Rtings OLED Burn-In Tests...Updated - Page 33 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #961 of 999 Old 01-17-2019, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombyx View Post
According to RTINGS :

- EC9300 : 90 nits ( 2-stack /2-color)
- EF9500 and EG9600 : 85% DCI and 135 nits . (3-stack/2-color)
- C6 and C7 : 96% DCI and 130 nits . (3-stack/3-color) .



So , as I said, I've found two spots not over exposed in the magenta slides taken from the "CNN normal" test : Zone 1 is in a non burned area and Zone 2 is in the "Breaking news " banner .




I've converted the RGB value of each zone, for each slide, in order to obtain the Value, Saturation and Hue data , because , if the white sub pixel is used in order to compensate for burn in, then this will be visible in the saturation data of zone 2 .

Well ,that's not the case ...



C6 and C7 are different! Only G6 and Loewe Bild7 from 2016 using 2017 panels. C6 had the 2016 panel, like B6 and E6.



C6
https://dyw7ncnq1en5l.cloudfront.net...97/souspix.jpg
https://www.lesnumeriques.com/tv-tel...2621/test.html


C7
https://dyw7ncnq1en5l.cloudfront.net...x-lg-55c7v.jpg
https://www.lesnumeriques.com/tv-tel...7959/test.html


C8

https://dyw7ncnq1en5l.cloudfront.net.../16751/pix.jpg
https://www.lesnumeriques.com/tv-tel...3533/test.html


2019
https://dyw7ncnq1en5l.cloudfront.net...2019-pixel.jpg
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post #962 of 999 Old 01-17-2019, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
So you're not seeing any white getting mixed in, correct?
Correct .
It was surprising because I really expected to see some signal in the saturation data .

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Do you have any way to interpret the Hue numbers? Are the degrees representative of relative red intensity? Seems as though your data indicates overcompensation from 290 to 300 and then after 5-6 weeks of relative stability, steady degredation from 300 back down to 290 continueing on to 285 (and beyond, probably...).

Fantastic data, but I'm not sure how to interpret 'Hue'
For the hue variation , I think that I have one explanation :



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post #963 of 999 Old 01-17-2019, 09:39 AM
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Well, I'm sorry but I wouldn't trust everything I see on "les numériques " too much . For example, in the C7 test , the author says that 55C7 and 65A1 have the same sub pixel pattern , which is simply wrong , because 65'' and 55'' panels don't have the same sub pixel pattern .
The photo they use in the C7 test is the same as the one you can see in the 65A1 test here :
https://www.lesnumeriques.com/tv-tel...8209/test.html

The real sub pixel structure of the 55C7 can be seen in this photo from Rting :
https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/...xels-large.jpg

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post #964 of 999 Old 01-17-2019, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombyx View Post
Correct .
It was surprising because I really expected to see some signal in the saturation data .



For the hue variation , I think that I have one explanation :



That's a fantastic diagram and confirms my supposition.

Are you able to perform a similar Intensity, Saturation, Hue analysis on the Red slide (in the same two locations, if possible)?
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post #965 of 999 Old 01-17-2019, 04:06 PM
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The good news is that I don't recall reading a single post from an OLED owner that got burn in from watching MLB, and that's even with the more BI prone 2016 models. Still, that does not mean it cannot happen eventually, but there are so many variables at play that no one can really tell you when that might be with your specific content. My advice, be extra careful whenever especially bright/saturated yellow, orange, or red static logos/banners are on screen, as those tend to wear (burn in) the fastest. Lower your OLED Light setting as much as comfortably possible during those times. 162 games per year @ 3 hours per game is 486 hours. Deduct 20% for commercials and you're around 400 hours per year. What did it take Rtings C7 TV displaying the red CNN logo... something like 2500 hours before burn-in became noticeable? Not sure of their OLED light setting. My guess is you're good for at least several years with MLB content and your OLED light setting at 49. No guarantees though. Just going by the current data out there.

Good info, thanks!
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post #966 of 999 Old 01-17-2019, 05:09 PM
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That's a fantastic diagram and confirms my supposition.
Thank you .

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Are you able to perform a similar Intensity, Saturation, Hue analysis on the Red slide (in the same two locations, if possible)?
Unfortunately , there is nothing I can do with the red slides .


I've applied the same methodology to the 2016 OLED burn in test .




I've selected two zones in the magenta slides , one in a non burned area (zone 1) and one in a red burned area (zone 2) . They are at the bottom left part of the screen, in the area of the "100% solid logo, present for 2 hours then absent for 3.5 hours ". I think that this is pretty similar to the "breaking news" banner of the 2017 test, which is not always present on the screen .

Here are the results :



Perhaps, there is a trace of desaturation, but this is not very obvious .
The interesting part is that the behaviour of the red sub pixel is not the same as what we saw in the 2017 OLED burn in test . There is no compensation at all , the red sub pixel begins to age almost immediately.
The behaviour of the non burned area is also different, for the same reason .
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post #967 of 999 Old 01-18-2019, 10:40 AM
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very puzzled buy the varying burn in, warranty answers.

I just got off the phone with LG, called their main customer service number to ask about if burn-in is covered under their warranty.
I've been tv researching for a month now, but hadn't considered them at all since burn in seems to be such an issue (happened to a friend of mine).

The rep on the phone said burn in is covered within the first year, and that LG would consider replacement/repair within the first 2 years. When I asked to get that in writing/email, the rep said she couldn't do that.
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post #968 of 999 Old 01-18-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JoshBaskinRobins View Post
very puzzled buy the varying burn in, warranty answers.

I just got off the phone with LG, called their main customer service number to ask about if burn-in is covered under their warranty.
I've been tv researching for a month now, but hadn't considered them at all since burn in seems to be such an issue (happened to a friend of mine).

The rep on the phone said burn in is covered within the first year, and that LG would consider replacement/repair within the first 2 years. When I asked to get that in writing/email, the rep said she couldn't do that.
Best Buy's Geek Squad warranty is the only warranty I know of that covers Oled burn in. And you would want to make sure they still do as that policy could change at any time.

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post #969 of 999 Old 01-18-2019, 11:17 AM
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Best Buy's Geek Squad warranty is the only warranty I know of that covers Oled burn in. And you would want to make sure they still do as that policy could change at any time.
Yep, that is what I had previously thought.

I called Best Buy just now, and they essentially told me that the $200-$400 dollars that you pay for their warranties is essentially a deductible. So if you buy an LG OLED, and it has burn in after, lets say 18 months, Best Buy will either replace it or repair it, but if they have to replace it, your warranty is effectively fulfilled, and you need to spend another $200-$400 for a new warranty on the replacement set.

Pretty lame
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post #970 of 999 Old 01-18-2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JoshBaskinRobins View Post
very puzzled buy the varying burn in, warranty answers.

I just got off the phone with LG, called their main customer service number to ask about if burn-in is covered under their warranty.
I've been tv researching for a month now, but hadn't considered them at all since burn in seems to be such an issue (happened to a friend of mine).

The rep on the phone said burn in is covered within the first year, and that LG would consider replacement/repair within the first 2 years. When I asked to get that in writing/email, the rep said she couldn't do that.
Hahaha! Of course not!! If it ain't in writing, it didn't happen.


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Originally Posted by JoshBaskinRobins View Post
Yep, that is what I had previously thought.

I called Best Buy just now, and they essentially told me that the $200-$400 dollars that you pay for their warranties is essentially a deductible. So if you buy an LG OLED, and it has burn in after, lets say 18 months, Best Buy will either replace it or repair it, but if they have to replace it, your warranty is effectively fulfilled, and you need to spend another $200-$400 for a new warranty on the replacement set.

Pretty lame
True, but better than nothing. Better than being out $2K+.
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post #971 of 999 Old 01-18-2019, 10:53 PM
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^the good thing is that LG is acknowledging that their is an issue and has responded, cant satisfy everyone at first but if you push hard enough with their CS, you might get a positive outcome.
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post #972 of 999 Old 02-12-2019, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real...d-burn-in-test

Week 50 (01/24/2019): Photos updated..
Week 52 (02/07/2019): Uniformity photos updated..
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post #973 of 999 Old 03-07-2019, 05:48 PM
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Week 76 update of the 2016 Rtings.com burn-in test: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/perm...rn-in-lcd-oled

It's hard not to see the very faint first beginnings of letterbox burn-in on the magenta field.

This is not yet severe enough to be visible on content, but it means 2016 WOLEDs will start to develop letterbox burn-in after 76x7x20x2/5.5 = ~4000 cumulative hours of watching letterbox content.

It's a pity Rtings.com did not include a letterbox burn-in test on their 2017 test, but the improvements LG made (burn-in compensation) should significantly increase this cumulative time-to-letterbox burn-in.

Also, it seems like rtimgs.com screwed up the peak luminance measurements of the WOLED, but it appears that there continues to be no drop in peak luminance after 76x7x20 = ~11,000 hours of cumulative use (@250 cd/m2).

If the first signs of letterbox burn-in are for real, it'll be interesting to track the peak brightness messurements from this point forward, since they are to start dropping...

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post #974 of 999 Old 03-07-2019, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Week 76 update of the 2016 Rtings.com burn-in test: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/perm...rn-in-lcd-oled

It's hard not to see the very faint first beginnings of letterbox burn-in on the magenta field.

This is not yet severe enough to be visible on content, but it means 2016 WOLEDs will start to develop letterbox burn-in after 76x7x20x2/5.5 = ~4000 cumulative hours of watching letterbox content.

It's a pity Rtings.com did not include a letterbox burn-in test on their 2017 test, but the improvements LG made (burn-in compensation) should significantly increase this cumulative time-to-letterbox burn-in.

Also, it seems like rtimgs.com screwed up the peak luminance measurements of the WOLED, but it appears that there continues to be no drop in peak luminance after 76x7x20 = ~11,000 hours of cumulative use (@250 cd/m2).

If the first signs of letterbox burn-in are for real, it'll be interesting to track the peak brightness messurements from this point forward, since they are to start dropping...
Do they measure the peak luminance of different colors when testing? How is it...that peak luminance stays the same... while the center area wears down, to where the black wide screen bars look brighter? Is it possible ABL is not kicking in do to only a portion of the screen being lit? Accelerating the wearing on the center?

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post #975 of 999 Old 03-07-2019, 07:50 PM
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[QUOTE=Kenbar;57711584]Do they measure the peak luminance of different colors when testing? If not how does that work...[b\]that peak luminance stays the same... while the center area wears down, to where the black wide screen bars look brighter.[/b][QUOTE]

Yes, the central area where letterboc content is displayed wears down faster than the letterbox bars (250% faster, to be exact).

It is unknown whether the 2016 WOLEDs integrated any wear compensation or not (some measurements earlier in this thread suggest they may have, though much less than the 2017s).

Someone could perform a measurement to determine how much dimmer the content area on the magenta field is than the letterbox bars, but it's very slight and I wouldn't be surprised if it's only a % or 2.

The 10% Window HDR Peak Brightness measurement shows a drop from ~750 cd/m2 to ~700 cd/m2, or ~6% or so. It's too early too decide if that is the beginning of wear or just noise in the measurement, but we should learn more at the next datapoint...
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post #976 of 999 Old 03-07-2019, 07:53 PM
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[quote=fafrd;57711630][QUOTE=Kenbar;57711584]Do they measure the peak luminance of different colors when testing? If not how does that work...[b\]that peak luminance stays the same... while the center area wears down, to where the black wide screen bars look brighter.[/b]
Quote:

Yes, the central area where letterboc content is displayed wears down faster than the letterbox bars (250% faster, to be exact).

It is unknown whether the 2016 WOLEDs integrated any wear compensation or not (some measurements earlier in this thread suggest they may have, though much less than the 2017s).

Someone could perform a measurement to determine how much dimmer the content area on the magenta field is than the letterbox bars, but it's very slight and I wouldn't be surprised if it's only a % or 2.

The 10% Window HDR Peak Brightness measurement shows a drop from ~750 cd/m2 to ~700 cd/m2, or ~6% or so. It's too early too decide if that is the beginning of wear or just noise in the measurement, but we should learn more at the next datapoint...
I'm wondering if, because only a portion of the screen is lit, the ABL is not kicking in....accelerating the center screen wear as opposed to full screen viewing. Wearing more than expected...quicker than expected. Not many reports of center screen wear (none). I'm thinking that might be because few members run with high Olight levels so wearing is low. But at higher olight levels, where the ABL might kick in...it does not limit. So more heat...and faster wearing than would normally occur with full screen.

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post #977 of 999 Old 03-07-2019, 07:58 PM
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[quote=Kenbar;57711642][quote=fafrd;57711630]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Do they measure the peak luminance of different colors when testing? If not how does that work...[b\]that peak luminance stays the same... while the center area wears down, to where the black wide screen bars look brighter.[/b]

I'm wondering if, because only a portion of the screen is lit, the ABL is not kicking in....accelerating the center screen wear as opposed to full screen viewing.
Calibrated to 200cd/m2 peak, I'd expect ABL to essentially never kick in...

APL is generally a tiny fraction of full-field peak white...
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post #978 of 999 Old 03-08-2019, 10:40 AM
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I'm not making light of people who have experienced burn in, but seriously, who's watching their TV for 15,000+ hours (and what is your occupation and do you need an assistant?).

I've had so many TVs die by lightning strike (3), killed by power surges(3), video board failures(2), BB guns, controllers thrown at screen, drink spills, falling and breaking, etc. The real question I have is what ELSE would kill a TV LOOOONG before the TV gets burn in...way before I ever got to 15,000 hours (21 years of my normal usage-my TV can vote!) I'd be looking to devise a way to kill it so I could get a new one with all the cool technology! I'm looking at my 8 y.o. Panasonic plasma and thinking how dated that 6-inch thick bezel looks...maybe I'll devise an elaborate scheme for its demise this weekend so I too can concern myself with burn in on my new 2019 OLED!!! (I'm thinking maybe plug it into a 240V and then drop it off something tall!)
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post #979 of 999 Old 03-08-2019, 12:52 PM
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In just 2 years, I've hit nearly 5k hours so 15k hours isn't too far away at this breakneck speed. Since the 3D feature was abandoned, I have to take evasive action now.
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In just 2 years, I've hit nearly 5k hours so 15k hours isn't too far away at this breakneck speed. Since the 3D feature was abandoned, I have to take evasive action now.
I watched Gravity on my 65C6 in 3D,last week and it's still awesome! I'm going to keep my LG 65C6 until LG comes out with a special addition of a 88 inch, 8K, 3D TV!
OH!Yes I will mortgage the house.
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I watched Gravity on my 65C6 in 3D,last week and it's still awesome! I'm going to keep my LG 65C6 until LG comes out with a special addition of a 88 inch, 8K, 3D TV!
OH!Yes I will mortgage the house.
I'm sure video_analysis meant he was going to buy some secondary tv to watch to preserve his rare, highly valuable, totally awesome and cherished 3D oled. No one in their right mind would part with a 3D Oled till a better 3D tv comes out. Just not done

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post #982 of 999 Old 05-09-2019, 09:45 AM
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Newest results posted indicates clear sign of the beginnings of letterbox burn-in after 12,000 hours of cumulative letterbox content at 175 cd/m2: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/perm...rn-in-lcd-oled

The 10% Window HDR peak brighness graph also shows the first confirmed signs of minor degredation of ~3-5% and while scales of the 100% Window measurement makes it impossible to read, looks like a similar ~5% degredation may be confirmed there as well.

So the good news is that on a 2016 WOLED, it appears that you can watch over 10,000 hours of letterbox content before a small amount of central aging makes letterbox bars start to have noticeably higher brightness on full fields (at least viewing at 175 cd/m2 peak).

The better news is that the newly-released C9 should handsomely outperform this due to it's larger subpixels (lower current density for equivalent cd/m2 of output) as well as differential-aging compensation technology introduced in 2017).

2016 WOLEDs appear to deliver 10,000-12,000 hours of lifetime at 175cd/m2 before beginning to slowly degrade in peak brightness (let's call it L95 = 10,000+ hours @ 175cd/m2) while due to the larger subpixels on 2019 WOLEDs, they probably deliver L95 close to 15,000 hours at the same output levels).

The 2017 burn-in test is up over 8000 hours cumulative and is not yet showing any signs of brightness degradation from display of random content, even at 380cd/m2 peak (CNN Max).
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post #983 of 999 Old 05-09-2019, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Newest results posted indicates clear sign of the beginnings of letterbox burn-in after 12,000 hours of cumulative letterbox content at 175 cd/m2:

So the good news is that on a 2016 WOLED, it appears that you can watch over 10,000 hours of letterbox content before a small amount of central aging makes letterbox bars start to have noticeably higher brightness on full fields (at least viewing at 175 cd/m2 peak).
It looks to me like burn-in starts at 4,000 - 4,500 hours of letterbox content*. Am i missing something?

*In the One Year Update Three TV test - 20 hours a day 9,000 hours - it is stated that 36% of content is letterbox. At the Rtings Burn-in test page, link you posted, is stated ''Letterbox bars present for 2 hours, then absent for 3.5 hours''.


12,000 hours/ letterbox bars present for 2 hours, then absent for 3.5 hours so out of 5,5 hours of content 2 hours is letterbox (would mean clear signs of letterbox burn-in after 4,000 - 4,500 hours...two letterbox movies a day for three years)?
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post #984 of 999 Old 05-09-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
...

The 10% Window HDR peak brighness graph also shows the first confirmed signs of minor degredation of ~3-5% and while scales of the 100% Window measurement makes it impossible to read, looks like a similar ~5% degredation may be confirmed there as well.

So the good news is that on a 2016 WOLED, it appears that you can watch over 10,000 hours of letterbox content before a small amount of central aging makes letterbox bars start to have noticeably higher brightness on full fields (at least viewing at 175 cd/m2 peak).

The better news is that the newly-released C9 should handsomely outperform this due to it's larger subpixels (lower current density for equivalent cd/m2 of output) as well as differential-aging compensation technology introduced in 2017).

2016 WOLEDs appear to deliver 10,000-12,000 hours of lifetime at 175cd/m2 before beginning to slowly degrade in peak brightness (let's call it L95 = 10,000+ hours @ 175cd/m2) while due to the larger subpixels on 2019 WOLEDs, they probably deliver L95 close to 15,000 hours at the same output levels).

The 2017 burn-in test is up over 8000 hours cumulative and is not yet showing any signs of brightness degradation from display of random content, even at 380cd/m2 peak (CNN Max).
So your telling me in 3 and a half years watching letterbox content, 8 hours a day I may see some issues with burn in... I can live with that.
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post #985 of 999 Old 05-09-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
It looks to me like burn-in starts at 4,000 - 4,500 hours of letterbox content*. Am i missing something?

*In the One Year Update Three TV test - 20 hours a day 9,000 hours - it is stated that 36% of content is letterbox. At the Rtings Burn-in test page, link you posted, is stated ''Letterbox bars present for 2 hours, then absent for 3.5 hours''.


12,000 hours/ letterbox bars present for 2 hours, then absent for 3.5 hours so out of 5,5 hours of content 2 hours is letterbox (would mean clear signs of letterbox burn-in after 4,000 - 4,500 hours...two letterbox movies a day for three years)?
Good catch. I thnk someone else had already pointed that out to me but with rtings only putting out updated measurements every month now, my memory fades more than usual between posts.

LT97 or LT95 of 4000-45000 hours @ 175 cd/m2 is correct (we need a measurement on how much brighter the letterbox bars are to decide which).

Think I'm just going to leave my incorrect post as is and let this exchange set the record straight (though if others feel correcting my earlier post would be worth the effort, ease send me a PM and I will do so).

The 2016s are now old news and are what they are.

The 2017s added compensation that hides the first 20-25% of burn-in, so LT97 or [email protected]/m2 should be 4-5 times longer (16,000-22.500 hours to an equivalent level of letterbox burn-in).

And depending on whether brighter letterbox bars begin to become visible on content at 3% (LT97) or 5% (LT95), 4000-4500 hours on 2016 WOLEDs should translate to 4-8 times than number of hours on a 2017 WOLED (so let's say 15,000-30,000 hours).

The other goid news is that the larger sunpixels of the 2019 WOLEDs should deliver ~200% time-to burn-in on red due to larger red subpixel and this means 8000-9000 hours compared to letterbox burn-in on 2016 WOLED without accounting for compensation and 30,000-60,000 hours compared to letterbox burn-in on 2017 WOLEDs (which we have not seen yet).
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post #986 of 999 Old 06-10-2019, 12:23 PM
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The latest rtings.com 2017 burn-in test update indicates that 9500 cumulative hours of viewing NBC (the closest rtings could find to random/varied content) @ 200 Nits will start to result in a ghost image in the center of the screen on a magenta field (below).

That central ghost image on magenta is more visible than it is on red (where is has just begun to apoear) and is not yet visible on blue.

Since magenta is more visible than red and yellow is unnaffected, it's almost certain that there is some underlying burn-in of blue, even if we can't see it yet, so it'll be interesting to see how the blue field progresses going forward.

But the bottom line is that 10,000 hours @ 200cd/m2 is about the maximum you can expect a 2017 WOLED to remain burn-in free, even if you watch varied content.

LG has increased subpixel sizes since 2017 and has more efficient blue emitters on the way by 2021/2022, but I think we've know seen enough to be pretty certain that at 200cd/m2, 10,000 hours of burn-in free performance (with varied content) is the minimum a new WOLED will deliver and doubling that over the coming years (so 20,000 hours) is about the most this technology will ever be able to deliver.

In my case, we watch varied content and at lower brightness levels than 200 cd/m2, but after 2-1/2 years, we'reonly up to 2250 hours on our 65C6P, so 10,000 hours translates to more than 10 years and I will be moving to a newer (and hopefully larger) WOLED well before then...
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post #987 of 999 Old 07-16-2019, 12:11 PM
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Do the 77 C9 have the larger subpixels or is it only the 55 and 65?

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post #988 of 999 Old 08-26-2019, 06:50 AM
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Real World usage burn-in check by Vincent at 3600 hours with some useful tips, if you watch the whole thing:
(no burn in, E8)
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post #989 of 999 Old 08-26-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cathodeRay View Post
Real World usage burn-in check by Vincent at 3600 hours with some useful tips, if you watch the whole thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlP2kwNqXNA
(no burn in, E8)
and yet no News channels , so that not truly real world...
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post #990 of 999 Old 08-26-2019, 06:14 PM
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and yet no News channels , so that not truly real world...

Did you not watch the video...?

There were news channels.

Not CNN, MSNBC, etc. though if that is what you mean.

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