LG OLED TVs at CES 2018 - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 1163 Old 01-04-2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Blaine Doss View Post
So is HFR the new 3D.. Besides gaming I don't see the benefits besides being new a gimmick to sell more TVs

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Live sports is #1
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post #212 of 1163 Old 01-04-2018, 10:19 PM
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Live sports is #1
Yes. I'm tired of choosing between 1080 at 60i and 720 at 60p. It would nice to be rewarded with 4k at 120p
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post #213 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 12:29 AM
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Ya I was hoping for hdr10+ and eARC to be added maybe they will announce it during their keynote

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Afaik the 2017s already do Support eARC since the latest FWs.

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post #214 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 07:39 AM
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This is all funny. I come back here every few years when I begin to consider a new TV, and am always reminded that I don’t care about all the technical detail; I just want the best picture possible. Currently have a 2014 Vizio 80” LCD, and am ready to pull the trigger on a 77” gen 7 LG OLED as soon as they hit $5,000. Won’t go any smaller than that. Sounds like there’s a chance for that price point this year...I am being “impatiently patient”...LOL. But again, considering where I’m coming from, I’m not concerned AT ALL about any issues. Just give me OLED and 77” and I’ll be thrilled! Thanks for all of the good info...I appreciate as I do my due diligence.


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post #215 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by steakhouse_ View Post
Afaik the 2017s already do Support eARC since the latest FWs.

https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/20...-sound.417431/
Converting TrueHD on HDMI into DD+ on ARC is nothing like eARC. Some people also find that doing that conversion causes bad audio lag on their setups.

So what was added is the ability to decode TrueHD for playback on the internal speakers, and to reencode it as DD+ for sending through ARC.

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post #216 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 08:51 AM
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No the 2017 and 2016 (and probably older) do 5:5 fine on 24fps input. Having the panel run at 120Hz and doing that just makes good sense. Wether you enable any motion enhancement on top of it is your choice of course.

The new 120Hz playback on the 2018 is for playing a video file on USB (or streaming) that is natively recorded at 120fps. The 2017 and older can't do that, they can only play 60fps or lower video files (and streaming). The B8 apparently will be limited to either playing 4k 120fps or 4k HDR 60fps (or lower), it won't do 4k with HDR and 120fps at the same time.
But i thought that 5:5 pulldown was when your display has 120hz for 24fps ? How can a 2018 model do the 5:5 pulldown if the display is stuck at 60hz with HDMI ? I'm talking about watching a Ultra HD Blu-ray disc using a UHD player (so with HDMI), not USB.
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post #217 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by waltinaz View Post
This is all funny. I come back here every few years when I begin to consider a new TV, and am always reminded that I don’t care about all the technical detail; I just want the best picture possible. Currently have a 2014 Vizio 80” LCD, and am ready to pull the trigger on a 77” gen 7 LG OLED as soon as they hit $5,000. Won’t go any smaller than that. Sounds like there’s a chance for that price point this year...I am being “impatiently patient”...LOL. But again, considering where I’m coming from, I’m not concerned AT ALL about any issues. Just give me OLED and 77” and I’ll be thrilled! Thanks for all of the good info...I appreciate as I do my due diligence.
Maybe the 77C8P will be that low at clearance time in about 15 months from now, that's a maybe too.......
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post #218 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 09:12 AM
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But i thought that 5:5 pulldown was when your display has 120hz for 24fps ? How can a 2018 model do the 5:5 pulldown if the display is stuck at 60hz with HDMI ? I'm talking about watching a Ultra HD Blu-ray disc using a UHD player (so with HDMI), not USB.
Input on HDMI is 24fps from your UHD player and the panel runs at 120Hz so the processor does 5:5 pulldown and displays each frame 5 times. HDMI runs at 24Hz and hence no problem. They have been doing this on all the models for a few years now. What you can't do is display a 120fps video using HDMI due to lack of bandwidth.

So HDMI input is limited to at most 60Hz but the panel operates at 120Hz (which it uses for frame interpolation to smooth motion, 5:5 pulldown, and stuff like that). Usually your HDMI will be 24Hz, 60Hz or maybe 50Hz (if dealing with PAL based content).

I am not sure how the processor deals with 50Hz input and 120Hz panel. That seems incompatible somehow. If the panel could drop to 100Hz it would make it simple but I have never seen any claims that it could.

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post #219 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Input on HDMI is 24fps from your UHD player and the panel runs at 120Hz so the processor does 5:5 pulldown and displays each frame 5 times. HDMI runs at 24Hz and hence no problem. They have been doing this on all the models for a few years now. What you can't do is display a 120fps video using HDMI due to lack of bandwidth.

So HDMI input is limited to at most 60Hz but the panel operates at 120Hz (which it uses for frame interpolation to smooth motion, 5:5 pulldown, and stuff like that). Usually your HDMI will be 24Hz, 60Hz or maybe 50Hz (if dealing with PAL based content).

I am not sure how the processor deals with 50Hz input and 120Hz panel. That seems incompatible somehow. If the panel could drop to 100Hz it would make it simple but I have never seen any claims that it could.
Oh okey, it seems a little clearer for me now, that wasn't easy because i saw some different answers on forums.

So, if i want a perfect fluidity for Ultra HD movies, is it safe to buy a 2018 model or wait another year ? (knowing that i don't care about videos shot at 120fps)
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post #220 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 09:43 AM
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The only source of 120 FPS content right now is PC gaming. But without the HDMI port to support it, the HFR feature will be completely useless till the 2019 models implement the HDMI 2.1 ports with increased bandwidth.
Are there any PC rigs that can actually render an FPS game at 4K HDR 120fps? If there are I wouldn't want to see the price of the video card(s)!

Dan
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post #221 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 10:08 AM
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Oh okey, it seems a little clearer for me now, that wasn't easy because i saw some different answers on forums.

So, if i want a perfect fluidity for Ultra HD movies, is it safe to buy a 2018 model or wait another year ? (knowing that i don't care about videos shot at 120fps)
Most UHD discs are 24fps so those will play just fine, and the 2018 models should have better motion processing than previous models (I would hope). A few UHD discs are 60fps and those will certainly work fine too. So there is no UHD discs that won't work perfectly fine with the 2018 model (and even previous models too, although they have less processing power and would probably have slightly weaker motion processing).

Of course some people are very sensitive to motion issues and CRT and plasma (and movie projections) had a natural fading of the frame (because of the use of phosphors being refreshed at regular intervals, or the shutter opening and closing in the movie projector case) that LCD and OLED does not have. Some LCDs pulse their backlight off and on quickly to simulate it which apparently works quite well, and some OLEDs (Sony A1E for example) can insert black frames between normal frames, although because they currently do it as a complete 1/120 of a second frame, some people notice flicker (and a slightly dimmer picture) if that feature is used (the LCDs pulse off for much less time than that on those models that can do it). Mostly LCD and OLED use frame interpolation to smooth motion instead with varying degrees of success (again people have different sensitivity to it, some implementations are more likely to cause artifacts from wrong interpolation in some cases, etc). If the frame interpolation works well, some people complain that it looks like a soap opera because it makes it look as smooth as 60fps video, which for some people is wrong for movies (which apparently need to have choppy motion but choppy in just the right way).

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post #222 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 10:17 AM
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Are there any PC rigs that can actually render an FPS game at 4K HDR 120fps? If there are I wouldn't want to see the price of the video card(s)!
Yeah, price is crazy. On the other hand, no current console can even come close to 120fps at 4K.

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post #223 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 10:23 AM
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Are there any PC rigs that can actually render an FPS game at 4K HDR 120fps? If there are I wouldn't want to see the price of the video card(s)!
If you're playing older games (which I do since I have a massive backlog) or Indie games, you'll have no problem hitting [email protected] Hz with $400 graphic cards like the GTX 1070.
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post #224 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 10:24 AM
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some people complain that it looks like a soap opera because it makes it look as smooth as 60fps video, which for some people is wrong for movies (which apparently need to have choppy motion but choppy in just the right way).
This is a fairly peculiar way of looking at the problem. "Some people" simply want to watch movies the way they are supposed to look. The way the director shot them. If you like the so called "soap opera effect" more power to you and there's no badwrong fun from where I come from. But discrediting other people's perfectly valid opinions this way is unfair.
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post #225 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 10:48 AM
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This is a fairly peculiar way of looking at the problem. "Some people" simply want to watch movies the way they are supposed to look. The way the director shot them. If you like the so called "soap opera effect" more power to you and there's no badwrong fun from where I come from. But discrediting other people's perfectly valid opinions this way is unfair.
I am not saying it is wrong. I am not even saying which I prefer, given I don't watch movies that often. I just find it amusing that people don't like things to look real while at the same time wanting a huge screen to get immersed in the movie (one would think unnatural motion would take away from that immersion).

I am also not convinced by claims that the director wanted it to look that way. It was a limitation of film trying to balance the cost and reel size versus making it look decent and now it is traditional for movies to be that way. Higher frame rates required faster cameras, more light or more sensitive film, bigger reels, etc.

Someone on the forum in the last few days complained about the hobbit being shot at 48fps and they thought it made them sick to watch. Clearly that director wanted smoother motion and some people disliked the smoother motion.

I wonder if the people that insist movies should be 24fps are the same ones that love film grain effect or if those are distinct groups. Clearly someone at netflix has an unhealthy desire to make everything look awful by covering everything in noise. They seem to put artificial film grain in so much stuff.

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post #226 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 11:01 AM
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I am also not convinced by claims that the director wanted it to look that way. It was a limitation of film trying to balance the cost and reel size versus making it look decent and now it is traditional for movies to be that way. Higher frame rates required faster cameras, more light or more sensitive film, bigger reels, etc.
It's not so much "the way the director wanted it". I stated "the way the director shot them" because, and I believe this to be a fact, directors are aware of limitations of 24 frames per second, so they take that into consideration when shooting. Movies shot at 24fps are meant to be watched at 24fps (or with any of the tricks currently in use to reduce flicker perception). You might dislike them, I'm not stating you *must* like them (you or anyone else, that is), I'm simply saying that people liking the "movie look" have rational reasons to like it.
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Someone on the forum in the last few days complained about the hobbit being shot at 48fps and they thought it made them sick to watch. Clearly that director wanted smoother motion and some people disliked the smoother motion.
This is a different matter. It's a matter of personal taste, in this case. Nobody could claim that the movie was being improperly played back in the movie theatre (which is what we say about 24fps movies played back with motion interpolation). Anybody could state that they don't like that look. I personally don't like it but, again, this is personal taste and I wouldn't dream of denying other people the opportunity to enjoy HFR content when available.
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post #227 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 11:06 AM
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Are there any PC rigs that can actually render an FPS game at 4K HDR 120fps? If there are I wouldn't want to see the price of the video card(s)!

Dan

not 120.. but 90-100 range is pretty normal for my HTPC/gaming box at 4k. But I'd love to see the VFR/Gysnc/freesync option. Right now it is vysnc on and locked at 60 or off with ripping. Not a super big deal for me as i'm playing with a controller on the TV so i'm not bumping into the input "feeling" off when the screen isn't refreshing fast enough to match the speed i'd expect from using a mouse...
I really want to see the RGB, 10/12bit, 4:4:4!!

But maybe a new 77" will hold me over till next year's 2.1

cost? well.. i have a titan V in this system now (which is silly.. and not really powerful enough ($3000))
Normally i'd have two Titan Xps in SLI which are monsters. (so.. $2400)
But the next gen cards are coming out soon too.. so 120fps should be very doable in most games @ 4k (in SLI.)

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post #228 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 11:31 AM
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Are there any PC rigs that can actually render an FPS game at 4K HDR 120fps? If there are I wouldn't want to see the price of the video card(s)!

Dan
Would require a dual card set up and, given that guys are still chartering jumbos to fill them up with GPU's for crypto mining farms, you are looking at a pretty penny for a dual 1070, 1080 or Vega rig.
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post #229 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 12:04 PM
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It's not so much "the way the director wanted it". I stated "the way the director shot them" because, and I believe this to be a fact, directors are aware of limitations of 24 frames per second, so they take that into consideration when shooting. Movies shot at 24fps are meant to be watched at 24fps (or with any of the tricks currently in use to reduce flicker perception). You might dislike them, I'm not stating you *must* like them (you or anyone else, that is), I'm simply saying that people liking the "movie look" have rational reasons to like it.
This is a different matter. It's a matter of personal taste, in this case. Nobody could claim that the movie was being improperly played back in the movie theatre (which is what we say about 24fps movies played back with motion interpolation). Anybody could state that they don't like that look. I personally don't like it but, again, this is personal taste and I wouldn't dream of denying other people the opportunity to enjoy HFR content when available.
Well hopefully OLEDs in the future will come up with better ways to smooth motion without doing frame interpolation to make everyone happy. There is a lot of 24fps content after all and clearly inventing frames will have artifacts some of the time and isn't ideal although better than nothing.

I suspect I am not too sensitive to motion issues given the only time so far I have found a problem with my OLED was trying to watch a hockey game which was a blurry mess when things moved. Turning on football mode solved that very well though. The few movies I have watched have looked great (to me that is) with whatever the default settings for motion are on the A1E.
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post #230 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 12:24 PM
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Maybe the 77C8P will be that low at clearance time in about 15 months from now, that's a maybe too.......
Oh, come on, it's probavly a probably .
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post #231 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 02:08 PM
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Are there any PC rigs that can actually render an FPS game at 4K HDR 120fps? If there are I wouldn't want to see the price of the video card(s)!

Dan
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If you're playing older games (which I do since I have a massive backlog) or Indie games, you'll have no problem hitting [email protected] Hz with $400 graphic cards like the GTX 1070.
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Would require a dual card set up and, given that guys are still chartering jumbos to fill them up with GPU's for crypto mining farms, you are looking at a pretty penny for a dual 1070, 1080 or Vega rig.
None of this even matters, because there isn't a single GPU that has an HDMI 2.1 port either. And if the new Nvidia GPUs (Volta) are coming anytime soon, they will not include HDMI 2.1 for the same reason this years Televisions won't; the specification came too late.

It's unfortunate for people that like to game, because there already is a widely accepted standard that can carry the needed bandwidth for 4k 120fps and HDR. Screw HDMI 2.1. I'd much rather have an OLED with Displayport 1.4.
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post #232 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 02:41 PM
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None of this even matters, because there isn't a single GPU that has an HDMI 2.1 port either. And if the new Nvidia GPUs (Volta) are coming anytime soon, they will not include HDMI 2.1 for the same reason this years Televisions won't; the specification came too late. .
What magic hat did you just pull this bull**** from? Nvidia has always lead the way in connectivity. First to 1.4, first to 2.0. Also, the next GAMER card is not VOLTA. That was strictly for Medical, data, and AI developement. Nvidia is introducing AMPHERE for gamers in March at it's own event. And because everyone else is late doesn't mean they will be. Amphere supposedly went into Mass Production this week from the annual shareholders conference last month to build inventory for intro in March, launch in April. If you know anything about the gpu market, it's always 3 months of production before physical launch so yes, they had time to implement HDMI 2.1. This isn't AMD with limited funds on the GPU side.

Also, most popular games on PC are older and can push beyond 120fps at 4K even on a 980Ti. (CounterStrike which is the most popular pushes over 200 on mine at 1080 and [email protected] 4K.)

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post #233 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 03:09 PM
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You guys are ridiculous. You have a tv now in the 7 series that is pretty much the best picture you can buy and you all thought the 8 was going to be some blow it out of the water type thing. I'm happy my 7 series is still great and there is no need to run out and over spend for a 2018 set. Enjoy your sets and quit complaining.
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post #234 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DRaven72 View Post
What magic hat did you just pull this bull**** from? Nvidia has always lead the way in connectivity. First to 1.4, first to 2.0. Also, the next GAMER card is not VOLTA.
Don't be silly. This is a rumor. It could be true or not true. We won't know till Nvidia releases the new cards. They aren't in a rush as they have no competition. (and gaming makes a smaller share of their sales these days.) It clearly won't be the same Titan V as that is cores that have nothing to do with gaming. It is also doubtful it will HBM2 too.
But it could be a stripped down volta without tensor cores. Or it might be Amprer (whatever that is... ) My money is on stripped down Volta. But i know as much as you do. Which is nothing.

As deadacclaim pointed out, whatever card it is, it is very unlikely that it will have hdmi 2.1. For my bank account balance i hope they wait till the end of the year ro release the new cards so they might have 2.1. Otherwise i'll HAVE to upgrade in a few months and then again at the end of the year. (yeah, HAVE to!)

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post #235 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrsky View Post
120fps would require hdmi 2.1. The bandwidth in hdmi 2.0x is not enough to deliver true 120fps @ 4k.
I'd just like to remind everybody that 4k @ 120Hz 8bpc 4:2:0 uses the exact same amount of bandwidth as 4k @ 60Hz 8bpc 4:4:4, and that 99.99% of all recorded digital video is already encoded in 4:2:0.
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post #236 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
I'd just like to remind everybody that 4k @ 120Hz 8bpc 4:2:0 uses the exact same amount of bandwidth as 4k @ 60Hz 8bpc 4:4:4, and that 99.99% of all recorded digital video is already encoded in 4:2:0.
Yes, but text looks like crap with anything other than 4:4:4.

And some people also want HDR at the same time.

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post #237 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Yes, but text looks like crap with anything other than 4:4:4.
Only for colored text.

For greyscale text, OLED with it's WRGB sub-pixel layout already cannot take proper advantage of sub-pixel anti-aliasing meaning that you need to use full-pixel anti-aliasing (or no anti-aliasing) to have greyscale text looking the best it can. As 4:2:0 as chroma subsampling only applies to color information, greyscale text that isn't directly next to color would look identical whether displayed at 4:4:4 or 4:2:0.


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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
And some people also want HDR at the same time.
You could cheat and just use 8bpc HDR.

Nevertheless, HDMI 2.0 definitely has enough bandwidth for 10bit 4k 4:2:0 @ 90Hz and probably 10bit 4k 4:2:0 @ 96Hz, but it's questionable whether a TV would support that refresh rate without VRR. Alternatively, HDMI 2.0 might have enough bandwidth for 10bit 4k 4:2:0 @ 100Hz which, assuming the bandwidth isn't too much, is more likely to be supported on TVs without VRR as the 2017 OLEDs already support that but at 1080p.
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post #238 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Only for colored text.

For greyscale text, OLED with it's WRGB sub-pixel layout already cannot take proper advantage of sub-pixel anti-aliasing meaning that you need to use full-pixel anti-aliasing (or no anti-aliasing) to have greyscale text looking the best it can. As 4:2:0 as chroma subsampling only applies to color information, greyscale text that isn't directly next to color would look identical whether displayed at 4:4:4 or 4:2:0.

You could cheat and just use 8bpc HDR.

Nevertheless, HDMI 2.0 definitely has enough bandwidth for 10bit 4k 4:2:0 @ 90Hz and probably 10bit 4k 4:2:0 @ 96Hz, but it's questionable whether a TV would support that refresh rate without VRR. Alternatively, HDMI 2.0 might have enough bandwidth for 10bit 4k 4:2:0 @ 100Hz which, assuming the bandwidth isn't too much, is more likely to be supported on TVs without VRR as the 2017 OLEDs already support that but at 1080p.
Greyscale text on greyscale (white?) should be OK, but sometimes text is on a color background.

As for bandwidth well:

4k HDR @ 60Hz with 4:4:4 needs 18.7Gbps, which is more than 18 so yeah that one is out.
4k HDR @ 90Hz with 4:2:0 needs 14 Gbps so yes that should be possible. It isn't officially a standard HDMI resolution so no idea if anything would support it.
100Hz looks fine too at 15.6 Gbps. Heck even 110Hz is only 17.1 Gbps. Too bad HDMI 2.0 missed 4k 60Hz HDR 4:4:4 by 4%.

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post #239 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Maybe the 77C8P will be that low at clearance time in about 15 months from now, that's a maybe too.......
I think that has a good chance of happening. Nothing special (like 3D) to keep their demand and prices.
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post #240 of 1163 Old 01-05-2018, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
I want a 88" Old for the larger screen because the wall my tv is 14'. I do not want the 88" for 8k which is just hype but have a feeling the only way I am going to get a screen larger than 77" is to get a 8k tv. When I move into a house in a few years I already got the ok from the WIFE to build a dedicated theater which I got a budget of $250,000. Hopefully I can have it done for less but I am going all out. The big tv will go in the living room.
250K?? Wow. For 250K I could pay off my 3 cars, both our student loans, our boat, all our credit card debt and our Hawaii wedding and honeymoon or I could buy two 2019 ZR1’s. I’d rather have a ZR1 lol.

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