LG 2018 TV Reviewers Workshop - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 102 Old 03-28-2018, 06:08 PM
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So do you purchase this TV yourself or it is sent to you by the manufacturer?
I buy. Best way to be indenpendent from everyone.
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post #92 of 102 Old 03-29-2018, 06:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Most 120Hz sample-and-hold displays can also support lower refresh rates like 96Hz. On such a display you would repeat each frame twice followed by two frames of black. There would be no additional judder but pretty intense flickering from the low 48Hz effective refresh rate. This is what the Sony A1E does with 24p inputs. Motion resolution is improved since you've cut image persistence from 42ms to 21ms. The other approach would be to convert the 24p source to 60Hz just as if you set your disc player to 60Hz output. You then insert black frames every other frame just as for any other 60Hz source. You could do this on the Sony A1E as well by setting the disc player to 60Hz output. It will produce some juddering from the uneven 3:2 repeating pattern of the frames.

Is 650 lines of motion resolution enough? For movies, I don't think it matters much because the source has lots of motion blur to begin with. Just pause any movie during a high speed motion sequence and see for yourself. On 60Hz content with no inherent source blurring like video games, 650 lines is not enough. You will still see a lot of blurring on high speed motion compared to a CRT or Plasma but anything is a worthwhile improvement compared to ~300 lines of baseline motion resolution of a pure sample-and-hold display.

For those who didn't like OLED 24p motion without BFI, I don't think adding it is really going to improve anything with the current limitations. Supposedly they also improved their motion interpolation for 2018 (less artifacts) so maybe you can forget BFI and find some smoothing setting that you can live with.
Good post.

This is why I always think to myself: UHD is pointless unless watching screenshots, since motion blur reduces motion resolution to below 720p levels, unless you turn on frame interpolation and even then, it's probably still less than 1080p. 1080p 120hz native would look sharper most of the time than UHD 60 fps let alone UHD at 24 fps.

Most movies have static cameras most of the time, filming people who are in focus and the centerpiece of attention, but ironically they are the least clear since they move.

So the whole image ends up blurry: out of focus parts (backgrounds) are inherently blurred but static, in focus is blurred from movement. You can't win. This is why UHD demos on TVs often show static content or at least very slowly moving.

BFI is also less effective unless you use FI as well. Actually what one needs to do is clean up the motion blur baked into 24p material to match the final persistence, whether that's the equivalent to 60hz or 120hz or 240hz effective. But removing motion blur is a quote "hard problem" according to researchers in the field. AI and machine learning will certainly keep improving things, I think frame interpolation is heading this way instead of naive Eulerian methods which have known artifacts. I'm interested in seeing what FI looks like on the latest TVs and projectors.

I find it rather sad that the best tool that exists to improve the clarity of film and television content, doesn't merit a shootout to evaluate which vendors have the best implementations.

BFI'ing un-interpolated low framerate content is just going to make judder stick out more like it does at the movies.
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post #93 of 102 Old 03-29-2018, 06:50 AM
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One word, acclimation. The brain is an amazing organ. It also helps that it is already inherently more difficult to focus on items that are in motion (YMMV as always) than those which are static.
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post #94 of 102 Old 03-29-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I buy. Best way to be indenpendent from everyone.
Yep, this guy is not biased.....he can not be bought Between you and Chad B, you two have the best trained eye's in the world and your right here on this forum. I mean there are 7 billion people on this planet and you two are easily in the top 10 of your field, if not the top five, if not the best. That's pretty fricking cool !

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post #95 of 102 Old 03-29-2018, 07:12 PM
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Keep in mind that the motion resolution metric is for a specific motion speed - measured in pixels/sec scrolling past a single point on the screen. It only applies to that specific pattern from the FPD Benchmark disc that most reviewers use. As the speed of motion drops, the motion resolution increases. So you're not going to see motion resolution as low as 300 unless the motion speed exceeds that used in that benchmark. This is why the poor motion resolution of both LCD/OLED is tolerable today - outside of gaming and some sports, most directors avoid high speed camera motion entirely or blur it intentionally.

By the way, according to the BFI brightness loss results that D-Nice posted (40% loss of brightness), the LG uses a 3:2 ratio of video-frame:black-frame when displaying 24p content. So they don't seem to support 96Hz as I speculated above which would result in 50% brightness loss. It's displayed at 120Hz with each original 24p frame repeated either 3 times, followed by 2 black frames or repeated 5 times when BFI is disabled. I suppose they could have also offered a 2:3 ratio with a 60% brightness loss or 1:4 with 80% loss but there seem to be no user controls to change it. For 60p content, we're stuck with 50% brightness loss since there is only a single alternating black 1:1 ratio possible on a 120Hz panel.

Considering it took LG five years to even add simple BFI, I'm not expecting any breakthroughs in this area any time soon. Sony/Panasonic care more about the issue but are stuck with whatever signals the LG provided panels can support.
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post #96 of 102 Old 03-29-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Yep, this guy is not biased.....he can not be bought Between you and Chad B, you two have the best trained eye's in the world and your right here on this forum. I mean there are 7 billion people on this planet and you two are easily in the top 10 of your field, if not the top five, if not the best. That's pretty fricking cool !
Oh if only one of those two would come out to my area lol!
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post #97 of 102 Old 03-29-2018, 11:12 PM
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Oh if only one of those two would come out to my area lol!
Chad B has made it all the way out to where I'm at and it seems to me he's been through the southwest before.
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post #98 of 102 Old 03-29-2018, 11:13 PM
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I'm game if he comes to El Paso, problem is I dont think this area would give him more customers beyond myself.
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post #99 of 102 Old 03-30-2018, 06:34 AM
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^^^ You have to sell 4 other guys, I remember chad saying 5 guys or more in one area, he is there If your pockets are deep, you could always make him an offer he can not refuse....lol
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post #100 of 102 Old 03-30-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Yep, this guy is not biased.....he can not be bought Between you and Chad B, you two have the best trained eye's in the world and your right here on this forum. I mean there are 7 billion people on this planet and you two are easily in the top 10 of your field, if not the top five, if not the best. That's pretty fricking cool !
Was a pleasure watching D-nice calibrate my lg 2017 b7p oled. I saw major improvements post cal in every picture mode. If I had to choose between an uncalibrated 65 inch vs 55 inch calibrated, Id take the later everytime tbh.
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post #101 of 102 Old 04-08-2018, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
By the way, according to the BFI brightness loss results that D-Nice posted (40% loss of brightness), the LG uses a 3:2 ratio of video-frame:black-frame when displaying 24p content. So they don't seem to support 96Hz as I speculated above which would result in 50% brightness loss. It's displayed at 120Hz with each original 24p frame repeated either 3 times, followed by 2 black frames or repeated 5 times when BFI is disabled. I suppose they could have also offered a 2:3 ratio with a 60% brightness loss or 1:4 with 80% loss but there seem to be no user controls to change it. For 60p content, we're stuck with 50% brightness loss since there is only a single alternating black 1:1 ratio possible on a 120Hz panel.
Was finally able to check out a 2018 LG model this weekend and have to make a correction to my statement above. When BFI is enabled with 24p content, the LG actually does something different. It converts the video to 60p using 3:2 telecine. It then inserts black frames every other 120Hz frame. So persistence is 8ms but at the cost of 3:2 judder. Upside is that 60Hz flicker is substantially less distracting than the 48Hz flicker you will find on the A1E when using BFI with 24p content. Of course with the A1E you could also achieve the same results as LG by setting your disc player to 60p output. I suspect this is also why one of the C8 owners was complaining about BFI flicker with 25p content, as this would flicker at 50Hz instead of 60Hz.

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post #102 of 102 Old 02-28-2019, 10:20 AM
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Cool 10 bit

"Update: I previously reported that all 2018 Super UHD TVs use true 10-bit LCD panels, which we were told at the briefing. However, LG subsequently informed me that was not correct; all 2018 Super UHD TVs use 8-bit panels with dithering, even the flagship SK9500. LG added that a new process makes the output visually indistinguishable from a 10-bit panel."


Display specification website has it as a 10 bit panel without frc . I also had a live chat with lg technical suport and they told me that previous models were 8+frc , but 2018 super uhd models as the sk8000 sk8500(9000 u.s version ) and sk8500 are 10 bit . So, who ia wrong here and how can we test it .
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