2018 LG C8-E8 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 06:22 AM
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Haha...the 65” won’t be a OLED though
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post #302 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 06:31 AM
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FYI Just posted some C7 / C8 65” comparison shots in the banding thread.


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post #303 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 06:34 AM
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post #304 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 06:56 AM
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From what I've read, the processor in the C8 closes the gap with last year's A1E, but that latter still has a slight edge in motion handling and upscaling. The A1F's processor is probably better still.
If you meant A8F not A1F, then no, the processor and software is the same on the A8F as the A1E. If the rumors of an A9F (A1E's replacement) this fall are true, then that will have a more powerful processor, or so the rumors claim.
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post #305 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 07:56 AM
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I have to say I really like BFI, at least for SDR content, for HDR it might be to dim for some. I was expecting the flicker to be much worse from what other people reported.

A really nice side-effect is that to get the same brightness you have to crank up oled-light quite a bit, which results in less vertical banding.
Eyeballing it, 60 oled-light with BFI feels about the same as 30 without.

I made 2 presets, one with BFI and one without and switching back and forth there is considerably less vertical banding with the BFI one. I tested this using the infamous marco polo scene.
So for SDR at least I'm gonna stick to using BFI. Already watched two movies with it and I really don't might the slight flicker that's only visible in bright whites anyway. I guess I'm just not sensitive to flicker.
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post #306 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by barth2 View Post
From what I've read, the processor in the C8 closes the gap with last year's A1E, but that latter still has a slight edge in motion handling and upscaling. The A1F's processor is probably better still.
We will have to see how it all shakes out as more user come aboard......
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post #307 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I have to say I really like BFI, at least for SDR content, for HDR it might be to dim for some. I was expecting the flicker to be much worse from what other people reported.

A really nice side-effect is that to get the same brightness you have to crank up oled-light quite a bit, which results in less vertical banding.
Eyeballing it, 60 oled-light with BFI feels about the same as 30 without.

I made 2 presets, one with BFI and one without and switching back and forth there is considerably less vertical banding with the BFI one. I tested this using the infamous marco polo scene.
So for SDR at least I'm gonna stick to using BFI. Already watched two movies with it and I really don't might the slight flicker that's only visible in bright whites anyway. I guess I'm just not sensitive to flicker.
Do you feel using BFI on cable tv shows helps improve the persistence blur? Thanks

Last edited by j4894; 04-06-2018 at 11:49 AM.
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post #308 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I have to say I really like BFI, at least for SDR content, for HDR it might be to dim for some. I was expecting the flicker to be much worse from what other people reported.

A really nice side-effect is that to get the same brightness you have to crank up oled-light quite a bit, which results in less vertical banding.
Eyeballing it, 60 oled-light with BFI feels about the same as 30 without.

I made 2 presets, one with BFI and one without and switching back and forth there is considerably less vertical banding with the BFI one. I tested this using the infamous marco polo scene.
So for SDR at least I'm gonna stick to using BFI. Already watched two movies with it and I really don't might the slight flicker that's only visible in bright whites anyway. I guess I'm just not sensitive to flicker.
That's brilliant. We all know that near-black streaking/banding is related to absolute lumens, which is why they bcome less apparent if you crank OLED Light up to higher levels.

With BFI at 50%, and OLED Light increased to maintain brightness (meaning set to double lumens output when BFI is not on), streaking will only be present half of the time, meaning the intensity / visibility of the streaks will be reduced by half.

This is a reason to use BFI even on 24fps content - it won't really help with motion but it will improve near-black uniformity...
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post #309 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I have to say I really like BFI, at least for SDR content, for HDR it might be to dim for some. I was expecting the flicker to be much worse from what other people reported.

A really nice side-effect is that to get the same brightness you have to crank up oled-light quite a bit, which results in less vertical banding.
Eyeballing it, 60 oled-light with BFI feels about the same as 30 without.

I made 2 presets, one with BFI and one without and switching back and forth there is considerably less vertical banding with the BFI one. I tested this using the infamous marco polo scene.
So for SDR at least I'm gonna stick to using BFI. Already watched two movies with it and I really don't might the slight flicker that's only visible in bright whites anyway. I guess I'm just not sensitive to flicker.
LG needs to move to 240Hz refresh.

A 240Hz panel would allow flicker-free BFI that improves near-black uniformity by 150% to 400%.

A 240Hz WOLED putting out 800cd/m2 peak could display 24fps content double-strobed with 60% BFI @ 320 cd/m2 or with 80% BFI @ 160 cd/m2 (brighter than plasma).

Near-black non-uniformity @ 60% BFI will be reduced to 40% (meaning near-black uniformity has improved by 150%) and @ 80% BFI will be reduced to 20% (meaning near-black uniformity has improved by 400%).
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post #310 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
LG needs to move to 240Hz refresh.

A 240Hz panel would allow flicker-free BFI that improves near-black uniformity by 150% to 400%.

A 240Hz WOLED putting out 800cd/m2 peak could display 24fps content double-strobed with 60% BFI @ 320 cd/m2 or with 80% BFI @ 160 cd/m2 (brighter than plasma).

Near-black non-uniformity @ 60% BFI will be reduced to 40% (meaning near-black uniformity has improved by 150%) and @ 80% BFI will be reduced to 20% (meaning near-black uniformity has improved by 400%).
problem is nobody can make a 4K TV with 240hz without it burning out quickly.. This was the word from Manufacturers don't know if this has changed.

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post #311 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 01:29 PM
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Do you feel using BFI on cable tv shows helps improve the persistence blur? Thanks
Not sure, I don't watch TV on my Oled. But to be honest I don't think BFI in its current form does make a big difference when it comes to motion.
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post #312 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 01:57 PM
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Need 120 Hz BFI really. Current 60 Hz BFI has too much flicker.
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post #313 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:09 PM
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problem is nobody can make a 4K TV with 240hz without it burning out quickly.. This was the word from Manufacturers don't know if this has changed.
That was certainly true in 2015: https://www.cnet.com/news/ultra-hd-4k-tv-refresh-rates/

But is it still true today? Are there any 240Hz true-refresh 4K LCD panels this year?
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post #314 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Not sure, I don't watch TV on my Oled. But to be honest I don't think BFI in its current form does make a big difference when it comes to motion.
Find some 60fps OTA fast-action sports and check whether 50% BFI delivers less blur. That's about the only case where you may notice an improvement (little/no impact on 24fps content).
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post #315 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:18 PM
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Need 120 Hz BFI really. Current 60 Hz BFI has too much flicker.
I agree with you, but the terminology is confusing.

I suppose a 120Hz panel can only insert black frames at 60Hz.

So '120Hz BFI' requires either a panel with 240Hz native refresh rate or 120Hz 'dual-refresh' (so that the panel can be turned on to a fresh image at 120Hz and can independantly be turned off at 120Hz, so black frames can effectively be inserted at 120Hz rather than 60Hz.

So yes, we need 120Hz BFI... (2019?)
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post #316 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:27 PM
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Something weird is going on with BFI.

I watch blu-rays using my PC and like I said earlier the flicker that BFI introduces isn't that bad.

But then I watched an episode of Requiem on netflix using the internal app and the flicker BFI introduced during certain scenes was really bad, I'd say almost unwatchable.

So I started playing that same Requiem episode using the browser on my PC and guess what, the flicker was much reduced. Picture settings were identical.

Same with youtube. I picked some random snowy 4K video, as large-scale whites flicker the most. Playing the video through youtube app = terrible flicker, playing it on my PC there is only slight flicker.

I'm not sure what's going on there. I'm not even sure if BFI is supposed to work like it does on my PC or how it works on the internal apps.

edit: problem found, it's 25 fps content causing the terrible flicker, everything 24 fps is fine.

Last edited by jk82; 04-06-2018 at 03:36 PM.
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post #317 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:38 PM
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Find some 60fps OTA fast-action sports and check whether 50% BFI delivers less blur. That's about the only case where you may notice an improvement (little/no impact on 24fps content).
I don't even have access to TV programs on my oled.

I tried this test here: www.testufo.com/framerates-text

At 60 Hz with BFI the scrolling text is sharp and very good readable, without BFI still readable but becomes a bit blurry.

At 24 Hz it is very juddery either way and only a little more readable with BFI.
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post #318 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:47 PM
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I don't even have access to TV programs on my oled.

I tried this test here: www.testufo.com/framerates-text

At 60 Hz with BFI the scrolling text is sharp and very good readable, without BFI still readable but becomes a bit blurry.

At 24 Hz it is very juddery either way and only a little more readable with BFI.
Exactly what I'd expect. Was that test run through your PC and displayed on your TV?

At 60Hz, 50% BFI is reducing persistance from 16.67ms to 8.33ms (50% reduction)

At 24Hz, 40% BFI is reducing persistance from 41.67ms to 25ms, but both of those will look terrible as far as judder/persistance.
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post #319 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Something weird is going on with BFI.

I watch blu-rays using my PC and like I said earlier the flicker that BFI introduces isn't that bad.

But then I watched an episode of Requiem on netflix using the internal app and the flicker BFI introduced during certain scenes was really bad, I'd say almost unwatchable.

So I started playing that same Requiem episode using the browser on my PC and guess what, the flicker was much reduced. Picture settings were identical.

Same with youtube. I picked some random snowy 4K video, as large-scale whites flicker the most. Playing the video through youtube app = terrible flicker, playing it on my PC there is only slight flicker.

I'm not sure what's going on there. I'm not even sure if BFI is supposed to work like it does on my PC or how it works on the internal apps.
It probably depends both on how the source content was encoded and how the TV interprets that encoding. There are several 'bouncing ball' videos on YouTube to allow you to figure out what the TV is doing (24fps encoded eithing 60fps, 60fps encoded within 60fps, etc...).

Your PC is probably doing a better job converting the incoming content to 60Hz (or is getting 60Hz through a handshake where the TV ends up getting 24Hz).
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post #320 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 02:55 PM
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Exactly what I'd expect. Was that test run through your PC and displayed on your TV?
Yes PC connected to TV. I assume when it comes to motion the current implementation of BFI is much more useful for games than for movies.


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Your PC is probably doing a better job converting the incoming content to 60Hz (or is getting 60Hz through a handshake where the TV ends up getting 24Hz).
I always match the contents FPS, so when I watch a movie the PC outputs 23.976 Hz.

Last edited by jk82; 04-06-2018 at 03:13 PM.
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post #321 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 03:31 PM
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Ok I just found out what caused the terrible flicker with BFI on netflix and youtube, it's 25 fps content.

By coincidence everything I tried on netflix and youtube was 25 fps, putting the TV into 50 Hz mode I guess, which doesn't play well with the native 120 Hz panel.

I didn't even check when I played this stuff on my PC and just assumed it was 24 fps and didn't refresh rate match it. Setting my PC to 50 Hz = the same terrible flicker I've seen on netflix and youtube.
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Last edited by jk82; 04-06-2018 at 03:34 PM.
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post #322 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 03:51 PM
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Can anyone confirm that a the 422 10/12bit space works with 1440p resolution when in fullscreen and scaled to fit? On my B7 i can't run this combination as it results in a green/purple mismatch of some sort.
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post #323 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Ok I just found out what caused the terrible flicker with BFI on netflix and youtube, it's 25 fps content.

By coincidence everything I tried on netflix and youtube was 25 fps, putting the TV into 50 Hz mode I guess, which doesn't play well with the native 120 Hz panel.

I didn't even check when I played this stuff on my PC and just assumed it was 24 fps and didn't refresh rate match it. Setting my PC to 50 Hz = the same terrible flicker I've seen on netflix and youtube.
That explains it.

So 25fps content results in horrible/unwatchable flicker from BFI,

24fps content results in much less noticable flicker, improved near-black uniformity, and almost no visible improvement to motion-sharpness/persistance-based image blur,

and 60fps content also results in much less noticable flucker, improved near-black uniformity, but clearly noticable improvement in motion-sharpness and reduced persistance-based motion-blur,

Is that an accurate recap of what you've experienced?
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post #324 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 05:25 PM
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I agree with you, but the terminology is confusing.

I suppose a 120Hz panel can only insert black frames at 60Hz.

So '120Hz BFI' requires either a panel with 240Hz native refresh rate or 120Hz 'dual-refresh' (so that the panel can be turned on to a fresh image at 120Hz and can independantly be turned off at 120Hz, so black frames can effectively be inserted at 120Hz rather than 60Hz.

So yes, we need 120Hz BFI... (2019?)
I think most of us use the terminology used in computer monitors. If you strobe or BFI a 120 Hz monitor, it's still a 120Hz monitor and not 240Hz. I want to know how many times the lit image is displayed in one second. If we called it a 240 Hz monitor that is too convoluted, as your still only seeing 120 updates with BFI.
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post #325 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 05:27 PM
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That explains it.

So 25fps content results in horrible/unwatchable flicker from BFI,

24fps content results in much less noticable flicker, improved near-black uniformity, and almost no visible improvement to motion-sharpness/persistance-based image blur,

and 60fps content also results in much less noticable flucker, improved near-black uniformity, but clearly noticable improvement in motion-sharpness and reduced persistance-based motion-blur,

Is that an accurate recap of what you've experienced?
Yep that pretty much sums it up.

I will definitely keep using BFI for 24fps sdr content at about double the oled-light I would normally use, as the reduced banding is really noticeable on my set.

Now what I'm wondering is how this will affect panel wear. The pixels will have to work harder but they also will be turned off 40-50% of the time.
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post #326 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 09:24 PM
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I think most of us use the terminology used in computer monitors. If you strobe or BFI a 120 Hz monitor, it's still a 120Hz monitor and not 240Hz. I want to know how many times the lit image is displayed in one second. If we called it a 240 Hz monitor that is too convoluted, as your still only seeing 120 updates with BFI.
If my understanding of C8 BFI is correct, the set is essentially 60hz with BFI, 120hz without. This is one way which OLED is currently inferior to LCD by virtue of not having a backlight.
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post #327 of 19222 Old 04-06-2018, 09:54 PM
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Yep that pretty much sums it up.

I will definitely keep using BFI for 24fps sdr content at about double the oled-light I would normally use, as the reduced banding is really noticeable on my set.

Now what I'm wondering is how this will affect panel wear. The pixels will have to work harder but they also will be turned off 40-50% of the time.
Wear at double mA/cm^2 for 50% duty cycle should be pretty much identical to single mA/cm^2 for 100% duty cycle...
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post #328 of 19222 Old 04-07-2018, 02:12 AM
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I have to say I really like BFI, at least for SDR content, for HDR it might be to dim for some. I was expecting the flicker to be much worse from what other people reported.

A really nice side-effect is that to get the same brightness you have to crank up oled-light quite a bit, which results in less vertical banding.
Eyeballing it, 60 oled-light with BFI feels about the same as 30 without.

I made 2 presets, one with BFI and one without and switching back and forth there is considerably less vertical banding with the BFI one. I tested this using the infamous marco polo scene.
So for SDR at least I'm gonna stick to using BFI. Already watched two movies with it and I really don't might the slight flicker that's only visible in bright whites anyway. I guess I'm just not sensitive to flicker.
Just tested this out on my A1E. I have to agree with what you’re saying about less visible banding. I just checked a couple of torture scenes. With Mindhunters I did a comparison and I have to say that the banding was so min I had to really stare at it to find a problem. My panel banding would be considered minimal (I think) to start with so it would interesting to see what people say with heavier banding.
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post #329 of 19222 Old 04-07-2018, 10:21 AM
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If my understanding of C8 BFI is correct, the set is essentially 60hz with BFI, 120hz without. This is one way which OLED is currently inferior to LCD by virtue of not having a backlight.
It is actually far superior to LCD in that regard (just like everything else besides brightness). It's only the way the electronics are currently packaged on OLED TV's as the electronics cannot keep up with the display tech. You could BFI OLED 1000 times per second and due to OLED's ridiculously fast pixel transitions of less that .1 ms, the image clarity would be so spectacular, it would be life-like.

Strobing a back-light to shine through an LCD so it doesn't reveal slow LCD pixel transitions and trailing (strobe-cross talk) is far inferior to the way OLED could handle motion.
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post #330 of 19222 Old 04-07-2018, 10:29 AM
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Price increase!

Has anyone noticed the msrp price for the 77C8 on LG’s web site went from $8999 to $9999 in less than a week?

Main: LG OLED77C8PUA TV, Marantz 8802A pre/pro, ATI AT4007 AMP, Revel Performa3 C208 F206 S206 x 4, SVS SB13Ultra sub in 7.1, Dish Hopper 3 4K sat, Panasonic DP-UB9000, Roku 4K, AppleTV 4K, CSpire 1Gb fiber internet, Cyberpower PR2200L UPS. Master Br: LG OLED55C8PUA TV, Sony STR-DA5300ES AVR pre/pro, Emotiva XPA5 G3, Revel Concerta2 F35, C25, C763L surrounds, SVS SB2000 sub in 5.1, Dish 4K Joey, AppleTV 4K, Roku 4K, Panasonic DP-UB820.
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24p , black deformity , brighter corner , lg b8 , lg c8 , lg oled , lg oled c8 aspect , lg soundbar , light bleed , oled , soap opera effect , soe , sound bar

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