Rtings OLED Burn-In Tests...Updated - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 03:16 PM
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Week 24 results are up. Not looking too good. The max CNN is a mess. 5 of the 6 TVs are starting to show faint BI, some just barely (NBC, COD and FIFA games). See the answer to the last user comment at the end of the article which shows about 3200 hours time. On a positive note, the brightness continues to increase slightly and color gamut is the same. Yes I know this is not a realistic use case and may never happen in real use. I leave the analysis of these tests to others more knowledgeable than I.

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post #722 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakPoint View Post
Week 24 results are up. Not looking too good. The max CNN is a mess. 5 of the 6 TVs are starting to show faint BI, some just barely (NBC, COD and FIFA games). See the answer to the last user comment at the end of the article which shows about 3200 hours time. On a positive note, the brightness continues to increase slightly and color gamut is the same. Yes I know this is not a realistic use case and may never happen in real use. I leave the analysis of these tests to others more knowledgeable than I.
I was just looking at that and noticed you can start to see the FIFA burn-in on the magenta slides as far back as week 8 in the upper left. Once you get to week 10-12 you can really make it out better.

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post #723 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BreakPoint View Post
Week 24 results are up. Not looking too good. The max CNN is a mess. 5 of the 6 TVs are starting to show faint BI, some just barely (NBC, COD and FIFA games). See the answer to the last user comment at the end of the article which shows about 3200 hours time. On a positive note, the brightness continues to increase slightly and color gamut is the same. Yes I know this is not a realistic use case and may never happen in real use. I leave the analysis of these tests to others more knowledgeable than I.
It really a question of whether you want to see the glass hal-full or half-empty.

I think the CNN @ 200 Nits results are pretty remarkable (after 3200 hours).

3200 hours and hardly any signs of burn-in at all except for CNN @ 380 Nits - LGD has pushed out the onset of visible burn-in by over 2500 hours versus 2016 WOLEDs!

For reference, here's what a 2017 WOLED looked like displaying a red logo at 175 Nits after 3200 hours (week 24):
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post #724 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
It really a question of whether you want to see the glass hal-full or half-empty.

I think the CNN @ 200 Nits results are pretty remarkable (after 3200 hours).

3200 hours and hardly any signs of burn-in at all except for CNN @ 380 Nits - LGD has pushed out the onset of visible burn-in by over 2500 hours versus 2016 WOLEDs!

For reference, here's what a 2017 WOLED looked like displaying a red logo at 175 Nits after 3200 hours (week 24):
Are you clicking on the pics to look? I can click on the CNN 200 nits red slide from as far back as week 8 and see BI, even week 6 too if you look closely. At week 12 (half the time frame you mentioned) it's fairly apparent.

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post #725 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 04:51 PM
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Are you clicking on the pics to look? I can click on the CNN 200 nits red slide from as far back as week 8 and see BI, even week 6 too if you look closely. At week 12 (half the time frame you mentioned) it's fairly apparent.
I'm not counting any of the overcompensation (lightened screen areas).

Burn-in is a darkened screen area, not a lightenened screen area from overcompensation of underlying burn-in using brighness headroom reserved for that purpose.

First, the overcompensation is quite mild and unlikely to be visible on content.

Second, overcompensation will improve with subsequent product generations.
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post #726 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I'm not counting any of the overcompensation (lightened screen areas).

Burn-in is a darkened screen area, not a lightenened screen area from overcompensation of underlying burn-in using brighness headroom reserved for that purpose.

First, the overcompensation is quite mild and unlikely to be visible on content.

Second, overcompensation will improve with subsequent product generations.
So...is the "overcompensation" going to go away, or is the (hypothetical) red image stuck like that from that point on? If it were on someone's set then I doubt they would care that it's "a lightenened screen area from overcompensation of underlying burn-in using brighness headroom reserved for that purpose.". Maybe I just used an imprecise term. But it's a stuck image that ruins that part of the picture, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

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post #727 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BreakPoint View Post
Week 24 results are up. Not looking too good. The max CNN is a mess. 5 of the 6 TVs are starting to show faint BI, some just barely (NBC, COD and FIFA games). See the answer to the last user comment at the end of the article which shows about 3200 hours time. On a positive note, the brightness continues to increase slightly and color gamut is the same. Yes I know this is not a realistic use case and may never happen in real use. I leave the analysis of these tests to others more knowledgeable than I.
That was my request to Rtings that they include total panel hours. I figured it would be an interesting plot point, and keep the math estimations to a minimum. I just wish I would have thought to ask earlier in the testing when initial signs of burn in appeared.
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post #728 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 06:48 PM
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That was my request to Rtings that they include total panel hours. I figured it would be an interesting plot point, and keep the math estimations to a minimum. I just wish I would have thought to ask earlier in the testing when initial signs of burn in appeared.
The formula is pretty straightforward:

Total hours = #weeks x 7 days/week x 20 hours/day = #weeks x 140 hours.

Their actualy reporting comes within 1% of the estimats I've been making since day 1...
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post #729 of 1075 Old 07-13-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
So...is the "overcompensation" going to go away, or is the (hypothetical) red image stuck like that from that point on? If it were on someone's set then I doubt they would care that it's "a lightenened screen area from overcompensation of underlying burn-in using brighness headroom reserved for that purpose.". Maybe I just used an imprecise term. But it's a stuck image that ruins that part of the picture, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, the overcompensation fades as soon as the headroom is exhausted.

Look at CNN Max at week 16 (when overcompensation reached its peak) and compare to week 18 when it reversed and dark burn-in appeared for the first time).

The stuck image associated with burn-in is truly stuck and cannot be reversed.

Overcompensation is an algorithm-generated artifact that can be reversed through a SW/FW update (or continued underlying burn-in).
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post #730 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 12:24 AM
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I think this test proves that if you watch a normal range of tv channels and content(like the majority of people) you are not going to get any sort of burn in and if you abuse it by watch a news channel all day every day or play the same game all day every day you will get screen burn
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post #731 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by woppy101 View Post
I think this test proves that if you watch a normal range of tv channels and content(like the majority of people) you are not going to get any sort of burn in and if you abuse it by watch a news channel all day every day or play the same game all day every day you will get screen burn
Except it's cumulative, or at least that is what is believed. So varying content doesn't matter as much as total hours used. People have reported OLED burn in already from cumulative watching of something and not abusive, unending viewing.

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post #732 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 08:11 AM
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Except it's cumulative, or at least that is what is believed. So varying content doesn't matter as much as total hours used. People have reported OLED burn in already from cumulative watching of something and not abusive, unending viewing.
Varying content has nothing to do with it.

Watching content with the same static content for over an hour per day every day of the year (or 2 hours per day every other day of the year) has everything to do with it.

If you watch ~300 hours of the same static content over the course of a year, you will develop visible burn in after ~2 years on a 2016 WOLED.

You will also develop burn-in on a 2017 WOLED but it will take much longer (~10 years @ 300 hours cumulative / year) at OLED Light near max, more than 12 years TBD with OLED Light set for 200 cd/m2).

There has not yet been a single reported case of burn-in on a 2017 WOLED while this time last year, there was what seemed like a virtual tsunami of teports of burn in on 2016 WOLEDs...
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post #733 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 08:52 AM
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Unless you count the Korean airport occurrence.
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post #734 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Unless you count the Korean airport occurrence.
Expending effort to understand/analyze an outlier is a waste of time, but if you believe you understand the facts surrounding that use case, I'd be happy to try.

In general, my sense is the following:

-First reports of burn-in on 2016 WOLEDs emerged in April 2016 and accelerated by summer, about a year after introduction.

-Those cases of burn-in were primarily examples of frequent CNN/MSNBC watchers that accumulated hundreds of hoyrs of cumulative static logo content watching over the course of a year.

-The Rtings.com 2016 burn-in test proved that noticable burn-in of red can occur after only 560 hours at 175cd/m2, so 2 hours of CNN a day for a full year, and there you go: http://i.rtings.com/images/burn-in-t...-red-large.jpg

-Someone analyzed the rtings images and confirmed that burn-in at the 5% level become noticable (meaning a burned-in logo which has 95% brightness on a field at 100% brightness).

-For 2017, LG reserved an undetermined amount of brightnessvheadroom to enable burn-in compensation technology. That headroom was obviously at least 5% and may be as much as 15% or 20% (TBD).

-At 200 cd/m2, the burn-in compensation technology has largely succeeded to mask burn-in for 3360 hours (week 24): http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/t...-red-large.jpg

-Those owners who are viewing ~600 hours of CNN or MSNBC per year at 200 cd/m2 or less and not going to develope visible burn-in for 5+ years and so we have had no reports from any of them on 2017 WOLEDs a year after introduction.

-Even those owners who are viewing ~600 hours of CNN or MSNBC per year at 375 cd/m2 (OLED Light = 100) are not going to develope visible burn-in for 4+ years (2500 hours - week 18): http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/t...-red-large.jpg

-The net-net out of all of this is that we have not yet seen any,reports of burn-in on 2017 WOLEDs one full year after introduction and we are unlikely to see any such reports from any other than cable news addicts warching over 1000 hours of CNN or MSNBC per year until 2020...

As I said before, bravo, LG .
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post #735 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 11:55 AM
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Actually, and there's every chance I'm misremembering or mentally misfiling reports, but I might have seen a solitary BI complaint about 2017 here. However, I'm not keeping the kind of comprehensive tabs on the situation that you are.
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post #736 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Actually, and there's every chance I'm misremembering or mentally misfiling reports, but I might have seen a solitary BI complaint about 2017 here. However, I'm not keeping the kind of comprehensive tabs on the situation that you are.
I doubt it (but am open to being proven wrong).

Now, store demo that may have displayed static content or a repeated loop at OLED Light 85 on the showroom floor for 1 year+ could be as severe as the rtings.com test, so that would not count (new 2017 WOLEDs for personal use only).
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post #737 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 07:23 PM
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video_analysis memory was correct.

2017-lg-oled-burn-pictures
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post #738 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
video_analysis memory was correct.

2017-lg-oled-burn-pictures
Fair enough.

Looking at the severity of the burn-in, I'd eye-ball that it matched week 18 of the 2017 CNN Max burn-in magnitude, possibly week 16,

That means 16 to 18 x 7 x 20 hours = 2240 to 2520 cumulative hours of static logo/element display.

Venus 933 reported the burn in after only 2000 hours of total usage, so something is not adding up.

It's almost like he ended up with a 2016 WOLED rather than a 2017...

Would like to understand more about his C7 burn-in experience but have not seem him post on AVS forcsomev time - is he still active?
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post #739 of 1075 Old 07-14-2018, 09:25 PM
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@fafrd if you tag him he wil probably get a notification @venus933 . He just posted 2 days ago.

Just use this symbol @ followed by the username.
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post #740 of 1075 Old 07-15-2018, 11:00 AM
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It adds up if you either accept what LG told rtings regarding large panel variances or you assume that venus left his set paused on the youtube interface for 2000+ hours. Is that even possible considering LG has that fireworks screensaver on most of their apps?

Given what LG told them, rtings should run their next experiment with at least 2 sets (preferably more) running the same exact content and settings to verify their claims.
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post #741 of 1075 Old 07-16-2018, 05:32 PM
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Has there been any photos of ESPN logo and ticker burn-in? All I'm seeing is mentions of CNN and MSNBC for the most part.
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post #742 of 1075 Old 07-16-2018, 10:56 PM
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Has there been any photos of ESPN logo and ticker burn-in? All I'm seeing is mentions of CNN and MSNBC for the most part.
Never seen any mention of ESPN - is the logo always on and always in the same place?

Picture appreciated.

The CNN burn-in appears to be caused by those who watch 1-2 hours of CNN pretty much each and every day (hundreds of cumulative hours per year), so one would probably need to watch 7-14 hours of CNN per week to rise to an equivalent number of cumulative hours per year...
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post #743 of 1075 Old 07-17-2018, 04:49 AM
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Never seen any mention of ESPN - is the logo always on and always in the same place?

Picture appreciated.

The CNN burn-in appears to be caused by those who watch 1-2 hours of CNN pretty much each and every day (hundreds of cumulative hours per year), so one would probably need to watch 7-14 hours of CNN per week to rise to an equivalent number of cumulative hours per year...
Another very bad channel is National Geographic. They have this small yellow rectangle logo in the corner and it is always displayed in the same place all the time. I think yellow is almost as bad as red for BI. I personally have seen yellow rectangle BI on a demo A1E at Best Buy from their in house demo source switcher.

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post #744 of 1075 Old 07-17-2018, 09:53 AM
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Another very bad channel is National Geographic. They have this small yellow rectangle logo in the corner and it is always displayed in the same place all the time. I think yellow is almost as bad as red for BI. I personally have seen yellow rectangle BI on a demo A1E at Best Buy from their in house demo source switcher.
Yes, yellow is the wirst color for burn-in (followed by orange and then red) of red subpixels.

So hundreds of hours of National Geographic per year should be another use-case that leads to burn-in on a 2016 WOLED...

If you only watch an average of one hour of National Geegraphic per week in a 2016 WOLED eith modest OLED Light setting you should be fine.

And if you own a 2017 WOLED, you can watch an hour per day for more than 9 years straight before your likely to see any National-Geograohic-induced signs of burn-in!
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post #745 of 1075 Old 07-17-2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Yes, yellow is the wirst color for burn-in (followed by orange and then red) of red subpixels.

...

And if you own a 2017 WOLED, you can watch an hour per day for more than 9 years straight before your likely to see any National-Geograohic-induced signs of burn-in!
Regardless of OLED light setting?
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post #746 of 1075 Old 07-17-2018, 02:51 PM
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Regardless of OLED light setting?
Good point.

The 2016 WOLED comment was for modest OLED Light setting (175 cd/m2) while the 2017 WOLED comment was for OLED Light set for 200 cd/m3.

Being more precise, if you have a 2017 WOLED set to 200 cd/m2, you can watch an hour of National Geographic per day for 9.6 years (and counting), while cranking OLED Light near 100 for 380 cd/m2 will reduce the number of years you can watch 365 hours of Nation Geographic per year all the way down to 7.7...
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post #747 of 1075 Old 07-17-2018, 08:49 PM
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OLED and tires

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Originally Posted by no1special View Post

If I drive my new car 50,000 miles in one year and wear out the tires, or if I drive my new car 50,000 miles over 5 years and wear out the tires, the end result is the same - I'll need to buy new tires.
From tires.com: "The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and official manufacturers suggest a tire is only 100% safe to use until it turns 5-6 years old."


Your analogy works even better than you knew. Not too long after that 5 year mark, you need to buy new tires whether or not you drove ANY miles on them.


Every time I sit down to watch my B6, I marvel at how great the picture is. No other TV, no matter how top-of-the-line, has provided me with that experience. I've had the B6 for two years now and at my usage rate I'll probably want a new TV for new technology unrelated to picture quality years before there will be any noticeable degradation of the panel.

As they say, your mileage may vary.
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post #748 of 1075 Old 07-18-2018, 03:29 AM
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Every time I sit down to watch my B6, I marvel at how great the picture is. No other TV, no matter how top-of-the-line, has provided me with that experience. I've had the B6 for two years now and at my usage rate I'll probably want a new TV for new technology unrelated to picture quality years before there will be any noticeable degradation of the panel.
Yep. You know the saying, 'once you go black you'll never go back'. OLED is proof it's true!
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post #749 of 1075 Old 07-19-2018, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Fair enough.

Looking at the severity of the burn-in, I'd eye-ball that it matched week 18 of the 2017 CNN Max burn-in magnitude, possibly week 16,

That means 16 to 18 x 7 x 20 hours = 2240 to 2520 cumulative hours of static logo/element display.

Venus 933 reported the burn in after only 2000 hours of total usage, so something is not adding up.

It's almost like he ended up with a 2016 WOLED rather than a 2017...

Would like to understand more about his C7 burn-in experience but have not seem him post on AVS forcsomev time - is he still active?
I received my 2nd replacement panel on July 14 and it too had the piss stain (had good uniformity though). Does LG recycle other folks return panels I grumble. I received the first replacement panel on May 14 and I know this sounds crazy but it too had permanent image burn from YouTube icons. Mind you, I didn't take any precautions since I knew a another replacement panel was on its way but no matter the settings and content I would think that that would be too short of a time for it to occur.

What I would have considered if the 2nd replacement panel didn't have the yellow stain would be to cast YouTube videos from my iPad which would avoid using the television's GUI but all the emotion has flooded back and I'll likely get the QLED 65Q8FN after I'm able to sell my 65LGC7.

I probably come across as someone who watches nothing but You Tube video all day long but that is not the case.
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post #750 of 1075 Old 07-19-2018, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
What I would have considered if the 2nd replacement panel didn't have the yellow stain would be to cast YouTube videos from my iPad which would avoid using the television's GUI but all the emotion has flooded back and I'll likely get the QLED 65Q8FN after I'm able to sell my 65LGC7.
from a c7 to a q8 (40 zone lcd), what a nasty fall. actually you'd be better off with a sony 930e or 940e if lcd is what you're thinking. they are better looking than a q8. just a suggestion.
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