2018 LG C8-E8 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 675 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20221 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I honestly had no idea Panasonic has turned into such a high quality company. Makes me re-think their brand from when I was very young. When you say tweak-able version of the tone mapping, what do you mean? What is tweak-able about it on the players? Do you mean being able to choose your display type? (I have a feeling you mean more than that.)
When Pioneer stopped making TVs, Panasonic bought the Kuro technology from Pioneer, Gave them a huge jump in picture quality!
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post #20222 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by airborn007 View Post
Much thanks sir. I guess if it's the same then nothing really did change for Dolby Vision though some say it got a tad darker but could just be a placebo effect.
The version of the dolby vision libraries has been reporting the same (1.5.0_17.00) since firmware 4.10.05 in Sep 2018.

Before that, it was 1.5.0_16.00. I'm pretty sure it's to do with the Dolby vision Profiles and decoding, and not really the picture output side of things.

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post #20223 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Masters View Post
No, it's static.



Because Panasonic is simply better at doing what it does. Panasonic has included a tweakable version of the tone mapping found on their displays in the player. Panasonic is the king of image quality, they more than anyone else, know what they're doing when it comes to picture accuracy.



Yes, in the form of their TV's regular tone mapping.



Yes they do, and unlike LG's, it's one I would be more likely to take advantage of. Their dynamic solution only adjusts the higher end of the picture, towards where the image rolls off, leaving the majority of the content untouched.
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Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post
When Pioneer stopped making TVs, Panasonic bought the Kuro technology from Pioneer, Gave them a huge jump in picture quality!
I sadly never owned a Plasma and just very recently started hearing about the Kuro Plasmas and how revered they apparently were. I did not know the tech was sold to Panasonic from Pioneer!
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post #20224 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by shadowspawn View Post
So has this been confirmed?
It's been proven with calibration scans posted here by jk82. Ages ago.

I'm not sure what other standard of proof you are seeking.

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post #20225 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I was Re-watching the video about tone mapping between the 3 displays and it occured to me... in that video he is demonstrating each TV's standard Tone Mapping...NOT Dynamic Tone mapping correct?
I think so but he would say if he wasn't. Listen more carefully

What the standard tone-mapping process does is pretty complicated and it is not simple to understand the trade-offs that have to be made. Vincent has created a very good explanation of that.

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Is dynamic not always better when it comes to this topic?
ARGH! NO! It's nearly always worse. You would not normally need anything "Dynamic". That word is a Red Flag to us video enthusiasts.

Quote:
I know LG touts the C8 DTM as a poor mans HDR10+ and in that, I was very intrigued by it..
Please, please, just think of "Dynamic Tone Mapping" in the same way that (I hope) you think of "Dynamic Contrast" and "Vivid mode". Something which completely changes the picture, makes it a long way away from what was intended by the creators, and which you should just turn off, forget about, and never use.

I can't believe it's getting so much discussion
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post #20226 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:09 PM
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Dynamic tone mapping is crap. It destroys the eotf. It's similar to dynamic contrast in SDR. If you like it, that's cool, but it's not accurate. At all.
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post #20227 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:20 PM
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@chronitis

Any changes on PQ settings for the .03 from the settings you shared for the .55?

Thanks

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post #20228 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
It's been proven with calibration scans posted here by jk82. Ages ago.

I'm not sure what other standard of proof you are seeking.

Well, this is the AV Science Forums. One of the principles of Science is reproducibility: by convention (though not always in reality), if an experimental result or measurement is reported, it is not really accepted until it has been reproduced by others.


Especially given how often "panel variance" is thrown around in this thread in response to disagreements, it would be good to know whether others have seen the same results before putting at risk a hard-to-reschedule professional calibration.
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post #20229 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I think so but he would say if he wasn't. Listen more carefully

What the standard tone-mapping process does is pretty complicated and it is not simple to understand the trade-offs that have to be made. Vincent has created a very good explanation of that.
It is a good video.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
ARGH! NO! It's nearly always worse. You would not normally need anything "Dynamic". That word is a Red Flag to us video enthusiasts.
Fair enough. My mistake. I guess I think of Dolby Vision and HDR10+ also being dynamic, but I realize now that is for a much different (and better reason.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Please, please, just think of "Dynamic Tone Mapping" in the same way that (I hope) you think of "Dynamic Contrast" and "Vivid mode". Something which completely changes the picture, makes it a long way away from what was intended by the creators, and which you should just turn off, forget about, and never use.

I can't believe it's getting so much discussion
When you put it that way, it really does put into perspective where it sits with things. And no, I don't think much of Dynamic contrast or vivid mode. I would never use either of those.
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post #20230 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I'm actually surprised the HDR Optimizer is Static with how good it is. Is dynamic not always better when it comes to this topic?
As we discussed earlier, dynamic is better, but true dynamic tone mapping, like Dolby Vision - not faked dynamic tone mapping such as the feature under discussion.

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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Still how is the Panasonic HDR able to do it's much more effective tone mapping if it's just static? The way it (For example) only affects the blown out parts of a scene, rather than the whole image would of definitely made me think it was dynamic.
Because that's the way they've designed it, to only affect the higher end. LG's dynamic processing option has more free reign over the image making its changes more dramatic than what you'd find on a Panasonic.

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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I honestly had no idea Panasonic has turned into such a high quality company. Makes me re-think their brand from when I was very young.
They've been at the top of the image quality game for quite some time, their OLEDs are exceptionally accurate out the box. They're also the only company really pushing LG's technology, they just recently released a modified OLED TV that purportedly approaches 1000 nits.

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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
When you say tweak-able version of the tone mapping, what do you mean? What is tweak-able about it on the players? Do you mean being able to choose your display type?
Yes, I mean the ability to pick the output level to which the content is tone-mapped, in order to best cater for the various types of displays it might be coupled to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
And we get a version of their superior Tone Mapping method in the form of the HDR Optimizer on the Panasonic players?
If you're talking about their dynamic tone mapping option, no, you get proper tone-mapping. Don't confuse post-processing with actual dynamic tone mapping systems like Dolby Vision - they are not the same thing.
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Last edited by Ken Masters; 08-13-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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post #20231 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by shadowspawn View Post
Well, this is the AV Science Forums. One of the principles of Science is reproducibility: by convention (though not always in reality), if an experimental result or measurement is reported, it is not really accepted until it has been reproduced by others.
Appreciate that, as a science person myself.

Quote:
Especially given how often "panel variance" is thrown around in this thread in response to disagreements, it would be good to know whether others have seen the same results before putting at risk a hard-to-reschedule professional calibration.
Trouble is, I don't know of anyone else doing the same thing. He overlaid his greyscale graph of different firmwares' "default gamma" curves - taken on the same panel - and they matched up. If you search the thread you'll find them. But none of us can go back to older firmwares any more, if we wanted to repeat the same task.

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post #20232 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Masters View Post
snip Because that's the way they've designed it, to only affect the higher end. LG's dynamic processing option has more free reign over the image making its changes more dramatic than what you'd find on a Panasonic.


They've been at the top of the image quality game for quite some time, their OLEDs are exceptionally accurate out the box. They're also the only company really pushing the technology, they just recently released a modified OLED TV that can purportedly hit 1000 nits.
-snip

If Panasonic started selling this OLED in the US, I'd be ready to buy now. You cannot beat their picture quality out-of-the-box and after udates.
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post #20233 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by boldventure View Post
@chronitis

Any changes on PQ settings for the .03 from the settings you shared for the .55?

Thanks

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk
Yes, there has been a lot of changes. HDR eotf even changed from .02 to .03. LG needs to stop. I calibrated last night and I'm very impressed.
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post #20234 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:48 PM
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Is anybody having black crush problems? When set to the technicolor profile (and any other one, too, actually) there's just a lot of los black detail. Most of the time black clothing actually goes true black and becomes a silhouette, losing all detail.

I need to pump up the brightness slider to 59 to get some of that detail back, however at that point, the overall image is far too bright and very washed out. Not to mention the fact that at that point the panel won't go true-black anymore - even the bars on top and bottom won't dim completely. That obviously defeats the point of having an OLED in the first place.

I checked the brightness calibration video (
) and that confirms my findings. Using the default Technicolor profile only 21-25 flash, the rest is invisible. Only at 59 brightness do I get slight flashing in the 17 band.

Any ideas?

BTW: does anybody know of an HDR version of the calibration video?)

Last edited by CleverBoy; 08-13-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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post #20235 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CleverBoy View Post
Is anybody having black crush problems?

[...]
Only at 59 brightness do I get slight flashing in the 17 band.

Any ideas?
Are you on a firmware version before 5.10.03? All firmwares from 4.10.31 - 4.10.55 had a black crush problem.

Also, you should not be able to see 17 on a test pattern like that. You should only be able to see 17 if you are in a pitch black room, eyes adjusted to the dark for 5 minutes, and it's a single test pattern with only 17 and black on the screen together. And then, you should only be able to barely see it on the threshold of your vision.
But as soon as you put something brighter than 17 on the screen at the same time, it's blown out of the water.

ps there are some very good HDR patterns at http://test.full.band/

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post #20236 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverBoy View Post

BTW: does anybody know of an HDR version of the calibration video?)

This free set has some good HDR pattern:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...terns-set.html


Direct link to the black level ones:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...95S7ck0tvR4yUM
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post #20237 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 01:24 PM
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Drumroll please......It's settings time! Things have changed a lot since I last posted. The EOTF on the tv has changed quite a bit as has the gamma for sdr. I'm targeting dolby and lg recommended white point of .308, .313. I think you'll all agree it looks much better. No more red tint. YMMV. If you like these settings please feel free to donate to my GoFundMe. I recently lost my job due to complications from multiple brain operations, and i'll be needing another operation soon. I'll be going to Johns Hopkins at the end of September. Life hasn't been easy for me or the family. Thankfully I can still enjoy our amazing TV. Here's the link www.gofundme.com/ryanmcfadden85

So without further adieu, here are the settings. Before you enter these make sure you turn off all processing like dynamic tone mapping, noise reduction etc. Leave everything else at default unless mentioned in my settings.

SDR: ISF dark
Oled Light: 39
Sharpness: 0

Warm 2
High: red -1, green -15, blue 0
low: default

20 point wb
5) 5, -2,-1, 3
10) 3, -2, -1, 1
15) 0, -1, -1, 1
20) -1, 0, 1, 2
25) -3, 0, 0, 2
30) -5, 0, 1, 2
35) -5, -1, 0, 2
40) -5, -1,-1, 2
45) -6, -1, 1, 4
50) -2, -3, -1, 2
55) -4, -1, 1, 4
60) -6, -1, 1, 3
65) -2, 0, 2, 3
70) 1, -3, 0, 1
75) -1, -1, 2, 1
80) -6, -2, 2, 0
85) 1, -1, 2, 0
90) -2, -2, 2, -2
95) -1, -1, 2, 2
100) -3, 0, 0, 3

CMS
Red: -10, 4, 0
Green: -1, -14, -1
Blue: -8, 0, 1
Cyan: -11, 0, -1
Magenta: -8, 0, 1
Yellow: -6, 0, -1

HDR: Technicolor expert
2 point
Low: -1, 0, 2
High: 0, -13, 2

Code values:
272) 8, 8, 7
341) 10, 10, 10
409) 14, 13, 13
443) 15, 16, 15
476) 15, 16, 14
494) 14, 14, 11
509) 18, 19, 17
525) 19, 19, 18
539) 10, 10, 9
555) 13, 15, 13
572) 15, 16, 15
587) 13, 14, 15
602) 10, 14, 13
618) 10, 10, 10
635) 5, 8, 7
651) 3, 4, 5
666) -2, 1, 0
682) -3, 6, 2
696) -6, 1, -2

CMS
Red: 0, 0, 24
Green: 24, 0, 14
Blue: 0, 0, 2
Cyan: 6, -10, 3
Magenta: 0, 5, 4
Yellow: 0, -1, 4

HDR game mode color temperature w41

I hope you all enjoy the hard work I've done [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
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Last edited by chronitis; 08-13-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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post #20238 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 01:36 PM
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For those who like graphs, here are some pictures. Delta E is below 1 for everything, particularly SDR, which is on average less than .5 Delta E.
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post #20239 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:16 PM
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Thanks chronitis for all of your hard work. Best of luck to you.

I just took the jump from .15 to .03 OTI (). I checked my settings against my master document and nothing was changed as far as my stored settings go. I use Cinema User for Comcast HDTV only and Technicolor Expert for ATV4k and UHD/BD. As far as network tv goes, it looks the same, at least as far as these old eyes go. I'll use the ATV4k probably tonight but my guess it's going to look the same. I never had any issues with .15 so never had a need to make any of the modifications suggested and/or recommended. The internal test videos (Dolomite and Fiji) still look and sound spectacular. I don't have a meter to dig into the nuts and bolts. So far, so good.
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I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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post #20240 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:23 PM
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I sadly never owned a Plasma and just very recently started hearing about the Kuro Plasmas and how revered they apparently were. I did not know the tech was sold to Panasonic from Pioneer!
The only TV to score a perfect 10.0 from CNET was a Panasonic plaza (the last year Panasonic made a plasma). Then Panasonic went & stopped selling TVs in the US. My son has 1 he scored on the close out sale.
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post #20241 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Trouble is, I don't know of anyone else doing the same thing. He overlaid his greyscale graph of different firmwares' "default gamma" curves - taken on the same panel - and they matched up. If you search the thread you'll find them. But none of us can go back to older firmwares any more, if we wanted to repeat the same task.
You have already 'liked' this post which shows, at least for that user, 05.10.03 is considerably different than 04.10.20 (especially in the low end).

Risking someone else's paid-for calibration on a small sample size is grotesque. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it isn't "proven" yet, as you claim.
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post #20242 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I sadly never owned a Plasma and just very recently started hearing about the Kuro Plasmas and how revered they apparently were. I did not know the tech was sold to Panasonic from Pioneer!
The only TV to score a perfect 10.0 from CNET was a Panasonic plaza (the last year Panasonic made a plasma). Then Panasonic went & stopped selling TVs in the US. My son has 1 he scored on the close out sale.
I've owned 3 plasma's, all great. These OLEDs though....next level stuff
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post #20243 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
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You have already 'liked' this post which shows, at least for that user, 05.10.03 is considerably different than 04.10.20 (especially in the low end).
I was referring to jk82's scans, which were taken on the same day in controlled conditions, before and after the upgrade.

ebr9999's scans in the post to which you refer were taken weeks/months apart so - IMHO - can't be criticised for not matching exactly, and are less useful to illustrate the differences.

Everyone is free to make their own decision, and my memory of the past discussions on this thread - it really does seem like yonks ago by now - is that jk82 was the only person to carry out such a careful experiment between the versions of firmware. Someone else may yet come forward of course, but I would have expected them to do so at the time.
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post #20244 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronitis View Post
I've owned 3 plasma's, all great. These OLEDs though....next level stuff
I do love my OLED. I had wanted one for literally years and finally got one late last year. I never thought I would be this crazy about a TV, getting it professionally calibrated and all that.

My wife just sits in the corner shaking her head disapprovingly while muttering "Our old TV was fine."
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post #20245 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Masters View Post
As we discussed earlier, dynamic is better, but true dynamic tone mapping, like Dolby Vision - not faked dynamic tone mapping such as the feature under discussion.



Because that's the way they've designed it, to only affect the higher end. LG's dynamic processing option has more free reign over the image making its changes more dramatic than what you'd find on a Panasonic.



They've been at the top of the image quality game for quite some time, their OLEDs are exceptionally accurate out the box. They're also the only company really pushing LG's technology, they just recently released a modified OLED TV that purportedly approaches 1000 nits.



Yes, I mean the ability to pick the output level to which the content is tone-mapped, in order to best cater for the various types of displays it might be coupled to.



If you're talking about their dynamic tone mapping option, no, you get proper tone-mapping. Don't confuse post-processing with actual dynamic tone mapping systems like Dolby Vision - they are not the same thing.
Thank you as always for your information and replies, I appreciate yours (and everyone's). I have a much better understanding of this topic now.
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post #20246 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I was referring to jk82's scans, which were taken on the same day in controlled conditions, before and after the upgrade.

ebr9999's scans in the post to which you refer were taken weeks/months apart so - IMHO - can't be criticised for not matching exactly, and are less useful to illustrate the differences.

Everyone is free to make their own decision, and my memory of the past discussions on this thread - it really does seem like yonks ago by now - is that jk82 was the only person to carry out such a careful experiment between the versions of firmware. Someone else may yet come forward of course, but I would have expected them to do so at the time.
Despite the warnings, a lot of people seem to have updated without knowing about the downgrade option being blocked. This could explain why we don't have a larger sample size. I would have been one to keep it on the screen if I hadn't been the 'guinea pig'. I suppose you didn't do it as you have the ability to recalibrate yourself?

As for shadowspawn, they were specifically looking for a definitive answer, and saying it's "proven" might make them update without thinking twice. I think we haven't had it proven yet, and more care should be taken by those upgrading from an older calibrated firmware due to the one-way situation we're currently in.
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post #20247 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by chronitis View Post
Drumroll please......It's settings time! Things have changed a lot since I last posted. The EOTF on the tv has changed quite a bit as has the gamma for sdr. I'm targeting dolby and lg recommended white point of .308, .313. I think you'll all agree it looks much better. No more red tint. YMMV. If you like these settings please feel free to donate to my GoFundMe. I recently lost my job due to complications from multiple brain operations, and i'll be needing another operation soon. I'll be going to Johns Hopkins at the end of September. Life hasn't been easy for me or the family. Thankfully I can still enjoy our amazing TV. Here's the link www.gofundme.com/ryanmcfadden85

So without further adieu, here are the settings. Before you enter these make sure you turn off all processing like dynamic tone mapping, noise reduction etc. Leave everything else at default unless mentioned in my settings.

SDR: ISF dark
Oled Light: 39
Sharpness: 0

Warm 2
High: red -1, green -15, blue 0
low: default

20 point wb
5) 5, -2,-1, 3
10) 3, -2, -1, 1
15) 0, -1, -1, 1
20) -1, 0, 1, 2
25) -3, 0, 0, 2
30) -5, 0, 1, 2
35) -5, -1, 0, 2
40) -5, -1,-1, 2
45) -6, -1, 1, 4
50) -2, -3, -1, 2
55) -4, -1, 1, 4
60) -6, -1, 1, 3
65) -2, 0, 2, 3
70) 1, -3, 0, 1
75) -1, -1, 2, 1
80) -6, -2, 2, 0
85) 1, -1, 2, 0
90) -2, -2, 2, -2
95) -1, -1, 2, 2
100) -3, 0, 0, 3

CMS
Red: -10, 4, 0
Green: -1, -14, -1
Blue: -8, 0, 1
Cyan: -11, 0, -1
Magenta: -8, 0, 1
Yellow: -6, 0, -1

HDR: Technicolor expert
2 point
Low: -1, 0, 2
High: 0, -13, 2

Code values:
272) 8, 8, 7
341) 10, 10, 10
409) 14, 13, 13
443) 15, 16, 15
476) 15, 16, 14
494) 14, 14, 11
509) 18, 19, 17
525) 19, 19, 18
539) 10, 10, 9
555) 13, 15, 13
572) 15, 16, 15
587) 13, 14, 15
602) 10, 14, 13
618) 10, 10, 10
635) 5, 8, 7
651) 3, 4, 5
666) -2, 1, 0
682) -3, 6, 2
696) -6, 1, -2

CMS
Red: 0, 0, 24
Green: 24, 0, 14
Blue: 0, 0, 2
Cyan: 6, -10, 3
Magenta: 0, 5, 4
Yellow: 0, -1, 4

HDR game mode color temperature w41

I hope you all enjoy the hard work I've done [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


Sorry to hear about your health issues , I wish you the best.


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post #20248 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by holdemphil View Post
Despite the warnings, a lot of people seem to have updated without knowing about the downgrade option being blocked. This could explain why we don't have a larger sample size. I would have been one to keep it on the screen if I hadn't been the 'guinea pig'. I suppose you didn't do it as you have the ability to recalibrate yourself?
It was partly that. I had my own calibration LUTs in most of the picture modes, so I wouldn't have been able to . jk82 compared factory-default curves in each firmware which is what most people would have as their baseline. I would have had to do a full factory reset to be able to do the same, and that would mean having to re-do the calibrations.

But mainly, having followed the discussion at the time, I was satisfied that with what I'd seen and didn't feel the need to investigate more. All too late now unfortunately.

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post #20249 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 04:06 PM
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I just rechecked my measurements and between 04.10.15, 05.10.00, 05.10.02 and 05.10.03 there are only very minor gamma differences which I assume are just a result of slight panel drift, especially since all these measurements haven't been taken on the same day.

I only did a 20 point grayscale sweep for these comparisons and I think overall LG brought the gamma back to where it was before but due to the stronger near-black dithering which mostly affects the below 5% range I think depending on panel variance there might very well be some changes there.

I didn't measure the near-black range for these comparisons because I wanted to do it at default settings and my panel is insanely too dark below 5% when using default settings so I can't even measure that with my meter. This panel has always been like that even with older firmwares and getting the below 5% range right has always given me trouble.
In hindsight it would've probably been better had I done these comparisons using my calibrated settings including near-black measurements but it's too late for that now thanks to LGs downgrade block.
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post #20250 of 22207 Old 08-13-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
I do love my OLED. I had wanted one for literally years and finally got one late last year. I never thought I would be this crazy about a TV, getting it professionally calibrated and all that.

My wife just sits in the corner shaking her head disapprovingly while muttering "Our old TV was fine."
She doesn't understand. Don't worry, we do :-)

@chronitis , definitely all the best to you.
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