Samsung to come back to OLED TV? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Samsung to come back to OLED TV?

Holy Molly! It's all over the Korean press now. Apparently, Samsung heir Lee Jae-yong, soon after his release from prison for his bribery charges, throw a fit at Samsung Display for poorly performing, market-wise, QLED TVs and wants OLED TV production to resume.

As for how they are going to do that since they still don't have any way to pattern OLED TV nor any progress on IGZO equivalent backplane, I'm not sure but one way they are going at is by utilizing QDCF.

http://www.etnews.com/20180220000344?SNS=00001



"Samsung is said to be developing a new type of TV called QD-OLED that emits light instead of relying on backlight. It's a combination of Quantum Dot and OLED.

While their previous QD TVs have used LCDs with LED backlights, QD-OLED will use OLED as a backlight.

Samsung's QD-OLED uses blue OLED as a backlight. To make colors for Red and Green subpixels, Blue OLED subpixel will be left alone while QD color filters will be put on top of Red and Green subpixels. This way, they can manufacture a self-emissive OLED that also has improved color space.

QD-OLED will allow for not only forgoing LCDs for thickness/weight improvement, it will also allow for not needing a QDEF, further reducing need for components. It will also allow for better viewing angle and response time.

Right now, the biggest challenge is controlling light contamination from blue OLED when placing Red/Green QDCF on top. Many experts believe this is Samsung's way of coming back to OLED TV market.

"So far Samsung has scoffed their competition's OLED TV efforts as not a true OLED TV as it uses color filters and white pixels. So, their final goal was in creating EL-QLED, but difficulties with production must have changed their mind."
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post #2 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 11:42 AM
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Neat. I wonder how the viewing angles will be on that system compared to the method used by LG. Hopefully very similar.

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post #3 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post
Holy Molly! It's all over the Korean press now. Apparently, Samsung heir Lee Jae-yong, soon after his release from prison for his bribery charges, throw a fit at Samsung Display for poorly performing, market-wise, QLED TVs and wants OLED TV production to resume.

As for how they are going to do that since they still don't have any way to pattern OLED TV nor any progress on IGZO equivalent backplane, I'm not sure but one way they are going at is by utilizing QDCF.

http://www.etnews.com/20180220000344?SNS=00001



"Samsung is said to be developing a new type of TV called QD-OLED that emits light instead of relying on backlight. It's a combination of Quantum Dot and OLED.

While their previous QD TVs have used LCDs with LED backlights, QD-OLED will use OLED as a backlight.

Samsung's QD-OLED uses blue OLED as a backlight. To make colors for Red and Green subpixels, Blue OLED subpixel will be left alone while QD color filters will be put on top of Red and Green subpixels. This way, they can manufacture a self-emissive OLED that also has improved color space.

QD-OLED will allow for not only forgoing LCDs for thickness/weight improvement, it will also allow for not needing a QDEF, further reducing need for components. It will also allow for better viewing angle and response time.

Right now, the biggest challenge is controlling light contamination from blue OLED when placing Red/Green QDCF on top. Many experts believe this is Samsung's way of coming back to OLED TV market.

"So far Samsung has scoffed their competition's OLED TV efforts as not a true OLED TV as it uses color filters and white pixels. So, their final goal was in creating EL-QLED, but difficulties with production must have changed their mind."
This is actually a very attractive idea and BOLED+RG-QDCF has several advantages over WOLED (or even WOLED+RGB-QDCF):

-No blue QDCF avoids the problem currently limiting 'true' RGB QDCF (no long-lifetime blue QDCF yet).

-Conversion of Blue OLED light into red and green through QDCF likely means that all colors will have more similar efficiency and hence more similar aging rates than is the case for WOLED.

-BOLED+RG-QDCF can deliver higher brightness than WOLED while remaining a true RGB display (no white subpixel) so color volume should noticably be higher.

-BOLED, like WOLED, avoids the problem of patterning OLED materials and likely has fewer OLED layers/processibg steps than WOLED, so manufacturing costs and yields should actially be incrementally better than WOLED (though the QDCF color filters will cost more than the conventional color filters used by WOLED).

This is a smart move by Samsung - it leverages the work they have pioneered on QDCF to pivot to a WOLED-like BOLED architecture that will eventually leapfrog what LG has succeeded to do with WOLED once they solve the issues of blue light contamination and get manufactiring ramped-up to LG WOLED-like levels.
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post #4 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 12:05 PM
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Seeing what if any info I can get...

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post #5 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 12:26 PM
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This isnt anything definitive but the first step to it happening is exactly a rumor like this. We'll have to see whether any other sources pick up the story.

Google Translate warning.

https://t.co/GEhh3WoObd

Quote:
[Exclusive]
Lee Jae-yong "OLED TV live again"

Financial News Enter: 2018.02.20 17:20 Revision: 2018.02.20 17:23

QLED TV's Samsung, virtually OLED
This vice chairman 'one point instruction' .. OLED TV to re-enter

"Samsung's entry into organic light-emitting diode (OLED) TV is only a matter of timing, and it will happen someday." (Han Sang-beom, LG Display Vice Chairman)

In 2016, a vice-chairman's statement is likely to come true. Samsung Electronics decided to review the OLED TV business from its original point of view. This means that the OLED TV business, which had been discontinued, will be restarted.

This is in accordance with Lee Jae-yong, vice chairman of Samsung Electronics' one point instruction.
OLED panels are distinguished from liquid crystal display (LCD) panels that emit light from the back side of the panel to create images. Samsung Electronics has been using OLEDs only in smartphones and TVs have been sticking to LCDs.

According to the business community on 20th, the vice chairman who was recently released received reports on the current status of each business division. The vice chairman is said to have issued an order to "review the OLED TV business", especially regarding the TV business. Samsung Electronics' equipment supplier said, "We have been inquiring about Samsung OLED TV related equipment."

The vice-chairman's instructions are for Samsung TV, which is becoming more and more established. Samsung is still the strongest player in the world TV market for 11 consecutive years. But when I look at the inner film, I feel a sense of crisis. Samsung has boasted more than half of its market share in the 'gardens' premium market, but now it is backed up by Sony and LG Electronics, which introduced OLED TVs. Although there are differences among market research companies, Samsung also recorded a share of less than 10% in the market in the fourth quarter of last year, more than 2500 dollars. The premium market is 'the way to live' chosen by domestic companies against the low price of China.

Samsung Electronics is now introducing QLED TV, which has evolved LCD technology, as its flagship product. Last year, I switched from SUHD to QLED and tried to change the atmosphere. However, with the emphasis on the limit of thickness and flexibility (flexing), there is a strong voice in the inside to admit defeat.

Samsung has also made OLED TV. At the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in 2013, Samsung released 55-inch curved OLED TVs at the same time as LG Electronics. But Samsung has given up on mass production since then. Unlike smartphones, TVs that reproduce for a long time are problematic because the burn-in phenomenon that does not disappear is the image, and the life expectancy is ten years. Instead of OLED, what we have chosen is the quantum dot (quantum dot).

On the other hand, LG has persistently compensated for Samsung's shortcomings with OLEDs. Burnin has been improved with his own algorithms to ensure that there is no problem with day-to-day viewing, and lifetime has been raised to more than 10 years (8 hours per day). Price, which is the most important factor in TV selection, continues to decline. Thanks to OLED TV, LG Electronics recorded the highest sales last year.

However, Samsung is unlikely to switch to QLED and turn it into an OLED. Immediately next month, a new product QLED TV is scheduled to be released this year, and a huge investment is underway in the research for the evolution of QLED. The evolution of micro LED, the next generation technology that has just been released, is also a variable. Another challenge is to avoid large-scale OLED panels and avoid patent disputes.

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post #6 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
This isnt anything definitive but the first step to it happening is exactly a rumor like this. We'll have to see whether any other sources pick up the story.

Google Translate warning.

https://t.co/GEhh3WoObd
I was wondering whether BOLED alone gets around LG's Kodak-WOLED patents...

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Another challenge is to avoid large-scale OLED panels and avoid patent disputes.
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post #7 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 02:11 PM
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Seems like Samsung just acknowledged they have nothing to compare with OLED TV right now.
They plan to develop something in the future but..................
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post #8 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 03:20 PM
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Any guess on when an actual product could be available? 3 years? If ever.
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post #9 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 03:36 PM
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I'll believe it when I see it. I would think this is at least 2 years away and probably more like 3-5 years away, if it ever happens at all. By then, LG could have moved to native RGB OLED, and be producing them cheaply. Even if still WOLED, they will likely be producing them very cheaply. BTW, I agree that WOLED is not true OLED, but neither is QD-OLED. Until we get to true native RGB emitters with no color filters (or QD filters), we haven't arrived at where we (well at least myself) want to be. Whether it's OLED or Micro LED doesn't matter, but I'm waiting for native RGB before I jump in unless my Plasma fails and I'm forced to by a set before they exist.
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post #10 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 04:15 PM
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I don't see how the presence of color filters alone invalidate WOLED TVs as being < OLED. The self-emissive factor is still there no matter what, which is the primary transmissive differentiator.
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post #11 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 04:44 PM
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[quote=RWetmore;55727684]I'll believe it when I see it. I would think this is at least 2 years away and probably more like 3-5 years away, if it ever happens at all.
[/b]

As far as having an industrialized tchnology, 2 years is realistic but 3-5 years is not. Samung is the world's largest producer of OLEDs, they have already produced 55" RGB OLEDs (which failed because of patterning of large-area RGB, which is not needed for manufacturing BOLED), and BOLED is a far easier technology to manufacture.

Having manufacturing capacity to manufacture millions of large-screen BOLEDs could take longer, but Samsung is apparently searching for new applications to make use of their OLED overcapicity (and TV is at the top of that list): https://www.oled-info.com/will-samsu...under-utilized

Quote:
By then, LG could have moved to native RGB OLED, and be producing them cheaply.
Sorry, but that's wrong.

By 2020, or 2021 (and through 2023), LG will be producing WOLED on 10.5G motherglass, delivering 65" WOLED panels for less than half if what they cost today (8 per 10.5G sheet versus 3 per 8.5G sheet) and 75" WOLED panels for close to 1/3 of what 77" WOLED panels cost today (6 per 10.55G panel versus 2 77" WOLEDs per 85G sheet).

Oh, and then there the 88" WOLED LG should be introducing next year...

Quote:
Even if still WOLED, they will likely be producing them very cheaply.
Yes, by the time Samsung rolls out their BOLED+QDCF TVs, LG will likely have ramped their new 10.5G manufacturing line and will be producing 65" and 75" WOLEDs for far less than it costs today. So if Samsung is still on 8.5G while LG is on 105G, Samsung is going to be at a severe cost disadvantage at anything larger than 55" (up to 75").

So any annohncements by Samsung about investing in a new 10.5G OLED manufacturing lines can be seen as a major conmitment to close this cost gap before it becomes an insurmountable problem.

Quote:
BTW, I agree that WOLED is not true OLED, but neither is QD-OLED. Until we get to true native RGB emitters with no color filters (or QD filters), we haven't arrived at where we (well at least myself) want to be. Whether it's OLED or Micro LED doesn't matter, but I'm waiting for native RGB before I jump in unless my Plasma fails and I'm forced to by a set before they exist.
The light emitted by true electro-luminescent OLED and by opto-luminescent QDCF-based color converters/filters is identcal, so from that point of view WOLED+QDCF or BOLED+QDCF is 'true OLED'. On the other hand, this reference to 'leakage' does indicate one way in which WOLED or BOLED + QDCF could fall short of 'true' RGB OLED.

If the quantum dot color filters are perfect and block all of the incoming light that excites them, it would be impossible to tell the difference between them and 'true OLED'. But if the QDCF is not perfect and allows some blue (or white) light to pass through the filter, that will degrade saturation, gamut, and color volume in ways that would likely be perceptible.
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post #12 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
I don't see how the presence of color filters alone invalidate WOLED TVs as being < OLED. The self-emissive factor is still there no matter what, which is the primary transmissive differentiator.
I was in total agreement with you until I saw the reference to 'leakage'.

If QDCF color filters block (or convert) all of the incoming light, it's hard to point to any substantitive difference between QDCF-based pseudo-OLED and 'true OLED.'

But if those color filters allow some of the excitation lumens (white or blue) to escape, that could impact PQ in a manner that would be discernable from true RGB OLED...
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post #13 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 05:59 PM
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This is a seemingly important WOLED/WRGB patent that belongs to UDC. It sure seems like this is (1) how LG makes TVs work (2) explicitly references white.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...er))+AND+kodak)

Here's another UDC WOLED/WRGB patent. Again, the reference to white is clear

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...er))+AND+kodak)

This, however, is an original Kodak patent that explicitly mentions white in the patent title "White light tandem OLED display with filters":

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...er))+AND+kodak)

This looks like a core Kodak patent and it absolutely explicitly mentions white.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...y=PN%2F6903378

My search is not exhaustive and I am not a lawyer of any kind, let alone an IP lawyer but it sure as heck seems the Kodak patents and subsequent related filings by UDC (which honestly don't strike me as likely to survive a legal challenge, but I don't know) all reference white explicitly.

A blue OLED with a quantum-dot color filter would seem to steer clear of the existing patents. And it has some nice performance characteristic potentials as identified by fafrd above.

Everyone -- and I mean everyone -- who likes video should want Samsung to aggressively pursue this idea, though it will be years before it can compete with LG on price.
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post #14 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 06:55 PM
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I like this because it could drive WOLED prices even lower. LG doesn't have a real contender right now so prices will stay a little high.
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Last edited by losservatore; 02-23-2018 at 06:32 AM.
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post #15 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 07:09 PM
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What actual difference is there between WOLED and true RGB OLED? I mean in terms of what difference you would see with your eyes.
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post #16 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destiny2 View Post
What actual difference is there between WOLED and true RGB OLED? I mean in terms of what difference you would see with your eyes.

More saturate colors ,So WOLED Colors look a little less saturate next to an RGB OLED.

Last edited by losservatore; 02-20-2018 at 07:28 PM.
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post #17 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
This is a seemingly important WOLED/WRGB patent that belongs to UDC. It sure seems like this is (1) how LG makes TVs work (2) explicitly references white.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...er))+AND+kodak)

Here's another UDC WOLED/WRGB patent. Again, the reference to white is clear

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...er))+AND+kodak)

This, however, is an original Kodak patent that explicitly mentions white in the patent title "White light tandem OLED display with filters":

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...er))+AND+kodak)

This looks like a core Kodak patent and it absolutely explicitly mentions white.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...y=PN%2F6903378

My search is not exhaustive and I am not a lawyer of any kind, let alone an IP lawyer but it sure as heck seems the Kodak patents and subsequent related filings by UDC (which honestly don't strike me as likely to survive a legal challenge, but I don't know) all reference white explicitly.

A blue OLED with a quantum-dot color filter would seem to steer clear of the existing patents. And it has some nice performance characteristic potentials as identified by fafrd above.

Everyone -- and I mean everyone -- who likes video should want Samsung to aggressively pursue this idea, though it will be years before it can compete with LG on price.
Well my reading of those find they all involve white OLED (or in one cases white made up of at least 2 different colors) and optical filters, while Samsung appears to want to use QD to convert blue light to red or green light (so not optical filtering, bur rather conversion), and want to use blue OLED light, not white, and a single color, not two. I saw nothing in any of those four that what was described for Samsung would infringe on. Looks interesting. Also some of them explicitly talk about RGBW with four subpixels, not the three Samsung would have.

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Hartlove in a 2016 hdguru interview
..for example, we can use a blue OLED back light and then in front of that blue light we can put selectively patterned red and green quantum dots.

https://hdguru.com/nanosys-sheds-lig...-dot-displays/
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post #19 of 216 Old 02-20-2018, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
I don't see how the presence of color filters alone invalidate WOLED TVs as being < OLED. The self-emissive factor is still there no matter what, which is the primary transmissive differentiator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destiny2 View Post
What actual difference is there between WOLED and true RGB OLED? I mean in terms of what difference you would see with your eyes.
If you take it literally, then WOLED actually is transmissive. Slightly less for the white sub-pixels. The R,G,B photons are transmitted though other OLED layers, color filters, and polarizers before finally making it to your eye. This is very different from a true emissive display like a plasma or CRT where there is nothing for photons emitted by the phosphors to transmit through before hitting your eye (well, maybe some clear glass in the front of the display).

The same problems of all transmissive displays apply to WOLED. Uniformity sucks because every layer that light has to pass through introduces some variation since it's basically impossible to create 100% uniform layers of any material. Each layer also scatters and blocks some light, thus decreasing brightness and efficiency. You also lose viewing angle performance depending on the depth of material the light has to travel.

WOLED is emissive only in the sense that it has per-pixel light control. I guess you could argue Samsung's mobile OLEDs are true emissive but they have crappy viewing angles compared to CRT/Plasma. Not sure if it's because of the non-uniform sub-pixel geometry or the depth of the sub-pixels. I would rather see Samsung focus on real emissive displays for the future - even if those are decades away. Last thing we need is another LG WOLED quality type product.
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post #20 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 02:13 AM
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So samsung is like [email protected]@t they are all over the place? QLED,Micro LED and now? Japan has stated ink jet printing of OLED panels,so samsung is going to come up with another dead end like QLED?
Wait! samsung has come out with a new tech in 2018! IT'S CALLED FALD QLED! WOW!

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post #21 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
So samsung is like [email protected]@t they are all over the place? QLED,Micro LED and now? Japan has stated ink jet printing of OLED panels,so samsung is going to come up with another dead end like QLED?
Wait! samsung has come out with a new tech in 2018! IT'S CALLED FALD QLED! WOW!
Yeah, they really are all over the place. Their TVs are decent, at least the higher end ones but they are spending too much time mareketing and not enough time implementing FALD and other critical techs to make their TVs better. The Sony sets at like every price level are considerably better as far as LCDs go. Sony does edge lighting better than Samsung too.

The more OLED players the better but I’m not sure Samsung knows what the hell they are doing.... lol.

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post #22 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 05:13 AM
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I think Samsung can pull this off.

Their R&D budget is huge...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...d-development/

It really depends on what they prioritize going forward.
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post #23 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 06:11 AM
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''Samsung Electronics has decided to review the OLED TV business from scratch. This means that the OLED TV business which has been discontinued will be restarted. The decision was made under an instruction of vice chairman Lee Jae-yong of Samsung Electronics. ''

..is a few hours old businesskorea article from a access denied page..

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post #24 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 06:24 AM
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This would be great news simply from the standpoint of competition. Having LGD not be the only maker of consumer OLED panels is awesome for consumers (if true)
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post #25 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 08:54 AM
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Samsung To Sell OLED TVs Again

Samsung To Sell OLED TVs Again

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#6bf885192d22

Shopping List:
TV: Samsung Q90R, or LG C9, or Sony ...
Blu-ray: Panasonic UB820, or Sony X800M, or Pioneer Elite LX500
Soundbar: Samsung Q90R, or Sennheiser Ambeo, or...
AVR and Speakers: Marantz 8012, or... and GE Triton Reference, or...
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post #26 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 09:15 AM
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Samsung To Sell OLED TVs Again
Doubt QD tech will prevent burn-in or fix motion handling issues. That's what's stopping the majority of people from either buying into OLED tech permanently, or using it as their main display.
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post #27 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kenoh89 View Post
Doubt QD tech will prevent burn-in or fix motion handling issues. That's what's stopping the majority of people from either buying into OLED tech permanently, or using it as their main display.
I agree. There is no reason to expect that to make a difference.

Except of course that having only one type of OLED material might help versus having two as LG does. Well it might help avoid specific colors being more likely to have burn in than others. It has no reason to make burn in not possible of course. It never seems to be the blue that burns in, so if Samsung only uses blue OLED material, they might handle it better. Maybe.
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post #28 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kenoh89 View Post
Doubt QD tech will prevent burn-in or fix motion handling issues. That's what's stopping the majority of people from either buying into OLED tech permanently, or using it as their main display.
hard to tell .....Micro LED it's interesting if Samsung can make it happen reliably without egregious pricing and marketing and provide 55-65" sizes along with the big panels.
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post #29 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 11:11 AM
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I was on fence about getting oled and somehow got some heavy image persistence on my LCD of the taskbar [took days to clear up]. Wasn't really gaming or watching TV just using as a monitor.
I know for a fact if I was on an OLED I would be f'ed. I know QLED isn't there yet but I keep hoping they will keep improving.

Though tbh, if they are still going to "stick it dolby" with HDR10+ its dead in the water. Mostly everyone who wants OLED wants movies and spending that much money and not getting Dolby Vision kind of defeats the purpose.
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Last edited by eqzitara; 02-21-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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post #30 of 216 Old 02-21-2018, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by eqzitara View Post
I was on fence about getting oled and somehow got some heavy image persistence on my LCD of the taskbar [took days to clear up]. Wasn't really gaming or watching TV just using as a monitor.
I know for a fact if I was on an OLED I would be f'ed. I know QLED isn't there yet but I keep hoping they will keep improving.

Though tbh, if they are still going to "stick it dolby" with HDR10+ its dead in the water. Mostly everyone who wants OLED wants movies and spending that much money and not getting Dolby Vision kind of defeats the purpose.
I wouldn't write off OLED like that honestly. I've had a B7 since August, I use it as a PC monitor ever single day, for hours. My PC isn't hooked up to a monitor, the only display for it is my OLED. I play games a ton too, but also do all of my browsing, music production, and general PC stuff on the OLED. Not even a hint of image retention ever, let alone burn in. I check a full red screen around once a week just to keep an eye on things, and still nothing. Thousands of hours on my display now.

Not saying it can't happen, but I have had zero issues on that front, and I LOVE the tv, easily the best one I've ever owned. So far I've tried the Sony 850D (terrible) and Samsung KS8000 (really great TV, I would still have that if my house hadn't been robbed, though the OLED is on a whole other level)
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