LG Officially Launches 2018 OLEDS and Super UHD TVs - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 980 Old 03-22-2018, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post
No offense intended but you are particularly "off task" on this board. This is just one classic example. Your comment/question is just not what this is about. How about trying to self-discipline and stay on point. It just does not help to jerk things off the track. Just a "coaching tip."
Noted. Thanks.
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post #752 of 980 Old 03-22-2018, 10:25 PM
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Noted. Thanks.
You are welcome. And thank you for your positive contributions. You are a very knowledgable member.
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post #753 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Below are the calibration reports from last night. ISF Expert Dark Room was a manual calibration done by myself. HDR/DV were done by AutoCal. Overall, I see AutoCal being a big hit for BB Calibrations or Enthusiasts who just don't want to take the time to get better results. I will be redoing the HDR/DV modes manually as I know I can achieve better results. Expect a full review of this TV, which will have comparison information against multiple competitor displays, in the coming days (I know my competition is watching ).
Thank you @D-Nice.

SDR seems ok anyways acceptable. Also Without calibration, color Checker have less higher dE's points, but seems to be necessary for correct gamma tracking and starting grayscale. Maybe blacks crushed OOTB vs post Calibration as usual?

HDR and DV they are not so good like SDR, and it need to be calibrated for improve those luminance dE's.

Thank you again to @D-Nice to share yours calibrations results

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post #754 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 12:22 PM
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No issues straight on and after 100 hours and a few compensation cycles, this C8 has the best 5% uniformity I’ve seen out of any LG OLED.
Sweet

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Wait for the review
So how are the Q9FN and 900F doing?
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post #755 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 02:00 PM
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8' viewing distance from a 65" screen is exactly the threshold where the chart shows the benefits of 4K begin to be percievable over 1080p...
That's why I sit 6' away from my 65". I can see the difference the moment Amazon prime video ramps up from 1080p to 4K.

Although, maybe the difference I'm seeing is mostly due to the subpar upscaling being taken out of the out of the equation.
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post #756 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 02:50 PM
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Agreed

I disagree. One word..... Kuro. And that was with less controls
OK, well that will remain an outlier in that it stood far above what had been available and took years to eclipse.
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post #757 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 02:54 PM
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I’m looking forward to more reviews and opinions on the motion of the new 2018 LGs vs the 2017 LGs.

I had a 2017 LG and switched to the A1E due to motion issues. I am really hoping LG improved their motion so I will have more options when I make the move to a 77” OLED. Not to mention that I miss the speed of WebOS, I basically don’t ever use Android on my Sony.

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post #758 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 03:47 PM
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Ok guys and gals,

I learned something today that I find to be a BIG concern with AutoCal at this point in time.....

Once you complete a LUT calibration, gamma and grayscale menu items will be grayed out and inaccessible. I don’t see this as a problem, just make sure you choose the gamma you want to live with. I say this because you will not be able to readjust or reset the Video mode unless you do a factory reset.

If for any reason your TV is factory reset (i.e. by accident or because of a botched firmware update), you will lose your LUT calibration and you will either have to get your calibrator back to redo your LUT calibration or do it yourself with the qualified CalMan software and meter. I did speak with Tyler and he said you can reload your original calibrated 3D LUT after doing a new 1D LUT and let the software recalculate the old 3D measurements to the new 1D measurements. However I’m not 100% sure that is a good idea. He also advised me that they are working on creating a tool that will allow customers to backup and restore encrypted versions of your LUT calibrations.

Until this tool is available, I personally will not be doing LUT level calibrations (manually adjusting the DDC controls of course) until the tooL is available. I can only hope other Calibrators do the same.
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post #759 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 03:52 PM
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Well, that's unfortunate.
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post #760 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Sweet

So how are the Q9FN and 900F doing?
Good well. Still prefer OLED.
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post #761 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Ok guys and gals,

I learned something today that I find to be a BIG concern with AutoCal at this point in time.....

Once you complete a LUT calibration, gamma and grayscale menu items will be grayed out and inaccessible. I don’t see this as a problem, just make sure you choose the gamma you want to live with. I say this because you will not be able to readjust or reset the Video mode unless you do a factory reset.

If for any reason your TV is factory reset (i.e. by accident or because of a botched firmware update), you will lose your LUT calibration and you will either have to get your calibrator back to redo your LUT calibration or do it yourself with the qualified CalMan software and meter. I did speak with Tyler and he said you can reload your original calibrated 3D LUT after doing a new 1D LUT and let the software recalculate the old 3D measurements to the new 1D measurements. However I’m not 100% sure that is a good idea. He also advised me that they are working on creating a tool that will allow customers to backup and restore encrypted versions of your LUT calibrations.

Until this tool is available, I personally will not be doing LUT level calibrations (manually adjusting the DDC controls of course) until the tooL is available. I can only hope other Calibrators do the same.
Not sure I understand. Say you do the calibration in expert dark picture mode. Are you saying you can't then change it to Another mode, say Cinema picture mode?

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post #762 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Not sure I understand. Say you do the calibration in expert dark picture mode. Are you saying you can't then you can't change it to Another mode, say Cinema picture mode?
No that is not what I’m saying. If you calibrate any of the available AutoCal modes via CalMan’s AutoCal feature, my post applies.
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post #763 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I have two observations:

1) We've come a long way. The pre-calibration ISF Expert Dark Mode is so close, an awful lot of people will be happy with that in a way they never should've been happy with out of the box settings in the past.

2) The post-calibration is insanely dead on in a way that was also very, very hard (if not impossible) to achieve a few years back on flat panels. This is a testament I think both to calibrator skill but also long-running calibrator cajoling of TV makers to allow for better control of settings...
these new models are great for consumers who want accurate PQ but bad for pro-calibrators who make a living doing this...
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post #764 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 05:27 PM
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No that is not what I’m saying. If you calibrate any of the available AutoCal modes via CalMan’s AutoCal feature, my post applies.
OK. I don't know enough about calibrating to follow along properly. Thank you.

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post #765 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
OK. I don't know enough about calibrating to follow along properly. Thank you.
What he means is that if you use Auto Cal on one of the modes that supports it, say ISF Dark, then some of the settings in that mode will become grayed out (inaccessible to change). You can still switch to any other mode (isf bright, technicolor, game, etc) and tweak the settings in each of them if you haven't Auto Caled them.

The only way to change the settings in the mode you Auto Caled is to do a factory reset of the whole tv (at which point you will lose the calibration and have to do it again).
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post #766 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jin-X View Post
What he means is that if you use Auto Cal on one of the modes that supports it, say ISF Dark, then some of the settings in that mode will become grayed out (inaccessible to change). You can still switch to any other mode (isf bright, technicolor, game, etc) and tweak the settings in each of them if you haven't Auto Caled them.

The only way to change the settings in the mode you Auto Caled is to do a factory reset of the whole tv (at which point you will lose the calibration and have to do it again).
Correct
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post #767 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jin-X View Post
What he means is that if you use Auto Cal on one of the modes that supports it, say ISF Dark, then some of the settings in that mode will become grayed out (inaccessible to change). You can still switch to any other mode (isf bright, technicolor, game, etc) and tweak the settings in each of them if you haven't Auto Caled them.

The only way to change the settings in the mode you Auto Caled is to do a factory reset of the whole tv (at which point you will lose the calibration and have to do it again).
Ah, got it. Thanks

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post #768 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 07:13 PM
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Good well. Still prefer OLED.
Can I ask you what makes you prefer OLED to this year's LCDs? Where are they still lacking?

Thanks
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post #769 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 11:04 PM
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post #771 of 980 Old 03-23-2018, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
No that is not what I’m saying. If you calibrate any of the available AutoCal modes via CalMan’s AutoCal feature, my post applies.
Is CMS & 21-pt greyscale/gamma calibration at least up to 2016/17 WOLED standards?

Is near-black gamma and linearity and gamma coming out of black using 21-pt controls improved versus 2017 and 2016?

I'll await your final review for the answers, but hopefully if you are abandoning autocal for CMS/21-pt controls (at least for now), your report will include some comments on near-black performance using standard CMS/21-pt controls within the 0-5% region. A graph or table or near-black 0-5% measurements would be fantastic...
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post #772 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Ok guys and gals,

I learned something today that I find to be a BIG concern with AutoCal at this point in time.....

Once you complete a LUT calibration, gamma and grayscale menu items will be grayed out and inaccessible. I don’t see this as a problem, just make sure you choose the gamma you want to live with. I say this because you will not be able to readjust or reset the Video mode unless you do a factory reset.

If for any reason your TV is factory reset (i.e. by accident or because of a botched firmware update), you will lose your LUT calibration and you will either have to get your calibrator back to redo your LUT calibration or do it yourself with the qualified CalMan software and meter. I did speak with Tyler and he said you can reload your original calibrated 3D LUT after doing a new 1D LUT and let the software recalculate the old 3D measurements to the new 1D measurements. However I’m not 100% sure that is a good idea. He also advised me that they are working on creating a tool that will allow customers to backup and restore encrypted versions of your LUT calibrations.

Until this tool is available, I personally will not be doing LUT level calibrations (manually adjusting the DDC controls of course) until the tooL is available. I can only hope other Calibrators do the same.
If you do the copy settings to all inputs then the autocal pass to all? This means after that everything is locked? If yes i agree with you not to use autocal in your clients but if not then you can do your best in expert1 maybe and autocal in expert2?
I ask this because i always believed a good 3dlut with high number of patches is always better than the best achievement by hand even though i never experienced your work and you are among the best from what i read in the forum.
Either way i think LG must change that.
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post #773 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Anyone who doesn't understand this is the golden age of TV is very confused....
I guess I must be confused then... along with the other 358,880 viewers of the OLED Screen Uniformity Discussion-Banding and Vignetting thread.

Please take me back to the silver age when we could still buy uniform televisions instead of dealing with nonsense like this or even worse issues with LCDs.
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post #774 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I learned something today that I find to be a BIG concern with AutoCal at this point in time.....

Once you complete a LUT calibration, gamma and grayscale menu items will be grayed out and inaccessible. I don’t see this as a problem, just make sure you choose the gamma you want to live with. I say this because you will not be able to readjust or reset the Video mode unless you do a factory reset.
Hi D-Nice,

From user/calibrator respective which has his own software/instruments, that limitation to re-do only one mode you want is not practical, so if you want to re-do (after some weeks) a new SDR 3D LUT only you have to reset the HDR10/DV calibrates slots also, its amazing at 2018 to discus difficulties like that one with displays with so advanced/smart capabilities to other areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
If for any reason your TV is factory reset (i.e. by accident or because of a botched firmware update), you will lose your LUT calibration and you will either have to get your calibrator back to redo your LUT calibration or do it yourself with the qualified CalMan software and meter.
I was asking about that tool LG has to release at past here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post55548392

It can be a simple TV menu entry (like the TV Channels List Export/Import Samsung's have) where you connect a USB Stick and TV will export that tables there, it has not to be a special CalMAN utility where only the calibrator can do that upload in the future, since if its something the calibrator only from inside CalMAN can do, the customer who wired a calibrator and traveled thousand miles to perform that calibration, he cant ask from the calibrator to come back only for connecting CalMAN and use that upload tool.

Customer has to do this action if something happened to the TV, calibrator will backup once the calibrations are finished (both 1D and 3D LUT tables), and the customer will keep that USB and he will not scare to install any newer firmware update risking to loose the money he has paid for professional calibration, even randomly when the TV will suddenly restart or an application failure which will require factory reset for being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I did speak with Tyler and he said you can reload your original calibrated 3D LUT after doing a new 1D LUT and let the software recalculate the old 3D measurements to the new 1D measurements. However I’m not 100% sure that is a good idea. He also advised me that they are working on creating a tool that will allow customers to backup and restore encrypted versions of your LUT calibrations.
This is impossible from accuracy perspective, to re-do 1D LUT and use display characterization measured data from different 1D LUT, I can't believe I saw that proposed solution to a calibration forum, very low understating of color science. 10x AutoCAL's in the raw will give different end results to internal RGB channel adjustment values stored internally to the TV, with different gamma also. I will post some data using my CalMAN software with these displays, once they will arrive to my country.

If that tool will be released from SpectraCAL side (and not from LG as a feature from the TV normal menu), that tool has to be freeware, for the consumer without CalMAN software to perform that upload, after a factory reset.
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post #775 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
This is impossible from accuracy perspective, to re-do 1D LUT and use display characterization measured data from different 1D LUT, I can't believe I saw that proposed solution to a calibration forum, very low understating of color science. 10x AutoCAL's in the raw will give different end results to internal RGB channel adjustment values stored internally to the TV, with different gamma also.
Absolutely agreed. You need to redo all the readings or it would be better to let the TV at OOTB settings.
The only way to go is to save the entire 1D/3D Lut in an external USB storage and that should be a LG job. My 2 cents.

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post #776 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Is CMS & 21-pt greyscale/gamma calibration at least up to 2016/17 WOLED standards?
Equal or better than the 2017s. Much better than the 2016s.

Quote:
Is near-black gamma and linearity and gamma coming out of black using 21-pt controls improved versus 2017 and 2016?

I'll await your final review for the answers, but hopefully if you are abandoning autocal for CMS/21-pt controls (at least for now), your report will include some comments on near-black performance using standard CMS/21-pt controls within the 0-5% region. A graph or table or near-black 0-5% measurements would be fantastic...
You will have your answers soon
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post #777 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
If you do the copy settings to all inputs then the autocal pass to all? This means after that everything is locked? If yes i agree with you not to use autocal in your clients but if not then you can do your best in expert1 maybe and autocal in expert2?
If you do an AutoCal for ISF Expert Dark Room, it’s only for that video mode.

Quote:
I ask this because i always believed a good 3dlut with high number of patches is always better than the best achievement by hand even though i never experienced your work and you are among the best from what i read in the forum.
Either way i think LG must change that.
With current consumer displays I agree but it is also highly dependent on LUT software capabilities and patch sequence used.
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post #778 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi D-Nice,

From user/calibrator respective which has his own software/instruments, that limitation to re-do only one mode you want is not practical, so if you want to re-do (after some weeks) a new SDR 3D LUT only you have to reset the HDR10/DV calibrates slots also, its amazing at 2018 to discus difficulties like that one with displays with so advanced/smart capabilities to other areas.
My apologies as I wasn’t clear on this specific question, You will not have to do a factory reset to redo an old AutoCal LUT calibration. You just redo whatever video mode again and the workflow will simply overwrite the old calibration for that specific video mode. You will have to do a factory reset if you wanted clear out a LUT calibration and manually calibrate the video mode.... which a can see as a possibility based on some of the stuff I’m seeing so far.



Quote:
I was asking about that tool LG has to release at past here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post55548392

It can be a simple TV menu entry (like the TV Channels List Export/Import Samsung's have) where you connect a USB Stick and TV will export that tables there, it has not to be a special CalMAN utility where only the calibrator can do that upload in the future, since if its something the calibrator only from inside CalMAN can do, the customer who wired a calibrator and traveled thousand miles to perform that calibration, he cant ask from the calibrator to come back only for connecting CalMAN and use that upload tool.

Customer has to do this action if something happened to the TV, calibrator will backup once the calibrations are finished (both 1D and 3D LUT tables), and the customer will keep that USB and he will not scare to install any newer firmware update risking to loose the money he has paid for professional calibration, even randomly when the TV will suddenly restart or an application failure which will require factory reset for being.
I think they are working on a tool that any client can use and not rely on CalMan. Tyler, please correct me if I’m mistaken.


Quote:
This is impossible from accuracy perspective, to re-do 1D LUT and use display characterization measured data from different 1D LUT, I can't believe I saw that proposed solution to a calibration forum, very low understating of color science. 10x AutoCAL's in the raw will give different end results to internal RGB channel adjustment values stored internally to the TV, with different gamma also. I will post some data using my CalMAN software with these displays, once they will arrive to my country.
Oh I know it isn’t

Quote:
If that tool will be released from SpectraCAL side (and not from LG as a feature from the TV normal menu), that tool has to be freeware, for the consumer without CalMAN software to perform that upload, after a factory reset.
Agreee but I’m not sure how it is going to be released and/or handled.
ConnecTEDDD and bedrocker.m like this.
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post #779 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tdx View Post
Can I ask you what makes you prefer OLED to this year's LCDs? Where are they still lacking?

Thanks
I don't know why people keep wasting their money on LCD year after year. I made my mistake last year when my plasma died and still regretting but i'm back on my way with my new B7
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post #780 of 980 Old 03-24-2018, 07:09 AM
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Folks, as D-Nice said, and i confirmed this with Tyler myself the other day, they are working on a process to backup and reload the calibration files, i believe without having to use Calman. We will have to wait and see what they come up with. At the end of the day you have to have a way to backup and re-load the calibration files because, think about it. When a owner calls LG for support, often, their first instruction is to reset the TV. I know myself sometimes the set can get into a state after a firmware update, etc, where you need to do a factory reset and not being able to reload the calibration is probably a show stopper. Remember, the Autocal software is still early beta. Not complete yet

As far as locking the Auto calibrated PM, it's good to know but remember autocal is bypassing the User controls so locking them out once Autocal is performed shouldn't be a problem. You can go back in with Autocal and re-do the calibration if you are a Home Enthusiast and want to change things. If your set is Pro calibrated, you shouldn't be going in and changing the calibration settings anyway. Also from what i understand, Autocal copies to all inputs for that PM so i'm guessing it greys them all out. I'll verify on my set later.

All this feedback on the product seems great to me. Let's see how it evolves and what the final product looks like.

John
Sony 55A1E, A9F, LG CX
Marantz 7012, Ohm Walsh Speakers
Klein K10-A, Jeti 1501, Murideo Six-G Gen2
Calman Ultimate, LightSpace Pro, ISF Level III Certified
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