2018 LG C8-E8 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 564 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16891 of 22453 Old 05-10-2019, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamd View Post
It may have just the movie I watched today but this new firmware looks to be crushing black. If anyone has fixed This on new firmware could you post some 20 point setting. I went with 5% 12 10%10 15% 8 and so on for now.
And here I was hopeful when others were saying this "fixed" the black crush and resulted in taking us back to the PQ of the .15 Firmware (without any macro-blocking or flashing issues). Your settings sound just like what I have it on (to "fix" the black crush) with the .31 Firmware.
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post #16892 of 22453 Old 05-10-2019, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamd View Post
It may have just the movie I watched today but this new firmware looks to be crushing black. If anyone has fixed This on new firmware could you post some 20 point setting. I went with 5% 12 10%10 15% 8 and so on for now.
So no real fix for black crush issue then! Jeez ! 😞
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post #16893 of 22453 Old 05-10-2019, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan View Post
So no real fix for black crush issue then! Jeez ! 😞
After watching the movie I tried the same movie on my b7 in my bedroom and the crush I was seeing is the movie. After going back and forth with patterns this firmware is much better for shadow detail. I don’t know if it’s as good as 15 but much better then after the flashing fix. I will have to do more testing and look at some other movies over the weekend.
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post #16894 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
About the black crush that people often mention when they don't see 17 (or full Range 1) on a black clipping pattern:

Do you even realize how insanely dark 0.0003 nits is?
Yes I understand that and I´m watching those test pictures (like that posted full range 1 "RGB-text" when there is no other light make eye difficult to see low luminance) at pitch dark room where you can notice those.
Sure I use also i1DPro meter to get near black readings (0-4 %) and ensure there is not light when there should not be.
However readings are not exactly like they should be when just calculating value of luminances, think there is not yet panel which can give those.
In my case with 2.4 gamma and 150 nits near black readings were 0=0.0000 and 4=0.0694 and those are correct. 1, 2 and 3 were too bright.

There is panel variances but like I wrote with 04.10.15 default brightness 50 was correct to my unit, now with 05.10.00 it must be 53 to get same result with same calibration settings.
Seems that raising luminance of 5% is not cure with my case, only solution is move brightness from 50 to 53.
It´s same to me what number there is at brightness setting but I want see all darkest shadows.
Now I´m going to measure and calibrate...just technicolor preset (warm 2) if there is change again with next fw version and maby have to do factory reset again to get color temp setting work...too much clicks.

With first OLED-panels brightness was set too low already at factory on purpose because of artefacts at very near black, maby we are still at same point but because of different reason (near black flashing, macro blocking, near-black chrominance overshoot or what ever is right term for that problem/feature).

Last edited by Make73; 05-11-2019 at 01:33 AM.
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post #16895 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 02:41 AM
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My panel has always been too dark at the low end even before .31 it needed adjustments.
I remember when I got this panel almost a year ago this was the first thing I complained about and people told me I need to wait like 200 hours for it to settle. It has more than 2000 hours now and I'm still waiting for the low end to settle...

With brightness above 50 I would need less adjustments but like I explained previously I don't do that anymore because it causes 17 to get too bright, which is terrible for dark room viewing.

Just for comparison, these are the low end values that my panel needs at brightness 50, Oled 36, BT1886:

FW 04.10.55
5: 16
10: 20
15: 16
20: 14
25: 11
30: 8
35: 5

FW 05.10.00
5: 9
10: 9
15: 5
20: 3
25: 1
30: -2
35: -4

Unfortunately I don't have my pre .31 values anymore to compare.
In the end, between those two firmwares I don't think it makes a difference when both were calibrated but I gotta watch more content to really determine that...
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post #16896 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Yep. Never stood in line for any of our iPhones and only stood in line for hours for one movie on premier day: Star Wars
Which Star Wars? The day 4k Star Wars films release is "Today will be a day long remembered. It has seen the death of 1080p, and will soon see the end of the waiting for bliss."

Wait....did I misquote something?
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post #16897 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pr3dict View Post
Question... I have a 77c8 while doing the calculations for whatever reason i mounted the mount so that the bottom of the TV is 42" from the ground. On a fixed mount. Because I only had one stud where I needed the mount to be I put a 1x6 piece of wood across three beams and mounted the mount to that.

Question is for all that have a 77, is 42 inches off the floor too high? It would be a pain in the ass to move as I'd have to put another piece of wood up but if it's going to be terrible I'll do what I gotta do.
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Originally Posted by axle7 View Post
My 77C8 is mounted such that the bottom of the panel is 39" from the floor. My feeling is that it is a few inches too high. But it is not a big deal for me. Due to room constraints I am unable to lower it any further. I am 13' back from the TV so a few feet farther than you. My mount is an articulating wall mount.

IMO and from my experience with my current setup I think your viewing at 10' would be a little more comfortable if you lowered it a bit. But if you are not OCD and can tolerate misaligned objects then you just might get used to it at 42". I would lower mine probably about 3" if I was able to. I have a couple of friends that mounted their TVs above a fireplace and those are crazy high.

IIRC I think the optimal viewing height is for your eyes to be about the midpoint of the Panel when at your viewing position. If I followed this guideline then my TV is actually mounted 8" too high. But it is fine for me where its at.
Yes, above a fireplace is ludicrous, and will give you neck pains and back pains down the line.

I used to think that the middle of the screen should be at eye-level. Also for PC monitors at a desk in an office, I've seen guides that say your eyes should be level with 1/3rd of the way down. I'm sure that's correct for PCs at a desk but I fell into the trap of thinking it's correct for TVs in a house.

Happily recently someone posted this image, which I am accepting as "correct" for every screen size



This is great because the distance you sit from the screen has no bearing on what height it should be. It's all about the height of your head when you are sat down. Keeps it so much simpler!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
About the black crush that people often mention when they don't see 17 (or full Range 1) on a black clipping pattern:

Do you even realize how insanely dark 0.0003 nits is? Because that's what the target for limited range 17 is when using gamma 2.4 and 120 nits peak. That's like 1/100 the brightness of a 3% slide which already is very very dark.
In the past I was also always trying to get 17 to show up on those flashing bars test pattern but all this has gotten me was often seeing elevated blacks in movies...
I wouldn't be surprised if most people have their <1% way too bright.

I think the best way to test if it's crushed or not is to look at a 0.5% (17) and 1% (18) fullscreen pattern in a pitch dark room. There should only be some faint glow.
I agree, and after reading the same recently I now have the make a mental note not to use those black clipping patterns. Your eyes cannot adjust correctly to see 17 when it's "correct", if there is other brighter content on the screen at the same time. Those black clipping patterns are therefore dangerously misleading if you think you need to adjust so that you can even "just see" 17, on those patterns, which is the bad advice I've read for many years in many guides, including the AVS709 one! ("Set black level to lowest setting where 17-25 flash", it says - NO! If you can see 17 on this pattern, it's too bright!)
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post #16898 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 03:56 AM
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Just measured technicolor factory defaults warm1 (technicolor white point) and warm2 (D65).

With brightness setting 50 and 51 1% window is totally black 0.0000nits but when I set it to 52 there will be light and tracking for 2, 3 and 4 is better (see picture) than when set brightness to 53 when visually see full RGB 1.
So, maby at now I end up to compromise and set brightness to 52. I loose darkest detail but maby overall quality is better.

And for compare, with 04.10.15 1% window was 0.025nits with default brightness setting 50 and factory defaults. So yes, there is absolutely difference when talking about near black and I´m not totally convinced is it now better than before...there´s no way back so...

And now for calibration...
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post #16899 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 04:40 AM
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In the avforums I have read, that the 5.10.00 FW woud have impact on HDR. https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-...#post-27108643
Can anyone confirm this? Maybe they changed tone mapping into the C9 direction ...? Or is this BS?
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post #16900 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I agree, and after reading the same recently I now have the make a mental note not to use those black clipping patterns. Your eyes cannot adjust correctly to see 17 when it's "correct", if there is other brighter content on the screen at the same time. Those black clipping patterns are therefore dangerously misleading if you think you need to adjust so that you can even "just see" 17, on those patterns, which is the bad advice I've read for many years in many guides, including the AVS709 one! ("Set black level to lowest setting where 17-25 flash", it says - NO! If you can see 17 on this pattern, it's too bright!)
What I do in a pitch black room is walk up to the screen just an inch away, shield my eyes from everything but the screen and then I can only just see the difference between total black and not. The same I do for brightness setting for total black, raise it until I just see some pixels glowing very dark grey and then one step down. 51 brightness is then ok for SDR. I recall this was also my setting on firmware .20, now I am on.55 with tweeked settings, waiting for official release of 5.10.00, the redo the check.
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post #16901 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post

Yes, above a fireplace is ludicrous, and will give you neck pains and back pains down the line.

I used to think that the middle of the screen should be at eye-level. Also for PC monitors at a desk in an office, I've seen guides that say your eyes should be level with 1/3rd of the way down. I'm sure that's correct for PCs at a desk but I fell into the trap of thinking it's correct for TVs in a house.

Happily recently someone posted this image, which I am accepting as "correct" for every screen size [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]



This is great because the distance you sit from the screen has no bearing on what height it should be. It's all about the height of your head when you are sat down. Keeps it so much simpler!
Funny the imagine says typically 42" but from everything I've seen none of us sit that high unless we are on a high chair. 3 and a 1/2 feet no joke.
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post #16902 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by pr3dict View Post
Funny the imagine says typically 42" but from everything I've seen none of us sit that high unless we are on a high chair. 3 and a 1/2 feet no joke.
For me it is, on the couch. And I not sit up straight. (I’m 191cm)
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post #16903 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Edpinguin View Post
What I do in a pitch black room is walk up to the screen just an inch away, shield my eyes from everything but the screen and then I can only just see the difference between total black and not. The same I do for brightness setting for total black, raise it until I just see some pixels glowing very dark grey and then one step down. 51 brightness is then ok for SDR. I recall this was also my setting on firmware .20, now I am on.55 with tweeked settings, waiting for official release of 5.10.00, the redo the check.
Yes, I agree. I now use a 10% size patch of 17, in a pitch black room to verify I can only just see "something" that's not black. (Verify only because I calibrate with a meter!) But not those pluge patterns or flashing patterns.

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post #16904 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 05:45 AM
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Is that the same meaning of "interesting" as in the phrase "May you live in interesting times"?

@curlyjive , the 3 sites (not full urls ) I found when I read about this were
snu.lge.com
su.lge.com
lgtvonline.lge.com
I just received an update notification for 4.10.55 on my TV even though I blocked the above 3 sites on my router. I am located in the USA for everyone's info.
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post #16905 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by pr3dict View Post
Funny the imagine says typically 42" but from everything I've seen none of us sit that high unless we are on a high chair. 3 and a 1/2 feet no joke.
Yes. It's really "however high your eyes are, when you're say in that chair"

However over the last few years I've learned that there is a "standard" average height which suggests how high to mount the "bed" level speakers on the wall (for Dolby Atmos / Surround sound), ie an average person's ear height when seated. This is 120cm and is the ITU-R BS 1116-1 "standard listening height". .

If your eyes and ears are at the same level, you'd want that "1/3rd of the way up" to also be at the same height. 120cm is 47.2441inches so that fits in the range.

But for my chair and my room, I think I used 110cm. I got a friend to measure me when seated bolt upright, and when slouched, and took an average I think! It was a while ago

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post #16906 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cartload View Post
I just received an update notification for 4.10.55 on my TV even though I blocked the above 3 sites on my router. I am located in the USA for everyone's info.
I never believed it was a bombproof way to "block" in the first place. All the manufacturer has to do is start using an IP address (a whole selection, just one would be too risky) instead of a DNS name when it comes to "server to check for updates from" internally.
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post #16907 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 07:21 AM
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Manually calibrated fw 05.10.00

With brightness setting 52 at full RGB test pattern box no:3 is first one with light so compared to fw 04.10.15 (brightness 50) loosed two darkest but maby that´s not problem.
Luminance tracking seems to be excellent with HCFR near black test.

Had to drop OLED-light setting from 44-->38 to get same 150nits from white.

Lets see what next fw offer, hope official version number is greater than this one.
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post #16908 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 08:13 AM
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I find too bright 0.5%-1% to be much more of a problem than having it slightly crushed/clipped because it will make scenes like this look terrible when watching in a dark room:


(what looks like black is actually in the 1% range and such scenes aren't that uncommon and rarely use true black)
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post #16909 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I used to think that the middle of the screen should be at eye-level. Also for PC monitors at a desk in an office, I've seen guides that say your eyes should be level with 1/3rd of the way down. I'm sure that's correct for PCs at a desk but I fell into the trap of thinking it's correct for TVs in a house.

Happily recently someone posted this image, which I am accepting as "correct" for every screen size
1/3rd is exactly where my eye level is and I find it to be PERFECT!

Quite frankly, I've been in homes where they have a nice display mounted above the fireplace and after "cranking my head back" for 15 minutes or so I get a "kink in my neck."
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post #16910 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 08:44 AM
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1/3rd is exactly where my eye level is and I find it to be PERFECT!

Quite frankly, I've been in homes where they have a nice display mounted above the fireplace and after "cranking my head back" for 15 minutes or so I get a "kink in my neck."
You guys made me pull out the tape measure! I set my TV height quite awhile ago, made it so the viewing angle from the couch was comfortable, looking straight at the screen but slightly raised on the wall as to be seen, guess what, I measured up from the floor to the 1/3 point on the screen and the tape read 43"

As for TV's on/above a fireplace, what are they thinking, always way to high, looks like an afterthought or some kind of bragging right, 'look I have TV...' and in our house that fireplace actually produces useable heat and a lot of it, no way I would subject any TV to that!
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post #16911 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 08:47 AM
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Which Star Wars? The day 4k Star Wars films release is "Today will be a day long remembered. It has seen the death of 1080p, and will soon see the end of the waiting for bliss."

Wait....did I misquote something?
The original Star Wars. Stood in line for a few hours..... but we kept going back to the car for "refreshments"

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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post #16912 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 08:52 AM
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^^^^^^^^

If you look at my Signature (the picture of my display and front speakers) you'll see that the "tweeters on my left-right speakers" are at the 1/3rd mark of my display, for I set those up so the tweeters would be at "ear level." Those too are PERFECT for my AUDIO EXPERIENCE! So, the 1/3rd mark of the display works for both!!
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post #16913 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 09:11 AM
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This is great because the distance you sit from the screen has no bearing on what height it should be. It's all about the height of your head when you are sat down. Keeps it so much simpler!
I always hang my TV a little higher to keep it out of Harm's Way. The bottom of most of my TVs are 40 in off the ground
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post #16914 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 09:54 AM
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Is the color gamut still locked to wide in game mode in FW 05.10.00?
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post #16915 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
I always hang my TV a little higher to keep it out of Harm's Way. The bottom of most of my TVs are 40 in off the ground
That's not TOO BAD, as long as there's no neck or back pain involved.

Again, with those who mount their displays ABOVE a fireplace, if it's an LCD not only will there be neck/back issues, but there will be serious viewing problems in most cases, for we know that the colors and brightness of an LCD will "wash out" as one gravitates too far from center. This is not only true of going too far "to one side," but also too far "above." I have seen many LCD displays at B&M stores mounted way too high and it was indeed "washed out" (you especially notice it if another display is mounted right below it.

Of course, this is a moot point for this thread, for OLED owners are blessed with a beautiful display that has no issues with "viewing angles."
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post #16916 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 11:20 AM
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^^ Can always tilt it down to remove that fireplace height effect issue.
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post #16917 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 11:34 AM
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post #16918 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
1/3rd is exactly where my eye level is and I find it to be PERFECT!

Quite frankly, I've been in homes where they have a nice display mounted above the fireplace and after "cranking my head back" for 15 minutes or so I get a "kink in my neck."

Same here. I've never been a fan of fireplace or wall mounted tv's for various reasons. Looks nice in a model home but it's not practical for us. At 10' on the couch, eye level is almost dead center (maybe a bit lower) which works very well for us.
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post #16919 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 12:20 PM
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About the black crush that people often mention when they don't see 17 (or full Range 1) on a black clipping pattern:

Do you even realize how insanely dark 0.0003 nits is? Because that's what the target for limited range 17 is when using gamma 2.4 and 120 nits peak. That's like 1/100 the brightness of a 3% slide which already is very very dark.
In the past I was also always trying to get 17 to show up on those flashing bars test pattern but all this has gotten me was often seeing elevated blacks in movies...
I wouldn't be surprised if most people have their <1% way too bright.

I think the best way to test if it's crushed or not is to look at a 0.5% (17) and 1% (18) fullscreen pattern in a pitch dark room. There should only be some faint glow.
This is such a good post it is worth quoting again. Very true. Even if 17 isn't visible, it's better to leave it that way rather than elevating the black level above the 0 nit BL capability of the display just to see 17. And 0.0003 nits is about what my tweaked Kuro KRP500M black level is and that can only be seen in a completely dark room after my eyes adjusted. I think too many of us (even those with sw/meters) think that blacks are crushed because they can see additional dark details in video when raising brightness or 5% luminance, but in most cases either the room is too bright, or those are below black details that the camera picks up that are not meant to be seen.
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I find too bright 0.5%-1% to be much more of a problem than having it slightly crushed/clipped because it will make scenes like this look terrible when watching in a dark room
Yes, and even raising raising 2%-5% too far can cause the image to look flat.
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post #16920 of 22453 Old 05-11-2019, 12:23 PM
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Is the color gamut still locked to wide in game mode in FW 05.10.00?
Yes, it's locked to wide in SDR mode. In HDR color gamut in game mode let's you select any of the 3 options

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