LG 2018 TV Reviewers Workshop - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 102 Old 03-17-2018, 08:42 PM
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I suspect BFI will be one of those things you try once on every source, decide you don't like, and finally turn off and forget about.
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post #62 of 102 Old 03-18-2018, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by barth2 View Post
I suspect BFI will be one of those things you try once on every source, decide you don't like, and finally turn off and forget about.
I'm hoping it's useful for SDR content and hoping the alpha 9 processor will eliminate artifacts when using motion interpolation.

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post #63 of 102 Old 03-18-2018, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
Steve Withers/AVForums is speculating BFI is set up the same way as it is on the Panasonic OLEDs as his theory is they're helping out LG.
I live in the States, so obviously don't know much about the Panasonic OLEDs. However, I was curious as to how BFI work with those sets, if LG is indeed going that route.

I currently own a 65-inch LG B6, but was looking to maybe add a C8 after it was revealed at CES that they've included BFI (provided it works more effectively than it does on, say, the Sony A1).

I still own a mid-level Samsung F5300 plasma, and the fact that I can still watch 24p @ 96hz with film based content, is still a visual revelation to me. There's so much more detail in the motion resolution compared to my OLED. So, I am hoping the C8 helps replicate that same experience.

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Haven’t gotten that far with it. I just turned it on with the default ISF Expert Dark Room settings and the luminance dropped by 50%.... eyeballing it.
Brightness isn't as big of a concern to me. Nor is flicker. Though, I am curious to know your thoughts on the latter, as it was pretty well apparent on Sony's A1 when activated.

Also, do you have any way of measuring how many lines of motion resolution you get with BFI enabled? Is it only 650, or can it reach 1080? If it reaches 1080, I don't care if it dims the image 50% in luminance.
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post #64 of 102 Old 03-18-2018, 10:46 AM
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What is the difference between LG's BFI and Sony's BFI?
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post #65 of 102 Old 03-18-2018, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Yappadappadu View Post
Yeah, someone should ask LG if they're planning to catch up to Samsung and add VRR at least.
Yeah, I was asking about eARC, VRR or QMS because those are the technologies I understand can be implemented with current HDMI hardware available to companies.

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post #66 of 102 Old 03-18-2018, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TetraVaal View Post
Also, do you have any way of measuring how many lines of motion resolution you get with BFI enabled? Is it only 650, or can it reach 1080? If it reaches 1080, I don't care if it dims the image 50% in luminance.
Motion resolution results are bounded by the persistence of the image. Everything suggest they are still using 120Hz panels (8ms persistence) so it's impossible to improve it any more than doubling of the sample-and-hold results. To get above ~650 they need to figure out some way to drive the pixels at 240Hz or higher. That seems unlikely given what's currently possible with timing controllers, especially once you start hitting the high bandwidths of 4K, 8K, HDR, etc.

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What is the difference between LG's BFI and Sony's BFI?
Name of label in the menu?

With 60Hz content, there is only one type of BFI possible on a 120Hz panel. You alternate between black and video signal every other frame.
With 24Hz content, you can either flicker intensely by alternating image and black frames at 48Hz or you resort to some sort of 3:2 cadence which induces juddering. I think this is where the Sony and Panasonic BFI differs and LG can choose either approach.
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post #67 of 102 Old 03-18-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Motion resolution results are bounded by the persistence of the image. Everything suggest they are still using 120Hz panels (8ms persistence) so it's impossible to improve it any more than doubling of the sample-and-hold results. To get above ~650 they need to figure out some way to drive the pixels at 240Hz or higher. That seems unlikely given what's currently possible with timing controllers, especially once you start hitting the high bandwidths of 4K, 8K, HDR, etc.
True.

I probably overlooked the fact that plasmas have a better refresh rate.

I've never had a sample and hold display until I bought an OLED. Curious, have you seen the results of the 650 lines of motion in a sample and hold display with BFI? If so, did it look adequate enough to you?

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With 60Hz content, there is only one type of BFI possible on a 120Hz panel. You alternate between black and video signal every other frame.
With 24Hz content, you can either flicker intensely by alternating image and black frames at 48Hz or you resort to some sort of 3:2 cadence which induces juddering. I think this is where the Sony and Panasonic BFI differs and LG can choose either approach.
But isn't the point of BFI to help eliminate, or at least greatly reduce judder? It would seem pointless to incorporate BFI with 3:2 pulldown, if you're still going to have judder issues, right?

I guess I am a little confused on how this will work on an OLED. So, if I pop in a UHD blu-ray into my Oppo on an LG C8, and enable BFI, am I getting BFI at 48hz or 60hz? And, will it actually help in creating noticeable improvement in motion resolution?
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post #68 of 102 Old 03-18-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Motion resolution results are bounded by the persistence of the image. Everything suggest they are still using 120Hz panels (8ms persistence) so it's impossible to improve it any more than doubling of the sample-and-hold results. To get above ~650 they need to figure out some way to drive the pixels at 240Hz or higher. That seems unlikely given what's currently possible with timing controllers, especially once you start hitting the high bandwidths of 4K, 8K, HDR, etc.



Name of label in the menu?

With 60Hz content, there is only one type of BFI possible on a 120Hz panel. You alternate between black and video signal every other frame.
With 24Hz content, you can either flicker intensely by alternating image and black frames at 48Hz or you resort to some sort of 3:2 cadence which induces juddering. I think this is where the Sony and Panasonic BFI differs and LG can choose either approach.
Isn't rotating 48hz still going to introduce something similar to telecine judder, as the frames will not all be visible for the same period of time? Unless you adjust panel refresh rate to 96 hz, similar to plasmas doing 72 or 96 and 60hz LG LCDs doing 48hz with Real Cinema on.
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post #69 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 04:31 AM
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Most 120Hz sample-and-hold displays can also support lower refresh rates like 96Hz. On such a display you would repeat each frame twice followed by two frames of black. There would be no additional judder but pretty intense flickering from the low 48Hz effective refresh rate. This is what the Sony A1E does with 24p inputs. Motion resolution is improved since you've cut image persistence from 42ms to 21ms. The other approach would be to convert the 24p source to 60Hz just as if you set your disc player to 60Hz output. You then insert black frames every other frame just as for any other 60Hz source. You could do this on the Sony A1E as well by setting the disc player to 60Hz output. It will produce some juddering from the uneven 3:2 repeating pattern of the frames.

Is 650 lines of motion resolution enough? For movies, I don't think it matters much because the source has lots of motion blur to begin with. Just pause any movie during a high speed motion sequence and see for yourself. On 60Hz content with no inherent source blurring like video games, 650 lines is not enough. You will still see a lot of blurring on high speed motion compared to a CRT or Plasma but anything is a worthwhile improvement compared to ~300 lines of baseline motion resolution of a pure sample-and-hold display.

For those who didn't like OLED 24p motion without BFI, I don't think adding it is really going to improve anything with the current limitations. Supposedly they also improved their motion interpolation for 2018 (less artifacts) so maybe you can forget BFI and find some smoothing setting that you can live with.
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post #70 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
No mention of the new subpixel design for 2018, huh?
I can confirm there is a new subpixel design for 2018.
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post #71 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 10:08 AM
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Not saying that any ordinary consumers will be able to do their own, but I'm talking about the assertion that a calibration will take only take minutes instead of hours. And will it be possible for a pro to do a calibration via the web? If I could get a pro calibration via the web for $100 say and it was the exact same as an in person calibration for $500, well heck yeah! It would be a major selling point for the 2018 LGs.
If you do not have a meter hooked up to the TV you do not know where you are starting and have no idea where to go. That is hurtle number 1.
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post #72 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 10:55 AM
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Input lag tests on 65C8PUA:

SDR Game Mode: 21.1ms

SDR Technicolor/ISF Expert Bright Room/ISF Expert Dark Room with Real Cinema ON: 100.1ms

SDR Technicolor/ISF Expert Bright Room/ISF Expert Dark Room with Real Cinema OFF: 50ms

SDR Technicolor/ISF Expert Bright Room/ISF Expert Dark Room with BFI: 108.5ms

I’ll do HDR tonight hopefully.... turning my attention to the 65Q9FN that just came in.
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post #73 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I can confirm there is a new subpixel design for 2018.
Great - thanks. And at least from a preliminary perspective, does what you have seen seem more or less like this photo (larger red subpixel, 'J' shaped green subpixel)?
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post #74 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Great - thanks. And at least from a preliminary perspective, does what you have seen seem more or krss like this photo (larger ted subpixel, 'J' shaped green subpixel)?
Yes
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post #75 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Yes
Cool.

When you get a chance, there a a couple measurements this changed subpixel design should impact and I'd appreciate any effort you can put into measuring/confirming:

1/ Native Whitepoint (on Vivid) should have shifted (probably towards red / warm).

2/ Peak brightness should have increased (unless it has been throttled-back to the same level with a new ABL).

3/ Efficiency should have increased (meaning measuring power consumption at some reference like a 130 cd/m2 red field should show less power consumption on 2018s versus 2017s).

The fact that LG has not said anything about this new subpixel design makes me suspect all of the improvements that should result have been used to address weaknesses/problems (like burn-in on red) rather than to increase performance (like deliver higher peak brightness @ D65), but it should be possible to confirm the ~25% increased efficiency on red resulting from this increased red subpixel design...
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post #76 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 04:55 PM
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I don't know how anyone can use 60 Hz BFI like on the A1E. That flicker drives me bonkers.
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post #77 of 102 Old 03-19-2018, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Cool.

When you get a chance, there a a couple measurements this changed subpixel design should impact and I'd appreciate any effort you can put into measuring/confirming:

1/ Native Whitepoint (on Vivid) should have shifted (probably towards red / warm).

2/ Peak brightness should have increased (unless it has been throttled-back to the same level with a new ABL).

3/ Efficiency should have increased (meaning measuring power consumption at some reference like a 130 cd/m2 red field should show less power consumption on 2018s versus 2017s).

The fact that LG has not said anything about this new subpixel design makes me suspect all of the improvements that should result have been used to address weaknesses/problems (like burn-in on red) rather than to increase performance (like deliver higher peak brightness @ D65), but it should be possible to confirm the ~25% increased efficiency on red resulting from this increased red subpixel design...
My thoughts too. Double whammy on the war against burn in. Logo dimming and larger pixels = The best reason to buy a 2018 LG Oled. And if they have the banding issue under control...win win. I'll be sticking with my old 2016 cause...best tv ever made as we all know (3D). But if I had to settle for a 2D image only, 2018's would have my interest big time
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post #78 of 102 Old 03-20-2018, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I can confirm there is a new subpixel design for 2018.
Can you confirm that the vertical lines are gone on 5% grays?

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post #79 of 102 Old 03-20-2018, 08:11 AM
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Can you confirm that the vertical lines are gone on 5% grays?
I don't think anyone expects fundamental improvements on this for 2018 models.

D-Nice posted a picture here. Note he says it looks better in person.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post55874038
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post #80 of 102 Old 03-20-2018, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JasonHa View Post
I don't think anyone expects fundamental improvements on this for 2018 models.

D-Nice posted a picture here. Note he says it looks better in person.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post55874038
Crap same as last year. Glad he said it looks better in person looks like panel lottery all over again..

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post #81 of 102 Old 03-20-2018, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JasonHa View Post
I don't think anyone expects fundamental improvements on this for 2018 models.

D-Nice posted a picture here. Note he says it looks better in person.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post55874038
Banding does not look bad. But overall...does not look very clean.
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post #82 of 102 Old 03-20-2018, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JasonHa View Post
I don't think anyone expects fundamental improvements on this for 2018 models.

D-Nice posted a picture here. Note he says it looks better in person.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post55874038
How about color uniformity?
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post #83 of 102 Old 03-20-2018, 12:39 PM
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Interesting that they shift the white point away from D65 in the Technicolor Expert mode. I wonder if it's the same with the 2017 models.
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post #84 of 102 Old 03-22-2018, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
I'm hoping it's useful for SDR content and hoping the alpha 9 processor will eliminate artifacts when using motion interpolation.
Many LCD TVs interpolate from 24p to 120p then use BFI to reduce persistence further (240hz), but IMO it would be better to simply interpolate to 240hz to begin with.

The only way to fix poor quality interpolation is better quality interpolation, not BFI IMO. If anything BFI would make interpolation artifacts more visible, since they would be clearer.
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post #85 of 102 Old 03-22-2018, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Input lag tests on 65C8PUA:

SDR Game Mode: 21.1ms
Here's my question. If you feed the TV a 1080p 120hz input from a PC, like the 2017s will already display, can you turn BFI on?
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post #86 of 102 Old 03-23-2018, 07:04 PM
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"However, the company is looking at the new AV1 video codec from the Alliance for Open Media. Of course, Netflix already uses H.265/HEVC and VP9 for HDR content, but AV1 could offer even more efficiency, and it’s royalty-free."

AV1 hardware support will be the next thing to wait for after everyone has HDMI 2.1 and ATSC 3.0 tuners... lol, it never ends... or just forget about it and accept that you'll need an external box/dongle within a few years no matter when you buy.
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Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post
"However, the company is looking at the new AV1 video codec from the Alliance for Open Media. Of course, Netflix already uses H.265/HEVC and VP9 for HDR content, but AV1 could offer even more efficiency, and it’s royalty-free."

AV1 hardware support will be the next thing to wait for after everyone has HDMI 2.1 and ATSC 3.0 tuners... lol, it never ends... or just forget about it and accept that you'll need an external box/dongle within a few years no matter when you buy.
Wait till:

2019 - HDMI 2.1!

2020 - Top Emission and HDMI 2.1 without the bugs!

2021 - LG's new manufacturing plant!

2022 - New codec for higher quality streams!

2023 - Rec 2020!

And on it goes...
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post #88 of 102 Old 03-23-2018, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jin-X View Post
Wait till:

2019 - HDMI 2.1!

2020 - Top Emission and HDMI 2.1 without the bugs!

2021 - LG's new manufacturing plant!

2022 - New codec for higher quality streams!

2023 - Rec 2020!

And on it goes...
Agreed, thought there are certain plateaus.

2016 was a plateau year for SDR OLED with some look-ahead HDR capability.

2018 is looking like it just might be a plateau yeat for HDR (as well as affordable 77").
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post #89 of 102 Old 03-28-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Agreed, thought there are certain plateaus.

2016 was a plateau year for SDR OLED with some look-ahead HDR capability.

2018 is looking like it just might be a plateau yeat for HDR (as well as affordable 77").
Oh, don't forget HDMI 3.0, I know that I have seen an article that was by ISF, more like a slide show presentation pdf where they mentioned HDMI 3.0.
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post #90 of 102 Old 03-28-2018, 03:11 PM
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No. It’s my job to get and evaluate the latest and greatest.
So do you purchase this TV yourself or it is sent to you by the manufacturer?
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