - did not mean to offend. Our backgrounds are similar and the gao between how we view these issues seems more related to our approach than technical background.

You prefer to see the glass half empty and problems complicated enough that resolution will be difficult or impossible, while I prefer to see the glass half full and problems that are solvable given enough time, resources, and priority.

If I was responsible for what LG has achieved with WOLED over the past 5+ years, I'd be pretty darned proud. Listening to you, sounds as though if you were responsible, you'd consider yourself a failure...

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The kind of predictive compensation algorithm you're dreaming up can't work in the real world unless every panel is an exact clone that responds equally when subjected to the same signals and usage history.
No, that's an exaggeration. Panel uniformity merely needs to be within perceptible limits. My suspicion is that the limits of this approach will be much more limited by ability to accurately accumulate and estimate cumulative usage rather than panel-to-panel variation. But at any rate, the 2017 rtings.com results indisputably prove that LG is applying some type of bur-in compensation...

Quote:
LG already admitted above that this is not the case.
LG will say anything to buy more time on this issue. I don't believe anything they say on the subjects of burn-in or uniformity. I'm not even sure the 'engineers' they sent to rtings.com truly understand the science of what is going on at the level we might expect...

Quote:
We've had owners like @John1948 who already told you months ago that their two E6 samples which were used for similar content showed differences in their burn-in resistance.
Nice anecdote but not nearly quantitative enough to be definitive. I mean, come on, who waches the same content on two TVs rtings.com has the rig set up to truly display the 'same content' and when they get different results in two identical TVs with identical settings, that'll be definitive and I'll switch camps.

Until then, it's just too much of a cop-out to blame panel variation, throw your hands up in the air and say 'all is hopeless with WOLED and we're all doomed to suffer from a mega long-term panel lottery which will take years to know if we've gotten lucky or struck out...'

[quote]
You're also conveniently ignoring that 2017 model owners like @venus933 developed traditional "dark" burn-in on their 2017 OLED despite having this new wonderful compensation algorithm. On his unit, the predicted compensation amount was clearly too low.
[quote]
This is a good point (dark burn-in one one user sample) but there are alternative explanations.

One explanation is that LG focused on CNN burn and put all hands on deck for that specific case at max OLED Light. So that specific cause of burn-in is relatively well-compensated for in 2017 WOLEDs but all other sources of screen burn are incorrectly estimated and compensated (both high and low).

The fact that there have been so many fewer reports of burn-in on 2017 WOLEDs (so far) than we saw for 2016 WOLEDs speaks volumes (and more loudly than any individual anecdotes). Now, it's still early for 2017s, but within the next ~3 months we should be in a position to make an apples-to-apples comparison between 2017 and 2016 WOLEDs as far as susceptibility to CNN and MSNBC burn-in...

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On the rtings.com samples the boost was too high. You will never guess the correct boost amount without a way to externally measure the light coming out of the panel or can produce them in such a way that they all age exactly the same as your wear prediction model.
We can both agree on the part in bold. The rest is non-constructive exaggeration.

Quote:
Are you even reading anything in this thread? Just a few posts up you have owners who reported this 25% rectangle problem to LG back when the 2013 TVs were released. Some even had their panels replaced under warranty for the issue back then. Problem still persists even on the latest models just released.

I looked at a store demo of the 2018 55C8 this past weekend and it still suffers from this issue (along with same poor uniformity). See attached photos. Rtings.com only tests 50% gray backgrounds. I'd be curious if their near-black images also show a "fix" to this calibration rectangle retention.
I havecto admit that in my several-years-now of perusing WOLED owner threads, the rectangle as a significant PQ defect escaped me. Stuck subpixels, vignette, anti-vignette, yellow-piss-stain, off-axis color-shift all appeared much more worrisome and significant than this rectangle that many assumed was heat-related (incorrectly, it seems).

Certainly I hope you'll agree that to the extent LG had to prioritize which fires to put out first, addressing PQ defects like vignette was much more important than addressing whatever causes these feint near-black rectangles.

So again, glass half full versus half empty. I'm impressed that LG is now owning up to this low-priority issue and promising to make affected owners whole (forever) while you feel it is unconscionable that LG has taken so long to own up to this obvious and glaring flaw.

I did go back to check my 4% and it appears I won the panel-lottery on this 25% rectangle issue as well...
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post #536 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 10:13 AM
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LG has admitted that panel-to-panel variability in its manufacturing process leads to significant differences in sub-pixel lifetimes and you are still in denial?

Maybe you need to reread the definition of Occam's razor:
"Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is the problem-solving principle that, when presented with competing hypothetical answers to a problem, one should select the one that makes the fewest assumptions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

In the case at hand, the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is the one provided by LG's technical representatives who admitted, to the detriment of their own company, that panel-to-panel variability is the issue, not your tiresome speculation.

I don't what kind of new products you claim to have experience in scaling-up but I sincerely hope that they have nothing to do with OLED materials science or chemistry as you clearly don't understand that any competent engineer or scientist in the field would have certainly flagged at the development stage any significant variability in OLED material lifetimes attributable to manufacturing process variables as a top priority issue to be resolved before product release. There seems to be only explanations why this was not the case with LG:
1) LG's development and or manufacturing teams were either too incompetent or sloppy to recognize this as an issue or;
2) LG did recognize this as an issue and just didn't care if they screwed the unfortunate customers who wound up purchasing the low quality end of their panel production that developed burn-in after minimal use and were subsequently denied warranty coverage.

Either explanation is not comforting and probably equally disgusting.
If Wizziwig's glass is half-empty, I'm afraid your's is all but tapped-out.

The best explanation for what we've been seeing and experiencing is that industrializing and scaling up new technology like WOLED for mass-market consumer applications such as TV is hard, LG's been doing the best they can, there remains a great deal of development and progress to be made, and it's going to be a bumpy ride.

All the rest (including what 'LG' gas suposedly 'admitted') is noise...

(Oh, and did you hear about Samsung and BOLED? Apparently they have stated that they are not working on it )
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If Wizziwig's glass is half-empty, I'm afraid your's is all but tapped-out.

The best explanation for what we've been seeing and experiencing is that industrializing and scaling up new technology like WOLED for mass-market consumer applications such as TV is hard, LG's been doing the best they can, there remains a great deal of development and progress to be made, and it's going to be a bumpy ride.

All the rest (including what 'LG' gas suposedly 'admitted' is noise...

(Oh, and did you hear about Samsung and BOLED? Apparently they have stated that they are not working on it )
I don't understand how some people expect LG to have all the answers for unexpected issues, on a brand new technology
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The fact it took them 5 years to acknowledge and offer a fix for that 25% rectangle which has plagued their TV's since the original 2013 model is also disappointing and not an indicator of rapid service.
Wait a sec, the calibration rectangle burn in has been around that long? That's horrible. That's something entirely within their control and they should've known about it and fixed it.

I was about to reply saying people are being too hard on LG and they deserve credit for showing up and addressing the issues, but this isn't good.
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post #539 of 1075 Old 04-11-2018, 12:07 PM
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Wait a sec, the calibration rectangle burn in has been around that long? That's horrible. That's something entirely within their control and they should've known about it and fixed it.

I was about to reply saying people are being too hard on LG and they deserve credit for showing up and addressing the issues, but this isn't good.
Compared to the tens of thousands of customers complaining about excessive vignette and/or yellow-piss stain, how many do younthink complained about that barely-visible lightened rectangle?

The firemen can't save every home - it's all a question of prioritization and allocation of resources.

The fact that LG is acknowledging / addressing this issue now speaks volumes about how confident LG are feeling about WOLED in general and their ability to answer Samsung's burn-in onslaught in particular...
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Wait a sec, the calibration rectangle burn in has been around that long? That's horrible. That's something entirely within their control and they should've known about it and fixed it.

I was about to reply saying people are being too hard on LG and they deserve credit for showing up and addressing the issues, but this isn't good.
We don't know for a fact at this point
The square on my 9800 mirrors that of the box on back with the electronics in them
I've been swamped at work but will call Lg


Also , I noticed the video says it effects 55' 2017 tvs only and they will warranty the work for 5 years
On hold with lg now

Edit: they want me to email them pictures and then an oled specialist will respond in a couple of days
Kid I spoke with wasn't aware of the rtings video

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