LG 2018 TV Reviewers Workshop - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
^Do the super UHD LCDs (not WOLEDs) even utilize white subpixels? I don't believe they do...
The Super UHDs have never utilized WRGB, only some of the lower end sets.

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post #32 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by XBR11 View Post
How will the 2018 LGs effect pro calibration

Not saying that any ordinary consumers will be able to do their own, but I'm talking about the assertion that a calibration will take only take minutes instead of hours. And will it be possible for a pro to do a calibration via the web? If I could get a pro calibration via the web for $100 say and it was the exact same as an in person calibration for $500, well heck yeah! It would be a major selling point for the 2018 LGs.
It will take minutes if you want a BB quality calibration. Expect hours if you want something like I offer. LUT calibration has been around for what.... a decade? AutoCal isn’t anything revolutionary. It’s evolutionary. I hope more manufacturers offer this level of access to their products.
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post #33 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 08:24 AM
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also doing the really crazy options in Autocal (like letting the screen cool for 5 sec before another pattern/reader) adds interesting problems for the professionals. Do you want to hang out with D-nice for 10 hours? (He is a really nice guy. So maybe that is a bonus.) Of course improvements from this might be super minor.

As a non-professional with the right equipment. I'll be doing all the crazy stuff I have to justify spending money on all this stuff ^_^
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post #34 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 08:33 AM
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@D-Nice - I obviously misunderstood what Scott meant. Sorry about that.

Ps - some of my earlier posts in this thread seem to be missing. Must be a St Patrick's day phenomenon.

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post #35 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by XBR11 View Post
How will the 2018 LGs effect pro calibration

Not saying that any ordinary consumers will be able to do their own, but I'm talking about the assertion that a calibration will take only take minutes instead of hours...
That's actually a big part of what the feature is for: so consumers can do it on their own. It's a convenience feature that will let a videophile who either has or is willing to purchase the necessary meter/software to do a "good enough" calibration with minimal fuss. That's not the same thing you're going to be paying a D-Nice or a Chad B. for. A professional calibrator isn't going to come to your house, run an autocal procedure and call it a day. You're not paying them to get you 85-90% of the way to "reference".

The real revelation here for the 2018's is gaining access to the internal 3D LUTS via Calman's interface. That's awesome-sauce.
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post #36 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 09:53 AM
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But will the professional one really be better? There are some tricks they will learn (that could also be added to the software). It isn't like any human is going to tweak the gillions of LUTs. This also isn't "magic" like when detailing with audio. This science -meters, patterns, readings, etc.

yes, the pros will have better meters which should make a diff. There still will be value to having them come even if the software is doing all the work. It could also be that Autocal still needs work I recall disliking what autocal did on my VT50/VT60s and manually doing it was better. That said, no person is doing 35k points for the LUT. Most of the time a calibrator is spending is on is the multi point whiteblanace and CMS stuff without touching the LUT (Of course these LG 2018 models are the first TVs that allow hardware access to the LUT.)
At some point the calibrators job will go away if the software is good enough. (On the computer side of things it is all software for monitor calibration.) Are we there now for 2018 for LG OLEDs? We'll see soon.
Even without spending $6,000 on a meter. Getting the stuff needed to calibrate cost MUCH more than just having a calibrator fly in, use their stuff and chat with you over tea. There may (or may not) be some value to letting the TV be used for a bit before calibration too. So having someone come after some use vs the store doing it could still be a plus.
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We're now offering our clients the full 21 point 4K HDR10 & Dolby Vision, 10bit, EOTF calibration
Order your TV fully tested for quality assurance, panel stabilization & top professional calibration in FHD & UHD HDR $600
Value Electronics has some balls to charge that much for it. If almost all of it is autocal and done in the store.... *sigh*
Save some money, have the calibrator come to your home after some burn in time, and pay less....
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post #37 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 11:33 AM
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Just because the mastering display is capable of 4000 nits for specular highlights does not mean the colorists use the max capabilities. The vast majority of HDR/DV max out below 1,000 nits for specular highlights regardless of the capabilities of the mastering display. If I recall correctly Ted has a chart floating around that shows peak light in HDR/DV movies.
Looking at static metadata doesn't tell the full story. Sometimes it is not set correctly or just set to some common set of parameters used for all titles from the same studio. For anyone interested in what's actually in the movie content itself, this thread has some good examples:


HDR UHD Bluray Waveform Analysis

Video games (at least on consoles) are not able to set metadata at all because we don't have any APIs to do it - it just comes out as all zero's which makes many TVs produce unusually dim images compared to movies with correct metadata. There are some ways to set it on PC games but for real-time/dynamically generated content, static metadata is of limited use anyway. Some real-world game examples showing 10,000 nits in use:

HDR Games mastering levels?

It's been reported that 2018 models will allow use LG's Dynamic Tone Mapping (previously known as Active HDR) in game mode. Hopefully it won't add too much input lag and alleviate the complaints in this thread:

How to downgrade firmware on LG C6 after newest update made HDR game mode dim?
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post #38 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 11:53 AM
 
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FWIW HDMI 2.0's 18 gbps data pipe, by virtue of being able to handle 4K60 4:4:4 in 8-bit (SDR), can also pass 4K120 4:2:0 in 8-bit (SDR), or 4K 96hz 4:2:0 HDR10.

96hz is a huge step up from 60hz, as anyone who's used an Oculus Rift or Vive (90hz / fps) vs a GearVR (60hz / fps) will tell you. Or any competitive PC gamer.

I'd much rather play an HDR game at 4K96 in 4:2:0 than 4K60 HDR10 in 4:2:2. Or any SDR game at 4K 120hz.

It's possible that a firmware update to a 4K TV that can accept 1080p 120hz would be able to accept 4K 120hz by dropping to 4:2:0. 4:2:0, being a standard mode provided by HDMI 2.0 officially. If any LG engineers are reading this and want to sell this TV on the basis of 120hz support, why not add that as a firmware update? It may be possible to override EDID and force it from a PC or EDID spoofing box (HD Fury?)
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post #39 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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No words on black frame insertion mode? No mention of possible eARC, VRR or QMS future firmware implementation that's been declared as possible even for 18Gbps HDMI connections?
We were told the 2018 OLEDs have black-frame insertion. There was no mention of eARC, VRR, or QMS.
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post #40 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
We were told the 2018 OLEDs have black-frame insertion. There was no mention of eARC, VRR, or QMS.
It will be interesting to see if there is any noticeable reduction in brightness when "Motion Pro" is engaged (that is LG's BFI)

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post #41 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 01:13 PM
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@Scott :
Did they say anything about how far they're with the AutoCal version for the LG 2018 models? Is it still in alpha?
According to info back at the german LG roadshow event in February they were talking about the beta version releasing in May/June.

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No words on black frame insertion mode? No mention of possible eARC, VRR or QMS future firmware implementation that's been declared as possible even for 18Gbps HDMI connections?
They call BFI Motion Pro. There's a simple on/off slider in the TruMotion settings.

Yeah, someone should ask LG if they're planning to catch up to Samsung and add VRR at least.

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post #42 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 01:33 PM
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I don't quite understand what that photo is showing. I see green and red subpixels, but the "blue" ones look gray, and I see no white subpixel. Exactly what is it supposed to be showing?
This picture was supposedly a subpixel zoom of a 2018 WOLED posted by HDTVTEST after CES (if memory serves).

Whatever color is being displayed, green and red subpixels are strongly-illuminated, so their size and modified outline are clearly visible.

The subpixel neighboring red is weakly illuminated and so is probably white but could possibly also be blue.

And whichever color, white or blue, corresponds to that third subpixel, the 4th darkened subpixel corresponds to whichever color is missing (blue if 3rd subpixel is white, white if 3rd subpixel is blue).

My suspicion is that this picture was taken from an area of the screen displaying yellow, but only HDTVTEST knows for sure...

At any rate, it woukd be good to confirm these changes to subpixel design/size in 2018 WOLEDs once they are available in the wild (and then ask LG to explain what impact these changes have on image quality and native whitepoint).
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post #43 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 01:42 PM
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The source is on the pic you posted. It's the french site les numériques.

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post #44 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dave1812dave View Post
It will be interesting to see if there is any noticeable reduction in brightness when "Motion Pro" is engaged (that is LG's BFI)
Of course there is a reduction in brightness - the only question is whether LG automatically compensates for this if calibration headroom allows (or disables BFI when peak brightness has been calibrated to a level that woukd result in visible dimming).

If you want 50% BFI, your peak brightness cannot be calibrated to more than 50% of native peak brighness in order to activate 50% BFI with the possibility of brightness compensation (by internally doubling lumens output for the time the black frame is not active).

I'm hoping LG has been smarter in their BFI implementation than most LED/LCD implementations of the past - only being able to activate BFI to levels that can be brightness-compensated based on alibration settings would be a better approach.

So BFI can be more extensively activated or typical dark-room settings than can be for typical bright-room settings. This would mean the image your eyeballs receive is always the same effective brightness, just continuous without BFI and pulsed (along with corresponding imrovements in persistace-based motion blur) with BFI...
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post #45 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 01:47 PM
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Of course there is a reduction in brightness - the only question is whether LG automatically compensates for this if calibration headroom allows (or disables BFI when peak brightness has been calibrated to a level that woukd result in visible dimming).

If you want 50% BFI, your peak brightness cannot be calibrated to more than 50% of native peak brighness in order to activate 50% BFI with the possibility of brightness compensation (by internally doubling lumens output for the time the black frame is not active).

I'm hoping LG has been smarter in their BFI implementation than most LED/LCD implementations of the past - only being able to activate BFI to levels that can be brightness-compensated based on alibration settings would be a better approach.

So BFI can be more extensively activated or typical dark-room settings than can be for typical bright-room settings. This would mean the image your eyeballs receive is always the same effective brightness, just continuous without BFI and pulsed (along with corresponding imrovements in persistace-based motion blur) with BFI...
It doesn't appear that there are any adjustments to Motion Pro. It's just a toggle.

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post #46 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 01:55 PM
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We should be happy that LG at least started implementing it AT ALL.
There's always room for improvement, of course.

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post #47 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dave1812dave View Post
It doesn't appear that there are any adjustments to Motion Pro. It's just a toggle.
The two questions are:

1/ does it automatically compensate lumens output to remain constant or does a noticably dimmer image rssult when it is activated?

2/ if calibration is set for peak lumens levels that cannot be maintained when BFI is activated, is BFI disable/greyed-out until lumens output is reduced or is it always able to be toggled-on, regardless of whether this results in a noticably dimmer image or not?
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post #48 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The two questions are:

1/ does it automatically compensate lumens output to remain constant or does a noticably dimmer image rssult when it is activated?
It is noticeably dimmer

Quote:
2/ if calibration is set for peak lumens levels that cannot be maintained when BFI is activated, is BFI disable/greyed-out until lumens output is reduced or is it always able to be toggled-on, regardless of whether this results in a noticably dimmer image or not?
Its always available.
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post #49 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
It is noticeably dimmer

Its always available.
Thanks - so LG went with the same-ol, same-ol...

How fine is the control over BFI %? Is it 0%, 50% only or do they also support 25% and possibly 75%?
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post #50 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 04:35 PM
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Was the 2018 LG OLED handling of posterization (color banding, especially on lower quality sources) noticeably better than the 2017s? How did it compare to the Sony A1E? Please include such a comparison in the 2018 LG OLED review.

Thanks for the great information, as always!
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post #51 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 05:32 PM
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Since we have a 2018 C8/E8 Owner's thread started maybe we can consolidate owner impressions over there

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Thanks - so LG went with the same-ol, same-ol...

How fine is the control over BFI %? Is it 0%, 50% only or do they also support 25% and possibly 75%?
Steve Withers/AVForums is speculating BFI is set up the same way as it is on the Panasonic OLEDs as his theory is they're helping out LG.

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post #53 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 05:38 PM
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Thanks - so LG went with the same-ol, same-ol...
Of course, they need to give you (another) reason to upgrade next year (or the year after).
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post #54 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 05:59 PM
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Thanks - so LG went with the same-ol, same-ol...

How fine is the control over BFI %? Is it 0%, 50% only or do they also support 25% and possibly 75%?
Haven’t gotten that far with it. I just turned it on with the default ISF Expert Dark Room settings and the luminance dropped by 50%.... eyeballing it.
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post #55 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 06:08 PM
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Did you get a 2018 lg oled ahead of everyone else?

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post #56 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 06:13 PM
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Did you get a 2018 lg oled ahead of everyone else?
Got mine yesterday. As of now it is a candidate to replace my 65C7P.
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post #57 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 06:19 PM
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LG 2018 TV Reviewers Workshoave p

I obviously missed that. What model did you get?

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post #58 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 06:22 PM
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post #59 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 06:49 PM
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If you don't mind me asking, is there something lacking in your 2017 LG OLED C7P that would cause you to want to replace it?

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post #60 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 07:21 PM
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If you don't mind me asking, is there something lacking in your 2017 LG OLED C7P that would cause you to want to replace it?
No. It’s my job to get and evaluate the latest and greatest.
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