Status of Dolby Vision raised blacks issue on OLEDS - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 1258 Old 11-15-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Patsfan123 View Post
Do you have Dolby Vision on the x700 set to On or Off during these tests?
Off. Both are HDR10 discs. I've never forced DV on HDR10 discs. Is there any benefit/detriment to doing so?

EDIT: I’m now convinced there is a raised black issue specifically with Rambo: First Blood Part II. I miscounted my UHD discs earlier (I was only counting DV discs). I have around 30. I checked each and every one of them tonight. With sub brightness at 127, every DV disc looks perfect at 50. Every HDR10 disc looks perfect at 51 - with the exception of Rambo II. That one needs to be at 49 or the letterbox bars become visible. Must be a mastering issue with that particular disc. First Blood and Rambo III are both fine at 51.

Wxman, I suggest double-checking your E6 with regard to 51/50. 51 on DV is BARELY noticeably above pure black. By barely, I mean you have to have your nose on the screen, and you can just distinguish the signal noise. At 50 this vanishes.

I’m confident that the HDR10 at 49 ONLY affects Rambo II.

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post #1172 of 1258 Old 11-15-2018, 11:13 PM
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I'm still not sure what's going on with this issue. I've got raised black levels in both HDR10 and DV on my C7 (through Oppo 203).



When viewing HDR content, a black level (brightness) setting of 50 sometimes produces blacks that are not black. In SDR the correct brightness setting is 51 - black things like letterbox bars are 100% black.


I just checked two discs. In Blue Planet 2 (HDR10), the ocean deep episode has a shot where it cuts to pitch black. On my C7 at 50, it's just dark grey. If I lower the brightness to 47 then it's black (48 looks close, but with my eyes right to the screen 47 actually shuts off the pixels).


In Tomb Raider (Dolby Vision), the letterbox bars are not pure black at 50. At 48 (maybe also 47) they appear to be fully off.


Is this something to do with the minimum luminance value? Is 50 the right setting and the content is, for some reason, mastered above 0% black? Or should I really be using a brightness of 47?
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post #1173 of 1258 Old 11-16-2018, 02:18 AM
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Some HDR10 content is mastered slightly above black, which is terrible for dark room viewers.
I've seen this on quite a few movies when there are fade to black scene transitions.
Analyzing such scenes on my PC with a color picker confirmed that it is indeed not true black in these cases.
There must be quite a few incompetent colorists out there...

Last edited by jk82; 11-16-2018 at 02:21 AM.
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post #1174 of 1258 Old 11-16-2018, 07:05 AM
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Yeah, I've seen SDR movies where the bars aren't 100% black.
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post #1175 of 1258 Old 11-16-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Bacon_67 View Post
Yeah, I've seen SDR movies where the bars aren't 100% black.
I've seen that too a few times. I probably have 3 or 4 out of 500 in my collection with that issue. In fact, the last one I saw that had with that issue was The Equalizer. I thought it was a bad disc, but when I upgraded to the UHD version, the BD included still had that issue. It's only in a few scenes, and you have to be in a totally dark room to see it as it's rather faint but there on the BD, yet not on the UHD disc.

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post #1176 of 1258 Old 11-16-2018, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie.modernist View Post

Unrelated, but has anyone watched Homecoming on Amazon? Great show, with great photography from Tod Campbell. This show also has high black levels by design (SDR), and applies them to the 1:1 pillarbox bars, making them gray. Love the look, but then it sort of reminded me of a bad DV experience lol.
Yes - I noticed this last night...I checked and it was identical on Apple TV and internal tv amazon app
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post #1177 of 1258 Old 11-16-2018, 09:15 PM
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Yes - I noticed this last night...I checked and it was identical on Apple TV and internal tv amazon app
Yeah this is definitely the look they were going for. The contrast and black levels looks quite similar to Esmail’s Mr. Robot, but polar opposite from Stranger Things, both of which were shot by this DP. Goes to show how much influence a director can have over color. I actually think these gray bars are nice in this context as it helps with the filmic feel, but I couldn’t get the reminder of this stupid DV issue out of my head lol.

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post #1178 of 1258 Old 11-19-2018, 04:59 AM
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I did experience raised blacks in one scene during the Matrix in UHD. It’s when the crew is hiding in the walls about halfway through the film and cipher starts bumping people off. It’s about a 3-4 second scene. The bars and the background turn grayish. Then, it never happens again. Weird. I’m not worried though, this is the only sin stance of this I’ve seen on any DV disc thus far.

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post #1179 of 1258 Old 11-19-2018, 10:10 AM
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I watched the movie The Salvation on blu ray last night. Wow, that has elevated black bars from the start. When the movie starts the whole screen is grey, instead of black, including letterbox bars. Then when an actual scene plays, even a bright scene, you can see plenty of noise in the letterbox bars. This is a recent movie made in 2015. So some of these issues are a mastering problem and there really isnt anything we can do to fix that.

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post #1180 of 1258 Old 11-19-2018, 02:15 PM
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I can’t speak about individual discs but I think the issue is that these problems are apparently absent on non oled panels.


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post #1181 of 1258 Old 11-19-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
I can’t speak about individual discs but I think the issue is that these problems are apparently absent on non oled panels.


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There have been reports of elevated black bars on the Sony Z9D with DV.

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post #1182 of 1258 Old 11-20-2018, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Stirling View Post
I can’t speak about individual discs but I think the issue is that these problems are apparently absent on non oled panels.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
You wouldn't be able to see these on non-oled panels so it could have been going on for years without anyone none the wiser.

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post #1183 of 1258 Old 11-20-2018, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Patsfan123 View Post
You wouldn't be able to see these on non-oled panels so it could have been going on for years without anyone none the wiser.


I’m not sure that’s true any more. LCD TVs can go blacker than the elevated blacks people are seeing on Dolby Vision movies. Add to that is Dolby’s admission of a bug affecting LG oleds as the route of the problem.

My admittedly baseless belief is that the mastering is not the issue and bugs remain in how Dolby Vision is implemented.


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post #1184 of 1258 Old 11-20-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Croweyes1121 View Post
Off. Both are HDR10 discs. I've never forced DV on HDR10 discs. Is there any benefit/detriment to doing so?

EDIT: I’m now convinced there is a raised black issue specifically with Rambo: First Blood Part II. I miscounted my UHD discs earlier (I was only counting DV discs). I have around 30. I checked each and every one of them tonight. With sub brightness at 127, every DV disc looks perfect at 50. Every HDR10 disc looks perfect at 51 - with the exception of Rambo II. That one needs to be at 49 or the letterbox bars become visible. Must be a mastering issue with that particular disc. First Blood and Rambo III are both fine at 51.

Wxman, I suggest double-checking your E6 with regard to 51/50. 51 on DV is BARELY noticeably above pure black. By barely, I mean you have to have your nose on the screen, and you can just distinguish the signal noise. At 50 this vanishes.

I’m confident that the HDR10 at 49 ONLY affects Rambo II.
51 is correct setting on my E6 with DV. I always watch in a totally dark room, and there is no glow, even 2 inches away. Leaving at 50 there is an obvious black crush. After the adjustment to sub brightness I had to raise brightness 1 click for all gammas. From 50 to 51 for 2.2. 52 to 53 for 2.4 and 1886 and from 50 to 51 for HDR10. In reality, if I use the Masciola calibration disc for HDR10, the correct brightness should be 52.

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Last edited by wxman; 11-20-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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post #1185 of 1258 Old 11-20-2018, 05:21 PM
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I use 50 for DV (51 absolutely has a glow on my panel in some scenes, though not all).
HDR10 is 51.
SDR is 52.
I do use Gamma 2.2, btw.

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post #1186 of 1258 Old 12-01-2018, 08:51 PM
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Watching Valerian UHD tonight on my LG C7 65" + OPPO UHD-203. Raised blacks kick in exactly at 2:10:00, right when there is a final scene cut and the last song "A Million On My Soul" begins.

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post #1187 of 1258 Old 12-02-2018, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Croweyes1121 View Post
I use 50 for DV (51 absolutely has a glow on my panel in some scenes, though not all).
HDR10 is 51.
SDR is 52.
I do use Gamma 2.2, btw.
Have you tried gamma BT1886 with brightness at 52? Justin curious.

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post #1188 of 1258 Old 12-02-2018, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Croweyes1121 View Post
I use 50 for DV (51 absolutely has a glow on my panel in some scenes, though not all).
HDR10 is 51.
SDR is 52.
I do use Gamma 2.2, btw.
Have you tried gamma BT1886 with brightness at 52? Just curious.

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post #1189 of 1258 Old 12-02-2018, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Croweyes1121 View Post
I use 50 for DV (51 absolutely has a glow on my panel in some scenes, though not all).
HDR10 is 51.
SDR is 52.
I do use Gamma 2.2, btw.
Have you tried gamma BT1886 with brightness at 52? Just curious.
You mean 51 (for DV)? No, but that would, in all likelihood, negate the need to go to 50 in DV. The glow at 51 is *incredibly* hard to see, but there. Keep in mind, I’ve set sub-brightness to 127 as well.
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post #1190 of 1258 Old 12-02-2018, 09:52 PM
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Opening credits on Mute are back to being grey slides on 5.80.04 and the latest internal Netflix app. It’s actually better on Apple TV over hdmi, but still not 0 black like it used to be on the internal app. Elevated blacks definitely aren’t only for hdmi sources...
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post #1191 of 1258 Old 12-03-2018, 03:11 PM
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Hi guys,


I'm one of the almost very happy owners of LG C8. One issue that making me mad is this black level issue on Dolby Vision.


I was really pissed reading all of that comments, that suggested that is HDMI only issue. Obviously is not, as i see elevated blacks on every Netflix show in interal app (does anyone know any Dolby Vision show with really pure black levels? i don't)... I haven't seen similar issues on HDR10 content. Obviously the letter box bars were fine, but not the blacks. Issue was clearly see on almost all end credits i've checked - most notably on MindHunter end credits, or at the beginning of Bright.


I thought i first i could fix that by lowering the brightness to 49. Well, that "fixes" that issue, but at what cost? We're loosing so much shadow details, that this couldn't be a viable solution (btw, why we get 1-100 point scale of brigthness, where even 1 point make such a big difference?).



My my TVss cinema and gaming profiles were professionaly calibrated by best polish calibrator. I phoned him and ask him what is going on with this Dolby Vision. He told me that he knows this issue and it's because this content has been mastered this way and what only i could do is to lower the brightness by one point (by the cost of loosing shadow detail). I was furious. I actually bought this TV because of good Dolby Vision implementation. I paid for professional calibration of it and i still had the incorrrect image and everybody said nothing can be done on this topic.



Reading this topic didn't help at all... No ideas on fixing this - a lot of people just checking if letterbox bars are greyed not checking the actual content of the image.



Today i installed new software 04.10.15 on LG C8. First thing i've checked was of course raised black levels on Dolby Vision. Unfortunately, new software changes nothing on this matter.


So i was planning to come here and share my sorrow my pain with you guys, but before writing i decided to test all possible settings.
First i've checked all the additional options in the menus (noise reductors, super resolution, tru motion etc) which are turned off always. Nothing helped.
Then i've checked OLED light - lowering it did not helped. And we don't want to do that anyway...
Brightness changes are no go obviously...

Then Sharpness - it was really strange because after applying like 20 or 25 on this grey black dissapeared but strange line at the top appeared. So it was somehow affected by processing of the TV! I reverted the sharpness settings and tried the contrast.
I just dropped contrast from 100 to 99 and... IT WORKS! I really couldn't believe it. I've searched whole internet for the solution, and nobody mentioned that. It's not that we get perfect black then, but is really really good, almost perfect. From reasonable viewing distance it's black (2m for 65 inch for me) and lowering contrast further doesn't change anything. If it works on Mindhunter end credits i assume it should work everywhere. I will try to test a lot of troublesome scenes as well as normal viewing scenes to check how this particular change affects the image, but from what i found so far i could't find any difference on naked eye with normal viewing, but it fixes almost perfectly all the near black issues i had with DV.



To summarize: LG C8, Internal LG Netflix app, latest software 04.10.15, Dolby Vision Cinema profile, drop contrast from 100 to 99 and let me know, if that somehow mitigates this issue for you and what's the impact on the image. Try also with the external devices if possible.
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post #1192 of 1258 Old 12-03-2018, 03:42 PM
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Ok i think i was too fast with announcing a full success.



Although on 5 different movies/series change was working fine, I already found an example where the fix was not working, and it was end credits of Altered Carbon. So unfortunately my assumption that it will work everywhere is not correct



But what is happening there on those end credits of Altered Carbon? Like the level of brightness of this black glow is changing in patterns when lowering down the contrast - we get the same level of brightness error every 3 levels or contrast, (so we get the same image at 100, 97, 94 etc. and correspondigly 99, 96, 93). What the hell... This really suggests that it is not a DV mastering issue, but an LG bug! Not to mention that it is not a normal glow with pixel by pixel - with the issues i'm having there are diagonal lines running from bottom to the top in repeating order... Visible from very close from the screen. Really difficult to describe this, but once you see it you will know what i meant. I doubt my screen is defective, as a lot of people are reporting this black level issues even on internal app. This has to be a LG bug.
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post #1193 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 12:03 PM
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The reason why people are only focusing on the black level in the letterbox bars is because that’s the only way to truly gauge this issue. You cannot and should not adjust your panel’s black level based on how black the background is during the credits on anything. The reason for this is that, if the letterbox bars are pure black, then you have verifiable proof that your panel is displaying something intended to be pure black AS pure black. For example: if you’re seeing pure black bars, but a raised black background during the credits, then the raised black background is INHERENT to the content. And the reason you know that is that just above and below that content, your set is displaying pure black. Another way to look at it is that the letterbox bars are PART of the content - they are not separate from the content. Effectively, you’re seeing content that’s accurately displaying as pure black directly next to content that YOU THINK should ALSO be displaying as pure black. If something within the letterbox bars isn’t displaying as black and the bars themselves are, then that content wasn’t mastered as true black. It cannot be a display issue with your panel if you have pure black bars. When I see pure black bars, I completely stop caring about the black levels between them, because I already know I’m displaying black correctly on my end.
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post #1194 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Croweyes1121 View Post
The reason why people are only focusing on the black level in the letterbox bars is because that’s the only way to truly gauge this issue. You cannot and should not adjust your panel’s black level based on how black the background is during the credits on anything. The reason for this is that, if the letterbox bars are pure black, then you have verifiable proof that your panel is displaying something intended to be pure black AS pure black. For example: if you’re seeing pure black bars, but a raised black background during the credits, then the raised black background is INHERENT to the content. And the reason you know that is that just above and below that content, your set is displaying pure black. The letterbox bars are PART of the content - they are not separate from the content. Effectively, you’re seeing content that’s accurately displaying as pure black directly next to content that YOU THINK should ALSO be displaying as pure black. If it isn’t displaying that way, then it was mastered that way. It may not look pure black, but that’s clearly not a display issue with your panel if you have pure black bars. When I see pure black bars, I completely stop caring about the black levels between them, because I already know I’m displaying black correctly on my end.

While letterbox bars are a sure way to check for the problem, I think we can safely say the Mute intro wasn't mastered to have grey slides with no text display for 1 second between credit transitions, especially when the screen stays at 0 black on the HDR10 version and was previously black on the internal app in DV...
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post #1195 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Croweyes1121 View Post
The reason why people are only focusing on the black level in the letterbox bars is because that’s the only way to truly gauge this issue. You cannot and should not adjust your panel’s black level based on how black the background is during the credits on anything. The reason for this is that, if the letterbox bars are pure black, then you have verifiable proof that your panel is displaying something intended to be pure black AS pure black. For example: if you’re seeing pure black bars, but a raised black background during the credits, then the raised black background is INHERENT to the content. And the reason you know that is that just above and below that content, your set is displaying pure black. Another way to look at it is that the letterbox bars are PART of the content - they are not separate from the content. Effectively, you’re seeing content that’s accurately displaying as pure black directly next to content that YOU THINK should ALSO be displaying as pure black. If something within the letterbox bars isn’t displaying as black and the bars themselves are, then that content wasn’t mastered as true black. It cannot be a display issue with your panel if you have pure black bars. When I see pure black bars, I completely stop caring about the black levels between them, because I already know I’m displaying black correctly on my end.
This was an interesting read, thanks a bunch!

Now as to your last sentence, I wish I could do the same (stop caring, that is). Even when the bars are black as can be, especially when watching DV-content the rest of the screen just looks washed out and grey. Now, I have no idea if that's what it's supposed to look like, but I find it hard to believe that practically "nothing" is mastered to feature true blacks in the actual content apart from the letterbox bars.

This is obviously not a critique of your post, but just some musings on my obsession to get the picture as close to "perfect" as humanly possible before calling an actual calibration wizard.

And while I'm on the subject, if anyone at any point would have the time to maybe post a picture, any picture, of DV-content (preferably from Netflix, and if possible either from an Apple TV 4K or the webOS-app) featuring true black in the actual content (not credits) it would be swell! Obviously not life or death, but it would interest me greatly and maybe put an end to me obsessing over this. As it stands, rationality has left long ago and currently it's Obsession City, population me.

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post #1196 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 02:51 PM
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While letterbox bars are a sure way to check for the problem, I think we can safely say the Mute intro wasn't mastered to have grey slides with no text display for 1 second between credit transitions, especially when the screen stays at 0 black on the HDR10 version and was previously black on the internal app in DV...
Then this would again point to something being amiss with the internal app’s DV delivery to your panel, not with your panel’s handling of DV itself.
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post #1197 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 02:53 PM
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This was an interesting read, thanks a bunch!

Now as to your last sentence, I wish I could do the same (stop caring, that is). Even when the bars are black as can be, especially when watching DV-content the rest of the screen just looks washed out and grey. Now, I have no idea if that's what it's supposed to look like, but I find it hard to believe that practically "nothing" is mastered to feature true blacks in the actual content apart from the letterbox bars.

This is obviously not a critique of your post, but just some musings on my obsession to get the picture as close to "perfect" as humanly possible before calling an actual calibration wizard.

And while I'm on the subject, if anyone at any point would have the time to maybe post a picture, any picture, of DV-content (preferably from Netflix, and if possible either from an Apple TV 4K or the webOS-app) featuring true black in the actual content (not credits) it would be swell! Obviously not life or death, but it would interest me greatly and maybe put an end to me obsessing over this. As it stands, rationality has left long ago and currently it's Obsession City, population me.
Is this only happening in streaming apps? If so, I’d point the finger at the DV implementation of the apps. I see pure blacks regularly with DV on 4K UHD discs.
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post #1198 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 05:24 PM
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Is this only happening in streaming apps? If so, I’d point the finger at the DV implementation of the apps. I see pure blacks regularly with DV on 4K UHD discs.
Currently streaming apps are all I have to go on, as none of the discs I own as of yet are DV-versions. It seems I need to get me a Dolby Vision one in the near future.

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post #1199 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 11:08 PM
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Currently streaming apps are all I have to go on, as none of the discs I own as of yet are DV-versions. It seems I need to get me a Dolby Vision one in the near future.
I believe you are absolutely right. As it is Christmas I strongly suggest treating yourself to at least one Dolby Vision Disk. May I suggest Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 as an excellent choice to really appreciate your TV. This will hopefully either cure your obsession, or let you know it's time to bring in a Calibrator
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post #1200 of 1258 Old 12-05-2018, 11:24 PM
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The reason why people are only focusing on the black level in the letterbox bars is because that’s the only way to truly gauge this issue. You cannot and should not adjust your panel’s black level based on how black the background is during the credits on anything. The reason for this is that, if the letterbox bars are pure black, then you have verifiable proof that your panel is displaying something intended to be pure black AS pure black. For example: if you’re seeing pure black bars, but a raised black background during the credits, then the raised black background is INHERENT to the content. And the reason you know that is that just above and below that content, your set is displaying pure black. Another way to look at it is that the letterbox bars are PART of the content - they are not separate from the content. Effectively, you’re seeing content that’s accurately displaying as pure black directly next to content that YOU THINK should ALSO be displaying as pure black. If something within the letterbox bars isn’t displaying as black and the bars themselves are, then that content wasn’t mastered as true black. It cannot be a display issue with your panel if you have pure black bars. When I see pure black bars, I completely stop caring about the black levels between them, because I already know I’m displaying black correctly on my end.
Your statement is not true for LG internal applications. Internal LG Netflix App doesn't sent the black bars info in the stream in Dolby Vision. Therefore, if the black is somehow rendered wrong in the stream, you will see it only on actual content and not on the letterbox black bars. I only use internal app and see tons of raised black errors across the available content.

However, the statement probably is true for external HDMI DV content, where letterbox are sent within the stream. I did quick test using Xbox One X Netflix app and could confirm I had consistent error on raised blacks during end credits and on the letterbox bars in the same time - they were essentially the same. Issue is far more worse on the Xbox One X and "contrast workaround" wasn't working here.
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