2018 LG C8-E8 Owners' Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 704 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21091 of 21701 Old 09-17-2019, 10:09 PM
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^you're gonna get varied responses on this...but for me I keep tru-motion off.
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post #21092 of 21701 Old 09-17-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I can't argue with what you see. It is what it is. I just don't see it (and no, I'm not confusing stutter with judder) so either it doesn't happen on my C8 or I'm just not sensitive to it. Either way, it's not an issue for us.
Stutter on OLEDs can be scientifically explained. You don't have a magical stutter-free C8, it happens on your TV too, you are just not sensitive to it, which is good. In any case, it bothers enough people for manufacturers to address it moving forward.
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post #21093 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 01:16 AM
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Just tape it to the ceiling. You aren't using that space anyhow, right?
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post #21094 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by H00D4M4N View Post
Seriously, it's not hard to make something OPTIONAL and if it is too complicated for the devs to do that then DON'T INCLUDE SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY MAKES THINGS LOOK WORSE. The sheer amount of fake motion-smoothing seen in TVs at the store these days is utterly mind-boggling. If people like soap opera effects, that's fine, it's their choice. However, if they want it, they should have to turn it on -- not the other way around. It should be OFF by default.
You have to know that this setting works exactly the other way around, meaning what you described is completely false. If you never had an LG TV in the past 10 years then it's understandable
From this post:

From @janos666 : this setting actually works in a reverse way.
- if it's On: it doesn't touch the 23p/24p material and displays every frame on its 120Hz panel 5 times
- if it's Off: it results in judder by doing 2:3 pulldown with 23p/24p material -> getting 60p -> then doubling the framerate to reach 120Hz. It also increases the input lag this time. It can be used with 60Hz broadcast to do inverse-telecine to get 24p.

So, if you use 23/24p content then switch it On: meaning video fps will be untouched.

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Originally Posted by MrKiller View Post
Stuttering on these OLEDs becomes more apparent with Real Cinema enabled. What is eliminated with Real Cinema is pulldown judder, maybe you're confusing judder with stutter. Obviously, motion perception varies from person to person, so for some of us its more of an annoyance... If you have Netflix, go to the 4minute mark of the movie RED where there is a slow panning shot.

At the end of the day the viewer has to chose between stutter or judder. The comprise is TrueMotion at low settings, but then you get into territory of soap opera effect and artifacts showing up, which is worse than the stutter.

I've gotten used to the stutter after a few weeks but certain shots like slow pans are still brutal.
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Originally Posted by Luiz Felipe Franco Garcia View Post
I know it depends on the frame-rate. The stuttering in panning scenes with this setting enable is a deal breaker for me and also for others, turning it off makes a BIG difference.
I understand that it can be an issue for you. But my point is (and that's why I quoted MrKiller's reply above) that if you watch 23/24p content with it On for couple of months then your mind will get used to the technically correct setting (similarly if you watch calibrated screens for a while). I wouldn't watch anything anymore that has judder, after 15 years watching them (all LG TVs) without it

In summary, we have to distinguish between judder and stutter: read through these 2 pages and watch those videos as well.
Rephrasing the tagline of After Earth: Stutter is real, Judder is a choice.

So, it's disabled on purpose with certain contents: in this way the user can't set it to a technically incorrect way.
As @jk82 mentioned, it can have its own use cases but it's so rare that an average user won't need it ever.

Just try to use it with the On settings for couple of months after that you won't be able to go back to Off setting
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post #21095 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 06:05 AM
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Updated to the new 5.xx.xx firmware from 4.15.

Worst decision I have ever made. LG also toned down upscaling performance in this patch, it's terrible it's like I am watching another TV!

Sad part I can't even downgrade the firmware anymore

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post #21096 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 07:41 AM
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Is there any solution to downgrade firmware 5

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post #21097 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by hamad138 View Post
Updated to the new 5.xx.xx firmware from 4.15.

Worst decision I have ever made. LG also toned down upscaling performance in this patch, it's terrible it's like I am watching another TV!

Sad part I can't even downgrade the firmware anymore

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No upscaling problems on my set are you sure you haven’t changed settings ? That would be pretty big news if true and I suspect it would have been previously reported .


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post #21098 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 07:49 AM
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You can downgrade by buying a used mainboard with a lower FW on ebay.
There are some for like $50. They usually don't mention what firmware is on it though.


I also don't think that anything regarding upscaling was changed.
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post #21099 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
You have to know that this setting works exactly the other way around, meaning what you described is completely false. If you never had an LG TV in the past 10 years then it's understandable
From this post:

From @janos666 : this setting actually works in a reverse way.
- if it's On: it doesn't touch the 23p/24p material and displays every frame on its 120Hz panel 5 times
- if it's Off: it results in judder by doing 2:3 pulldown with 23p/24p material -> getting 60p -> then doubling the framerate to reach 120Hz. It also increases the input lag this time. It can be used with 60Hz broadcast to do inverse-telecine to get 24p.

So, if you use 23/24p content then switch it On: meaning video fps will be untouched.




I understand that it can be an issue for you. But my point is (and that's why I quoted MrKiller's reply above) that if you watch 23/24p content with it On for couple of months then your mind will get used to the technically correct setting (similarly if you watch calibrated screens for a while). I wouldn't watch anything anymore that has judder, after 15 years watching them (all LG TVs) without it

In summary, we have to distinguish between judder and stutter: read through these 2 pages and watch those videos as well.
Rephrasing the tagline of After Earth: Stutter is real, Judder is a choice.

So, it's disabled on purpose with certain contents: in this way the user can't set it to a technically incorrect way.
As @jk82 mentioned, it can have its own use cases but it's so rare that an average user won't need it ever.

Just try to use it with the On settings for couple of months after that you won't be able to go back to Off setting
Don't call me a liar. I know what I saw on MY LG B6 and it was BETTER WITH REAL CINEMA OFF (at least when it was possible to turn it off). When you can't, IT'S AWFUL. Maybe it's a defective line or maybe LG has gotten better at it since then, but the fact is it sucks and should be optional. It drove me bonkers for over a year until I couldn't take it anymore and went out and bought a Panasonic. And that unit must have been defective as well because it was doing a similar thing although not quite as bad and at least I was able to return that one. Ended up buying the Sony XBR-65A9F and am happy with it.

Still though, even the Sony has both Motionflow and Cinemotion on by default which is annoying as hell because most places (like rtings) say to turn it off. Occasionally I may put Cinemotion on if I think I'm getting weird movement and it helps, but both on at the same time, even with Motionflow on minimum, creates a noticeable soap opera effect for me.

Doesn't matter if it's "technically correct" either, that's not the way we've been viewing TVs since TVs were created and for some of us it's impossible to get used to.

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post #21100 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 08:31 AM
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Agreed, and I usually do but the size of the box for the 77C8 is just a step too far.
I have 85" screens, I kept the boxes as in the end what would I do with that space anyway.......

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Just tape it to the ceiling. You aren't using that space anyhow, right?
lol, right

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For those of us in areas that you weren’t able to feasibly visit for a calibration what basic settings would be closest to your calibration? Technicolor default at Warm 1 or ISF Dark with Red at -8 and Blue at -5 in the white balance.
D-Nice has been known to make a west coast trip.........
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post #21101 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 08:33 AM
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Just try to use it with the On settings for couple of months after that you won't be able to go back to Off setting
I don't know if different TVs will behave differently but there is just no way i can watch 24fps content with this setting on, i will never get used to that. Maybe it is my perception but i am glad i solved my problem by disabling it.

I can live with a little juddering but the stuttering was driving me crazy, it was too distracting. I have both a LED and a Plasma at home as well and i have never seen such a horrible motion issue before.
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post #21102 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 08:40 AM
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D-Nice has been known to make a west coast trip.........
We discussed a visit but he needed other calibrations in the area to make it work and it didn't pan out unfortunately.
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post #21103 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 08:56 AM
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I don't know if different TVs will behave differently but there is just no way i can watch 24fps content with this setting on, i will never get used to that. Maybe it is my perception but i am glad i solved my problem by disabling it.

I can live with a little juddering but the stuttering was driving me crazy, it was too distracting. I have both a LED and a Plasma at home as well and i have never seen such a horrible motion issue before.

You aren't alone. I see it too and can't get used to it either. And it's super-annoying when people tell us we're wrong when we're not.

Maybe they can't see it, which is understandable since we don't see things always the same (some people wear glasses, some don't, etc.), but that doesn't mean the problem is nonexistent. It's a real issue and we aren't the only ones so I wish people would stop telling us that we're wrong or will get used to it after a while because that's not a very good answer. I mean, some people have "gotten used to" heavy soap opera effects with motion setting set to max after a while too (you see it in their YouTube videos and it's maddening) and that's not the way the movies are supposed to look. It makes the films look like you're standing around on the set watching it get made.
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post #21104 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:04 AM
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I have 85" screens, I kept the boxes as in the end what would I do with that space anyw.........
Nah, I'm reserving the ceiling space for when Atmos expands to 16 ceiling speakers.
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post #21105 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:05 AM
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You aren't alone. I see it too and can't get used to it either. And it's super-annoying when people tell us we're wrong when we're not.



Maybe they can't see it, which is understandable since we don't see things always the same (some people wear glasses, some don't, etc.), but that doesn't mean the problem is nonexistent. It's a real issue and we aren't the only ones so I wish people would stop telling us that we're wrong or will get used to it after a while because that's not a very good answer. I mean, some people have "gotten used to" heavy soap opera effects with motion setting set to max after a while too (you see it in their YouTube videos and it's maddening) and that's not the way the movies are supposed to look. It makes the films look like you're standing around on the set watching it get made.
I love the effect makes everything look 3D!

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post #21106 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:10 AM
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I love the effect makes everything look 3D!

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There's a difference between 3D though and motion settings on max because 3D immerses you into the movie, while motion settings make it look cheap (soap operas) or unfinished.
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post #21107 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:13 AM
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There's a difference between 3D though and motion settings on max because 3D immerses you into the movie, while motion settings make it look cheap (soap operas) or unfinished.
To each their own I always say. I love the effect simple as that. My wife can't tell a difference long as thier is a picture on the screen she doesn't care.

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post #21108 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:26 AM
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The only reason for motion problems I could think of when watching 24P content with RC enabled is when using a device that outputs 24P over 60Hz and doesn't do proper 3:2 pulldown. This will mess up RC pulldown detection and cause motion problems that are way worse than 3:2 pulldown judder.
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post #21109 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:38 AM
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You aren't alone. I see it too and can't get used to it either. And it's super-annoying when people tell us we're wrong when we're not.

Maybe they can't see it, which is understandable since we don't see things always the same (some people wear glasses, some don't, etc.), but that doesn't mean the problem is nonexistent. It's a real issue and we aren't the only ones so I wish people would stop telling us that we're wrong or will get used to it after a while because that's not a very good answer. I mean, some people have "gotten used to" heavy soap opera effects with motion setting set to max after a while too (you see it in their YouTube videos and it's maddening) and that's not the way the movies are supposed to look. It makes the films look like you're standing around on the set watching it get made.

Not sure the other message accused you of lying. Regardless of people's perceptions of motion, RC on for 24p content means that no processing is added and the source material is displayed as intended. Turning RC off for this content will add processing. If that looks better to some, that's awesome.

I, for example, can still see significant OLED-based stutter with RC off, it does not improve the stutter by any significant margin in comparison to RC on. Thus, I keep it on to avoid the pulldown judder and be closer to the source material.
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post #21110 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:47 AM
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The only reason for motion problems I could think of when watching 24P content with RC enabled is when using a device that outputs 24P over 60Hz and doesn't do proper 3:2 pulldown. This will mess up RC pulldown detection and cause motion problems that are way worse than 3:2 pulldown judder.
That's what I thought too, at first, and even switched out Blu-ray players and it was still happening. Was also still happening through the built-in Netflix app on the TV.
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post #21111 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 09:49 AM
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Stutter on OLEDs can be scientifically explained.
Explain it then.
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post #21112 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 10:01 AM
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Not sure the other message accused you of lying. Regardless of people's perceptions of motion, RC on for 24p content means that no processing is added and the source material is displayed as intended. Turning RC off for this content will add processing. If that looks better to some, that's awesome.

I, for example, can still see significant OLED-based stutter with RC off, it does not improve the stutter by any significant margin in comparison to RC on. Thus, I keep it on to avoid the pulldown judder and be closer to the source material.
Well when someone says "what you've described is completely false" and "if you never had an LG TV in the past 10 years" (implying I don't even own an LG) I take offense to that. And RC on may help (or is supposed to anyway) avoid pulldown judder. I'm saying LG bungled something in the way RC works (at least on the B6) because it makes things worse and not better. It just does something weird, like its lagging periodically or something, it's hard to explain. I haven't tried newer LGs, but with that bad experience I'm kind of scared to.
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post #21113 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 10:03 AM
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The only reason for motion problems I could think of when watching 24P content with RC enabled is when using a device that outputs 24P over 60Hz and doesn't do proper 3:2 pulldown. This will mess up RC pulldown detection and cause motion problems that are way worse than 3:2 pulldown judder.
The issue is present in the built in Netflix app too, so the device is not the problem. Honestly the biggest problem here is the fact that LG will not let users disable this setting in all modes, it is fine that it exists and it is fine that it comes enabled by default, but not being able to turn it off in some profiles is just ridiculous. That is why i called LG and that is why i think everyone affected by the issue should also call, they need to be aware that there are many of us who want this to change so that they can consider changing it in the next firmware.
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I'm crying my tv is destroyed....freaking LG , let us downgrade if we want

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post #21115 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 10:23 AM
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Explain it then.

He is stating the Jarring effect caused by static frame time during motion sequence which causes stutter mostly seen at that 24fps rate, slightly less at 60fps. It is different from Judder. Look for long panning shots.
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He is stating the Jarring effect caused by static frame time during motion sequence which causes stutter mostly seen at that 24fps rate, slightly less at 60fps. It is different from Judder. Look for long panning shots.
I leave TruMotion disabled (motion interpolation) for all modes, which I know is not the same thing as Real Cinema, but it can cause issues when both are enabled, at least in my experience. I have an older LG LCD for the downstairs HTS and leave RC enabled for blu-ray movies and disabled for local Comcast HDTV (broadcast stations only, no streaming). However, on that LG, Real Cinema is grayed out for the mode I use. No issues that I've seen.

On the C8 upstairs, Real Cinema is enabled on all of the inputs. Guess I'll just have to go back and very carefully watch. If it's there, it's not been noticeable on any source I've viewed.

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post #21117 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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Don't call me a liar.
No need for the abuse. Let's keep it technical please.

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post #21118 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 11:00 AM
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I leave TruMotion disabled (motion interpolation) for all modes, which I know is not the same thing as Real Cinema, but it can cause issues when both are enabled, at least in my experience. I have an older LG LCD for the downstairs HTS and leave RC enabled for blu-ray movies and disabled for local Comcast HDTV (broadcast stations only, no streaming). However, on that LG, Real Cinema is grayed out for the mode I use. No issues that I've seen.

On the C8 upstairs, Real Cinema is enabled on all of the inputs. Guess I'll just have to go back and very carefully watch. If it's there, it's not been noticeable on any source I've viewed.

There is a video on youtube you can search for 24 fps stutter on OLED.


Now that we have some input, just wondering maybe a smooth multiple of 24 to 60 fps of 2.5 might cause an issue in the US, do they see it in the European models?
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post #21119 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by hamad138 View Post
Updated to the new 5.xx.xx firmware from 4.15.

Worst decision I have ever made.
Which of the changes are causing you problems? If you could explain, maybe people here can help you.

The main change was the fix for the near-black chrominance overshoot and near-black quantisation which many people wanted for a very long time. Many users here even installed the early Engineering firmwares to get the fix earlier. There are also many other minor fixes such as Amazon echo/Google Assistant bugs fixed.

Quote:
LG also toned down upscaling performance in this patch, it's terrible it's like I am watching another TV!
Again, please describe what you are seeing, why it's a problem, and people may be able to offer advice. Or, read the 6 months' worth of posts when people had the Engineering firmwares and were trying different settings. Because the fix involves fundamentally changing how the TV produces the dark near-black colours, tweaks to the picture settings may be required. (But the upscaling performance wasn't changed)

That firmware was released nearly two months ago now, I don't remember reading any reports of problems with upscaling at all. It was known that you couldn't roll back from 5.xx since early May, hundreds of posts here on that topic :-)
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_______________
Denon AVR-X4200W, Arcam Alpha 8P; 5.1.4 setup: Mission 702e, M7C1i, 77DS, 731. Rel T5 Sub. Monitor Audio CT165 4 Tops | LG OLED55C8PLA TV | Samsung UBD-K8500 UHD Blu-Ray

HDMI 2.0 4K modes | Dolby & DTS core+outer audio tracks on (UHD) Blu-Rays | Hello to Jason Isaacs
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post #21120 of 21701 Old 09-18-2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanman View Post
There is a video on youtube you can search for 24 fps stutter on OLED.


Now that we have some input, just wondering maybe a smooth multiple of 24 to 60 fps of 2.5 might cause an issue in the US, do they see it in the European models?
I'll have to search for that video to check it out. I'm not a YouTuber so it may take awhile.

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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