LG b7/c7 or Sony X930E? My concerns - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 03:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Question LG b7/c7 or Sony X930E? My concerns

I talked to someone at the store who explained, if I understood it right, that the Sony may be brighter in dark rooms, but in lit rooms (or do I have that backwards?) the oleds look brighter because of the way it’s lit so it will serm brighter, at least it did in the store. From what I’ve read the LG is better for picture.

So from everything I’ve been reading from searching around, and correct me if I’m wrong, but some people had burn in issues with the previous models (b6?). From what I’ve read, it’s hard to tell if LG has improved on it, but it seems like very few people have had burn in with the b7/c7. (Talking burn in, not image retention)

Two things I’m concerned with. The first is that from what I’m understanding, the pixels will lose their brightness over time as they age and you want them to do that evenly. So what I’m wondering is people aren’t having issues now, but could burn in become an issue down the road like 2-3 years from now? No one has had it long enough to tell. I’m wondering if it’s worth the risk.

Secondly, if the pixels will lose brightness over time, will the Sony end up just as bright, and also someone said to combat burn in you shouldn’t run it full brightness, but that pretty much defeats the point of going with the oled instead of the Sony.

I was hoping for opinions. I know most people likely won’t have issues unless they use it for gaming all the time, etc., but you get those few reviews that have had it happen. I’m not sure if that’s too expensive a risk to take.

Also if you do get some burn in, is it super noticeable under normal viewing?

I’ll be using it primarily for tv, some movies, some games, also streaming Netflix, etc. My Grandmother does watch a lot of GSN which has the 4:3 bars but she is willing to stretch to fit. However, I do tend to watch the same networks a lot.
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post #2 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 06:48 AM
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When it comes to looking for a new tv, "May the force be with you!!!" I researched tv's for what seems like months. I started out thinking I wanted a Samsung because that is what I have had for the last 11 years but then decided after research that the Qled was not the way to go.

So then I noticed everyone talking about the LG Oled's and how black the blacks were and how they all loved the picture of it. I had then decided that I would get me a 65" C7. And even though the blacks did look a little better than the LCD's, the LG Oled is not as bright as the Sony. That was the one main complaint on the LG Oled picture quality. The Sony X930E has around 1470 nits vs. the Oled's 700. That's a lot of difference in brightness between the two tv's. THEN I started reading where LOTS of reviewers were complaining about all the other problems with the LG Oled's such as color banding, image retention, permanent image burn in and bent screens. A lot people were saying you had to be very careful about leaving static images on the screen too long because that is what causes the image retention and burn in. I decided I did not want a tv that I had to be worried everytime I watched something whether there was a static image on it such as how some channels will leave their logo in the bottom corner or news channels that have those bars across the bottom all the time. And then there was the problem where a lot of reviewers mentioned the poor customer service from LG concerning these problems with the image retention and burn in. They mentioned how LG wants to connect to where they can see the screen of your tv only to tell you that either the problem is not that bad or you cause the problem and thus there is nothing that they can do. Your are then stuck with a very expensive tv with an image burned into it. I know some LG owners will tell you that it is not that big of a problem but I read too many reviews to last me a lifetime about the problem.

With all that said and out of my system now (thanks for the therapy session), after all the reviews I read and youtube video's I watched I am proud to say I am the owner of a 65" Sony X930E and couldn't be happier. I seriously considered buying the Sony 65" Z9D but decided I did not want to spend that much money on a tv.

Hope some of this helps you because I was once in your shoes and know how it feels to want to buy the best tv you can with your hard earned money.
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post #3 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.

The other thing I forgot to add, is that the OLED that seemed so much brighter (showed a star field whites of stars were so much brighter) than the Sony 830E, was the more expensive Sony OLED, because that was side by side. I questioned if this one looked so bright because it was a Sony and also much more expensive (they didn’t have this video obviously to she on the LGs either), but he said LG makes Sony’s OLED panels. That’s well and good, but it still has Sony’s bright tech and costs more. If you could compare the same video on the LG, wouldn’t it not have been as bright as the Sony OLED?
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post #4 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 09:01 AM
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For what it's worth, I own a 65" C7. It looks lovely 95% of the time I'm watching it. It's easily the best looking display I've owned, most of the time. That said, if I were to do it all over again, knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd pick the OLED again. I'd likely take the lesser blacks, and other pitfalls of LED over the screen uniformity issues (visible banding in content) and the looming "threat" of burn in potential. Dollar for dollar, of course.
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post #5 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scifivision View Post
Thanks.

The other thing I forgot to add, is that the OLED that seemed so much brighter (showed a star field whites of stars were so much brighter) than the Sony 830E, was the more expensive Sony OLED, because that was side by side. I questioned if this one looked so bright because it was a Sony and also much more expensive (they didn’t have this video obviously to she on the LGs either), but he said LG makes Sony’s OLED panels. That’s well and good, but it still has Sony’s bright tech and costs more. If you could compare the same video on the LG, wouldn’t it not have been as bright as the Sony OLED?
Was it same backlight setting?
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post #6 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 09:43 AM
 
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The LG oled generally looks brighter than the sony oled. You may have not been watching the same content or the settings on the lg oled you saw were set much lower than the sony.

Now that aside, the reservations about owning either of the oleds is justified, i myself havent bought it yet, im going through majority of user opinions from owners both in the oled and lcd sections and trying to make up the mind. i have seen these tv's in person already.

For my usage, i'm thinking right now that oled may not end up the best choice. im waiting for information on sony's successor model to their flagship lcd z9d next year, when that launches the z9d would also go down in price, so would have both options. im not interested in the 930e primarily because it's edge lit and not fald. 940e is fald but only has a 75" version.
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post #7 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cyphron View Post
Was it same backlight setting?
Im not sure how to find that out? All I know is he said LG makes Sony’s OLEDs
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post #8 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 10:41 AM
 
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he meant oled light and brightness settings in the tv. oled does not contain a backlight. lg oleds look brighter than sony oled so you should have asked the store guy about the settings. lg supplies the panels for sony oleds, does not make their tv's.
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post #9 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 02:28 PM
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Since your post is mostly about concerns with OLED burn-in, you should probably take your questions to this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...ad-photos.html

I think most of your concerns have already been addressed in that thread and other OLED burn-in threads. But to quickly address some of your questions...

1. The OLED should be better in dark/dim rooms due to the absolute blacks and better contrast. This benefit becomes less noticeable in bright rooms.

2. I've read virtually all the posts of those reporting BI. It's not just the B6 that was affected. The 2017s haven't been on the market as long as the 2016s, so it may just be too soon before the reports come in. The 2016s were on the market for about a year before the first reports of BI with them on AVS.

3. Yes, BI can become an issue years down the road. It typically takes hundreds of total hours viewing time of the same channel or game before noticeable BI can develop. You may not hit that threshold in the first year, for example. Lowering OLED light setting should extend the viewing time needed before BI develops.

4. Not sure about the Sony, but you don't need to run OLED Light very high to enjoy the picture, especially in a dark/dim room. In a brightly lit room, OLEDs black levels won't appear much better than a good LCD LED. In bright rooms, the PQ difference between OLED and a good LED LCD is much less noticeable.

5. OLED BI (not IR) can be not noticeable, barely noticeable, or very noticeable while watching content. It depends how severe the BI got, and also depends on what background colors from content are being displayed in the area of the BI. More noticeable against red, orange, yellow, tan, brown and magenta colors. Less or not noticeable against blue, white, and sometimes green colors. I'd estimate our BI is visible about 30% of the time with various content.

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post #10 of 30 Old 11-22-2017, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scifivision View Post
I talked to someone at the store who explained, if I understood it right, that the Sony may be brighter in dark rooms, but in lit rooms (or do I have that backwards?) the oleds look brighter because of the way it’s lit so it will seem brighter, at least it did in the store.
First, I'd advise against trying to decide which TV is better by making comparisons in a store. You have no idea how the TVs have been adjusted there -- it's even possible that some TVs have been adjusted to perform better than others because the store wants to sell more of a particular model.

Second, I think the person you spoke with at the store was actually talking about CONTRAST under different room lighting conditions, not brightness. The OLED has higher contrast than the Sony, but the OLED can't get as bright as the Sony.

In practical terms, this means that when viewed in a dark room the OLED will be able to display true blacks, while the Sony's deepest black will be a very dark gray. So if you will be watching your TV primarily in a dark room, you may want to take advantage of the superior black levels of the OLED.

On the other hand, if you will be watching your TV primarily in a well-lit room, you may actually prefer the Sony. In a well-lit room, you will not be able to notice the difference in absolute black levels between the OLED and the Sony, but you will be able to tell that the OLED is dimmer overall, and the Sony is brighter. The higher brightness of the Sony allows it to perform better in a well-lit room.

Finally, it sounds like you have serious concerns about burn-in, and it probably means that you should avoid the OLED, in order to alleviate your worries about this over the long run. This may be especially true if there are other people in your household who will be watching the TV steadily. After my sister invested in a plasma TV I warned her about pausing the video image when using her DVR and Blu-ray player, but old habits die hard, and she would routinely do it anyway. Sure enough, this practice resulted in burn-in.

The Sony X930E is an excellent TV and I am convinced that you will be very pleased with it.

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post #11 of 30 Old 11-23-2017, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I had actually decided I was probably going to go with the LG but then I thought of something. When I watch screeners for review, they often have my name watermarked (though it is translucent). I can see changing to something else in between each one, but I could potentially be viewing it for up to an hour without commercials, so maybe that’s not good.

ETA what about caption bars?

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post #12 of 30 Old 12-04-2017, 07:13 AM
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To be honest, it strikes me that you already have such strong concerns about the potential for burn-in on an OLED screen that if you decide to buy one, you will never be able to relax while using it (especially if there are others in your household who may not be as careful in their viewing habits). A high-quality TV is meant to be a pleasure to use, rather than a constant source of worry. The Sony X930E is an excellent model that will alleviate all of your anxiety about burn-in, and for that reason I believe it is a better choice for your specific needs. In some ways the Sony actually performs better than the LG, and they are so close in overall quality that you won't be making a mistake by buying the Sony. I suggest purchasing the Sony from a retailer like Costco with a no-hassle return policy, and if you ultimately decide that you're not completely satisfied with its display characteristics, you can easily take it back into the store, and trade it for the LG.
The burn-in concerns(just like plasma way back hen) are pretty overblown around here but thats the way of things. Not even going to bother with that anymore.

As for the 930E being basically on the same level of PQ as an OLED? Ehhhh. Not so sure about that. Perhaps in certain room conditions you could give the nod to the LCD or call them even but for whatever reason some people think that OLEDs cant look good in bright rooms(probably leftover info from the plasma days) but thats not true at all. Like every TV, its wise to use different settings for different environments. Its as simple as running the TV using a mode thats brighter overall with a higher OLED light setting. Wallah. Problem solved. We watch sports during the day(hocky, football, hoops) with open windows and I assure you it looks amazing like pretty much everything else.

Turn the lights down though and pop in a movie and Im sorry but an edge-lit LCD will get murdered by an OLED in PQ. There is no way they are comparable in this usually very important use case. Sure, if you dont watch much stuff in the dark it probably doesnt matter as much but I think its a looooong reach to claim the 930E is very "close" to an OLED in overall PQ. Just my opinion. Not saying the 930E isnt a good set.
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post #13 of 30 Old 12-04-2017, 11:54 AM
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purchasing the Sony from a retailer like Costco with a no-hassle return policy, and if you ultimately decide that you're not completely satisfied with its display characteristics, you can easily take it back into the store, and trade it for the LG.
Easy to understand what you are saying about no-hassle return. FYI, Costco hasn't sold Sony displays in at least 3 years. Even when they did it tended to be lines comparable to the 800 series or lower.

With the lights on the 930e is no match for the OLED I rarely watch in a dark environment, since June I continue to be amazed at the picture my B7 puts out. The latest firmware update took the 2017 LGs to a higher level with improvements in picture (Technicolor) and motion.

Like the plasmas I owned prior to the OLED, burn-in is way over blown on this forum. Same folks posting about it 100s (literally) of times. I've got two good LEDs from Sony and Samsung in the house, no comparison especially for a quality source or HDR/DV.

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post #14 of 30 Old 12-05-2017, 11:19 PM
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Easy to understand what you are saying about no-hassle return. FYI, Costco hasn't sold Sony displays in at least 3 years. Even when they did it tended to be lines comparable to the 800 series or lower.

With the lights on the 930e is no match for the OLED I rarely watch in a dark environment, since June I continue to be amazed at the picture my B7 puts out. The latest firmware update took the 2017 LGs to a higher level with improvements in picture (Technicolor) and motion.

Like the plasmas I owned prior to the OLED, burn-in is way over blown on this forum. Same folks posting about it 100s (literally) of times. I've got two good LEDs from Sony and Samsung in the house, no comparison especially for a quality source or HDR/DV.
I don't see how the number of posts about a specific topic or the number of threads about it, has anything to do with how prevalent (overblown) OLED burn-in is or isn't. The facts are, we have 2 separate AVS polls asking people if they've experienced burn-in on their OLEDs. One poll is at about 10% and an older poll is at about 15%. That's the best data we have on OLED BI prevalence. Basing one's opinion on OLED prevalence based on number of posts or threads is foolish.

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post #15 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 03:23 AM
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I don't see how the number of posts about a specific topic or the number of threads about it, has anything to do with how prevalent (overblown) OLED burn-in is or isn't. The facts are, we have 2 separate AVS polls asking people if they've experienced burn-in on their OLEDs. One poll is at about 10% and an older poll is at about 15%. That's the best data we have on OLED BI prevalence. Basing one's opinion on OLED prevalence based on number of posts or threads is foolish.
So if we average out the 10% and 15% reports then we arrive at 12.5%. The big catch here is that this "data" ONLY represents those here at AVS and those that responded to the poll. To get actual data, we’d need to assess how many OLED sets were sold in the entire world and get burn in reports from the entire population of OLED owners before you can slap a percentage on it that would be anywhere near factual. It’s like a political poll of sorts. It’s an extremely small sample of actual owners across the globe. Just pointing this out. Maybe it IS 15% or even 20%. Doubt it, but that’d have to be proven with actual data from the entire population.

It’s like me asking 10 random people who their favorite NFL team is. If 6 reply The Patriots that doesn’t mean that 60% of the entire NFL fanbase likes the Pats. I didn’t ask the other 300 million people in the country. I think you get the idea here.

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post #16 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by scifivision View Post
I talked to someone at the store who explained, if I understood it right, that the Sony may be brighter in dark rooms, but in lit rooms (or do I have that backwards?) the oleds look brighter because of the way it’s lit so it will serm brighter, at least it did in the store. From what I’ve read the LG is better for picture.

So from everything I’ve been reading from searching around, and correct me if I’m wrong, but some people had burn in issues with the previous models (b6?). From what I’ve read, it’s hard to tell if LG has improved on it, but it seems like very few people have had burn in with the b7/c7. (Talking burn in, not image retention)

Two things I’m concerned with. The first is that from what I’m understanding, the pixels will lose their brightness over time as they age and you want them to do that evenly. So what I’m wondering is people aren’t having issues now, but could burn in become an issue down the road like 2-3 years from now? No one has had it long enough to tell. I’m wondering if it’s worth the risk.

Secondly, if the pixels will lose brightness over time, will the Sony end up just as bright, and also someone said to combat burn in you shouldn’t run it full brightness, but that pretty much defeats the point of going with the oled instead of the Sony.

I was hoping for opinions. I know most people likely won’t have issues unless they use it for gaming all the time, etc., but you get those few reviews that have had it happen. I’m not sure if that’s too expensive a risk to take.

Also if you do get some burn in, is it super noticeable under normal viewing?

I’ll be using it primarily for tv, some movies, some games, also streaming Netflix, etc. My Grandmother does watch a lot of GSN which has the 4:3 bars but she is willing to stretch to fit. However, I do tend to watch the same networks a lot.
I debated the very same thing for what seemed like an eternity. Wound up going with the 65 C7. The biggest issue I have with any Sony is Android OS , which i think has NO business being on a TV. I experienced crashing while watching various types of content (even cable) and it was that much of a hindrance to me (who admittedly has no tolerance for that kind of thing). For example, if you hit a setting while watching amazon HDR it cuts out the audio and stutters (this was while on 100+ ethernet connection, and is known to be an issue due to the weaker chipset the TV is using to run android) The OS is generally laggy, and things have to be disabled or turned to a minimum in order to avoid this. I simply do want to have to go through that nonsense to use my TV. That being said, the 930e produces a nice picture and displays hdr really, really well. Motion is fantastic, and long term reliability isn't a concern with LED, generally.

As for the LG, it supports all HDMI ports at full bandwidth (only 2 for the Sony's), dolby vision and youtube HDR right now (things the sony doesn't at the moment). The OS is a breeze and enjoyable to use. I wouldn't get too caught up in nits. Sometimes reading reviews drive you crazy. The OLED is plenty bright enough. The sony is brighter for sure, but it also doesn't do black as well, and does not have the contrast the oled does. The picture on the OLED is outright remarkable, and by far the best i have ever seen. The contrast is the biggest factor in picture quality IMO

As for the LG OLED, is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is image retention a potential concern. Yes? But in no way has that stopped me from enjoying it (if burn in is that much of a concern to you as it is me, I'd recommend buying a warranty that covers it ie: best buy) It is simply the best set i have ever owned. Having owned both a Sony and LG OLED there is simply no way I can recommend the 930e over the OLED. Matter of fact I wouldn't recommend any TV over it, and that includes the Z9D.

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post #17 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 08:28 AM
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If longevity is your biggest concern the Sony would be the safer play. Another safe play would be to get the Oled for movies and another cheap tv for general viewing. Another way to hedge your bet would be to purchase the Geek Squad 4 year warranty. Another way to play safe-ish would be to run the Oled light and color levels low for general viewing...but higher for movies. But as many have pointed out, that somewhat defeats the purpose.

Personally, to me, the Sony does not lag that far behind the Oleds in picture quality...and there is a lot to be said for care free viewing.

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post #18 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 10:23 AM
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So if we average out the 10% and 15% reports then we arrive at 12.5%. The big catch here is that this "data" ONLY represents those here at AVS and those that responded to the poll. To get actual data, we’d need to assess how many OLED sets were sold in the entire world and get burn in reports from the entire population of OLED owners before you can slap a percentage on it that would be anywhere near factual. It’s like a political poll of sorts. It’s an extremely small sample of actual owners across the globe. Just pointing this out. Maybe it IS 15% or even 20%. Doubt it, but that’d have to be proven with actual data from the entire population.

It’s like me asking 10 random people who their favorite NFL team is. If 6 reply The Patriots that doesn’t mean that 60% of the entire NFL fanbase likes the Pats. I didn’t ask the other 300 million people in the country. I think you get the idea here.
I get what you are trying to say but that is not polling works. As long as the sample size is big enough and representative enough for the population, then the polling should be accurate enough. 10 people is not a big enough sample. If you asked 10000 people across the US if they like the Pats, it should closely represent the whole US. You don't need to ask the whole population.
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post #19 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dre180 View Post
I debated the very same thing for what seemed like an eternity. Wound up going with the 65 C7. The biggest issue I have with any Sony is Android OS , which i think has NO business being on a TV. I experienced crashing while watching various types of content (even cable) and it was that much of a hindrance to me (who admittedly has no tolerance for that kind of thing). For example, if you hit a setting while watching amazon HDR it cuts out the audio and stutters (this was while on 100+ ethernet connection, and is known to be an issue due to the weaker chipset the TV is using to run android) The OS is generally laggy, and things have to be disabled or turned to a minimum in order to avoid this. I simply do want to have to go through that nonsense to use my TV. That being said, the 930e produces a nice picture and displays hdr really, really well. Motion is fantastic, and long term reliability isn't a concern with LED, generally.

As for the LG, it supports all HDMI ports at full bandwidth (only 2 for the Sony's), dolby vision and youtube HDR right now (things the sony doesn't at the moment). The OS is a breeze and enjoyable to use. I wouldn't get too caught up in nits. Sometimes reading reviews drive you crazy. The OLED is plenty bright enough. The sony is brighter for sure, but it also doesn't do black as well, and does not have the contrast the oled does. The picture on the OLED is outright remarkable, and by far the best i have ever seen. The contrast is the biggest factor in picture quality IMO

As for the LG OLED, is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is image retention a potential concern. Yes? But in no way has that stopped me from enjoying it (if burn in is that much of a concern to you as it is me, I'd recommend buying a warranty that covers it ie: best buy) It is simply the best set i have ever owned. Having owned both a Sony and LG OLED there is simply no way I can recommend the 930e over the OLED. Matter of fact I wouldn't recommend any TV over it, and that includes the Z9D.
Very reasonable reply here. Well Played
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post #20 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 11:09 AM
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I get what you are trying to say but that is not polling works. As long as the sample size is big enough and representative enough for the population, then the polling should be accurate enough. 10 people is not a big enough sample. If you asked 10000 people across the US if they like the Pats, it should closely represent the whole US. You don't need to ask the whole population.
Well - 10,000 people across the USA is STILL quite a small % of the overall population and wouldnt yield valid results either. Also, the question isnt whether they like that Pats, its whats their favorite team. There are 32 possible answers, its not a yes/no. You'd have to ask tens of millions of people to get a real feel for what team had the highest % of fans.

For this OLED burn-in thing to be truly 100%(or close to it) data-based and factual you'd need to:

1) Determine the entire number of OLED TV owners. Or at least account for say 80% of all of them
2) Assess who got burn-in from what are considered normal use cases
3) Assess and then throw out however many got burn-in from abusing the TV or being idiots. This includes not leting the TV run comp cycles, falling asleep at menu screens every night, watching CNN alll day in vivid mode, etc, etc.
4) Assess and throw out cases that are simply IR that hasnt cleared up yet
5) Probably other stuff too

Then, once that data was compiled and gone over.... you could truthfully state that XXXX % of OLED owners got burn-in and therefore could conclude that your chances of getting burn-in with normal use are XXXX% likely. Something like that. Anything short of that and Im sorry but there are simply way too many variables and a lack of real details. Remember, a guy that voted yes to getting burn in after abusing the TV does NOT count IMO. But it skews the data.

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post #21 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 01:57 PM
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^^^ Just imaging how the LG R&D, Technical Support, and Legal departments are trying to assess this, while Sony and Panasonic are just sitting quietly in the background thinking WTF is really happening.
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post #22 of 30 Old 12-06-2017, 11:59 PM
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So if we average out the 10% and 15% reports then we arrive at 12.5%. The big catch here is that this "data" ONLY represents those here at AVS and those that responded to the poll. To get actual data, we’d need to assess how many OLED sets were sold in the entire world and get burn in reports from the entire population of OLED owners before you can slap a percentage on it that would be anywhere near factual. It’s like a political poll of sorts. It’s an extremely small sample of actual owners across the globe. Just pointing this out. Maybe it IS 15% or even 20%. Doubt it, but that’d have to be proven with actual data from the entire population.

It’s like me asking 10 random people who their favorite NFL team is. If 6 reply The Patriots that doesn’t mean that 60% of the entire NFL fanbase likes the Pats. I didn’t ask the other 300 million people in the country. I think you get the idea here.
First of all, you can't just take the 10% of one poll and 15% results of another poll, and say that the average is 12.5%. It doesn't work that way, with any polls. On top of that, the 2 AVS burn-in polls are structured very differently. For example, the older one requires one to have at least 700 hours on their set before voting (enough time to allow for any BI to develop), whereas the newer poll has no such restriction and allows those with brand new sets to vote.

Secondly, as long as you have a large enough, statistically significant sample size, you don't need to poll every single OLED owner, in order to get a very close to accurate results. Still, you personally seem to have a problem accepting people's BI experiences (just the ones that got it) as truthful anyway, so regardless of the sample size, you won't accept the results because "people lie or exaggerate." Once your mind is already made up, no amount of facts or data, no matter how comprehensive or accurate, will change that.
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post #23 of 30 Old 12-07-2017, 03:26 AM
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^^^ Just imaging how the LG R&D, Technical Support, and Legal departments are trying to assess this, while Sony and Panasonic are just sitting quietly in the background thinking WTF is really happening.
Yeah, good luck. LG should call Panasonic and Pioneer and ask them how this all went with plasma TVs and the seemingly random, hard to quantify cases of burn in. I dunno. Getting tired of it though, that’s for sure.

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First of all, you can't just take the 10% of one poll and 15% results of another poll, and say that the average is 12.5%. It doesn't work that way, with any polls. On top of that, the 2 AVS burn-in polls are structured very differently. For example, the older one requires one to have at least 700 hours on their set before voting (enough time to allow for any BI to develop), whereas the newer poll has no such restriction and allows those with brand new sets to vote.

Secondly, as long as you have a large enough, statistically significant sample size, you don't need to poll every single OLED owner, in order to get a very close to accurate results. Still, you personally seem to have a problem accepting people's BI experiences (just the ones that got it) as truthful anyway, so regardless of the sample size, you won't accept the results because "people lie or exaggerate." Once your mind is already made up, no amount of facts or data, no matter how comprehensive or accurate, will change that.
So what is a statistically significant sample size? Do you have that number? Is it 50% of total owners? 75%? As I said, you’d have to know how many were sold total. Then you’d have to look into each case individually or it’s just hearsay. You may not like this but that’s how facts and actual data works and is deemed legit. Comprehensive and accurate? Yep, show me undeniable proof and I’ll happily buy into all of this as statistically "sound". Until then? A small poll here at AVS just doesn’t cut it. Nothing to do with making up my mind. It’s called tangible evidence.

And no, sorry, I don’t believe everything people say about product use when it comes to TVs or any other product. Because, you know, everyone is always honest about everything in this world. That’s how humans are. Cmon, man.

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post #24 of 30 Old 12-08-2017, 12:01 AM
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Yeah, good luck. LG should call Panasonic and Pioneer and ask them how this all went with plasma TVs and the seemingly random, hard to quantify cases of burn in. I dunno. Getting tired of it though, that’s for sure.



So what is a statistically significant sample size? Do you have that number? Is it 50% of total owners? 75%? As I said, you’d have to know how many were sold total. Then you’d have to look into each case individually or it’s just hearsay. You may not like this but that’s how facts and actual data works and is deemed legit. Comprehensive and accurate? Yep, show me undeniable proof and I’ll happily buy into all of this as statistically "sound". Until then? A small poll here at AVS just doesn’t cut it. Nothing to do with making up my mind. It’s called tangible evidence.

And no, sorry, I don’t believe everything people say about product use when it comes to TVs or any other product. Because, you know, everyone is always honest about everything in this world. That’s how humans are. Cmon, man.
For someone who's constantly saying they're tired of this, you sure reply a lot about it.

I'm no expert in statistical analysis, and apparently you know even less about it since you were just claiming that you need to poll the entire population to get accurate numbers.

You only ever question the validity of the reports of BI, but you never question the validity of those reporting no burn-in. Why? We don't have "undeniable proof" or "tangible evidence" from those reporting no burn-in either, but you never once suggested their reporting could be suspect. What's your motivation behind constantly sowing doubt on the BI reports ONLY? You never did answer my post here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post55266798

Just curious. What would qualify as "undeniable proof" or "tangible evidence" in your world? Yeah, I'm sure you've made every purchasing (and other) decisions in your life with only undeniable, proven facts in hand. Cmon, man! The fact is, we rarely have all the facts, but we're still forced to make decisions based on incomplete, or potentially suspect, information. We're not dismissive of potentially valuable (or as you prefer to call it, suspect) information. We take it all into account and make our decision.

You know, for someone so hell-bent on "undeniable proof" and "tangible evidence," you sure don't wait for undeniable proof that people are lying or exaggerating their reports of burn-in. You just jump right into suggesting that they must be.

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post #25 of 30 Old 12-08-2017, 03:20 AM
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For someone who's constantly saying they're tired of this, you sure reply a lot about it.

I'm no expert in statistical analysis, and apparently you know even less about it since you were just claiming that you need to poll the entire population to get accurate numbers.

You only ever question the validity of the reports of BI, but you never question the validity of those reporting no burn-in. Why? We don't have "undeniable proof" or "tangible evidence" from those reporting no burn-in either, but you never once suggested their reporting could be suspect. What's your motivation behind constantly sowing doubt on the BI reports ONLY? You never did answer my post here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post55266798

Just curious. What would qualify as "undeniable proof" or "tangible evidence" in your world? Yeah, I'm sure you've made every purchasing (and other) decisions in your life with only undeniable, proven facts in hand. Cmon, man! The fact is, we rarely have all the facts, but we're still forced to make decisions based on incomplete, or potentially suspect, information. We're not dismissive of potentially valuable (or as you prefer to call it, suspect) information. We take it all into account and make our decision.

You know, for someone so hell-bent on "undeniable proof" and "tangible evidence," you sure don't wait for undeniable proof that people are lying or exaggerating their reports of burn-in. You just jump right into suggesting that they must be.
See my other reply in the other post. Just like HAL told Dave Bowman in 2001: "this conversation can serve no purpose". You keep posting what you want and I’ll do th same. Let’s stop quoting each other though. I’m not going to argue statistics with you or anything else. If someone here decides to not buy an OLED due to FUD they read here then that’s THIER loss, not mine. Right? Neither you or I benefit or are harmed by ones TV choice. Take care.
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First of all, you can't just take the 10% of one poll and 15% results of another poll, and say that the average is 12.5%. It doesn't work that way, with any polls. On top of that, the 2 AVS burn-in polls are structured very differently. For example, the older one requires one to have at least 700 hours on their set before voting (enough time to allow for any BI to develop), whereas the newer poll has no such restriction and allows those with brand new sets to vote.

Secondly, as long as you have a large enough, statistically significant sample size, you don't need to poll every single OLED owner, in order to get a very close to accurate results. Still, you personally seem to have a problem accepting people's BI experiences (just the ones that got it) as truthful anyway, so regardless of the sample size, you won't accept the results because "people lie or exaggerate." Once your mind is already made up, no amount of facts or data, no matter how comprehensive or accurate, will change that.

Absolutely correct analysis.

You can't change the minds of uniformed or those with an inherent bias. Just look at how many people bought into Trump's conspiracy theory that Barack Obama was born in Kenya (even after his Hawaii birth certificate was produced) Could well be the same conspiracy theorists that are casting shade on the numerous reports that burn-in, at least in the case of 2016 LG panels, can develop under certain specific, but moderate, viewing conditions. Just more "fake news" in their world

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Yeah, good luck. LG should call Panasonic and Pioneer and ask them how this all went with plasma TVs and the seemingly random, hard to quantify cases of burn in. I dunno. Getting tired of it though, that’s for sure.



So what is a statistically significant sample size? Do you have that number? Is it 50% of total owners? 75%? As I said, you’d have to know how many were sold total. Then you’d have to look into each case individually or it’s just hearsay. You may not like this but that’s how facts and actual data works and is deemed legit. Comprehensive and accurate? Yep, show me undeniable proof and I’ll happily buy into all of this as statistically "sound". Until then? A small poll here at AVS just doesn’t cut it. Nothing to do with making up my mind. It’s called tangible evidence.

And no, sorry, I don’t believe everything people say about product use when it comes to TVs or any other product. Because, you know, everyone is always honest about everything in this world. That’s how humans are. Cmon, man.

At the risk of over-simplification, this is how it actually works:

From Wikipedia's definition of error bar:

"Error bars are graphical representations of the variability of data and used on graphs to indicate the error or uncertainty in a reported measurement. They give a general idea of how precise a measurement is, or conversely, how far from the reported value the true (error free) value might be. Error bars often represent one standard deviation of uncertainty, one standard error, or a particular confidence interval (e.g., a 95% interval). These quantities are not the same and so the measure selected should be stated explicitly in the graph or supporting text.

Error bars can be used to compare visually two quantities if various other conditions hold. This can determine whether differences are statistically significant. Error bars can also suggest goodness of fit of a given function, i.e., how well the function describes the data. Scientific papers in the experimental sciences are expected to include error bars on all graphs, though the practice differs somewhat between sciences, and each journal will have its own house style. It has also been shown that error bars can be used as a direct manipulation interface for controlling probabilistic algorithms for approximate computation.[1] Error bars can also be expressed in a plus-minus sign (±), plus the upper limit of the error and minus the lower limit of the error.[2]"

This is why most polls, for example political polls, include "margins of error" along with the median values derived from the poll.

Given the uncertainty in the quality of the data in these AVS polls, the statistical certainty of a given percentage of LG OLED "burn in" defects can not be calculated from this data. However, this is not the same as stating cases do not exist, as they clearly do. Additionally, if the frequency of 'burn in" cases developing under a specific set of conditions was extremely low, it would be highly unusual (in a statistical sense) for the Rtings.com to have been unlucky enough to have randomly purchased one of these rare LG OLED sets for its testing.

If percentage of actual cases of burn in developing in the general public is 5%, 10, 15%, etc is not the point. The point is that the problem is not rare (even a 5% defect rate is substantial if developing in a premium product and is not covered by warranty, especially for the purchaser). My scientific intuition tells me, based upon the discussions on this forum and Rtings.com's testing, that the chance of burn-in developing after several hundred hours of viewing content with a static red, orange or red content at an OLED light setting of 60 or higher will be extremely high. If the purchaser doesn't fit this viewing pattern, he will probably be fine.

But this significant viewing limitation ought to have been/be clearly disclosed by LG to potential buyers so they know what they are getting into before they purchase the TV or can take proper precautions. I don't think anyone reporting burn in here intentionally intended to create this defect in their TV. Initial discussions of 2015 LG OLED displays on this forum indicated burn in almost never occurred in these early LG OLED displays (maybe because there were not that many sold compared to later years or later production changes). LG's mimimilistic disclosures regarding burn in reinforced this sense of security that developed.

However, LG almost certainly must have done enough testing to discover that burn in could develop under the use conditions that forum members with problems are describing here. But, presumably in the interest of not spooking potential buyers, LG chose to not disclose this limitation of use and now there are some pretty unhappy customers. For this reason, in my opinion, the "pox" is on LG's "house", not on the purchaser's.
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post #28 of 30 Old 12-09-2017, 02:33 PM
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At the risk of over-simplification, this is how it actually works:

From Wikipedia's definition of error bar:

"Error bars are graphical representations of the variability of data and used on graphs to indicate the error or uncertainty in a reported measurement. They give a general idea of how precise a measurement is, or conversely, how far from the reported value the true (error free) value might be. Error bars often represent one standard deviation of uncertainty, one standard error, or a particular confidence interval (e.g., a 95% interval). These quantities are not the same and so the measure selected should be stated explicitly in the graph or supporting text.

Error bars can be used to compare visually two quantities if various other conditions hold. This can determine whether differences are statistically significant. Error bars can also suggest goodness of fit of a given function, i.e., how well the function describes the data. Scientific papers in the experimental sciences are expected to include error bars on all graphs, though the practice differs somewhat between sciences, and each journal will have its own house style. It has also been shown that error bars can be used as a direct manipulation interface for controlling probabilistic algorithms for approximate computation.[1] Error bars can also be expressed in a plus-minus sign (±), plus the upper limit of the error and minus the lower limit of the error.[2]"

This is why most polls, for example political polls, include "margins of error" along with the median values derived from the poll.

Given the uncertainty in the quality of the data in these AVS polls, the statistical certainty of a given percentage of LG OLED "burn in" defects can not be calculated from this data. However, this is not the same as stating cases do not exist, as they clearly do. Additionally, if the frequency of 'burn in" cases developing under a specific set of conditions was extremely low, it would be highly unusual (in a statistical sense) for the Rtings.com to have been unlucky enough to have randomly purchased one of these rare LG OLED sets for its testing.

If percentage of actual cases of burn in developing in the general public is 5%, 10, 15%, etc is not the point. The point is that the problem is not rare (even a 5% defect rate is substantial if developing in a premium product and is not covered by warranty, especially for the purchaser). My scientific intuition tells me, based upon the discussions on this forum and Rtings.com's testing, that the chance of burn-in developing after several hundred hours of viewing content with a static red, orange or red content at an OLED light setting of 60 or higher will be extremely high. If the purchaser doesn't fit this viewing pattern, he will probably be fine.

But this significant viewing limitation ought to have been/be clearly disclosed by LG to potential buyers so they know what they are getting into before they purchase the TV or can take proper precautions. I don't think anyone reporting burn in here intentionally intended to create this defect in their TV. Initial discussions of 2015 LG OLED displays on this forum indicated burn in almost never occurred in these early LG OLED displays (maybe because there were not that many sold compared to later years or later production changes). LG's mimimilistic disclosures regarding burn in reinforced this sense of security that developed.

However, LG almost certainly must have done enough testing to discover that burn in could develop under the use conditions that forum members with problems are describing here. But, presumably in the interest of not spooking potential buyers, LG chose to not disclose this limitation of use and now there are some pretty unhappy customers. For this reason, in my opinion, the "pox" is on LG's "house", not on the purchaser's.
I will agree that OLED panel mfgers ought to do more research on this issue and do what they can to help prevent it or determine what actually causes it. Im sure those that had this happen are pissed, regardess of their use case(reasonable/normal or not). Ultimately, the market and industry always "corrects" itelf and if there are too many cases of BI on OLED sets then guess what? Sales will slump and they'll have to either fix it or the tech dies off. Sounds extreme but thats what will happen.

Right now, it still appears to be uncommon enough that it wont hurt the tech. But as I said, in due time we'll see how it goes. Hell, I could end up with BI someday and then I'll get something else. I only bought an OLED because I prefer emmissive display PQ quality. I certainly didnt do it be nice to LG. If they screwed this up then too bad for them.

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See my other reply in the other post. Just like HAL told Dave Bowman in 2001: "this conversation can serve no purpose". You keep posting what you want and I’ll do th same. Let’s stop quoting each other though. I’m not going to argue statistics with you or anything else. If someone here decides to not buy an OLED due to FUD they read here then that’s THIER loss, not mine. Right? Neither you or I benefit or are harmed by ones TV choice. Take care.
Likewise, if someone reading these posts decides to buy an OLED because of the doubt you've been sowing on people's OLED BI experiences, and then ends up with burn-in, it's their loss, not yours, not mine. Some involved in the OLED and related businesses benefit. I benefit from knowing that my posts will prevent some folks from getting burn-in. That's how I benefit. That's my motivation.

What's this FUD you constantly speak of in general terms, yet you never point to any specifics? To me, and I'm sure others, it sounds like you're trying to sow generalized doubt on the whole issue of OLED BI. If you believe someone's spreading FUD, then call it out specifically, and let's discuss it.

When you posted that the rtings.com burn-in test requires hundreds of total, continuous hours of static logos for burn-in to occur, I called you out on your FUD specifically. What specifically are people saying about OLED BI that you have good reason to believe is FUD? Let's address it.

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i posted in a different thread before coming across this one.
I want to replace a Sony 850C with a lot of PQ problems with either a C7 or a 930E
It's funny (or sad) that reading this thread I changed my mind about 17 times... looks like I can't win, whichever decision I make.
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