2018 LG C8-E8 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 668 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20011 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by win200 View Post
I've attached some screen pics of an iTunes stream that I just watched (the 2019 film TRESPASSERS). Hard to capture with an iPhone, but you can see some of the noise that I'm talking about. I checked out the same stream on my 65C7 and it looked perfect--not like this at all. Is this a defect?
Humor me and try the same scenes with "frame rate matching" turned off on your Apple TV under its video settings.

I've seen my Apple TV 4K show some strange behavior/artifacts when matching frame rates. Though I think it happens most when YUV of 4:4:4 is enabled too.

--H
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post #20012 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 02:32 PM
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I was indeed confusing the two. I actually had no idea until today that the TV does some kind of tone mapping regardless of Dynamic Tone Mapping. That sure explains a lot! What is the difference between the TV's tone mapping and its Dynamic tone mapping?
All TVs that display HDR have to perform tone-mapping, both for luminances which they can't display, and the wider colours of rec.2020 which they can't display. Since day one. Otherwise if you watched a 4,000 nit movie on a 500 nit display everything above 500 nits would be clipped. For HDR10, there's no standard which dictates how a manufacturer should implement tone mapping. It's the "wild west". Everyone does it differently. For Dolby Vision, there is a standard (Dolby Vision) and this gives content creators confidence on how their work will look.

When doing static tonemapping (in fact all forms of tonemapping), you can EITHER keep the highlight detail, OR the overall brightness. You have to pick ONE because the TV physically cannot display both!

Here's a very good comparison of the different approaches. You will learn a lot from this very entertaining video:

One criticism in the past particularly on low-nit displays is that if there is a single very bright scene in a movie, the rest of the movie can look very dark because the TV tone-maps everything down to make "headroom" for that bright bit.

Dynamic tone mapping, an enhancement built into HDR10+ and Dolby Vision both provide specific data for each scene, instead of a single set of values, so that the TV's tone-mapping algorithm can make better decisions, and doesn't have a whole dark load of stuff just because of one bright scene.

LG's Dynamic tone mapping for HDR10 is a poor man's version of that. It's the TV's guesswork. It analyses the incoming signal "on the fly", without the benefit of knowing what is coming in 1 second or 1 minute's time, and tries to "react" to the signal that is coming in. If it gets it wrong it can make things suddenly bright or dark because it's constantly having to react.

The "HDR Optimiser" function in the Panasonic players is more than just "Dynamic tone mapping". And it does a far better job. Please watch Vincent's video:
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post #20013 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 02:35 PM
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Really? That is encouraging to hear. I have tried everything I can think of to maintain ARC and ditch CEC. Once I add that adaptor into the mix ARC stops working even though everything still shows as enabled (meaning it doesn't do that switch to internal speaker thing that it normally does when ARC disconnects). Do you happen to know how people are getting it to function?
No. I don't know the number of people who have been successful. Not everyone who purchases the Lindy posts here. Just but it from Amazon and try it out. If it doesn't work, return it.

ARC/CEC is a [email protected] for lots of folks. Partially because on some systems, they are related so you can't completely disable one without the other. And that's not specific to one mfr either. I don't need ARC because I don't use the internal apps on my panel so I just use an optical cable from the tv to the receiver for local HDTV stations only (which is 5.1) instead of ARC and a Harmony remote to control everything instead of CEC.
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post #20014 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 02:58 PM
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Just download it and install via USB already.
Is there an official USA firmware to download?
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post #20015 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
No. I don't know the number of people who have been successful. Not everyone who purchases the Lindy posts here. Just but it from Amazon and try it out. If it doesn't work, return it.

ARC/CEC is a [email protected] for lots of folks. Partially because on some systems, they are related so you can't completely disable one without the other. And that's not specific to one mfr either. I don't need ARC because I don't use the internal apps on my panel so I just use an optical cable from the tv to the receiver for local HDTV stations only (which is 5.1) instead of ARC and a Harmony remote to control everything instead of CEC.
I use the Lindy with 2 devices that were causing HDMI issues and it works.
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post #20016 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 03:19 PM
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There is an Harmony support forum you can ask for assistance and they are quite helpfull. Anyhow, I know their approach and they will tell you not use Simplink, and use toptical. My experience tell you can keep Simplink. The trick, in your case, is to add a delay after the power on, in the power on sequence (a "nop" command is needed after the delay, otherwise the delay is skipped) and adding the switch to CBL/SAT in the activity start sequence). Satr with long delays, and the tune them. If you need more help send me private message, I don't want to bother with stuff out of topic.
Thanks for trying to help. I actually fixed the issue thanks to help from the Hramony thread - there is a setting in the Denon menu for "TV Audio Switching" which was set "on". Turning that off fixed the issue.
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post #20017 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BlazednSleepy View Post
Is there an official USA firmware to download?

Have you checked the C8's product page on LG.com ? Direct link below. If there isn't one, the Canadian and Korean websites have the same firmware files that the US website will. There have been links to firmware 05.10.03 in this thread the past few pages, why not download from one of those and be done with it, many of the owners here have done just that.

Product page on the US website:
https://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-OLED65C8PUA-oled-4k-tv


Direct link to the Canadian product firmware version 05.10.03:
http://gscs-b2c.lge.com/downloadFile...2YC0gquJkQv5Cg
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post #20018 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
All TVs that display HDR have to perform tone-mapping, both for luminances which they can't display, and the wider colours of rec.2020 which they can't display. Since day one. Otherwise if you watched a 4,000 nit movie on a 500 nit display everything above 500 nits would be clipped. For HDR10, there's no standard which dictates how a manufacturer should implement tone mapping. It's the "wild west". Everyone does it differently. For Dolby Vision, there is a standard (Dolby Vision) and this gives content creators confidence on how their work will look.

When doing static tonemapping (in fact all forms of tonemapping), you can EITHER keep the highlight detail, OR the overall brightness. You have to pick ONE because the TV physically cannot display both!

Here's a very good comparison of the different approaches. You will learn a lot from this very entertaining video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt6IflKAmWg

One criticism in the past particularly on low-nit displays is that if there is a single very bright scene in a movie, the rest of the movie can look very dark because the TV tone-maps everything down to make "headroom" for that bright bit.

Dynamic tone mapping, an enhancement built into HDR10+ and Dolby Vision both provide specific data for each scene, instead of a single set of values, so that the TV's tone-mapping algorithm can make better decisions, and doesn't have a whole dark load of stuff just because of one bright scene.

LG's Dynamic tone mapping for HDR10 is a poor man's version of that. It's the TV's guesswork. It analyses the incoming signal "on the fly", without the benefit of knowing what is coming in 1 second or 1 minute's time, and tries to "react" to the signal that is coming in. If it gets it wrong it can make things suddenly bright or dark because it's constantly having to react.

The "HDR Optimiser" function in the Panasonic players is more than just "Dynamic tone mapping". And it does a far better job. Please watch Vincent's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTw_Toh0PzA
I really can't thank you enough for this post. I thought I have done a pretty good job educating myself on all things HDR and 4K but apparently not! I quite simply had no idea Tone Mapping and Dynamic Tone Mapping were two different things. Though now that you have explained it, it makes perfect sense that all displays HAVE to Tone Map.

It's funny you linked those two videos by Vincent because I was just re-watching the latter one when I saw you had replied. I have actually watched both those videos before but want to again with my new understanding.

I'm actually a big fan of Dolby Vision so I know how it works fairly well, and this topic just reminds me why I like it so much. It's just -- for lack of a better word -- simpler for the end-user in my opinion.

I hesitate to say this, but if I am being honest I still don't quite get the difference between the Tone Mapping the TV HAS to do, and the optional Dynamic Tone Mapping you can turn on or off.

Is the standard tone mapping the TV has to do not dynamic?

I thought I had it right in my head for awhile but I am not so sure now. But let me know if this is at all correct:

The Dynamic tone mapping will try to bring the luminance of a disc down to 1000. It does this on the fly and not very well.

Then The TV's standard tone mapping will bring that 1000 down to whatever it can actually handle.

Is that correct at all?
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post #20019 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 05:28 PM
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Is there an official USA firmware to download?
Briefly there was ! Then it disappeared ! I got it before it disappeared ! .03 is superior to .31 and .55.
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post #20020 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 06:34 PM
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Briefly there was ! Then it disappeared ! I got it before it disappeared ! .03 is superior to .31 and .55.

Did you download it from the website or OTA?
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post #20021 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 06:39 PM
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Did you download it from the website or OTA?
OTA . It said I had new firmware update on my LG C8 . Immediately downloaded it. No issues !
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post #20022 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 07:04 PM
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Yet another day and no OTA update.
Yeah LG USA seems to have dropped the ball on OTA update. I got it when it was briefly up. But it has never reappeared.
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post #20023 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 07:05 PM
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Got tired of waiting for the OTA update so I downloaded from the Canada site. Definitely a significant difference. I'm using RMasciola for basic HDR patterns and it required a big adjustment from before.
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post #20024 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 09:38 PM
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Got tired of waiting for the OTA update so I downloaded from the Canada site. Definitely a significant difference. I'm using RMasciola for basic HDR patterns and it required a big adjustment from before.
It is noticeably better .
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post #20025 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I hesitate to say this, but if I am being honest I still don't quite get the difference between the Tone Mapping the TV HAS to do, and the optional Dynamic Tone Mapping you can turn on or off.

Is the standard tone mapping the TV has to do not dynamic?
No, it's static. The same tone mapping is applied throughout the entire length of content. How the content is tone-mapped depends on the metadata supplied. If it was mastered at 1000 nits, the display might follow the PQ EOTF perfectly up to 500 nits (for example), then roll off / compress the high end.

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I thought I had it right in my head for awhile but I am not so sure now. But let me know if this is at all correct:

The Dynamic tone mapping will try to bring the luminance of a disc down to 1000. It does this on the fly and not very well.

Then The TV's standard tone mapping will bring that 1000 down to whatever it can actually handle.

Is that correct at all?
First, don't confuse what Dolby Vision does with what the LG option does. Dolby Vision's tone mapping is carried out in a similar fashion to your TV's static tone mapping - except that it can optimise the tone mapping from scene to scene, as the system is capable of comparing the characteristics of the mastering display to your display at home. In both cases the creator's intent is observed.

In contrast, the DTM option on the LG is a tacked on extra (sitting alongside the regular tone mapping) that manipulates the gamma curve of the content as determined by an algorithm. It's taking guesses at what would make the content look best, it has no idea what the original creator's intent was when mastering the scene.
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post #20026 of 22083 Old 08-06-2019, 11:12 PM
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Briefly there was ! Then it disappeared ! I got it before it disappeared ! .03 is superior to .31 and .55.
LOL, whats up with it disappearing?
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post #20027 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 12:37 AM
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LOL, whats up with it disappearing?
I don't think it was ever up on the US website for download via web browser for custom install via USB.

I think (I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong) that the "disappearance" is referring to the inability to find it via the TV's built-in updating mechanism. But, I'm pretty sure it's still being rolled out piecemeal even as I write this. I was the first to post that my TV had been offered the update in the US. But I cancelled it, and was never offered it again. Yet for days afterwards, people continued to report it being offered. When it's not being offered for days on end, it's easy to assume that it must have been "pulled". . .

I suspect there is some algorithm used at LG's end to determine which TVs are offered the update and which aren't. . . perhaps even random based on serial numbers, etc. The idea being that the firmware won't roll out too widely at first.

As for it not appearing on the US website for download. Someone done screwed up and nobody seems all that in a hurry to rectify said screw up.

I finally just installed the download from the Canadian LG website after comparing file hashes between Canada, Korea, and the US for prior updates and confirming that they are identical via file hashes.

--H
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post #20028 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 02:04 AM
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LOL, whats up with it disappearing?
Good question for LG. No one has reported being able to download .03 firmware update OTA since that first night it was offered !
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post #20029 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 02:55 AM
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Hi,

I have had my 77C8 up and running for a few days now and coming from a 65B7 I am loving it. The picture looks cleaner on anything that's less than pristine and motion is better. Also sitting at 6 feet it gives a fantastic cinematic effect. I haven't contemplated looking at slides but when I have been on a "natural" self coloured screen the uniformity looks great.

Just one minor first world niggle and that is the stand is very reflective , so much so that in a dark room it can be distracting as it reflects light from the screen. I just wonder if anyone else has seen this as an issue and if so what they did to negate it ?

I could just cover it with a piece of black material but that looks a bit untidy . I could spray the stand black but that's a bit awkward now the TV is in position and so am looking for a safe, easy, effective and elegant solution that preferably is reversible.

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post #20030 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 03:29 AM
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No, it's static. The same tone mapping is applied throughout the entire length of content. How the content is tone-mapped depends on the metadata supplied. If it was mastered at 1000 nits, the display might follow the PQ EOTF perfectly up to 500 nits (for example), then roll off / compress the high end.
Just one note about this topic (it could have been more ): in theory you guys are right.
But let's not forget that every consumer recent OLED TV has at least 3 ABL algo!
So, we can screw theory here when our sets do whatever they want

After accepting the above, everyone can do what he/she likes:
- one dislikes DTM completely
- one likes DTM only during bright day (as DV Cinema Home preset)
- one likes DTM even during the night (me included)

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post #20031 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 04:40 AM
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It is noticeably better .
Agreed. People here are over hyping this update like it's the best thing since sliced bread.
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post #20032 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 04:49 AM
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I believe the Software Update app is still installed (isn't it returned when your run com.webos.applicationManager/listApps and Sure still finds it dynamically), but it is disabled somehow on the 5.x.x firmware.
I can't know that since I'm on v4.10.25 with B8 It's your turn now for experimenting.

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Do you have such a document? It woudl be great if you can share it
No You have to dig in source codes (as I linked them in that post).

Here's an official page, not telling much.
This is what I found on it now (I haven't tried it though):
- service.request (it must be the same request that I used) that uses different luna api endpoints (compared to ssap)

One interesting thing is that this page states that it has a command-line utility as well in the SDK, e.g. you can run apps with "ares-launch" command (not sure that on the TV itself or in the Emulator).

This page states that apps can be installed from external USB drive!!!
Now how we can backup apps...
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post #20033 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 05:35 AM
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Yeah, it happens most of the time with HDR with me as well. I recommend getting an official remote, this way there is no wondering or issues that might come up.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So, I purchased the remote you recommended and did everything suggested with turning off the ASBL, but the issue still persists while playing the same two games. The dimming still happens

Any other suggestions? I'm really frustrated with this. It will be nice and bright and perfect, but still will be dark and then randomly brighten up....rinse repeat.
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post #20034 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 07:05 AM
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So, I purchased the remote you recommended and did everything suggested with turning off the ASBL, but the issue still persists while playing the same two games. The dimming still happens

Any other suggestions? I'm really frustrated with this. It will be nice and bright and perfect, but still will be dark and then randomly brighten up....rinse repeat.
yeeeeep, this is a new (introduced in 8 series) undefeatable dimming, unfortunately there is no way to turn this off i am on same boat as you, i hate it so much, makes watching/playing sport such a frustrating experience
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post #20035 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
Hi,



I have had my 77C8 up and running for a few days now and coming from a 65B7 I am loving it. The picture looks cleaner on anything that's less than pristine and motion is better. Also sitting at 6 feet it gives a fantastic cinematic effect. I haven't contemplated looking at slides but when I have been on a "natural" self coloured screen the uniformity looks great.



Just one minor first world niggle and that is the stand is very reflective , so much so that in a dark room it can be distracting as it reflects light from the screen. I just wonder if anyone else has seen this as an issue and if so what they did to negate it ?



I could just cover it with a piece of black material but that looks a bit untidy . I could spray the stand black but that's a bit awkward now the TV is in position and so am looking for a safe, easy, effective and elegant solution that preferably is reversible.


Why not vinyl wrap it? They have all sorts of colors even different material look now that you could use.


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post #20036 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 08:11 AM
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2018 LG C8-E8 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk)

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post #20037 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by thegam3 View Post
yeeeeep, this is a new (introduced in 8 series) undefeatable dimming, unfortunately there is no way to turn this off i am on same boat as you, i hate it so much, makes watching/playing sport such a frustrating experience
If this is true, then I am disgusted. I paid a LOT of money for this to watch movies and game.

Will try on my C7. Hopefully it will work for that TV in my master bedroom.

Is there a TV out there that will have the great 4K HDR quality minus this ridiculous dimming?
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post #20038 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 3isRC View Post
Why not vinyl wrap it? They have all sorts of colors even different material look now that you could use.


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That's a great idea that I never considered although I have watched cars being wrapped. Thanks, I'm going to look into that idea.
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LG 77C8 (UK) - Arcam AVR 850 - Arcam FMJ P7 - 7.2.4 Atmos setup.
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post #20039 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Masters View Post
No, it's static. The same tone mapping is applied throughout the entire length of content. How the content is tone-mapped depends on the metadata supplied. If it was mastered at 1000 nits, the display might follow the PQ EOTF perfectly up to 500 nits (for example), then roll off / compress the high end.



First, don't confuse what Dolby Vision does with what the LG option does. Dolby Vision's tone mapping is carried out in a similar fashion to your TV's static tone mapping - except that it can optimise the tone mapping from scene to scene, as the system is capable of comparing the characteristics of the mastering display to your display at home. In both cases the creator's intent is observed.

In contrast, the DTM option on the LG is a tacked on extra (sitting alongside the regular tone mapping) that manipulates the gamma curve of the content as determined by an algorithm. It's taking guesses at what would make the content look best, it has no idea what the original creator's intent was when mastering the scene.
I appreciate this. I don't 100% understand it all but I have a pretty good idea now how things work. I know enough to understand I can use a UB820 with this TV and turn off the TV's DTM and I wont be losing anything. I purchased the player and am looking forward to trying it out...again.
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post #20040 of 22083 Old 08-07-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DistractedforLife View Post
Does anyone here think LG will include 12 bit panels next year in their new models?...
No. Of course that isn't really a C8/E8 related question either.

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