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post #1 of 66 Old 01-16-2018, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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LG 2018, wait or buy now

So now that the 2018 LG TVs have been announced I'm trying to make a decision. Do I wait for the 2018 OLEDs or get one of the 2017 OLEDs at a discount? So I thought I'd see what others on the forum are thinking. Anyone have any thoughts?
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post #2 of 66 Old 01-16-2018, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mladams922 View Post
So now that the 2018 LG TVs have been announced I'm trying to make a decision. Do I wait for the 2018 OLEDs or get one of the 2017 OLEDs at a discount? So I thought I'd see what others on the forum are thinking. Anyone have any thoughts?
Up to you, new will be twice as much, so if you do wait for a 2018 wait for about 6 months until the price is about half.

This is assumes they go with the same pricing model they have been going with for years.

Maybe this article can sum it up for you

https://www.cnet.com/news/lg-oled-tv...ccess-in-2018/

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post #3 of 66 Old 01-16-2018, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mladams922 View Post
So now that the 2018 LG TVs have been announced I'm trying to make a decision. Do I wait for the 2018 OLEDs or get one of the 2017 OLEDs at a discount? So I thought I'd see what others on the forum are thinking. Anyone have any thoughts?
If you need a TV ASAP, the 7-Series is a better deal currently (and your only option until ~April).

If you can afford to wait until November, you'll probably be able to pick up an 8-Series for below the current price of the 7-Series.

If your on the fence, I'd suggest hanging tight until at least May or so. The 8-Series seems to be incrementally superior in a few modest ways, but after the step-backwards LG took on the near-black uniformity front in 2017, better near-black uniformity could be the most important reason to prefer an 8-Series over a 7-Series (assuming LG is sble to get the 8-Series back to where the 6-Series was before theu took a step backwards in 2017...).

I'm also eyeing the 8-series but will not move until I'm confident to get a screen at least as good as my 65C6P .
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post #4 of 66 Old 01-16-2018, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mladams922 View Post
So now that the 2018 LG TVs have been announced I'm trying to make a decision. Do I wait for the 2018 OLEDs or get one of the 2017 OLEDs at a discount? So I thought I'd see what others on the forum are thinking. Anyone have any thoughts?
I’d wait until the fall and get a C8. It will be as cheap or cheaper than the C7 is now and uses LGs new A9 processor to drive the panel.
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post #5 of 66 Old 01-17-2018, 10:03 AM
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Odds are the new one's will be more cash and not worth the extra charge, possibly a break even with the advancements. That is my guess......We have to wait for them to be released, then tested, and picked apart here on AVS to be 100% sure... If they are released in March you will have to wait about a month after to know the full scoop.
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post #6 of 66 Old 01-18-2018, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Right now I have a 55" Samsung LED from 6 or so years ago - UN55C8000. It's a good set but I recently upgraded my receiver to a Denon AVR-X2400H to get ready for 4k HDR, I'm eyeing the Xbox One X or a blu-ray player that supports Dolby Vision, and I have the money - I'm just itching to pull the trigger! I want to get that upgrade in video quality to match the great sound I have now! Plus the 55" set is a little small for the room.
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post #7 of 66 Old 01-18-2018, 06:23 AM
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I don't know why everyone keeps saying the 8 isn't an improvement over the 7? It seems to me it's about the same as the improvement from the 6 to 7 which most people agreed was significant. I for one am waiting for the price drop on the 65"C8 late this year.
Can't wait for Vincent Teoh to review the C8! He should give a very informative comparison to the C7.
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post #8 of 66 Old 01-19-2018, 01:44 AM
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I just bought a C7 65 "for € 2,300!! Incredible. My advice: buy the C7 now. If you wait for the price of the C8 to fall in the fall, you will be a few months away from the C9 with HDMI 2.1 and much more important improvements than this And you'll want to keep waiting ... You never enjoy, buy the C7 at an excellent price and enjoy it now.
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post #9 of 66 Old 01-21-2018, 08:10 AM
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I just bought a C7 65 "for € 2,300!! Incredible. My advice: buy the C7 now. If you wait for the price of the C8 to fall in the fall, you will be a few months away from the C9 with HDMI 2.1 and much more important improvements than this And you'll want to keep waiting ... You never enjoy, buy the C7 at an excellent price and enjoy it now.
I have a G6 and Considering an 2018 as a second tv.
But I’m worried about an out dated HDMI in a year.
How significant is it the upgrade to 2.1?
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post #10 of 66 Old 01-21-2018, 08:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mladams922 View Post
So now that the 2018 LG TVs have been announced I'm trying to make a decision. Do I wait for the 2018 OLEDs or get one of the 2017 OLEDs at a discount? So I thought I'd see what others on the forum are thinking. Anyone have any thoughts?
My opinion is if you see the LG 8 announcement and can't see any use of the extra stuff added to the LG 8 opposed to the LG 7, go with a LG 7 for the better price.

The features added to the LG 8 are novelty features and maybe will be plagued with an "always-on" smooth gradation and noise reduction feature that will not be wanted if you are a videophile "purist" -meaning, you want to see 1:1 faithful reproduction of video without any altering processing.
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post #11 of 66 Old 01-21-2018, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mladams922 View Post
So now that the 2018 LG TVs have been announced I'm trying to make a decision. Do I wait for the 2018 OLEDs or get one of the 2017 OLEDs at a discount? So I thought I'd see what others on the forum are thinking. Anyone have any thoughts?
Tough one. I have a B7 since thanksgiving. I'm somewhat unhappy with the uniformity and the motion kind of bugs me and the tone mapping makes HDR looks too dark on some TV shows and movies. But still, it'd be really hard for me to go back to my old LCD.

If I had a really good TV to go back to, I would wait for the C8. Here are the reasons

1/ new processor and hopefully improvement in motion handling. It will have black frame insertion. First impression at CES was BFI works well without noticeably dimming the picture. Better upscaling and handling of poor quality source ie cable is also a possibility.

2/ possibly better uniformity. The 2017 sets took a step back. The 2018 sets hopefully get back to square one.

3/ there's a possibility that the 77" would drop to $5K, which is right around my tolerance threshold. I was watching blade runner and was unexpectedly.... underwhelmed. As good as the picture is on OLED, it's just so ... small, especially with the wide aspect ratio. I saw it originally in Dolby Cinema; that was an experience. On 65", it felt like TV and kind of pointless. Maybe I'd feel that way in the 77" too. Hopefully less.

4/ larger red subpixel. More resistant to burn in and maybe a little brighter?

5/ other stuff I forgot.

There's also the autocal thing which is good if you want to have your set calibrated. Google assistant? I don't care.

These are all on paper at this point and may all seem like small details. But remember, all complaints about the current sets are small details. OLED is very good already so improvements will be small. But if the little improvements fix what bug you, then it's a huge deal.
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post #12 of 66 Old 01-21-2018, 11:51 AM
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Tough one. I have a B7 since thanksgiving. I'm somewhat unhappy with the uniformity and the motion kind of bugs me and the tone mapping makes HDR looks too dark on some TV shows and movies. But still, it'd be really hard for me to go back to my old LCD.

If I had a really good TV to go back to, I would wait for the C8. Here are the reasons

1/ new processor and hopefully improvement in motion handling. It will have black frame insertion. First impression at CES was BFI works well without noticeably dimming the picture. Better upscaling and handling of poor quality source ie cable is also a possibility.

2/ possibly better uniformity. The 2017 sets took a step back. The 2018 sets hopefully get back to square one.

3/ there's a possibility that the 77" would drop to $5K, which is right around my tolerance threshold. I was watching blade runner and was unexpectedly.... underwhelmed. As good as the picture is on OLED, it's just so ... small, especially with the wide aspect ratio. I saw it originally in Dolby Cinema; that was an experience. On 65", it felt like TV and kind of pointless. Maybe I'd feel that way in the 77" too. Hopefully less.

4/ larger red subpixel. More resistant to burn in and maybe a little brighter?

5/ other stuff I forgot.

There's also the autocal thing which is good if you want to have your set calibrated. Google assistant? I don't care.

These are all on paper at this point and may all seem like small details. But remember, all complaints about the current sets are small details. OLED is very good already so improvements will be small. But if the little improvements fix what bug you, then it's a huge deal.
I totally agree! I really think the 8 series will be noticeably better than the 7. Only reason to get the 7 is if you need a tv NOW.

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post #13 of 66 Old 01-22-2018, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a G6 and Considering an 2018 as a second tv.
But I’m worried about an out dated HDMI in a year.
How significant is it the upgrade to 2.1?
From everything I've read HDMI 2.1 isn't going to be a deal breaking update. There aren't that many manufactures that support it as a source and none that support it on the TV itself. The Xbox One X supports it as a source but there's nothing to really view it on. It will be great for gamers with the updated frame rate support but if you're not a gamer you might not even use HDMI 2.1. It adds a higher bandwidth to the spec but there's nothing that uses it yet and nothing really will use it until high frame rate movies start coming out, or we start using it for 8k video, which is likely to be a very long way off. So I wouldn't worry about HDMI 2.1. By the time it's available on most sets you'll probably be looking to upgrade your TV anyway.
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post #14 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 11:25 AM
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4/ larger red subpixel. More resistant to burn in and maybe a little brighter?
Not sure I understand this one. Do you have a source? I thought in contemporary WRGB all LG OLED subpixels are white, with 3/4 having a color filter. Therefore all degradation and aging should be identical, regardless of color.

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post #15 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 11:32 AM
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Might as well wait and see what the 2018 models offer. The 2017 models will still be available through at least mid summer.

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post #16 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 11:34 AM
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Content delivery from your daily sources won't be upgrading so how much better will it be to spend an extra 1K or more to get it now? Without better content the bells and whistles are not worth it. Prices don't fall into a responsible level until late summer and at that point you don't want last years anyway. So it's wait or get now, nows prices are as low as they will get so why not save now? CPlasma says "improvements always comes later as it never ends, so why not enjoy now vs always waiting for the next big thing". What if tomorrow never comes.....

I would just find it for less now and enjoy it, it's one great TV and there are far and few disappointed folks. (the sky is not falling)

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post #17 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 11:38 AM
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With most electronics, if you wait, they will add more features and become cheaper for a similar product. If you follow that guideline and wait for newer, better and cheaper, you will never buy anything.
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post #18 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 11:52 AM
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With most electronics, if you wait, they will add more features and become cheaper for a similar product. If you follow that guideline and wait for newer, better and cheaper, you will never buy anything.
Exactly, the only caveat I would add is not buying something that was just released (birthed), like a new TV technology such as "BOLED" (Better OLED) and it costs $20,000 for a 65" set but hey it looks like a piece of art. That is worth waiting for a better price

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post #19 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 12:52 PM
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January: Next version teased, hope it fixes flaws.
Aprilish: New, exciting, overpriced. Puff reviews hype it.
November: Best price, but flaws discovered as more are sold and detailed reviews echo forum complaints, might as well wait a couple months to see...
January: Next version teased, hope it fixes flaws.
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post #20 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post
Not sure I understand this one. Do you have a source? I thought in contemporary WRGB all LG OLED subpixels are white, with 3/4 having a color filter. Therefore all degradation and aging should be identical, regardless of color.
Right beginning, wrong ending.

All the sub-pixels start out white. 3/4 have a color filter.

However, the underlying material is still present in the "white". Each white is made up of R + G + B.

And to make matters worse, the color you see will differentially age pixels that use it vs. those that don't. So there is a red pixel on 24/7. Yes, it's a "white pixel" made up of light primaries, but it's the only pixel on. So it gets driven all day and night. It ages, the adjacent pixel doesn't.

The only way all degradation would be equal is if all pixels were blaring at 100% all of the time. Otherwise, subpixels will age differently.

Now, why does the "red being bigger" matter? The answer is that it appears making red requires driving the corresponding subpixels pretty hard, and the result has been some clear aging issues on reds (the subpixels, which start out white, but you see as red through the filter). By using larger "red" subpixels, you can get as much light with a gentler "drive" and they should last longer.

@fafrd will show you a somewhat linear formula for what the math is, but I'm not as certain as he is that all else is being held constant. Any change in the emitter materials could change that math also he is approximating the area gain. His numbers may very well be correct; I'm just less certain.

The magic of white pixels has never been about aging/burn-in. It has always been about the fact there is no need to "pattern" OLED emitter material. And an inability to pattern said material is why Samsung doesn't make OLED TVs.
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post #21 of 66 Old 01-23-2018, 02:38 PM
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Right beginning, wrong ending.

All the sub-pixels start out white. 3/4 have a color filter.

However, the underlying material is still present in the "white". Each white is made up of R + G + B.

And to make matters worse, the color you see will differentially age pixels that use it vs. those that don't. So there is a red pixel on 24/7. Yes, it's a "white pixel" made up of light primaries, but it's the only pixel on. So it gets driven all day and night. It ages, the adjacent pixel doesn't.

The only way all degradation would be equal is if all pixels were blaring at 100% all of the time. Otherwise, subpixels will age differently.

Now, why does the "red being bigger" matter? The answer is that it appears making red requires driving the corresponding subpixels pretty hard, and the result has been some clear aging issues on reds (the subpixels, which start out white, but you see as red through the filter). By using larger "red" subpixels, you can get as much light with a gentler "drive" and they should last longer.

@fafrd will show you a somewhat linear formula for what the math is, but I'm not as certain as he is that all else is being held constant. Any change in the emitter materials could change that math also he is approximating the area gain. His numbers may very well be correct; I'm just less certain.

The magic of white pixels has never been about aging/burn-in. It has always been about the fact there is no need to "pattern" OLED emitter material. And an inability to pattern said material is why Samsung doesn't make OLED TVs.
Thanks! Do you have a source for this? I googled around and can’t seem to find anything. Your explanation makes sense though.

And can you talk more about what you mean by “pattern”? Why would this affect Samsung and not LG?
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post #22 of 66 Old 01-24-2018, 04:43 AM
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I would wait until 2019 and get HDMI 2.1 ports. I know they wouldn't be much use right now, but not buying based on this is foolish. A few years ago, people said not to buy a UHD TV, there's no content. The extra pixels don't matter. Bla bla bla. Now there's lots of content and the picture looks better. There's absolutely no downside to getting HDMI 2.1 over 2.0.
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post #23 of 66 Old 01-24-2018, 07:05 AM
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I've been playing the waiting game since 2015. Always something horribly wrong (with relativity to the unit price) with every model each year, banding, vignetting, near black uniformity and so on. I just do not want to play the panel lottery involved in 2017 models. The pictures showing 5% near black slides are absolutely horrifying, so that leaves 2017 panels out for me. 2018 models can, in theory, support the extra features in HDMI 2.1 like variable refresh rate (at least samsung does) and dynamic metadata with HDMI 2.0. The 2018 models also have black frame insertion so they have higher motion resolution. Maybe the wait is over, for me at least, in a couple of months when we get full in depth reviews and owners posting some slides. So I'd wait a bit if I were you and I will wait as I am me. I can't afford to buy a unit every year so this will be an investment for at least 5 years. My current projector is over 12 years old (yay for 720p).
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post #24 of 66 Old 01-24-2018, 08:08 AM
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I've been playing the waiting game since 2015. Always something horribly wrong (with relativity to the unit price) with every model each year, banding, vignetting, near black uniformity and so on. I just do not want to play the panel lottery involved in 2017 models. The pictures showing 5% near black slides are absolutely horrifying, so that leaves 2017 panels out for me. 2018 models can, in theory, support the extra features in HDMI 2.1 like variable refresh rate (at least samsung does) and dynamic metadata with HDMI 2.0. The 2018 models also have black frame insertion so they have higher motion resolution. Maybe the wait is over, for me at least, in a couple of months when we get full in depth reviews and owners posting some slides. So I'd wait a bit if I were you and I will wait as I am me. I can't afford to buy a unit every year so this will be an investment for at least 5 years. My current projector is over 12 years old (yay for 720p).
Agreed buying a new set every two years is not ideal, but I almost suspect LG and others build these factors into sales longevity. So the likeness of a perfect set is most likely not anytime soon. So I expect banding to continue for longer until the entire panel is redesigned and the lottery has been the case for years. So if it ends with the 2018 model that is big news but I won't hold my breath.

Pricing will not be palatable until late summer and if it turns out to be the "perfect set" pricing might not decline until after that.

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post #25 of 66 Old 01-24-2018, 09:59 AM
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Appears the 2018 significantly improved some of the problems people here seem to spend a lot of time complaining about (motion etc), it will become available within a couple of months, and you seem to have the funds to afford it.

If in that position and I bought the cheaper one I'd probably be kicking myself pretty hard every time I saw one of those issues on the set I just bought. It would not be pretty. I know sets will always be getting better but these changes seem significant and the time to wait not very long.

The only question I'd have is how long I'd wait for the price to drop, and that would be largely determined by how much disposable income I had and what LGs opening price for it was (the prices seem to have been going down on each new offering so the wait time might not be that long at all).

Whatever you decide good luck on it.



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Right now I have a 55" Samsung LED from 6 or so years ago - UN55C8000. It's a good set but I recently upgraded my receiver to a Denon AVR-X2400H to get ready for 4k HDR, I'm eyeing the Xbox One X or a blu-ray player that supports Dolby Vision, and I have the money - I'm just itching to pull the trigger! I want to get that upgrade in video quality to match the great sound I have now! Plus the 55" set is a little small for the room.
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post #26 of 66 Old 01-24-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tommyy2 View Post
A
The only question I'd have is how long I'd wait for the price to drop, and that would be largely determined by how much disposable income I had and what LGs opening price for it was (the prices seem to have been going down on each new offering so the wait time might not be that long at all).
It's only a matter of time where LG does the same to TV's, looks like ones tax break will be spent on paying for the cost on imports. The bright light might be that your 2020 OLED set is made in the USA

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/24/news...hp-toplead-dom

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post #27 of 66 Old 01-24-2018, 05:43 PM
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Thanks! Do you have a source for this? I googled around and can’t seem to find anything. Your explanation makes sense though.

And can you talk more about what you mean by “pattern”? Why would this affect Samsung and not LG?
There are probably 500 posts on this in the obscenely long OLED Tech thread here. The search is terrible to find them. Start reading in 2013? I wish I had a better idea.

Sure, "patterning"....

The LG OLED lays down the OLED material in a continuous "sheet" by vaporizing it and letting it settle on the substrate. There is no need to make pixels with it. Pixels are made solely by building transistors/electrodes on the backplane and a color filter to create the R/G/B/W subpixels. OLED is inherently transparent so when you stack R/G/B and excite it, you get white photons from every backplane pixel. The color filters handle the rest.

In a Samsung RGB OLED, each subpixel is red green or blue. To make them work as subpixels you need each to be a fairly precisely shaped hunk of OLED material (no color filter here, so you have to emit the color directly). To get those shapes you have to vaporize the OLED on one side of a screen and let it coalesce on the other side. This "mask" as it is called is how Samsung makes its mobile OLED displays, which are nearly universally applauded as outstanding.

But to make a 55-inch OLED this way you have one of two problems, neither solvable by Samsung -- nor anyone

1) Either you make a giant mask that is so rigid it doesn't sag in the middle allowing it to exist a fraction of an inch from the substrate so you can lay down near perfect pixels of each other (no such mask can be made on earth due to a lack of appropriate materials and the irritating presence of gravity)

OR

2) You move a smaller mask in precise registration so that you can lay down many OLED subpixel grids that are perfectly aligned with the previous ones. This *can* be done, but you have two hideous choices... terrible yield, or -- most prominently -- really really slow non-economical production.

This is why Samsung abandoned OLED TV.
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There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #28 of 66 Old 01-25-2018, 12:58 AM
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Tough one. I have a B7 since thanksgiving. I'm somewhat unhappy with the uniformity and the motion kind of bugs me and the tone mapping makes HDR looks too dark on some TV shows and movies. But still, it'd be really hard for me to go back to my old LCD.

If I had a really good TV to go back to, I would wait for the C8. Here are the reasons

1/ new processor and hopefully improvement in motion handling. It will have black frame insertion. First impression at CES was BFI works well without noticeably dimming the picture. Better upscaling and handling of poor quality source ie cable is also a possibility.

2/ possibly better uniformity. The 2017 sets took a step back. The 2018 sets hopefully get back to square one.

3/ there's a possibility that the 77" would drop to $5K, which is right around my tolerance threshold. I was watching blade runner and was unexpectedly.... underwhelmed. As good as the picture is on OLED, it's just so ... small, especially with the wide aspect ratio. I saw it originally in Dolby Cinema; that was an experience. On 65", it felt like TV and kind of pointless. Maybe I'd feel that way in the 77" too. Hopefully less.

4/ larger red subpixel. More resistant to burn in and maybe a little brighter?

5/ other stuff I forgot.

There's also the autocal thing which is good if you want to have your set calibrated. Google assistant? I don't care.

These are all on paper at this point and may all seem like small details. But remember, all complaints about the current sets are small details. OLED is very good already so improvements will be small. But if the little improvements fix what bug you, then it's a huge deal.
Trying to find info on the larger red subpixel for 2018...any links...is this a fact?
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post #29 of 66 Old 01-25-2018, 01:14 AM
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There are probably 500 posts on this in the obscenely long OLED Tech thread here. The search is terrible to find them. Start reading in 2013? I wish I had a better idea.

Sure, "patterning"....

The LG OLED lays down the OLED material in a continuous "sheet" by vaporizing it and letting it settle on the substrate. There is no need to make pixels with it. Pixels are made solely by building transistors/electrodes on the backplane and a color filter to create the R/G/B/W subpixels. OLED is inherently transparent so when you stack R/G/B and excite it, you get white photons from every backplane pixel. The color filters handle the rest.

In a Samsung RGB OLED, each subpixel is red green or blue. To make them work as subpixels you need each to be a fairly precisely shaped hunk of OLED material (no color filter here, so you have to emit the color directly). To get those shapes you have to vaporize the OLED on one side of a screen and let it coalesce on the other side. This "mask" as it is called is how Samsung makes its mobile OLED displays, which are nearly universally applauded as outstanding.

But to make a 55-inch OLED this way you have one of two problems, neither solvable by Samsung -- nor anyone

1) Either you make a giant mask that is so rigid it doesn't sag in the middle allowing it to exist a fraction of an inch from the substrate so you can lay down near perfect pixels of each other (no such mask can be made on earth due to a lack of appropriate materials and the irritating presence of gravity)

OR

2) You move a smaller mask in precise registration so that you can lay down many OLED subpixel grids that are perfectly aligned with the previous ones. This *can* be done, but you have two hideous choices... terrible yield, or -- most prominently -- really really slow non-economical production.

This is why Samsung abandoned OLED TV.
I was under the impression Samsung abandoned OLEDs because of the inherent shorter lifespan of the organic technology and it's tendency to burn in. Issues LG was able to minimize...somewhat...by introducing a white subpixel...

"LG uses the WOLED (White OLED) or WRGB (White RED Green Blue) technology for producing OLED displays. This adds a fourth white subpixel to the RGB subpixels. The RGB pixels have a filter, but the whites have not."

"The pixels of an OLED can be completely turned on or off. Because of this, OLED displays are completely black when turned off. OLEDS can therefore produce very high contrasts and the images are very bright and sharp. Also, the colors and the response time of the display are very fast due to the OLED technology. Because OLEDS do not require backlight, the displays are very thin. There is an example of an LG OLED display with a thickness of only 1 mm.

"The image of an OLED is beautiful. However, OLEDS also have disadvantages. Because OLED screens contain organic material, their lifespan is shorter than LCD displays. Additionally, many OLED displays get burn-ins after showing the same image for a long time. After a burn-in, the image stays on the screen even after showing another image."

http://www.sky-technology.eu/en/disp...-displays.html

Perhaps there were numerous reasons...
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post #30 of 66 Old 01-25-2018, 01:37 AM
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Trying to find info on the larger red subpixel for 2018...any links...is this a fact?
Yes:

https://translate.google.de/translat...html&sandbox=1

Quote:
I was under the impression Samsung abandoned OLEDs because of the inherent shorter lifespan of the organic technology and it's tendency to burn in.
No, that´s only a PR campaign to promote QLED-LCD.
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