2018 LG C8-E8 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 687 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20581 of 21156 Old 08-24-2019, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan View Post
I have mine at 15 for SDR DIRECTV !
Did D-Nice set it at 15 or did you do that after he left?
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post #20582 of 21156 Old 08-24-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
Did D-Nice set it at 15 or did you do that after he left?
He did . For watching DIRECTV only.
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post #20583 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 05:19 AM
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My Directv is at 15 also.

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post #20584 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Normally it says "Some apps are available for update", so if you go to the LG Content Shop you can press the "update" button in My Apps.

Also, there is actually a Notifications App (it's Yellow in the apps bar on the bottom of the screen). This lists them all. I've just gone into mine to get the exact wording of "Some apps are available for update" for example
Thank you. The App was the better way to check.
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post #20585 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan View Post
He did . For watching DIRECTV only.
So, when you watch a Blu-ray (for example) do you switch to another Picture Mode (with Sharpness at 0) or actually change the Sharpness setting on that same Picture Mode?
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post #20586 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 09:59 AM
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Not everybody keeps their phone down their pants so they can whip it out when needed .
My ex-wife said I have nothing down my pants. Hence she is my ex-wife !
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post #20587 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post


Hi, good summary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Wifi-spy's whitepoint: x=0.3073 y=0.3214 [perceptual match with a CRT]

That custom white point was for 2017 LG OLED.

About the Sony custom White Point, its useful for matching the D65 of the Reference CRT (CMF 1931) with the White of Sony RGB OLED, these specific RGB OLED models:

Sony BVM-E250/F250/E170/F170 From Version 1.21 or over.
Sony PVM-2541/1741From Serial No. 3100001 or over.
Sony PVM-741 From Serial No. 3000001 (initial serial no.) or over.

But its always better to use a reference spectro and a (CRT or Plasma) at home, to perform your own perceptual matching.

JETI Study where its explaining also the weakness of Sony method with xy offsets and recommending to use Perceptual Matching: https://www.jeti.com/cms/images/jeti...s/lux_2017.pdf

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post #20588 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
So, when you watch a Blu-ray (for example) do you switch to another Picture Mode (with Sharpness at 0) or actually change the Sharpness setting on that same Picture Mode?
since it has been calibrated I have only watched 4K Blu-rays and it switches into either DV or HDR modes automatically. I guess if I watch a regular blu-Ray I would back it down to 0. But I usually watch 4K Blu-rays.
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post #20589 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by chronitis View Post
You're wrong about LG not mentioning a proper white point. It's a reference, not preference. It fixes the metameric failure of woled TV's.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Gamut_Displays

Everything else you said I've heard a hundred times. When you change the whitepoint it also changes the color coordinates. That requires some additional adjustments with the CMS. I don't see problems in real world content, so I'm cool with it. As far as HDR goes, most content is mastered well below 1000 nits, so I don't see any problems there either. Like I said in my post, ymmv
Hi,

Thats only a study, its nothing reference.

Just LG Electronics with Dolby Laboratories published study during SID's Display Week 2018, its available inside the SID Symposium Digest of Technical Papers - Volume 49, Issue 1 (May 2018) issue.

For that study, 'Correcting Metameric Failure of Wide Color Gamut Displays', using 13 reliable observers they performed a visual color matching trying to match a Reference Grade-1 CRT with the LG OLED (as we know Sony use WRGB panel from LGE) and they found that to perceptual match the Reference (CRT) White, a custom White Point with x: 0.308 y: 0.313 coordinates has to be used.

You can't fix metameric failure because its not available a global fix of CMF for the metameric failure problem which will work for all people because there differences from observer to observer.

Industry is using CMF1931 study performed with CRT, so before 88 years, for displays with 3 primaries, WOLED has 4 primaries (subpixels), think that Sony X300 (+50K$) RGB OLED, the reference monitor used most of the times for HDR/DV mastering has been discontinued and Sony replaced it with new LCD tech, so even in post-production, they are moving away from OLED (RGB), here in consumer area, the the WRGB OLED's are right now the best we can buy, right now.

Earlier studies intended to correct historical imperfections in the original data used as the basis of the CIE 1931 CMFs, but like the CIE 1964 Supplementary Standard Observer, have never found widespread favor, because they result in different numbers across the whole colorspace.

Color scientists attempted to define a more accurate CMF but they resulted in a set of CMFs which can solve the metamerism issue for discrete populations of individuals but this would probably not be practical in an operational environment.

These inaccuracies were not a problem when all display devices were CRTs with color reproduction based on very similar phosphors (like Plasma).

With the introduction of LCD displays with LED backlights, and now OLED displays, it has become apparent that these errors result in displays where the white points match when measured may look different, and when matched visually may measure differently.

For Matching Displays that use Different Illumination Technologies, the Perceptual White Point Matching method is the only way to resolve right now.

Even newer studies, like CIE2012, they don't resolve the observer to observer variations:

http://www.cvrl.org/database/text/ci...ie2012xyz2.htm

http://www.cvrl.org/ciexyzpr.htm

There also study about Individual Observer Color Matching Function, but its not easy for anyone to perform at home: Individual Colorimetric Observer Model


For HDR, there no any study talking for what white point should be used for REC.2020 D65, which is not the same as REC.709 D65.

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Originally Posted by chronitis View Post
Everything else you said I've heard a hundred times. When you change the whitepoint it also changes the color coordinates. That requires some additional adjustments with the CMS. I don't see problems in real world content, so I'm cool with it. As far as HDR goes, most content is mastered well below 1000 nits, so I don't see any problems there either. Like I said in my post, ymmv
When you create custom colorspace with custom White Point, the Luminance of Primaries will be re-adjusted in ratio according to your xy of White Point, the xy of Primaries are not moved, just the ratio per Y required to create 'White' will be changed.

The secondaries targets will change xyY targets when you use a custom white point, all these are re-calculated automatically by the calibration software when you will create a custom colorspace and use it later as target colorspace.
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post #20590 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 12:18 PM
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so I just got my TV calibrated by the geek squad and he ruined the picture quality in HDR/DV. He calibrated everything in SDR and picture actually looks great but when I asked him about HDR/DV, he said that would be the same calibration settings.
I was confused because there is no bright/dark mode in HDR and even in DV, so I let him copy and paste the calibration settings.

The picture became instantly washed out losing all the shadow details and with grey black bars. When I told him that, he said: '' well I see more details in the background and skin tone has less red''.
so I had to show him exactly the same scene on the 1080p BD with his SDR calibration(which wasn't washed out at all) to prove him wrong.



then he suggested to turn off hdr and let my bluray player convert HDR to SDR with his calibration setting.. man what an idiot, never get your TV calibrated by Best Buy.



so am I right to think the calibration for SDR and HDR cannot be the same?

And does anyone know a good TV calibrator in the Montreal Quebec area ?? Best Buy rep said no one else was doing calibration in the whole province, I highly doubt that.

thanks and sorry for my English.
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post #20591 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
so I just got my TV calibrated by the geek squad and he ruined the picture quality in HDR/DV. He calibrated everything in SDR and picture actually looks great but when I asked him about HDR/DV, he said that would be the same calibration settings.
I was confused because there is no bright/dark mode in HDR and even in DV, so I let him copy and paste the calibration settings.

The picture became instantly washed out losing all the shadow details and with grey black bars. When I told him that, he said: '' well I see more details in the background and skin tone has less red''.
so I had to show him exactly the same scene on the 1080p BD with his SDR calibration(which wasn't washed out at all) to prove him wrong.



then he suggested to turn off hdr and let my bluray player convert HDR to SDR with his calibration setting.. man what an idiot, never get your TV calibrated by Best Buy.



so am I right to think the calibration for SDR and HDR cannot be the same?

And does anyone know a good TV calibrator in the Montreal Quebec area ?? Best Buy rep said no one else was doing calibration in the whole province, I highly doubt that.

thanks and sorry for my English.


Yes there no correlation between the sdr and hdr settings, they are completely independent of each other . Get your money back .


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post #20592 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan View Post
since it has been calibrated I have only watched 4K Blu-rays and it switches into either DV or HDR modes automatically. I guess if I watch a regular blu-Ray I would back it down to 0. But I usually watch 4K Blu-rays.
I have at least 100 UHD Blu-rays in my library, but I still rent a fair number of 1080p Blu-rays from Redbox (and then I write reviews for them on the PQ Thread). I think I'm going to see what Sharpness at 15 (or 10) looks like with Dish Network programming and if does indeed add some "clarity" and "pop" to it without introducing an artifacts, I'll keep it at that and then do a quick change for 1080p Blu-ray viewing.
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post #20593 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, good summary.
Thanks Ted!

Quote:
That custom white point was for 2017 LG OLED.

About the Sony custom White Point, its useful for matching the D65 of the Reference CRT (CMF 1931) with the White of Sony RGB OLED, these specific RGB OLED models:

Sony BVM-E250/F250/E170/F170 From Version 1.21 or over.
Sony PVM-2541/1741From Serial No. 3100001 or over.
Sony PVM-741 From Serial No. 3000001 (initial serial no.) or over.
Indeed.

Quote:
But its always better to use a reference spectro and a (CRT or Plasma) at home, to perform your own perceptual matching.
Sure. But 99.9999% of people cannot do that.

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post #20594 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
so I just got my TV calibrated by the geek squad and he ruined the picture quality in HDR/DV. He calibrated everything in SDR and picture actually looks great but when I asked him about HDR/DV, he said that would be the same calibration settings.
I was confused because there is no bright/dark mode in HDR and even in DV, so I let him copy and paste the calibration settings.

The picture became instantly washed out losing all the shadow details and with grey black bars. When I told him that, he said: '' well I see more details in the background and skin tone has less red''.
so I had to show him exactly the same scene on the 1080p BD with his SDR calibration(which wasn't washed out at all) to prove him wrong.



then he suggested to turn off hdr and let my bluray player convert HDR to SDR with his calibration setting.. man what an idiot, never get your TV calibrated by Best Buy.



so am I right to think the calibration for SDR and HDR cannot be the same?

And does anyone know a good TV calibrator in the Montreal Quebec area ?? Best Buy rep said no one else was doing calibration in the whole province, I highly doubt that.

thanks and sorry for my English.
Sorry about your calibration. That's one of the reasons why most of us do not recommend a calibration by BB.
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post #20595 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
so I just got my TV calibrated by the geek squad and he ruined the picture quality in HDR/DV. He calibrated everything in SDR and picture actually looks great but when I asked him about HDR/DV, he said that would be the same calibration settings.
I was confused because there is no bright/dark mode in HDR and even in DV, so I let him copy and paste the calibration settings.

The picture became instantly washed out losing all the shadow details and with grey black bars. When I told him that, he said: '' well I see more details in the background and skin tone has less red''.
so I had to show him exactly the same scene on the 1080p BD with his SDR calibration(which wasn't washed out at all) to prove him wrong.



then he suggested to turn off hdr and let my bluray player convert HDR to SDR with his calibration setting.. man what an idiot, never get your TV calibrated by Best Buy.
Three years ago I purchased the Sony Flagship LCD/LED display (the 940D) from Best Buy and as the Geek Squad was unpacking it and setting it up the main guy turned to me and said, "I'm also an ISF-Certified Calibrator. Would you like me to come back after you break your set in to calibrate it." I knew my answer would be "No" but I responded by asking him, "So, what is all involved in your calibration?" He rightly said that he would be changing the settings to match industry standards for Gray-Scale, Color, etc. and then he said, "I will also be turning off all post-processing gimmicks including the Full Array Back-light." My jaw just about dropped when he said that and I said, "You would turn off the FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) system when that is the main feature that gives an LCD decent black levels?" Without a blush he said, "You don't really need the FALD for good black levels." I chuckled heartily (inside) and simply said, "No thank you."

Some in the Geek Squad "may" be ISF-Certified, but one wonders if they became certified via a quick online program without any real hands-on training with the real equipment and software necessary to perform a professional calibration. With Best Buy one must remember the old adage, "You get what you pay for!"

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post #20596 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 04:33 PM
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I came on here to look for reviews of the newest firmware but I don't see many. Is that because most people Haven't been pushed out the newest update buy LG yet? Waiting to hear how it compares to Old .15 firmware. if I do update, will I still be able to roll back firmware with sure app?
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post #20597 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by leiff View Post
I came on here to look for reviews of the newest firmware but I don't see many. Is that because most people Haven't been pushed out the newest update buy LG yet? Waiting to hear how it compares to Old .15 firmware. if I do update, will I still be able to roll back firmware with sure app?
I updated last week from .15 to .03. I never had any issues with the .15 firmware and everything appears to be ok with .03 as well. PQ is as it has always been, which is excellent, but I don't have any meter to dig down and see what, if anything changed from .15. I don't think you can roll back once you apply .03.
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post #20598 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by leiff View Post
I came on here to look for reviews of the newest firmware but I don't see many. Is that because most people Haven't been pushed out the newest update buy LG yet? Waiting to hear how it compares to Old .15 firmware. if I do update, will I still be able to roll back firmware with sure app?
Look through the past pages, there are plenty of comments.

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post #20599 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrocker23 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by leiff View Post
I came on here to look for reviews of the newest firmware but I don't see many. Is that because most people Haven't been pushed out the newest update buy LG yet? Waiting to hear how it compares to Old .15 firmware. if I do update, will I still be able to roll back firmware with sure app?
Look through the past pages, there are plenty of comments.

TV - LG C9, C8 & C6 - AVR - Pioneer SC-LX502, Xbox One X, PS4 Pro & Switch
Why not just give your opinion if you're going to bother to respond.

I don't mean any disrespect. Many people are not in the loop and searching the thread for a answer that is agreed upon is a rabbit hole wrapped in a enigma. 🙂
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post #20600 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 07:19 PM
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Glad it went well. Did he use his own profile from his C8? He did that with me. I didn’t know that was an option before he did mine. I guess it saves a lot of time.

How long was he there?
Sorry for the slow reply. Since the firmware update and getting calibrated I’m not stopping by here as often.

He mentioned that he had the same set at home. He used CalMan software on his laptop with a pattern generator and a meter. I didn’t ask what models he used. He ran some tests then showed me the graphs explaining where they deviated from ideal and how much better it would look after calibration. He ran SDR patterns to calibrate ISF Light and Dark. He had patterns for both HDR and Dolby Vision which he used to set Cinema (user).

After he finished running the software he had some Blu-Rays he played. He watched certain scenes to check the results. He spent a little over 4 1/2 hours.

He did such a good job even the 49ers looked decent last night.
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post #20601 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
so I just got my TV calibrated by the geek squad and he ruined the picture quality in HDR/DV. He calibrated everything in SDR and picture actually looks great but when I asked him about HDR/DV, he said that would be the same calibration settings.
I was confused because there is no bright/dark mode in HDR and even in DV, so I let him copy and paste the calibration settings.

The picture became instantly washed out losing all the shadow details and with grey black bars. When I told him that, he said: '' well I see more details in the background and skin tone has less red''.
so I had to show him exactly the same scene on the 1080p BD with his SDR calibration(which wasn't washed out at all) to prove him wrong.



then he suggested to turn off hdr and let my bluray player convert HDR to SDR with his calibration setting.. man what an idiot, never get your TV calibrated by Best Buy.



so am I right to think the calibration for SDR and HDR cannot be the same?

And does anyone know a good TV calibrator in the Montreal Quebec area ?? Best Buy rep said no one else was doing calibration in the whole province, I highly doubt that.

thanks and sorry for my English.

I have been preaching this on this thread since I joined. A nightmare they are. It was a little bit of work, but I got a refund from Best Buy through their District Manager. Social Media can work wonders! Blast away on their Best Buy forums and Facebook!
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post #20602 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FairfaxCA View Post
Sorry for the slow reply. Since the firmware update and getting calibrated I’m not stopping by here as often.

He mentioned that he had the same set at home. He used CalMan software on his laptop with a pattern generator and a meter. I didn’t ask what models he used. He ran some tests then showed me the graphs explaining where they deviated from ideal and how much better it would look after calibration. He ran SDR patterns to calibrate ISF Light and Dark. He had patterns for both HDR and Dolby Vision which he used to set Cinema (user).

After he finished running the software he had some Blu-Rays he played. He watched certain scenes to check the results. He spent a little over 4 1/2 hours.

He did such a good job even the 49ers looked decent last night.
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post #20603 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 08:34 PM
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Fyi,

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post #20604 of 21156 Old 08-25-2019, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Glad it went well. Did he use his own profile from his C8? He did that with me. I didn’t know that was an option before he did mine. I guess it saves a lot of time.

How long was he there?
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HEY HEY HEY, be nice. I bleed red and gold! All the way back to when Brodie was a starter!
I was using the DeBartalo era as guage plus the picture on the LG. I go back a bit also. I bowled with Joe Perry shortly after he retired, I was in high school.
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post #20605 of 21156 Old 08-26-2019, 02:34 AM
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I came on here to look for reviews of the newest firmware but I don't see many. Is that because most people Haven't been pushed out the newest update buy LG yet? Waiting to hear how it compares to Old .15 firmware. if I do update, will I still be able to roll back firmware with sure app?
You won't be able to roll-back. I have run some meausurents in SDR default expert modes, and what I can tell is that is much better than .55, but not 100% on pair on .15 in near black data, mostly for the Technicolor mode.. Who has ran similar measurements, is more positive, but he had some cricitcity in its reading at low IRE. All that discussion is limited to to the Techincolor mode (the one with lowest luminance). Unluckily, measurement like, we are only two following that approach, and we cannot roll-back for further checks.


General speaking I see people happy with 05.10.03, as .15 issues are solved not introducing side effects. I have seen (and verified) good smoothing (you have to enable it).

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post #20606 of 21156 Old 08-26-2019, 02:46 AM
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I came on here to look for reviews of the newest firmware but I don't see many. Is that because most people Haven't been pushed out the newest update buy LG yet?
No I'd say it's because most people have it by now.

90% of the discussion about its changes to the gamma curve and fixes for the "black crush" problems of 4.10.31 and 4.10.55, was in the period from the start of May when it was first available via the Engineering download, through to the end of July when it was first available for public download.

Most of us are weary and exhausted from discussing the same thing over and over for 7 months. IMHO the "lack of posts" (actually there have been hundreds) is because it's all finally over, it's pretty much sorted, nothing left to say, and we've - finally - been able to move on. It's a relief.

Quote:
Waiting to hear how it compares to Old .15 firmware.
There are many bugfixes, not all of which make it only LG's changelog.

The most important change for visible picture quality is the clever work-around for the near-black chroma overshoot problem inherent in the 2018 and 2019 LG Display OLED panel hardware. A work-around that owners of Sony, Philips and Panasonic OLED TVs will not be getting.

The "black crush" problems of 4.10.31 and 4.10.55, which probably led you to hold off from installing those versions, is not present. See jk82's posts with his scans if you seek more proof.

The short answer is that our 7-month wait for a resolution to the near-black chroma overshoot problem is finally over. Well, 8-month wait in your case

Quote:
if I do update, will I still be able to roll back firmware with sure app?
That's a FAQ, and the answer is (still) no.

HTH
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post #20607 of 21156 Old 08-26-2019, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post
Why not just give your opinion if you're going to bother to respond.

I don't mean any disrespect.
You may not have meant it, but it comes across to me as very disrespectful. @Jrocker23 's post was absolutely fine, and - if I may say so - very restrained. Those of us who read the thread regularly have had 7 months of FAQs, and you just need to accept that everyone is very tired and not willing to double the size of the thread (worsening the problem for future searches) responding to FAQs each time they are re-asked. My earlier reply above this was my compromise: pointers to where to look.
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Last edited by mrtickleuk; 08-26-2019 at 02:59 AM.
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post #20608 of 21156 Old 08-26-2019, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post
Why not just give your opinion if you're going to bother to respond.

I don't mean any disrespect. Many people are not in the loop and searching the thread for a answer that is agreed upon is a rabbit hole wrapped in a enigma. 🙂
In regards to my comment, I didn't give my opinion (review) because I didn't have or at least didn't notice most of the issues on my set as others had.

I was also on the engineering firmware a lot.

I read your comment and it sounded like you wanted multiple reviews to read so I simply stated to look at past comments.

The search feature would have showed you most if not all of your answers by just typing in the firmware #.

The thing that stuck out from your comment was the part were you said you looked around and didn't see much. Which at least to me, made me think you really didn't look, because we beat this thead to a pulp with conversation over the newest firmware as well as the last few firmwares including engineering mode firmware.

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post #20609 of 21156 Old 08-26-2019, 06:47 AM
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Do you need arc? if If not turn off hdmi control and use optical back to the soundbar. I have problems when I enable arc on the tv with my Yamaha receiver .



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Unfortunately I do need the arc. I use it for my Apple TV 4K to bring atmos to the sound bar.

Any other ideas?
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post #20610 of 21156 Old 08-26-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Unfortunately I do need the arc. I use it for my Apple TV 4K to bring atmos to the sound bar.



Any other ideas?


I think the hdmi control is causing your issue, assuming your soundbar doesn’t pass hdr 10 and dv?


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